Sorenson3 vs real9

[lilhobo]

anyone tested these codec???

[Sirber]

Sorenson3 crashed when I tryed it...

[Sirber]

Choosing between both, I would go for RV9. Better support, better fan club :D, and also better quality :)

[kastro68]

i]Originally posted by Sirber [/i]
Choosing between both, I would go for RV9... better quality

Hmm, I think it is unprofessional to make this statement seeing how you didn't try Sorenson3 yet.

Originally posted by Sirber
Sorenson3 crashed when I tryed it...


I believe one of the rules in the 'Professional Code of Conduct' stipulates that you cannot give advice in an area where you lack proper, up-to-date knowledge...otherwise you can get sued.

You have to indicate your level of uncertainty, and if required, seek a second opinion.

For instance, a General Practioner cannot really give advice about skin cancer or eczema, he has to send the patient to a Dermatologist.

I'm not trying to be mean and pick a fight. My intention is to give some friendly advice, so that you don't get sued. Professional Indemnity insurance premiums are high enough as they are
:D

[RadicalEd]

From what I understand Sorenson 3 is really just an early implementation of H.264, much like MSMPEG4 was an early implementation of Mpeg 4 ASP.

Originally posted by Sirber
better fan club :D

of course :D

[unmei]

kastro68 since when is this a pro forum ? :D

Many pros have to work with the tools someone else decided on, and still they defend these tools to the blood only because they are used to work with them. Therefore i'm glad i haven't seen the pro part of this forum yet..

Anyway..i somehow agree you should not talk too bigabout stuff you dont know much, but on the other hand it's not like your posts here must all be 100% bulletproof or something...the people reading should decide on their own, what they want to believe and what not :D

And i say i _do_ like rv9 better _because_ i did not try sorenson3 yet :) The point is this: the more open a and available to everyone a codec is, the more chances it has to be loved by me, and rv9 just recently entered my heart a little more with the matroska compatibility..well im still on the xvid side, but i like rv9s fanclub :P

[kastro68]

Although this forum is not governed by any professional bodies, I kind of think of this forum as a professional one. There are obviosly very very talented people (I'm not one of them) that browse and contribute to this forum.

Gabest, Nic, suiryc, Syskin, robux, Christian, Koepi, Teegedeck, jggimi, pamel, milan, karl, shodan are just some of the people that I respect and admire. These guys obviously know their stuff and so I attach high credibility to what they have to say. Sirber also has some credibility where RV9 is involved.

The thing is, in our contemporary society, we have to be careful with what we say because our credibility is at stake with each irresponsible sentence that leaves our mouth. Have you heard of the story about the 'Boy who cried wolf?'

I'm sure no one on this forum is gonna sue anyone for incorrect/invalid information, but it is good practice to be careful.

[unmei]

no i haven't heard this story..

else i errm really don't know what to counter.. you're too damn right :D
But i don't like it too much, i sometimes like too express my opinion even if i don't know much. But then i find it important to admit ones faults once one understands his owns faults.
I like to hold it like this here, and probably i should count myself lucky not being amongst the persons who, through their enormous knowledge, have reached a credibility where it can become a problem when they make wrong claims, even after they corrected themself

BTW your list of gurus seems to coincide pretty much with mine (at lest those i know, i dont know all of them well since i only hang out in a few sections here)

[/me is a fan of dedicated amateurism, not of professionalism :P]

[shlezman]

From my very unprofessional tests (due to time and licensing limitation), of the MPEG4 codec (not all the others included in the application, including real).

The SQ3 application is very buggy and slow. But delivers good results in QCIF/CIF resolutions and low bitrates (100..300). Higher resolutions had some crappy motion artifacts, maybe due to the famous qpel issue.

The SQ3 MPEG4 offers many option including 2pass/qpel/gmc/b-frames/interlaced, probably not all features work too well with each-other :confused:

I was disappointed from the speed and bugs, and stopped the test in a very early stage, without even testing the AAC. Maybe newer version without the bugs are better, I'll be happy to read another opinion.

But comparing MPEG4 to RV9 is all wrong and I dislike these comparisons, I think it's unprofessional. MPEG4 is an open standard that was closed in the previous millennium and will never deliver the great quality that RV9/WMV9 and other proprietary codec can offer.

When H.264 will be applicable, quality tests might be meaningful.

