DVD playback on PC

[anders@dac.se]

Hi.
I've noticed that many people says that DVD picture quilty is better on a PC than on a standalone player because of the Progresive picture that a PC can produce.
When i was living with my parents i used my fathers hing-end Pioneer player with progresive feature (we used S-vhs, so the feature was not used). Progresive or not i cant manage to get as perfect picture on my PC as with the standalone player (I connect my PC to a Infocus Projetor through D-sub). I use PowerDVD and i do not have any mpeg2 decode card.

Is the problem that i dont have any hardware decode?
And if it is, witch card is good and cheap? I found one card,

REALMAGIC XCARD MPEG4/2/1 DIVX PLAYBACK PCI

for $100 with remote controll and stuff. is that a good card?

Can i find any cheaper ones?

/Anders

[Kika]

I've noticed that many people says that DVD picture quilty is better on a PC than on a standalone player because of the Progresive picture that a PC can produce.

But that's nonsence...

If the DVD is progressive, then there's no difference between Monitor and TV. If the DVD is interlaced, it looks much better on the TV than on PC Monitor. That's a technical reason.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Anders
REALMAGIC XCARD MPEG4/2/1 DIVX PLAYBACK PCI
This really is an excellent card when hooked up to a decent system. And if you elect to use Jove's software GUI, the card offers even greater flexability.

Progressive NTSC output is possible and generates images that would normally only be seen on 'high end' DVD players.
Progressive PAL is a different story however. And is only available with non-macrovision DVD's/files.

There's no substitute. Provided the drivers are up to scratch. A good hardware card/player, will beat the pants off a software player.

[Refthoom]

Of course different cards will give different results but I think you're forgetting one aspect in your comparison and that's the difference in 'DOT Pitch' on TV screens vs PC monitors and 'pixel size' on LCD screens/projectors. The DOT pitch on CRT's is the size of the RGB fluorescents. Older/cheap TV's may have a DOT Pitch as low (big) as 0.45 whereas most PC monitors have 0.28. No matter what card you use, in the end the 'pixel' on a TV screen is bigger than the one on a PC monitor and that's (9 out of 10) why the picture on a PC monitor is much sharper and thus much more detailed. In other words, the high resolution of a 'PC-picture' is lost in the big 'pixels' of a TV screen.

You might say that HDTV's are sharper but in many cases this only seems to be the case because the picture is 'spread out' on the wide screen but the DOT Pitch remains the same.

So, not only look for a good card but also look at the rest of your stuff, since even long cables carrying CVBS signals can degrade the picture. Good luck on your search!

[anders@dac.se]

Thanks for the help SeeMoreDigital.

Refthoom:

Its nothing wrong with my projector, i've tried it with a high end pioneer DVD player and the result is much better than my PC (even using the S-vhs connection for the Pioneer).

If i use a "Scart 2 RGB" cable I made myself the picture output from the DVD is just breathtakening.

But since i dont have the budget to buy a standalone for $1400+ like my fathers i need to go on the PC line, than the,

REALMAGIC XCARD MPEG4/2/1 DIVX PLAYBACK PCI,

is good?

[Refthoom]

I don't think anything's wrong with your projector ;) I only wanted to ad a bit of my knowledge on this subject.

I have no personal experience with the XCARD, only with an ATI 9700 which I think gives a good picture on TV. So I'm really not able to answer your question. I can only say I trust SeeMoreDigital's recommendation as I think he's knowledgable on the subject from what I've seen in several posts.

One other thing that could be a possible cause is the quality of the D-sub cable. Poor quality cable will give you shadows a/o hazy picture.

Well, this about as far as my knowledge goes. Hope it helps :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Refthoom,

You raise a good point about cabling.

It's crucial that any cables used, are of good quality and even positioned in the correct way. ie away from high voltage fields and 'not coiled up' at the back of your apparatus.

Connectors can play a very important roll too. However, the most important aspect of a connector is that it should correctly come into contact with it's relevent outlet/socket. So don't be afraid check and clean them as required.

I just happen to make all my own cables and buy custom connectors. So they are always the length I need (plus a bit more for access).

The Xcard is good because it offers so many different choices of output and an RGB adaptor, as well as other adaptor comes with the card.

