Modification and optimization of robshot method and its possible use with DVD2SVCD

[Bach]

(or how to always get the same quality for all SVCD converted with DVD2SVCD)

Hi folks,

In the end of the last year robshot method was presented to the public as the way of extracting the maximum of quality in the conversion from DVD to DVD-R, with considerable reduction of video file size. In the following weeks, it was questioned if it would be useful to the users of SVCD too. Such quarrel was unfruitful and currently the robshot’s is predominantly used only by the owners of DVD-R. The results of my tests show that the method is intelligent, however have some sort of conceptual errors that makes it tiring and there are risks of image distortions. They also show that, after corrected such errors, it is possible easy use for DVD to CVD, SVCD or DVD-R conversions, and even though automatize it for the use with DVD2SVCD.

===> conceptual Errors of robshot method:

1) mpeg2 encoding must use non linear quantisation Scale (nlqS), instead of linear quantisation Scale(lqS). The values (S) of this scale are chosen by the encoder to calculate the most appropriate step quantisation of the coefficients of the discrete cosine transform (DCT), in accordance to the equation

CQ(i, j)=[alpha*C(i, j)]//[(QM(i, j)*S) ],

Where // means that the result of the division is rounded off, CQ(i, j) is the quantized term i,j of the matrix of coefficients of DCT, alpha is a numerical constant, C(i, j) is the term i,j of the matrix of coefficients of DCT and QM(i, j) is the term i,j of the quantisation matrix. When using nlqS, the variation of S is more smooth than that of lqS for S<60, so that the encoder can choose smooth values of S, minimizing the distortions.

2) the value of Q.factor must be smaller than 40. Robshot method (RoM) uses Q.factor=60, a value that is very close to the limit for which we observe distortion. Attention that the Q.factor is an exclusive concept of CCE, directly related with the quantisation, but it does not mean QM nor S, and it is not very clear the way that it is calculated. Based in the results of my tests, I believe that Q.factor is in some way proportional to the average value of the product QM(i, j)*S. Anyway, the Q.factor is the direct measure of the quality to be gotten so that, if two different films are recompressed using the same settings and the same Q.factor, can be guaranteed that they have the same quality.

3) the value of bias must be bigger than 0. If we use bias=0, the great freedom of variation of the bitrate results in the possibility of great distortions in very dark scenes. I recommend to use bias=10. It is interesting to know that this value can be directly modified in the ecl file, so that it is not necessary to wait for the end of the first pass.

4) The average bitrate, used in the second pass, is not necessarily equal to 2000. This is a crucial error. When we choose to make the first step using a fixed Q.factor, we are actually saying to CCE which quality we want to get in our encoding. In exchange, CCE will say us what is the size that the archive must have so that it gets such quality. Thus, the average bitrate used in the second pass must be calculated from the size of the mpv file created in the first pass, using the equation

avr_bitrate=mpv_size*8.192/(movie_time_length*60)

For example, if mpv_size=1,400,000 KB and movie_time_length=100 min, then avr_bitrate=1911 kbps.

5) the value of image quality priority equal to 5 is very small. It should be between 15 and 25. In accordance with CCE manual itself, “When the value is close to 0,the mosquito noise at the edges (noise causing hazy part along the edges,looking like flying mosquitoes)is less outstanding, but the contouring noise (noise which looks like contour line patterns, which appear in flat and wide areas,such as dark background) is more outstanding”.

6) It is totaly unnecessary to open “advanced settings” in order to manually modify the values of global and local bitrates. This stage of RoM can be totally discarded. When we follow instructions 2, 3 and 4, the average quantisation already is in the adequate value and the average allocation of bits already is optimized, so that any attempt of fine adjustments will be only loss of time.
In this point it is necessary to make some commentaries, for those that already usually use RoM and may insist on opening “advanced settings”:
= > the red regions do not correspond to images with distortion. They correspond to completely black parts of the film, that are codified with highest quantisation and very low bitrates;
= > the gray areas, if exists, already have practically the highest allowed bitrate and any attempt of change it to green will result in the creation of a new gray region in GOPs that were previously in green regions;
= > when we follow instructions 2, 3 and 4, it is verified that the value of the average Q.factor of the film is always the same, and it doesn´t matter which was the source film. This can also be verified with the use of BitrateViewer.

One question may appear: You said that it is unnecessary to use “advanced settings”. Does it mean it is unnecessary to make the second pass also?
No. Surely the second pass is necessary. I said that the average allocation of bits already is optimized, but the distribution of these bits inside of each GOP still can and must be optimized, and for this it is necessary to use multipass (it may be 1 or 2 pass). More than two, however, is loss of time and risk of distortion.

Now that the corrections in the RoM had been made, go to the second part of the heading of this post.

