DoCCE4U Alternate Scan

[Teslacuted]

I'm using Doom9's guide for the big 3, but my source is interlaced PAL and when Reauthorist sets up docce4u it sets the video to "top field first, progressive and alternate scan" for my source I know I need to un-check progressive but I'm not sure about alternate scan as I've never encountered it before. On or Off?

[Master Yoda]

Use bitrate viewer to check the original dumuxed m2v file, that will tell you is its alternate scan or not.Normally pal dvds which are interlaced have alternate scan.

[69Mws]

I'd say in 98% of interlaced PAL Sources you'll need Alternate Scan turned on and Top Field First turned OFF.

Top Field First On is needed when your source is bottom-field first interlaced, which is quite rare.

You may also check the CCE FAQ (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53770) (Question 10) about that issue.

I do not agree with Doom9's Guide in that case, which recommends Alternate Scanning with Top Field First turned on for PAL interlaced sources, as it contradicts with the mentioned part in the CCE FAQ and my personal experiences on that issue.

Greetz
69Mws

[Teslacuted]

Originally posted by 69Mws Top Field First On is needed when your source is bottom-field first interlaced, which is quite rare.

Bitrate Viewer tells me that it is alternate scan and top field first, so just to confirm, my settings for DoCCE4U should be:

2:3 Pulldown : Off
Top Field First : Off
Progressive : Off
Alternate Scan : On

[69Mws]

Originally posted by Teslacuted
Bitrate Viewer tells me that it is alternate scan and top field first, so just to confirm, my settings for DoCCE4U should be:

2:3 Pulldown : Off
Top Field First : Off
Progressive : Off
Alternate Scan : On

Right, but from my experience you can't rely 100% on what BR Viewer tells you.

You should always check the stream with the "naked eye" by scrolling through it a bit in DVD2AVI for example and if you find the typical signs for interlaced streams, stick with the mentioned settings.

If you don't know what I mean with "typical signs for interlaced streams" do a search on the web, as I don't have a screenshot right now to show (Google is your friend... :D )

You can't determine with the naked eye if it's tff or bff, but as mentioned before, bff is quite rare.

Greetz
69Mws

[Teslacuted]

Well I've always worked on the basis that if you see "combing" in motion scenes then the picture is interlaced is this correct?

[69Mws]

Originally posted by Teslacuted
Well I've always worked on the basis that if you see "combing" in motion scenes then the picture is interlaced is this correct?

Right, the "combing" is what you have to look out for :)

Greetz to the green Isle :D
69Mws

[Teslacuted]

Thanks, I did a test with the new settings and it all worked out fine, except that there are quite a lot of MPEG artifacts around the borders, I'm pretty sure that it's due to the low bitrate (3100) but I've done encodes with TMPEG with a bitrate of 3667 and there have been none, the only differece between the two was that TMPG resized the film to 352X576, would there be a problem with resizing it to that resolution through the AviSynth script that DoCCE4U opens? Or should I just resize it in VDubMod afterwards? Or should I just leave it be?

[69Mws]

Resizing is no problem through AviSynth, I also tried that.

I must admit, that I didn't play around much with resizing of the extra-stuff, but I read something about the need to resize your sub-bitmaps to a specific size in case you resize streams to VCD resolution (352x288 PAL, 352x240 NTSC) for example.

Greetz
69Mws

[Teslacuted]

I didn't think of the subs, re-sizing would cause problems, I think I'll just leave it the way it is, it probably won't be noticable on a TV anyway.

[Xitrum]

Just a question on interlaced material.
I've read a lot of guides and quite a few threads mentioned that if you have interlaced material, you should deinterlaced, and that exactly what I did in the past with all my movies. However, just recently, I came accross this thread

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55269&highlight=alternate+scan

in which they said that pure interlaced material should not deinterlaced, but make sure that in CCE uchecked the progressive option and zig-zig scan and checked the Alternate Scan option instead.

I tried that and it worked well, ie. no combing effects etc.

1. So should we de-interlaced material when the TV is alternated scan device?
2. What are the advantages/disadvantages of deinterlaced interlace video?
3. Where do you set the top field first option in CCE V2.67.10?
4. How can you determined whether the video is a real 29.97fps or telecined from 24 fps to 29.97fps?
5. Am I correct by assuming that if the video is a real 29.97fps then I should not used Force Film in DVD2AVI, and I should uncheck the DF (Drop frame) option in CCE, and when it comes to scenarist, I should not change the option from "Non-Drop frame" to "Drop frame" when importing Video and audio assets as suggested by some guides?