Cheers

[anders@dac.se]

No problem Refthoom :)

I think i've been unclear in my problems (sorry for that guys), my problem is that i get "decode artifacts" watching DVDs, this is not a big problem on my 21" monitor (i think its because its smaller than a projector), on my projector the exakt same movie, and the exakt same PC i see this "decode artifacts". So my guess is that its because the lack of mpeg2 hardware card...

the card that SeeMoreDigital was so kind to help me with, the
REALMAGIC XCARD MPEG4/2/1 DIVX PLAYBACK PCI card
cost about $100 here in sweden inlcuding VAT, is there any cheaper models that does the same job?

I'm also in another forum talking about Mini-Itx sulutins, i thinkinbg of getting a VIA EPIA-M mini-ITX C3-Nehemiah 1000MHz.
Its DVD aproved, but i cant find anywere if that means it has a mpeg2 hardware card, do you guys know?

/Anders

[Refthoom]

Aaah, artifacts. Those little b*st*r*s ! :D :D :D

Look at http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2003q2/epia-m10000/index.x?pg=1
'With a new "Nehemiah" core C3 processor running at a cool 1GHz, a full-speed FPU, support for DDR SDRAM, and a :eek:hardware MPEG-2 decoder:eek:, the EPIA-M10000 at least has the potential to be fast enough for mainstream desktops and even home theater PCs. Read on as I explore the features and performance of VIA's newest Mini-ITX platform to find out just how much power this pint-size platform is packing.'

Is this what you were looking for?

[anders@dac.se]

Thanks, it looks pretty good... what about this?

nForce2 MCP, the VT8235 lacks the ability to encode a digital 5.1-channel output signal in real time, which will surely disappoint those lucky enough to be running a high-end digital receiver in their home theaters. The VT8235 is, however, capable of producing 5.1 channels of relatively clean analog output.

I got a dolby digital reciver (with AC3 decoder and Spdif in) this will give me true AC3 right? What this does not support is software decoding, im i right? Or is it the other way around?

/Anders

[Refthoom]

What I think it means is that when playing a DVD on the VIA, you'll only have 5.1 analogue out and no digital/spdif out. In that case you can't use the spdif in of your digital receiver, I guess. Then again, if this isn't possible, what's the purpose of the spdif out?

Maybe the best option is to buy one, try and see if it all works and if not return it to the store.

Something else sprung to mind concerning those artifacts. Do you use a digital signal to feed your 21" monitor and an analogue signal to feed to your projector? Because in that case the artifacts would probably come from your graphics card A/D converter.

[anders@dac.se]

Im buying from a wholesaler, (through my company) and they dont have any obligation to give "purchase on approval". So "try and error" does not work with them :)

I looked on the VIA site though and on mini-itx.com, and on their reviews they say it has true spdif output.

About the Artifact problem, when i view DVD on my 21"monitor i use the analog D-sub (RGB) (i dont have any digital input (DVI) on my monitor), and when i use the projector i use the TV-out chip of my geforce4 Ti4600 (S-VHS). I dont use the D-sub to my projetor because you cant have a signal cable that long using D-sub, but its possible with S-VHS.

This is why im thinking of buying a mini-itx computer, then i can put it next to the projector and use the D-sub signal.

So your saying its the quility of my TV-out chip that does it?

/Anders

[Refthoom]

So your saying its the quility of my TV-out chip that does it? Well it could've if you used DVI because than one would be digital and the other anlogue. A bad chip a/o bad output filter can cause anything from blurry/weak/missing colors to snow and unsharpness. But in this case that couldn't be it because artifacts are always caused somewhere in the processing of the bits and bytes that make the picture. In other words, in the digital part.

Which brings to mind it could also be the driver. Since you use different outputs, D-sub (RGB) and S-VHS, these require different (parts of the) drivers. I can imagine that the D-sub signal is processed in an extra step to obtain the S-VHS signal. The extra step might slow the driver to a point where artifacts arise. I must say this is only speclation and not very likely. So I guess the best thing to do is indeed go for the mini-itx. That way you're rid of any influence in hard or software from your current PC.