===> How to automatize robshot-Bach method:

The modifications done above make it possible to use RoM, now robshot-Bach, in an automatization tool, as for example DVD2SVCD, in order to use an adequate amount of CDs. At this moment I do it by hand, following the procedure below:

- run CCE 1passVBR, Q.factor = 30 (or 40), min = 0, max = 2500, bias = 10, and the other settings as usual;
- Calculate the average bitrate (avb_1pass) of the mpv file created by CCE, in accordance with the equation of item 4;
- Calculate the average bitrate that should be used to fill 1CD (avb1), 2CDs (avb2), 3CDs (avb3), or 4CDs (avb4):
-If ((avb_1pass - avb1)/avb1) < 0,1, then avb_1pass = avb1;
-Else if ((avb_1pass - avb2)/avb2) < 0,1, then avb_1pass = avb2;
-Else if ((avb_1pass. avb3)/avb3) < 0,1, then avb_1pass = avb3;
-Else avb_1pass = avb4.
- Execute multipass, 1, 2 or 3 passes, using min = 0, max = 2500, avr = avb_1pass, bias=10, and the remain settings as the previous one. Note that this multipass will re-use the vaf file created in the 1passVBR. So, the first pass of this multipass is NOT the vaf creation. It is the mpv creation.

Because of the way that DVD2SVCD works, the size (and consequently the average bitrate) of a SVCD depends only of the movie time length, without taking into account its compressibility. Since the author recommends that the average bitrate should be always between 1600 and 2230, the majority of the conversions done with DVD2SVCD have good quality. I say the majority, but not all. There is the possibility of, for example, producing 3 CDs of a film of 140 minutes of easy compressibility in 2 CDs, wasting then 1 CD. It could happen also that we use only 2 CDs for a film of 110 minutes when, in the truth, its compressibility is hard and would need 3 CDs.

To avoid such thing, in fact, all my last SVCDs have been done using this method.

To finish, I would like to say that this is only one small contribution for the users of the CCE, which may also be of advantage for the users of DVD2SVCD. I hope that it is of some value.

[dvd2svcd]

Thanks Bach, it looks very interesting. I'll call this method RoBa if it's ok with you and make this post sticky for the time being. I'll see if I can implement it in the next release.

Something like this?
1. Do a CCE 1-pass VBR with Robshots settings + your added changes
2. Do your calculations and changes then run CCE in x-pass VBR

For those interested here's what CCE has to say about BIAS:

Originally by CCE
Breaking into bit allocation strategy The encoder allocates bits
based on the original evaluation standard, so that all images have the
same visual quality. Changing the value of the Bias part breaks
into this evaluation standard. 0 to 100 can be set here. The initial
value is 30. As the value becomes smaller, more bits are allocated to
complicated scenes, and at value 0, the bitrate fluctuation is largest.
As this value becomes larger, more bits are allocated to simple scenes,
and at value 100, streams closer to CBR are output.So as I see it this is a value that I should populate so it can be changed by the users when using the Multipass method.

[Holomatrix]

Great post, will try settings on next encode. I can't seem to get to Robshots site to view the original guide. Is it down? I just wanted to know what the other settings were - Resize method and if any filters (TS or Sharpen) were used on any of the passes?
Thanks

[dvd2svcd]

@Bach: Do you delete the VAF file inbetween the 1-pass vbr and the multipass. I has because I am getting CRC Errors when I try the above method (and if you do then I think I misunderstood your post/Robshots method).
Originally posted by Bach
No, I don´t delete the vaf file. It is re-used in the multipass. I got CRC errors in the past (maybe half year ago) and the reason was one of the following:
a) I have edited the avs file;
b) I have changed the place where the d2v file was;
c) I have some codec misbehaviour. This means that, in the pass of vaf creation, the avs file was read by CCE as yuv. In the second pass, CCE "think" it was RGB and try to do RGB->YUV.

Btw: since I was playing with different matrices (what a waste of time...) too, my tests where done with link2 + CCE 2.62. I don't have any crashs since May.

Are you reading CCE logfile to verify if it say anything? The last lines of my CCE logfile at this moment are the following:

---------------------------------------------

***** CCE SP Trial Version started at 2002/07/11 11:15:33 *****
SDK version 2.62 CCE Trial (built at Mar 13 2001 05:08:41)
fexp thread created.
Found idx1.
biCompression = WRPR
fccHandler = WRPR
trying yuy2.
cce created.
encoder initialized.
encoding started at 2002/07/11 11:18:25.
>> received encoding start notification
>> received encoding stop notification
encoding stopped at 2002/07/11 11:22:05.
sync stopped.
fdev0 closed.
fdev1 closed.
>>>> Performance <<<<
Source : 166.875 seconds (4001 frames)
Elapsed: 219.564 seconds
---------------------------------------------------
>> File reading 0.693 0.316 %
>> Decoding 104.400 47.549 %
>> RGB -> YUY2 0.000 0.000 %
---------------------------------------------------
>> MPEG encoding 114.471 52.136 %
fexp thread terminated.
***** CCE SP Trial Version shutting down at 2002/07/11 11:23:39 *****
***** CCE SP Trial Version started at 2002/07/11 11:28:15 *****
SDK version 2.62 CCE Trial (built at Mar 13 2001 05:08:41)
fexp thread created.
Found idx1.
biCompression = WRPR
fccHandler = WRPR
trying yuy2.
cce created.
encoder initialized.
encoding started at 2002/07/11 11:28:41.
>> received encoding start notification
>> received encoding stop notification
encoding stopped at 2002/07/11 11:32:20.
sync stopped.
fdev0 closed.
fdev1 closed.
>>>> Performance <<<<
Source : 166.875 seconds (4001 frames)
Elapsed: 218.668 seconds
---------------------------------------------------
>> File reading 0.562 0.257 %
>> Decoding 103.591 47.373 %
>> RGB -> YUY2 0.000 0.000 %
---------------------------------------------------
>> MPEG encoding 114.516 52.370 %
fexp thread terminated.
***** CCE SP Trial Version shutting down at 2002/07/11 11:33:28 *****
***** CCE SP Trial Version started at 2002/07/11 12:49:32 *****
SDK version 2.62 CCE Trial (built at Mar 13 2001 05:08:41)
fexp thread created.
Found idx1.
biCompression = WRPR
fccHandler = WRPR
trying yuy2.
cce created.
encoder initialized.
encoding started at 2002/07/11 12:50:32.
>> received encoding start notification
>> received encoding stop notification
encoding stopped at 2002/07/11 12:54:19.
sync stopped.
fdev0 closed.
fdev1 closed.
>>>> Performance <<<<
Source : 166.875 seconds (4001 frames)
Elapsed: 227.377 seconds
---------------------------------------------------
>> File reading 0.652 0.287 %
>> Decoding 106.818 46.978 %
>> RGB -> YUY2 0.000 0.000 %
---------------------------------------------------
>> MPEG encoding 119.907 52.735 %
fexp thread terminated.
***** CCE SP Trial Version shutting down at 2002/07/11 12:59:41 *****
***** CCE SP Trial Version started at 2002/07/11 14:03:37 *****
SDK version 2.62 CCE Trial (built at Mar 13 2001 05:08:41)
fexp thread created.
Found idx1.
biCompression = WRPR
fccHandler = WRPR
trying yuy2.
cce created.
encoder initialized.
encoding started at 2002/07/11 14:06:24.
>> received encoding start notification
>> received encoding stop notification
encoding stopped at 2002/07/11 14:21:51.
sync stopped.
fdev0 closed.
fdev1 closed.
>>>> Performance <<<<
Source : 455.488 seconds (13651 frames)
Elapsed: 927.574 seconds
---------------------------------------------------
>> File reading 2.886 0.311 %
>> Decoding 405.560 43.723 %
>> RGB -> YUY2 0.000 0.000 %
---------------------------------------------------
>> MPEG encoding 519.129 55.966 %
fexp thread terminated.
***** CCE SP Trial Version shutting down at 2002/07/11 14:33:52 *****

----------------------------------------------------

[dvd2svcd]

Well, I do not do any of the above, you see I have already automated the process (without deleting the VAF file) and I got that CRC error. I will do some more testing. Maybe I should put my dvd2svcd version here so you can test it and tell me what I do wrong.

[dvd2svcd]

Originally posted by Bach
Is this the problematic version? For me it works like a charm:).
I must say: IT IS AWESOME. THANK YOU.

Now, lets try to debug (it is hard to do it without a bug:(): while watching
(following?) your CCE implementation I can see a potential culprit of your CRC errors:
In the multipass step, you are loading the pseudo_avi file and creating a new ecl from it.
This is a potential source of problems. For example, it is theoretically possible that this
new ecl have a total number of frames different from that number encoded with the previous step
, the 1passVBR.
I think it would be better to do the following:
-shutdown CCE after the end of 1passVBR.
-Read the size of the mpv file.
-Calculate the correct average bitrate, based on my If_Else_Then code.
-Edit the ecl file with the settings for multipass.
-Run CCE and load the edited ecl file.
-Encode.

I must say this again, if it have some value: I am using CCE 2.62 and Link2.

Regards.

[dvd2svcd]

Originally posted by Bach
Is this the problematic version? For me it works like a charm:).
I must say: IT IS AWESOME. THANK YOU.