[Nic]

Kastro is right, judgements should only really be made through experience. However, threads that ask "which one is better" is also against the rules and tends to lead to unconstructive posts.

My experience with Sorrenson Video 3 has only been with encoding with the Quicktime and using the built in free version. Which has very poor quality. There professional version might be leaps and bounds better (but I doubt it's too impressive, and of course you have to pay for it just to test it, which you don't with rv9)
(In my opinion even this free codec is better that QuickTime's MPEG-4 implementation, I had to do a lot of testing at work to decide which to use, generally SV3 was better (still went with MPEG-4 though)
( http://www.sorenson.com/content.php?cats=2/66&nav=2 )
Will explain more about the proffesional version.

As Sirber said RV9 has excellent support, is free and is a lot easier to use (and code for). Also at low bitrates Im very impressed by it (IMHO it does these sometimes way better than WMV9).

-Nic

[Sirber]

Originally posted by kastro68
Hmm, I think it is unprofessional to make this statement seeing how you didn't try Sorenson3 yet.I did try it, and it crashed in my 3 tests. How can a "Pro" tool can be that buggy and unstable?

I believe one of the rules in the 'Professional Code of Conduct' stipulates that you cannot give advice in an area where you lack proper, up-to-date knowledge...otherwise you can get sued.

You have to indicate your level of uncertainty, and if required, seek a second opinion.

For instance, a General Practioner cannot really give advice about skin cancer or eczema, he has to send the patient to a Dermatologist. Sir Yes Sir

BTW, I'm not a "professional". I answers from my experience and knowledge. That guy wanted to know between RV9 and Sorenson 3, which one was the best. I answered that. :sly:

Also, your reply wasn't really on the subject... is bashing in the 'Professional Code of Conduct'? :eek:

[SeeMoreDigital]

Are you guys talking about the new Sorenson 'Squeeze' 3.5 software? If so, we are about to try it out at work!

[Sirber]

I think it was Sorenson Squeeze 3.0 software...

[LeonMcNichol]

Originally posted by Sirber
I did try it, and it crashed in my 3 tests. How can a "Pro" tool can be that buggy and unstable?


I don't know, what about Windows Media Encoder 9? I've yet to get this tool to encode anything other than asf/wmv files.

[Sirber]

"asf/wmv files"

You can't. WMV9 produce wmv and Real Producer rmvb.

[LeonMcNichol]

I mean converting avi/mpg/avs files. When I try to load any of those, the program crashes, but if I load an asf file, it doesn't.

[Ramirez]

Originally posted by kastro68
Hmm, I think it is unprofessional to make this statement seeing how you didn't try Sorenson3 yet`
I think it's even more unprofessional to draw such groundless conclusions :rolleyes:,we've tested Sorenson codec very intensively a few month ago (guess who was a tread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46272&highlight=sorenson) starter?) and the results where very disappointing, the codec simply produced an exceptionally poor quality videos at ANY resolution or bitrate (tested it yesterday also using Sorenson's squeeze3.5 app: nothing changed since then, the quality is still POOR P: tested in 570/1000KPBS.
Originally posted by kastro68
I believe one of the rules in the 'Professional Code of Conduct' stipulates that you cannot give advice in an area where you lack proper, up-to-date knowledge....
Maybe you're thinking that this forum is being ruled by a "samurai's code of honor" and people get executed for violating a "wrong advice" rule all over the place? :D
Originally posted by kastro68
Otherwise you can get sued
LOL! :D This is funny IMHO, so I might get sued just for saying that" IMHO S3 codec is nothing but a low quality crap"?

Couldn't care less... :P

[lilhobo]

keep it coming lads :D in between all the crap lies the answer !!! Whilst it wasnt designed for a flamfest, in hindsight, it might have needed up like so.

i too thought this to be a mature if NOT "professional" forum :)

when u say RV9 is free you mean the codec right, and not the producer??

[kastro68]

Hey, there is no need to get nasty.

I was talking about the real world in general.

I'll attribute this to a failure in communication. I guess I was too linguistically analytic, pulling apart other people's sentences. I shouldn't have done this because not everyone here speaks perfect English...which can lead to false positives.

Ramirez I know you are Sirber's buddy, so of course you would take his side. Isn't friendship great :)

There was a story in the newspaper a while back where a retired financial advisor got sued by a prostitute for giving outdated financial advice that he accidently blurted during fornication. If he can get sued from such a silly case, the ramifications can be very serious indeed.



is bashing in the 'Professional Code of Conduct'?
Since you asked this question, it would be rude for me not to answer.
I haven't read the whole doctrine yet, but there is a section in there titled 'Whistle blower's provision,' if I remember correctly.