[anders@dac.se]

Yepp, i hope it solves it :)
It looks great anyhow,

http://www.eet.se/webshop/item/itempictures/2_C6CCF27A-336F-4721-9738-6161E085CF2E.jpg?Aug%20%205%202003%20%205:58PM

/Anders

[anders@dac.se]

test post

[Refthoom]

Did you see the MSI 'box' yet?
MSI Mega PC (http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/slim_pc/slm/pro_slm_detail.php?UID=431&MODEL=MEGA651)
It's a P4 system so much more expensive but it looks really cool!

[anders@dac.se]

looks cool :)
But you can get Mini-itx casaes that is as cool.
But its not a P4 performance on a C3 CPU system. But im only going to play movies and nes 8 bit emulation :)
I'm trying to find a good forum for mini-itx, do you know any?

[Refthoom]

I googled for MyHTPC (http://myhtpc.net/forum/index.php) and HTPC and followed some links there. There are several forums, also on/about girder (http://www.girder.nl), the software to use for remote control of a HTPC. Naturally, you are familiar with mini-itx (http://www.mini-itx.com):p Also, you could try googling for XMLTV to find a lot of links to related material.

BTW, I suppose you know about the KiSS DP500? You can play any type of movie including DivX and also streaming media through it's LAN connection. With only EUR 299,- it beats the price of a HTPC. Of course playing nes8 emu's isn't possible but it's a heck less problems to get it to work ;).

[SeeMoreDigital]

I suppose you know about the KiSS DP500? You can play any type of movie including DivX and also streaming media through it's LAN connection. With only EUR 299,- it beats the price of a HTPC. Of course playing nes8 emu's isn't possible but it's a heck less problems to get it to work
The Kiss players and some of the other DVD/Mpeg4 'stand alones' are good. But I still don't think you will be able to beat an Xcard with JovePlayer software for flexibility.

I've just downloaded the new beta version of the Jove player and I can now playback WMV9 (.wmv) encodes. You can't do that on the Kiss!

And when the new Sigma drivers arrive (very soon). The card will be better than ever!

Cheers

[anders@dac.se]

thanks for the useful help :)

[Refthoom]

@SeeMoreDigital

Of course no stand alone player can beat the flexibility of any HTPC. I just wanted to mention them for the lazy types like me that come here :D

@anders@dac.se
When you're all done I'd like to know what you put together in the end. Tx

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Refthoom
@anders@dac.se... When you're all done I'd like to know what you put together in the end. Tx
Yep. I would like to know too!

Cheers

[Madsly]

My 5 cents...
HTPC is Great for everything, much better than any standalone (in same price).. a lots of options.

Don't Buy XCard - because it is only for weak CPU (VIA based) and for interlaced TV out (Composite/S-Video)...
for SCART-RGB/progressive output you can use Ati Radeon based Video Card (same price + 3d games!)... it is simple!

Best HomeTheatre Sound is in nForce MCP-T bridge... use only spdif out put, no analouge!

You can find tons of information about HTPC here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=26

Good Luck from Russia :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Well, far be it for me to fall out with a new member, but your remark is pants!

If you the correct connectors are used the Xcard can output component video which looks much better than the RGB output from an ATI card. And I know because I've run the output 'side by side' to an 42" plasma monitor!

And if the JovePlayer software is used (instead of the Sigma XmediaPlayer) the card becomes very much more flexible!

There's nothing negitive about this card what so ever. And the fact that it's able to play DVD's and Mpeg4 video in hardware, rather than software increases it's flexibiliy more than ever!

In my opinion, when the Xcard is coupled with JovePlayer it's far better than the standalone Kiss DVD/Mpeg4 player. Not to mention that with this combination it's also possible to playback WMV9 .wvm files.... Yep it's a hardware WMV9 player too!

Don't knock it. Until you try it!

Oh. And welcome to the forum!

[Madsly]

Well, far be it for me to fall out with a new member, but your remark is pants!

What pants? :eek:

Xcard can output component video which looks much better than the RGB output from an ATI card
I can't prove it, so may be you right. But RGB looks good too.

JovePlayer software is only way to use your Xcard at a full throttle, but only for Video and Audio... no vizualization and other stuff, right?...

Yep it's a hardware WMV9 player too!
IMHO, it is unimportant... do you use it often?