Thanks :D

Now, lets try to debug (it is hard to do it without a bug:(): while watching
(following?) your CCE implementation I can see a potential culprit of your CRC errors:
In the multipass step, you are loading the pseudo_avi file and creating a new ecl from it.
This is a potential source of problems. For example, it is theoretically possible that this
new ecl have a total number of frames different from that number encoded with the previous step
, the 1passVBR.
I think it would be better to do the following:
-shutdown CCE after the end of 1passVBR.
-Read the size of the mpv file.
-Calculate the correct average bitrate, based on my If_Else_Then code.
-Edit the ecl file with the settings for multipass.
-Run CCE and load the edited ecl file.
-Encode.That might be the solution.

I must say this again, if it have some value: I am using CCE 2.62 and Link2.Well, there is a definate difference because I am using 2.50, can you test it with 2.50 ?

[gigah72]

used it last night for mulholland drive (pal-reg2/2h20min),
settings were:
cce v 2.50 (no crc-patch)/athlon 1.2ghz-512mb
iqp=20
bias=20
q.factor=30
bilinear resize
4passes
bitrate min=300 max=2500 avg.max=2350
sound=192, resampled to 44.1kHz
cce adv.setting according to bitrateviewer/mpegrepair for this movie

took a long time, but gave me 2(avg<1400) instead of 3cd (avg<2100),
well i can't say much about the quality itself, because i have't had the time to encode it the usual way, nor watch the result on tv(philips 32") to compare to the original (brought it back), but on the pc it looked a bit blocky. have to compare to the other encode i will do soon.
anyway, if the difference is not too big to the result with 3cd's, this is the new way for me. i'm corious for the event if the roba result becomes bigger then the 'usual' result.

greets,
g.

[Holomatrix]

When I run this new version, just before DVD2SVCD starts the second pass, DVD2SVCD scroll's somthing in the log, which causes it to never finish.(no log) I have to end the task. Has this happened to you guys yet?
Originally posted by Bach
Hi folks,

I have no posts this weekend because I was waiting for more reports... What is going on? Is it just me who can use this version with no problems?:( Is it hard to believe it works? I would like to get your feedback, so that we may do some sort of fine tunning of the default settings of my method, if necessary.

Anyway, here are two samples of an encoding done with this beta version of D2S. The movie is Xmen. I have used tmpeg's mpeg tools in order to cut these samples. The encoder settings were:
-first CCE run:
1passVBR, Q=40, min=0, max=9800, bias=20, quality priority=20, progressive, zig-zag, DVD compliant, DC=10, AR = 16:9.
-second CCE run:
avr= 1452, number of passes=2.

the avs file was done by hand, with the help of aviutl, is macroblock/CCE optimized and have these lines:
-----------------------
bicubicresize(686,350,0,0.5,8,56,706,364)
addborders(17,65,17,65)
-----------------------

As you can see, I did it as if I was encoding for DVD-R, with full resolution and anamorphic.

Here are the samples(links are gone now):

X_men, average action (total size = 7351 KB)
X_men, high action (total size = 19001 KB)

The whole encoded video stream have 1.1 GB. The source have 3.4 GB. The time length is 104min.

What is your opinion?
Originally posted by Bach
Hi D2S,

quote: Originally posted by dvd2svcd
"Well, there is a definate difference because I am using 2.50, can you test it with 2.50 ?"


Ok, here is my result:
1) doing it by hand: no problems, the good and old avs+2.50 pair works fine.
2) doing it with this beta version: I cannot test if it works. When it start the 2nd step, both D2S and CCE freezes and all I can do is ctrl+alt+del them. This behaviour happens randomly with the classic method too.

[Clixo]

@bach
@dvd2svcd

beta test reports:

movies:

dinossaur
planet of the apes (2000) ( gave me problems befoure so i use this one as test mvie )
matrix

settings
iqp=17
q factor 30
anti noise off
bias 10

no other filters ( no sharpening or ts )

5 passes

everything whent ok till the end using cce 2.5 and cce 2.6 + link2 ( OBRIGADÃO ;) ) in all the movies.

the final result is very good since i was not using any kind of filter but nevertheless the movies are PERFECT.

bach thank you for sharing this method
dvd2svcd thank you for making this one possible to be used with your MASTER PIECE OF SOFTWARE.


my encode machine is now half way on a cue encode of " some dvds " and til now no problem ( 6 dvd ready ) didnt played the result so only can say that the encode was finished.

[fgm]

I tried it and it failed. I used CCE 2.5 and the CCE error was:

>>
CCE encoding failed: Error: Video checksum is different from that of previous pass.
Source video date or time code may be different.
Please check video tape or the information file.
Please check video tape or the information file.
>>

If you need the log, just ask.
Originally posted by Bach
@ fgm

Your problem is the same of dvd2svcd. Could you verify if you can do it - the method - by hand?