I'm too lazy to add more wood to this fire. Someone grab the fire extinguisher.

[Sirber]

Originally posted by lilhobo
when u say RV9 is free you mean the codec right, and not the producer?? Everything you need to use RV9 is free. Check my second link in my signature.

[lilhobo]

that helix community website wont show me a Ip address to allow thru the fire wall! anyone know what it is?

[Sirber]

I don't get your problem. Can you add more details (Use EHQ :p)?

[lilhobo]

EHQ???

extra high qulaity ?? d'uh

ok i got Macafee firewall up due to the crp worm thingie....the IP address of the helix community website doesnt show up in macafee..

if te IP shows in the firewall App then i can click it and allow it to send stuff to my computer :D

[unmei]

nice joke sirber :)

[IvS]

"You can't. WMV9 produce wmv and Real Producer rmvb."

Yes, you can use WMV9 in avi, Sirber. Using the WMV9 VCM, you can use WMV9 in VirtualDub(Mod) and endless other apps easily. Unlike RV9.

Currently Microsoft's site is unavailible because it's heavily "blastered" so i can't provide the link.

edit: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&familyid=0c99c648-5800-4aa3-a2fe-3de948689db8
edit 2: Sorry, my statement was actually too simplified. Actually not only can you use WMV9 in a avi container, but also in a mkv container, and any other possible future container. It's not limited just to avi in any way.

[Sirber]

If you read well, with Windows Media Producer, you can just produce WMV/WMA, and with Helix Producer, RM/RMVB. No one talked about the VCM codec... BTW :eek: :p :D

[Sigmatador]

Originally posted by Sirber
If you read well, with Windows Media Producer, you can just produce WMV/WMA, and with Helix Producer, RM/RMVB. No one talked about the VCM codec... BTW :eek: :p :D
if you think well :p you can encode your video with Windows Media Producer in a wmv container, and transmux it to a MKV/AVI container (via directshow) which you can edit with vdub if you have the WMV VCM codec.

btw, you can do this too with rv9 ^^ but only with a mkv container.

[Sirber]

Great. I didn't know that. Can WMA be transmuxed also into other container?

[lilhobo]

can someone point me to description of containers: "conatiners for noobs"..:D

[Sagittaire]

Look my Mattroska demo ...

WM9 Matroska

Video WMV9 2 pass with WMEncodeur 720*288 1000 Kbps
Audio WMA9 2 pass with WMEncodeur 96 Kbps

RM9 Matroska

Video RV9 EHQ 2 pass 720*288 1000 Kbps
Audio RA cook surround 96 Kbps

compressibility

40% with XviD Devapi4

AviSynth Script


################################################################################

# AviSynth 2.52 #

# Script Motion Detection Filter Version 3 24/06/03 #

################################################################################


################################## Faq ...;-) ##################################


# Plugin MPEG2Dec3.dll version 1.08 #
# Plugin Convolution3DYV12.dll #
# Plugin FluxSmooth.dll #

# Source : Path projet .d2v of DVD2AVI 1.76 #
# CPU_type : you will choose 5 for Pentium IV and 7 for the other processors #
# Motion_Type : choose "light", "medium" or "strong" filtering #

# Threshold : adjustment of the threshold of detection of the scenes #

# Top : Crop top of the image #
# Left : Crop left of the image #
# Right : Crop right of the image #
# Bottom : Crop bottom of the image #

# DimX : Width of the image #
# DimY : Height of the image #

# Start : Start Frame #
# End : End Frame #


################################## Variables ###################################


Source = "C:\Stock\azerty.d2v"
CPUType = 2
MotionType = "light"

Left = 0
Top = 90
Right = 0
Bottom = 72

DimX = 720
DimY = 288

Start = 0
End = 0

ThresholdSM = 2.5
ThresholdHM = 7.5


############################### Script Principal ###############################


clip = Mpeg2Source( Source, idct = CPUType)
clip = Trim( clip, Start, End)
clip = Crop( clip, Left, Top, -Right, -Bottom)
clip = FluxSmooth( clip, 5, 3)
clip = DMF( clip, DimX, DimY, MotionType, ThresholdSM, ThresholdHM)
Return clip


