Source code for RV9 or WM9?

[temporance]

Is anyone working on opensource decoders (or encoders) for WM9 and/or RV9?

OK, I know they're so-called "closed" formats, but so was MS-MPEG4 (aka DivX 3), and source code for decoding that format has been in FFMPEG for ages.

Does anyone know where the FFMPEG sourcecode for MS-MPEG4 decoding/encoding came from?

TIA

[jcsston]

Originally posted by temporance
Is anyone working on opensource decoders (or encoders) for WM9 and/or RV9?

OK, I know they're so-called "closed" formats, but so was MS-MPEG4 (aka DivX 3), and source code for decoding that format has been in FFMPEG for ages.

Does anyone know where the FFMPEG sourcecode for MS-MPEG4 decoding/encoding came from?

TIA
MPEG-4 is not a closed source video compression standard. You have many different encoders and decoders because the specs are public (you have to pay for them though).

[temporance]

I'm talking about MS-MPEG4 which, despite the name is only losely related to true, and open, MPEG-4.

MS-MPEG4 is one example of a closed format for which we now have open-source code. If it was somehow possible to write an open source codec compatible with closed format MS-MPEG4, then it should be possible to write open source versions of the latest closed formats.

Roll on open-WMV9 and open-RV9!! (or perhaps GWMV9 and GRV9 if the GPL was used!).

[Blight]

temporance:
WMV is a closed format, in the ASF days, microsoft threatened to sue Avery Lee (author of VDub) for just parsing the ASF Wrapper, let alone the WMV video format.

[temporance]

Originally posted by Blight
WMV is a closed format, in the ASF days, microsoft threatened to sue Avery Lee (author of VDub) for just parsing the ASF Wrapper, let alone the WMV video format. ASF may be more sensitive, as it's losely related to encrytion, streaming etc. Also, Avery Lee lives in the USA and released a binary, making him more vulnerable to such threats. I'm certain ASF parsing code is available in an open source project somewhere on the net today - I'm just asking if similar open-source code yet exists for modern proprietary video codecs.

[Sirber]

RV9 is closed source and will stay in that state.

[BoNz1]

Originally posted by temporance
I'm certain ASF parsing code is available in an open source project somewhere on the net today

It is still there in virtualdub, it's just commented. So the builds you get on sf don't have it. But if you download the source, uncomment and build then it works. As for codecs like RV9 and WMV9 getting open source decoders, I sort of doubt this will happen at least for RV9. It is probably easier just to make wrappers for the dlls. Maybe one day someone will create a nicer solution in libavcodec. As for WMV9, probably someone will code a decoder for libavcodec. I believe that they can decode WMV7 & 8.

[temporance]

"RV9 is closed source and will stay in that state."

You could have said that about DivX3 and MS-MPEG4 in the early days. Now, without MS releasing the source (AFAIK), we have decoder source code for this format. Also, CSS was always intended to remain closed source - and look what happened to that when someone had the motivation to write their own decryption.

IMHO, it's just a matter of time before someone releases "open-rv9"... and for the majority of the people on this forum that would be no bad thing! IMHO, it would help Real if there was an "open-rv9" as it would encourage adoption of their format, and, just as xvid and divx have competed in MPEG-4 development, a competition makes for better encoders!

[Sirber]

you can't compare DivX3 and RV9. DIVX3 is a 5 years old codec, RV9 is the main product of Real Networks. The right comparison would be:

on2 VP6 is closed source
WMV9 is closed source
RV9 is closed source
DIVX is closed source

XviD is opensource
H.264 is opensource

[S_O]

@Sirber:
Also DivX is closed-source it uses a standard (MPEG-4), and there are also open-source decoder for this standards like libavcodec or XviD.
For MS-MPEG 1/2/3 and WMV7 there is a working open-source decoder, the WMV8 decoder from libavcodec doesn´t work correctly.

Also there is a up-to-date format with open-source decoder: Sorenson 3. ffmpeg has decoder source for it, also I don´t if it´s working.
Also for RealVideo1/RealAudio1/RealAudio2 there is a open-source decoder (even encoder for RV1). Real don´t need to make their codec open-source, but maybe they could make a standard document like the ISO-docs that other people can create their own encoder/decoder compatible to RealVideo.
Is there any good reason why don´t they do that? They can even get licensing fees for commercial applications. Also Ahead saw this: What is Nero´s HE-AAC without common players supprting it? Also there are open specs they published their SBR-Decoder in FAAD2 under the GPL.
AC3 is one of the most used audio formats (Cinema, DVD), Dolby doesn´t offer the source of their encoder/decoder, but the full specification is downloadable from the official site for free. So everyone can create it´s own implementation. Of course, the technologie is patented and you ahve to pay Dolby.