@ clixomano

thanks for your report. Btw: this method have also the intend of to use less passes. So, if possible, please try again using 2 passes and verify if really there is any difference in using this method with 5 passes.

@ everyone

come on... 108 donwloads and only four reports? Please, post your results. They may be something like:

CCE settings:Q=30, min=0, max=2600, progressive[x], zigzag[x], linear[], bias=20, iqp=20, 2pass.
CCE version: 2.50->doesn't works (freezing before 2nd run)
2.62->works
machine:athlon 1.2 GHz
my opinion:awesome? good? not so good? bad? awful? crappy?

one last thing: now the samples linked above are just mpeg video, not win_aced. You can download it at once.

[Clixo]

@bach: i will make a test as soon it finish the cue

[fgm]

Your problem is the same of dvd2svcd. Could you verify if you can do it - the method - by hand?

Sorry, I wish I could but for the rest of the week I'm going to be swamped. I just got here for a shower and a snack, a quick reprogramming of DVD2SVCD and I'm out again. I hope early next week to have some spare time and I'll try it, I promise.

I can confirm that using CCE 2.62 with VFAPI does work. I'm currently encoding Ocean's Eleven (4X3 version :mad: ) and I will compare it with a regularly encoded version I already have. I'll let you know.

[fgm]

I must be doing something wrong. Ocean's Eleven with the new RoBa method produced only 1 CD with an average bitrate of 848. Not good! I used the following settings:

Max: 2550, Min: 200, Avg. 2400, CD Size: 801, 4 pass, Image Quality Priority: 17, Q. Factor 5, Anti Noise: 2, Bias: 20. CCE advanced settings at default except for Close All GOPs that I enabled.

Aspect Ratio: 4X3, CVD format, only one audio at 192 Kb with one permanent subtitle. Bicubic Resize: 0.0 0.75

Funny thing is that in the first pass it said 2CDs with 1669 Kb Average Bitrate. Here is the log:

++++++++++++++++++
Drive is harddisk, no need to authenticate - OK.
--------------------------------------------------------
- 17/07/2002 17:43:02
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.1.0 build 1 Pre 22
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 17/07/2002 17:43:05
- Analyzing subtitles
--------------------------------------------------------
Subtitle found: StreamID: 0x22 Language: English
Subtitle found: StreamID: 0x21 Language: Español
Subtitle found: StreamID: 0x20 Language: Portugues

Executing subtitle selection/verification.
Subtitle selection/verification accepted.
1 subtitle streams selected.
Saving Subtitles ini file
--------------------------------------------------------
- 17/07/2002 17:43:10
- DVD2AVI
--------------------------------------------------------
Creating DVD2AVI INI file:
- E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.INI

Variable settings:
iDCT_Algorithm: 32-bit SSE MMX

Executing DVD2AVI.
Executing DVD2AVI. Commandline:
"E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.exe" -CS=2 -YR=1 -EXIT -OF=[F:\Movie\DVD2AVI_Project_file]

-IF=[F:\Vobs\Oceans Eleven\VTS_01_1.vob,F:\Vobs\Oceans Eleven\VTS_01_2.vob,F:\Vobs\Oceans

Eleven\VTS_01_3.vob,F:\Vobs\Oceans Eleven\VTS_01_4.vob,F:\Vobs\Oceans Eleven\VTS_01_5.vob,F:\Vobs\Oceans

Eleven\VTS_01_6.vob,F:\Vobs\Oceans Eleven\VTS_01_7.vob]
Analyzing DVD2AVI Project file
Force Film activated!
Framerate: 23976
DVD2AVI processing done.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 17/07/2002 17:46:54
- Free on drive E: 2199.91 mb
- Free on drive F: 22169.96 mb
- Extracting the subtitles.
--------------------------------------------------------

Subtitle extraction finished. Extracted these subtitles:
SVCD Stream no: 1 Language: Español Num. of subs: 1146

Saving Subtitle Timecodes.
Permanent subtitles.
Saving Subtitles ini file
--------------------------------------------------------
- 17/07/2002 17:55:42
- Free on drive E: 2199.91 mb
- Free on drive F: 22141.52 mb
- AUDIO Extraction
--------------------------------------------------------
Found AC3 stream id: 0x80
Filename: F:\Movie\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Audio1 delay: -90 ms
Audio extraction finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 17/07/2002 18:03:40
- Free on drive E: 2199.91 mb
- Free on drive F: 21768.01 mb
- AUDIO conversion
--------------------------------------------------------

Converting Audio to MP2. Filename: F:\Movie\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Executing BeSweet. Commandline:
"E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "F:\Movie\Extracted_audio_1.ac3" -output

"F:\Movie\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "F:\Movie\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -s surround -g

max ) -ota( -d -90 ) -2lame( -e -b 192 -m s )
Audio conversion of F:\Movie\Extracted_audio_1.ac3 finished.