################################## Fonctions ###################################


# Motion_Hight : function of filtering of fast scenes #

function Motion_Hight( clip Hight, float DimX, float DimY, float N)

{

Hight = BicubicResize( Hight, DimX, DimY, 0.33, 0.33)
Hight = Convolution3D( Hight, 0, 3*N, 3*N+2, 1*N, 1*N+2, 3, 0)
Return Hight

}


# Motion_Medium : function of filtering of Mediums scenes #

function Motion_Medium( clip Medium, float DimX, float DimY, float N)

{

Medium = BicubicResize( Medium, DimX, DimY, 0, 0.5)
Medium = Convolution3D( Medium, 0, 2*N, 2*N+2, 2*N, 2*N+2, 3, 0)
Return Medium

}


# Motion_Slow : function of filtering of Slow scenes #

function Motion_Slow( clip Slow, float DimX, float DimY, float N)

{

Slow = BicubicResize( Slow, DimX, DimY, 0, 0.7)
Slow = Convolution3D( Slow, 0, 1*N, 1*N+2, 3*N, 3*N+2, 3, 0)
Return Slow

}


# DMF : function of filtage of scenes slow, medium and rapid #

function DMF( clip filter, float DimX, float DimY, string MotionType, float ThresholdSM, float ThresholdHM)

{

N = FiltrageType( MotionType)

global filter = filter

output1 = Conditionalfilter( filter , Motion_Slow( filter, DimX, DimY, N), Motion_Medium( filter, DimX, DimY, N), "diff_Previous", "<", "ThresholdSM", false)

output2 = Conditionalfilter( filter , output1, Motion_Medium( filter, DimX, DimY, N), "diff_Next", "<", "ThresholdSM", false)

output3 = Conditionalfilter( filter , Motion_Hight( filter, DimX, DimY, N), output2, "diff_Previous", ">", "ThresholdHM", false)

output4 = Conditionalfilter( filter , output3, output2, "diff_Next", ">", "ThresholdHM", false)

output4 = frameevaluate( output4, "diff_Previous = 0.5*YDifferenceFromPrevious( filter) + 0.25*UDifferenceFromPrevious( filter) + 0.25*VDifferenceFromPrevious( filter)")

output4 = frameevaluate( output4, "diff_Next = 0.5*YDifferenceToNext( filter) + 0.25*UDifferenceToNext( filter) + 0.25*VDifferenceToNext( filter)")

return output4

}


# FiltrageType : function of filtering level #

function FiltrageType( string MotionType)

{

N = MotionType == "light" ? 1 : 0
N = MotionType == "medium" ? 2 : N
N = MotionType == "strong" ? 3 : N

return N

}

################################################################################

[IvS]

"If you read well, with Windows Media Producer, you can just produce WMV/WMA, and with Helix Producer, RM/RMVB. No one talked about the VCM codec... BTW"

Sirber, if you read well, your own statement didn't mention Windows Media Producer, "You can't. WMV9 produce wmv and Real Producer rmvb.". I did read well and noticed there was an attempt to use Producer to produce avi files. Instead of mentioning the VCM, you just wrote you can't produce anything other than wmv with Windows Media v9.
Maybe that was just a mistake by you, that's understandable.

[Latexxx]

The vcm version of wmv9 doesn't produce as good results as the normal encoder because of avi frame-type etc. limitations.

[IvS]

Such as?
A limitation that doesn't relate to quality is that wmv has broadcasting quality settings that aren't availible in other containers. And security options. (not much to lose i'd say)
I've encoded with WME and the VCM, and as i remember it produces pretty much the same results, same file sizes.
If the VCM has worse quality that would be very good to know. I've searched and found no statement whatsoever about poorer quality.

[Sirber]

@IVs

It was an error from my part. Sorry :(

[RadicalEd]

I tested a little while ago and the vcm has the exact same psnr as WME IIRC :\

[Sigmatador]

Originally posted by RadicalEd
I tested a little while ago and the vcm has the exact same psnr as WME IIRC :\

good to know, what's about speed ?

sirber: you can put everything in matroska, rm and wmv sux ihmo, all my few rv9 encode is in a mkv container ^^

[Sirber]

Originally posted by Sigmatador
rm and wmv sux ihmoI hope you're talking about the container, not the codecs, coz if you're talking about the codecs, you're in deep sh*t :devil: ;)

[Sirber]

I'll post a low-bitrate clip for Sorenson3 and RV9.