Any kind of HTPC-like PCs has more flexibility than standalone player! But xcard has some limitations... for example - reclock is a great tool for viewing ntsc dvd (23.976) on a 25fps display or sharpen filter in ffdshow and other filters.

I'm not talking about that this card has Bad Quality or something, i said that it is not the best way to spend 100$...
AXP1700+nforce2+ATI - good stuff without XCARD.

May be when the Xcard is coupled with JovePlayer it's far better than the standalone Kiss DVD/Mpeg4 player... but not better then Ati Radeon card + progressive display (or maybe interlaced TV :p)

And welcome to the forum!
Oh, thank you :D ... welcome http://forum.ixbt.com

[SeeMoreDigital]

Madsly,

May be when the Xcard is coupled with JovePlayer it's far better than the standalone Kiss DVD/Mpeg4 player... but not better then Ati Radeon card + progressive display (or maybe interlaced TV ) I run a company that, along with other services, provides audio and video display equipment. Most of the PC's we hire out for use at exhibitions etc have ATI Radeon cards. There's no denying these cards do a good job, however when connected to a 42" plasma monitor (using any connection method possible) they do not generate an image as good as the Xcard.

We've carried out many tests. We've outputted the same DVD at the same time to two different plasma monitors (one via the Xcard and the other via the ATI). We have even carried out split screen tests. But the Xcard always comes out on top.

And for your info the Xcard is able to output progressive scan images. It even has a setting that will allow it to be connected to 'high-def' monitors!

Cheers

PS: I would love to follow your link but I don't speak Russian!

[Madsly]

when connected to a 42" plasma monitor (using any connection method possible) they do not generate an image as good as the Xcard.
and via DVI too ? why? ... what is not good in Redeon?.. may be it is a SOFT (Decoder) problem, not Radeon?

We have even carried out split screen tests. But the Xcard always
I think it is some kind of Tweaks? Did you use ffdshow sharpenn filter&resize with radeon? - it is awesome.

And for your info the Xcard is able to output progressive scan images.
Yep, just forgot it. But Radeon has it too. :D

What are advantages of the XCARD ? - no CPU usage & workwell software + RemoteControl( aditional $$$)..

Once again, if you have Readeon, then Xcard is not then best way to spend 100$.. imho better to buy more RAM or more powerfull CPU/VGA or 120GB HDD ;) am i right?

[anders@dac.se]

Im glad to see my thread start a little discusion :)

Yes, offcourse im going to let you guys know when my HTPC is done,
right now it looks like this is going to be the specs,

Case: Cubid ITX Mini case 2699 (2699RSB)
Core: VIA Technologies VIA C3 Nehemiah CPU 1 Ghz,DDR (EPIA-M10000N)
memory MicroMemory 256MB DDR 266 Memory LP (MMDDR266/256LP)
HD: 120 Gig HD (Maxtor120)
DVD: Teac Slim 8X24 DVD-ROM bulk (SLIM-DVD8X-549062)
Mpg2Cp: Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 Personal Vid Rec (986)

Homebuild LIRC IRreciver, my old pioneer 919 DVD player remote control.

myHTPC as a front-end meny system and a plugin so i can use the HTPC as a VCR (Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250). This way i can pause in a broadcasted movie, get a beer from the fridge and then resume the movie were i left off. COOOL! :)

So now my latest ponder is if im going with the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 or with the Adaptec PCI-Card Kit (VideOh! PCI). The havent been able to find out if the later card is using WDM drives, since that is needed by the myHTPC plugin. Always Problems, always problems....

/Anders

[Madsly]

andres,
You think than "VIA Technologies VIA C3 Nehemiah CPU 1 Ghz" is enough for playing just DVDs with ffdshow sharpen and resize?.. i think its not good core....

My HTPC is based on Nforce2 MCP-T + downclocked AXP1700+ - not cheap as via core, but very powerfull and has a lot features.

You can find tons of information about HTPC here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/foru...p?s=&forumid=26 !!!

ps I think there is no need in discusion... close thread :)

[anders@dac.se]

I just want to add one thing :)

the via moderboard has mpeg2 hardware, and from what i heard the visual quailty of its output is quite exelent...

/Anders