Audio conversion finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 17/07/2002 18:17:36
- Free on drive E: 2199.91 mb
- Free on drive F: 21610.79 mb
- Converting Pictures
--------------------------------------------------------
Converting: E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\DefaultChangeCD.bmp
Finished converting pictures

--------------------------------------------------------
- 17/07/2002 20:13:48
- Free on drive E: 2199.91 mb
- Free on drive F: 21912.16 mb
- Video Encoding using Cinema Craft
--------------------------------------------------------

Executing Frameserver.
Closing program

Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 1667177176
AudioSectors: 170309692
VideoPAPO: 23187276
ScanOffsetBytes: 201211
SeqAligningBytes: 12788090
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 8
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 600.00
PureMPEGStream: 1460690899.20
Seconds: 7001.49
CalcMPEGStream: 1460690899.20
Frames: 167676
CDSize: 801.00
Number of CDs: 2
Cut point 796.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 167676
Anti Noise Filter: 2
Passes: 4
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 200
Max. bitrate: 2550
Q. Factor: 5
Avg. Bitrate: 1669
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (No borders, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\AVISYN~1.DLL")
mpeg2source("F:\Movie\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
BicubicResize(352,480,0,0.75)
AvisynthSubtitler("F:\Movie\Subs\","permsubs.txt")
----AVS End----

Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 1.060
Video Encoding finished.


Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 834285788
AudioSectors: 170260888
VideoPAPO: 10286100
ScanOffsetBytes: 201211
SeqAligningBytes: 12788090
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 300.00
PureMPEGStream: 640749495.20
Seconds: 6999.49
CalcMPEGStream: 640749495.20
Frames: 167676
CDSize: 801.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 796.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 167676
Anti Noise Filter: 2
Passes: 4
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 200
Max. bitrate: 2550
Q. Factor: 5
Avg. Bitrate: 732
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (No borders, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\AVISYN~1.DLL")
mpeg2source("F:\Movie\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
BicubicResize(352,480,0,0.75)
AvisynthSubtitler("F:\Movie\Subs\","permsubs.txt")
----AVS End----

Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 1.070
Video Encoding finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 18/07/2002 5:24:27
- Free on drive E: 2199.91 mb
- Free on drive F: 17347.46 mb
- Video Pulldown
--------------------------------------------------------
Executing Pulldown. Commandline:
"E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\pulldown\pulldown.exe" "F:\Movie\Encoded_Video_CCE_NTSC.mpv"

"F:\Movie\Pulldown_Encoded_Video_NTSC.mpv"
Video pulldown finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 18/07/2002 5:26:47
- Free on drive E: 2199.91 mb
- Free on drive F: 16737.28 mb
- Converting Pictures from ES to PS
--------------------------------------------------------
Saving bbMPEG settings: E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\default.ini
--------------------------------------------------------
- 18/07/2002 5:26:51
- Free on drive E: 2199.88 mb
- Free on drive F: 16737.32 mb
- Converting Pictures from ES to PS
--------------------------------------------------------
Saving bbMPEG settings: E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\default.ini

Executing RunbbMPEG. Commandline:
"E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\RunbbMPEG.exe" "F:\Movie\ChangeCDPicture.bmp.mpg"
--------------------------------------------------------
- 18/07/2002 5:27:01
- Free on drive E: 2199.78 mb
- Free on drive F: 16737.39 mb
- Multiplexing and cutting
--------------------------------------------------------
Saving bbMPEG settings: E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\default.ini
Offset in Seconds: 1
Executing bbMPEG.
Variable Settings:
Movie offset: 1 seconds
Cut point: 796 mb

Executing RunbbMPEG. Commandline:
"E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\RunbbMPEG.exe" "F:\Movie\bbMPEG_Muxed_File.mpg"
Multiplexing and cutting finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 18/07/2002 5:46:26
- Free on drive E: 2199.72 mb
- Free on drive F: 15942.83 mb
- Determining length of audio
--------------------------------------------------------
Analyzing: F:\Movie\bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg
6992.304 seconds F:\Movie\bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg
Analyzing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 18/07/2002 5:47:31
- Free on drive E: 2199.72 mb
- Free on drive F: 15943.01 mb
- Creating CD-Images using VCDXBuild
--------------------------------------------------------
- No. of chapters to create: 35

CD image #1: CD_Image_File_CD1.bin

Executing VCDXBuild. Commandline:
"E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\VCDImager\VCDXBuild.exe" --verbose --cue-file="F:\Movie\CD_Image_File_CD1.cue"

--bin-file="F:\Movie\CD_Image_File_CD1.bin" "F:\Movie\VCDXBuild_Script_1.xml"
CD-Image creation finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 18/07/2002 5:51:31
- Free on drive E: 2199.72 mb
- Free on drive F: 15137.18 mb
- SVCD Creation finished!
--------------------------------------------------------