[midiguy]

A few things.

There is a difference between Sorenson 3 Video and Sorenson 3 Video Pro. Another thing, make sure to update to the latest version (3.xx something), because a lot of bugs were fixed. Also, there is more than one encoder application. You can use Sorenson Squeeze, Media Cleaner (I reccomend this one, although I would change the settings manually and not blindly rely on some profile), and some others too.

Now, something you should probably know... I suspect that there is another application somewhere that "hacks" (not really, but..) the codec, and unleashes features that you normally wouldn't get (kind of like nandub and DivX 3.01 ;). Movie trailers are generally encoded using Sorenson 3.xx Video Pro, and I am sure that they are using some special apps to make the quality better. Also, I think I heard someone on some IRC channel (a little while back) claim that they have this type of tool.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Well, I have to say my brief experience using Sorenson Squeeze 3.5 was quite sucessful.

I had thought that I would have only had a choice of creating Sorenson3 video and/or Mpeg4 files. So I was quite a pleasant surprise to learn it was possible to create RealMedia and WinMedia video files as well.

My main tests however was to create Sorenson3 and Mpeg4 files and I have to say I was quite impressed. Especially with the 2pass VBR Mpeg4/AAC encodes. They even played on the Xcard which was a first!

It is ofcourse, early days. My only disappointment so far is that the max frame size is 640x480 and not 720x480/720x576!

I will report more tests soon!

[Sirber]

IIRC RV9 isn't EHQ with Squeeze :(

[Ramirez]

Sorenson's MPEG-4 codec seem to deliver quite impressive results, recently I've tested it in wide range of bitrates\resolutions and it's clear that Sorenson have made lots of improvement since early first version of their mpeg-4 codec, the only drawback I can see is lack of Avisynth frameserving and very high CPU requirements for normal (smooth) decoding of the video content (I think that at least P4 2.4/2.6 required for normal playback)

2 test encodes; the source is "Romeo must die" trailer.

ROMEO Must DIE TRAILER_S3_MPEG-4 AAC 6ch 704x384 800kbps 12MB.rar (http://www.redzone.co.il/vad/S3RV9/ROMEO Must DIE TRAILER_S3_MPEG-4 AAC 6ch 800kbps.rar)
ROMEO MIST DIE TRAILER RV9 AC3 6Ch 704x384 800kbps 12MB.rar (http://www.redzone.co.il/vad/S3RV9/ROMEO MIST DIE TRAILER RV9 AC3 6Ch 800kbps.rar)

Edit:
Sorry for this mess guys, apparently these files got corrupted during upload to my host (re-uploaded / archived)

[Ramirez]

@SMD: You can replace built-in presets settings in the "Frame Size" combo with your own values; just delete suggested frame size values with your own numbers instead.

@Sirber: There is No EHQ in Squeeze app lol. Use any of the million RV9 GUIs instead. :p

[Sirber]

talking about GUI, I'm building 4 new in that very moment :p

[deXtoRious]

I've got two silly, easy and probably stupid questions, but I hope to get answers nonetheless ;):
1) Is it possible to put Sorenson 3.5 video in a Avi/Matroska container?
2) How do you guys to RV9 in MKV???

[superdump]

To put RV9 into mkv you can use the SirElvis' Matroska Muxer GUI (MMG) for Mosu's CLI mkvmerge. Both (I believe) can be obtained from the Matroska website (http://www.matroska.org) in the downloads section. Although you should go to Mosu's site for the latest mkvmerge and overwrite the one which is included in the \mkvmerge folder of your MMG installation.

I don't know if you can put Sorenson 3 in there yet.

Edit: missed a space.

Edit 2: Alternatively you can just use Mosu's CLI to do it if you like CLIs.

[Assault]

Another possibility is to use Graphedit and Gabest's Matroska Muxer.

Assault

[deXtoRious]

2 superdump & assault

Thanx :) Although the link to the GUI on Matroska's download site isn't working, I managed to find it anyway.

EDIT: Another question. If I put a RV9 in Matroska, can I edit it normally in VDubMod?

[Assault]

@ deXtoRious

I haven't tried it yet but I think you can edit those files in VirtualDubMod. The only problem is that VDubMod can't preview your video because it uses vfw and there is only Gabest's directshow filter available for RV9.

Assault

[Sirber]

IIRC VDubMod didn't like my RV9-MKV...