So why isn´t Real opening it´s format? Real also isn´t the "you-cannot-convert-it"-format anymore since Tinra. Why doesn´t Real want other implementations of their standard?

[Sirber]

Also for RealVideo1/RealAudio1/RealAudio2This is old stuff :) RV_62, RV8 and RV9 aren't avalible, also RealAudio 3 to 8.5 arent.

So why isn´t Real opening it´s format? Real also isn´t the "you-cannot-convert-it"-format anymore since Tinra. Why doesn´t Real want other implementations of their standard?This I can't answer. From what I know, MPEG team developped MPEG4 standarts, and didn't developped a codec. Other compagny paid for the licenses and build codecs. RV9 was developped and built by RealNetworks. Why would they open their stuff? It's two different world IMO. MPEG people survive with license fee incomes. RN people survive on product sales. I very happy that I can use their codecs for free, legally.

[midiguy]

Originally posted by S_O
So why isn´t Real opening it´s format? Real also isn´t the "you-cannot-convert-it"-format anymore since Tinra. Why doesn´t Real want other implementations of their standard?

Well Tinra has quite a few limitations, and doesn't always deliver the best results. But you can convert real content to other formats using gabest's directshow filter.

[S_O]

This is old stuff RV_62, RV8 and RV9 aren't avalible, also RealAudio 3 to 8.5 arent.
Wrong. Real Audio 3 is ATSC A52 AC-3. Full specification: http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_52a.pdf (Note for lower samplerates: if (BSID==9) samplerate/=2; if (BSID==10) samplerate/=4;)
Open source decoder library: http://liba52.sourceforge.net/
For the other codecs no open-source decoder.
This I can't answer. From what I know, MPEG team developped MPEG4 standarts, and didn't developped a codec. Other compagny paid for the licenses and build codecs. RV9 was developped and built by RealNetworks. Why would they open their stuff? It's two different world IMO. MPEG people survive with license fee incomes. RN people survive on product sales. I very happy that I can use their codecs for free, legally.Look how many mpeg-audio layer 3 implementations are there? 4. The dist10 based encoders, the Lame based encoders, FhG encoders, Xing encoders. That´s it. Most likely nobody is going to create a implementation in the same quality real offers, but for hardware developers it would help to support RealVideo, because they have to build a decoder which is designed for their product (memory/cpu use etc.)

[Sirber]

MP3 was open source like MPEG4. We can't compare :)

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by S_O
Most likely nobody is going to create a implementation in the same quality real offers, but for hardware developers it would help to support RealVideo, because they have to build a decoder which is designed for their product (memory/cpu use etc.)
A long list of companies have licensed RA/RV source code via Helix, and are working on hardware ports as we speak. We have compliance requirements to make sure the quality is as expected, and we assist them as best we can. A few are even complete, but I don't think the product has been announced yet, so I can't provide the details just now.

[S_O]

A long list of companies have licensed RA/RV source code via Helix, and are working on hardware ports as we speak. We have compliance requirements to make sure the quality is as expected, and we assist them as best we can. A few are even complete, but I don't think the product has been announced yet, so I can't provide the details just now.Great! I guess this list isn´t public?

I know M$ does the same, that´s probably the way the source for wma/wmv decoders became public, a leak somewhere in one of these companies. Hopefully in one of the companies from Real´s list is also a leak :) And we have a open-source decoder for RealAudio/Video.

MP3 was open source like MPEG4. We can't compare
Some implementations are open-source, but FhG encoder is not open-source. Also Xing is not open-source (AFAIK Xing was bought by Real, maybe the source is now somewhere in Helix). Only the iso-example code is open, and the encoders based on it. Also Lame is based on dist10, but it doesn´t contain one line from the example-code anymore.
You mean MP3 is a format with specs, and Real is propertary. But there isn´t a big difference: the mp3 specs also aren´t free, neither is the dist10 source code. Real also sells the source code (specs?), but most likely there are restrictions for the companies using this code, like no open-source implementation etc.. Also they are most likely a lot more expensive than the mp3 specs and also probably not sold to everybody.