[Toffy]

Hello,
I made a first test with password swordfish:
CCE settings:Q=30, min=900, max avg 2200, max=2500,
Advanced settings untouched, 16:9 (encoded as 4:3) borders added,
bias=10, iqp=25, 2pass.
CCE version: 2.62->works, speed 0.73
no noise filter, no sharpen, no temporalsmoother
bicubic resize b=0 c=0.6
Permanent subs.
machine:athlon 1.4 GHz

my opinion: somewhere between highly recommendable and good.
I have no direct compare. It looks like a great progress.
// A test with cce 2.50 and a more difficult film will follow.

Regards

Toffy

P.S: 2. Test finished:
CCE settings:Q=30, min=100, max avg 2500, max=2620,
Advanced settings untouched, 4:3 (encoded as 4:3) no borders added,
bias=10, iqp=25, 1pass.
CCE version: 2.50->works, speed 1.1
no noise filter, no sharpen, no temporalsmoother
bicubic resize b=0 c=0.6
No subs.

These both films differ only 9 min. in length. (1. 1:35, 2. 1:43:40). For the 1. film 2 CDs are used and for the 2. 2 1/2.
The avg bitrate that is used was for the 1. film 2023 and for the 2. the max value of 2500. I think that´s how this process should work.
By the way the quality of the 2. film was very, very near to the original film.

Toffy

[Clixo]

@ bach and dvd2svcd :
2 pass testes:

the matrix
gladiator
final fantasy
planet of the apes

cce : 2.5 and cce 2.62 + link2 (in all the movies)

results :awesome

other settings : d2s default + ts(3,2)
iqp=17
q factor 30
anti noise off
bias 10

i highly recomend this method, my tests are now going to use the " unsharp" comand, and will report back asap.

[switu]

:(
I was following your quick guide and unfortunatly
CCe stoped at the second pass.The first time i was just doing 2 pass.
I have try both version of CCE 2.5 , 2.62(save mode) and end up with the same resolts
"ctrl, alt , delete"
Any idea what could be the reason?

Executing Frameserver.
Closing program

Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 834285788
AudioSectors: 8175832
VideoPAPO: 12796884
ScanOffsetBytes: 14972
SeqAligningBytes: 951579
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 0.00
PureMPEGStream: 812346516.40
Seconds: 504.08
CalcMPEGStream: 812346516.40
Frames: 12477
CDSize: 800.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 796.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 12477
Anti Noise Filter: 2
Passes: 2
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 2-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 0
Max. bitrate: 2500
Q. Factor: 30
Avg. Bitrate: 2230
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (No borders, encoded as 4:3)

[Clixo]

these are my working settings , this is a copy of my roba.ini file for roba method, just use the settings here. it is working here like a charm in am p4 1.7 an athlon 660 and an athlon 1.6 .
i cant believe that i am the only one besides Bach and Tofy that is getting results !