[69Mws]

@Xitrum:

Man, that's quite a load of questions.... :D

Hm....from what I saw 'til now, I didn't become quite a fan of DeInterlacing. My results came out quite a bit "blurry". Maybe it's because I'm dealing with PAL mostly and maybe it's because I tried it on animated material (Simpsons), don't know....

I think I read somewhere that DeInterlacing may be better, when watching your stuff on your computer.

In CCE 2.67 the Upper Field First Option is still there, but it's called "Offset Line" (also in CCE Basic). There's a very nice FAQ regarding CCE here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53770).

Don't know much about that thing with the NTSC-Frames (24/29.97 FPS), but when dealing with NTSC, I let DIF4U determine how to deal with it and had no problems so far :)

Maybe some other NTSC-Pros come along to give you more detailed answers :)

Greetz
69Mws

[Xitrum]

@69Mws
Thanks for spending the time to answer my load of questions...

I think I read somewhere that DeInterlacing may be better, when watching your stuff on your computer.

But the thread mentioned above said that because PowerDVD or WinDVD deinterlaced the interlaced material on the fly, so it doesn't matter.

Don't know much about that thing with the NTSC-Frames (24/29.97 FPS), but when dealing with NTSC, I let DIF4U determine how to deal with it and had no problems so far

I do that too for movies where the video is telecined, but for music DVD, where the material is purely interlaced, DIF4U did not detect it properly and used the "force film" option rather than just de-interlaced the material at 29.97fps.

[69Mws]

@Xitrum:

Yup, I also heard about that "on-the-fly-deinterlacing" but maybe not all Softwareplayers are capable of that :confused:

However, I do not tend to deinterlace my material, I leave it the way it is.

When you say that DIF4U does not recognize your stuff always properly, you still have the possibility to alter your AVS Scripts before encoding, when you're sure about it.

Personally I never dealt with an NTSC Music DVD before, just "normal" NTSC Movie DVDs from time to time, so I can't share any experiences about that issue unfortunately :(

Greetz
69Mws

[Xitrum]

@69Mws
However, I do not tend to deinterlace my material, I leave it the way it is.
Yes, that's what I started to do recently. In the past, I always de-interlaced, until I came accross the thread mentioned above.
When you say that DIF4U does not recognize your stuff always properly, you still have the possibility to alter your AVS Scripts before encoding, when you're sure about it.
Yes, that's what I alway do. But I also relied on DoCCE4U to generate the .ecl file for me as well, so I also had to edit the .ecl after it was generated by DOCCE4U, because the option in .ecl is dependended upon the name of the files.
I also had to run the DVD2AVI manually as well, as DIF4U always used "Force Film" on my purely interlaced material and the frame rate was 23.97 instead of 29.97

[69Mws]

@Xitrum:

What do you mean by "...the option in .ecl is dependended upon the name of the files"?

Do you mean by that the option in the recent DoCCE4U Version that sets automatically progressive/alternate/TFF based on the filename from DIF4U?

In case when dealing with PAL sources I wouldn't recommend that, as the analysis of framestructures is not always right for PAL, for what reason ever.

I check the "to-be-encoded" Titles in DVD2AVI before encoding and do afterwards the proper settings in DoCCE4U.

I deactivated that option with the "filename-readout" in DIF4U...I'm using DoCCE4U 1.0.1.4 anyway instead of 1.0.1.5, so I have no probs with the settings :)

Greetz
69Mws

[Xitrum]

@69Mws
Do you mean by that the option in the recent DoCCE4U Version that sets automatically progressive/alternate/TFF based on the filename from DIF4U?
Yes, that's what I meant
I check the "to-be-encoded" Titles in DVD2AVI before encoding and do afterwards the proper settings in DoCCE4U
I'm doing that as well, but I also used DoCCE4U to do most of the work for me (i.e. generate the .ecl file with all the chapter points). I then manually edit the .ecl file to change the options and then let CCE does it works.

I deactivated that option with the "filename-readout" in DIF4U...I'm using DoCCE4U 1.0.1.4 anyway instead of 1.0.1.5, so I have no probs with the settings
I didn't know that option exists in DIF4U, and can I still get DoCCE4U 1.0.1.4 from the website?

[69Mws]

I think my statement about deactivating that option was not right. You can just deactivate that the fieldorder is inverted based on the filenames, sorry....but when using DoCCE4U 1.0.1.4 you don't have any issues with that.

Yup, all versions are there in the Download Section at http://docce4u.panthersden.com.

Download this (http://docce4u.panthersden.com/download/DoCCE4U.1.0.1.4.zip).

Greetz
69Mws

[Xitrum]

Thanks a lot for all your help 60Mws

[69Mws]

Originally posted by Xitrum
Thanks a lot for all your help 60Mws

No prob, you're welcome, but actually it's 69Mws :D

Greetz
69Mws