____________________________________________________________________
[Executables]


PVA Executable=
vStrip Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\vStrip\vStrip.exe
DVD2AVI Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.exe
BeSweet Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe
MadPlay Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MADPlay\madplay.exe
MPEG51 Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG5.1\pub_enc.exe
CCE Executable=C:\PROGRA~1\CUSTOM~1\CINEMA~1\cctsp.exe
VFAPI Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\VFAPI\Reader\VFAPIConv-EN.exe
TMPGEnc Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\tmpegencoder\Files\TMPGEnc.exe
Pulldown Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\pulldown\pulldown.exe
SubMux Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\WinSubMux\WinSubMux.exe
bbMPEG Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\RunbbMPEG.exe
I-Author Executable=C:\Program Files\Enreach\I-Author Deluxe for SuperVCD\IAuthorDlx.exe
VCDImager Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\VCDImager\VCDImager.exe
VCDXBuild Executable=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\VCDImager\VCDXBuild.exe
CDMage Executable=C:\Documents and Settings\xxx\Desktop\CD MAGE\CDmage.exe
RunPerCDImage Executable=
RunFinal Executable=
MPG2Dec DLL=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC2.dll
InverseTelecine DLL=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\InverseTelecine\Donald Graft\decomb.dll
Subtitle DLL=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\AvisynthSubtitler.dll
BMP Loader DLL=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\AvisynthBMPLoader.dll
SimpleResize DLL=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\SimpleResize\SimpleResize.dll
Title Picture=
Change CD Picture=C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DefaultChangeCD.bmp
[Folders]
PVA Folder=C:\testes\roba\
DVD2AVI Folder=C:\testes\roba\
vStrip Folder=C:\testes\roba\
Audio Folder=C:\testes\roba\
CCE Folder=C:\testes\roba\
TMPGEnc Folder=C:\testes\roba\
Pulldown Folder=C:\testes\roba\
bbMPEG Folder=C:\testes\roba\
I-Author Folder=C:\testes\roba\
Subpictures Folder=C:\testes\roba\Subs
[Settings]
XPos=182
YPos=209
FirstRun=0
Resize AVS Position=3
TemporalSmoother AVS Position=2
Sharpen AVS Position=1
UsePVA2SVCD=0
UseDVD2SVCD=1
UseAVI2SVCD=0
UseMPEG1=0
UseMPEG2=1
Convert to Canopus codec=0
Convert to Divx4=1
Use Frameselection=0
New Default Folder=1
DVD2SVCD Level=1
UseDVDRip=1
UsevStrip=0
UseInternalRip=1
Eject DVD=0
iDCT=3
DVD2AVI Pause=0
Luminance Gain=0
Luminance Offset=0
Audio1Downsampling=0
Audio2Downsampling=1
Audio1BitRate=9
Audio2BitRate=7
tooLame Mode=0
Autodetect Azid Gain=1
Folder Structure Source=
Folder Structure Video=
Folder Structure Audio=
Folder Structure Muxed=
Folder Structure Subs=Subs
Intra=8,16,19,22,26,27,29,34,16,16,22,24,27,29,34,37,19,22,26,27,29,34,34,38,22,22,26,27,29,34,37,40,22,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,58,26,27,29,34,38,46,56,69,27,29,35,38,46,56,69,83
NonIntra=16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,19,20,21,22,23,24,26,27,20,21,22,23,25,26,27,28,21,22,23,24,26,27,28,30,22,23,24,26,27,28,30,31,23,24,25,27,28,30,31,33
Matrice Preset=
Use deafult Matrice=1
LFEDownmixLR6Ch=-3
LFEDownmixLFE6Ch=0
CenterDownmix6Ch=0
SurroundDownmix6Ch=0
DynamicCompression6Ch=1
StereoDownmixType6Ch=0
RearChannelFiltering6Ch=0
DialogNorm6Ch=0
LFEDownmixLR2Ch=-3
LFEDownmixLFE2Ch=0
CenterDownmix2Ch=-1
SurroundDownmix2Ch=-1
DynamicCompression2Ch=1
StereoDownmixType2Ch=0
RearChannelFiltering2Ch=0
DialogNorm2Ch=0
No Audio Conversion=0
TemporalSmoother Strength=2
TemporalSmoother Radius=1
Use TemporalSmoother=0
Use Sharpen=0
Sharpen Value=0.00
ResizeMethod=2
Avisynth Bicubic b Value=0
Avisynth Bicubic c Value=0.8
Flip Vertival=0
Add ResampleAudio=1
Resize To=1
Use CCE=1
Use TMPGEnc=0
CCE Safe Mode=0
NoOfpasses=2
CCE Image Quality=17
CCE Anti noise value=2
CCE Anti noise=0
CBR=0
One Pass VBR=0
Multi Pass VBR=0
RoBa Multi Pass=1
CCE Bias=10
CCE Field Order=2
Progressive=1
Auto Intra DC=0
DVD Compliant=0
Restrict auto I frame insertion=0
Close all GOPs=0
Intra DC=2
M GOP=3
MN GOP=5
SEQ Header=1
Constrained Parameter Set=1
TMPGEnc Rate Control Mode=2
TMPGEnc Motion search precision=4
TMPGEnc Field Order=2
Frames pr spread=50
Spread=40
OffsetFixed CQ Value=80
Use fixed CQ Value=0
DC component precision=2
Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601=0
Use floating point DCT=1
No motion search for still picture part by half pixel=1
Soften block noise=0
Soften Intra=35
Soften NonIntra=35
TMPGEnc GOP I Pictures=1
TMPGEnc GOP P Pictures=4
TMPGEnc GOP B Pictures=3
TMPGEnc SEQ Headers=1
TMPGEnc Max frames in GOP=0
TMPGEnc Close GOPs=0
TMPGEnc Detect Scene Change=1
Enabled Padding=0
TMPGEnc VBVBuffer=0
Dont Delete Files=1
Create VAF=1
QFactor=30
Linear quantizer scale=1
Zigzag scanning order=1
Use2Streams=0
Pri1Audio1=28
Pri1Audio2=-1
Pri2Audio1=-1
Pri2Audio2=-1
Sub1=88
Sub2=-1
Sub3=-1
Sub4=-1
Sub5=-1
Sub6=-1
Sub7=-1
Sub8=-1
Azid Gain Offset=6
SubOutputPalette0=clBlack
SubBlendPalette0=0
SubOutputPalette1=clWhite
SubBlendPalette1=15
SubOutputPalette2=$001E1E1E
SubBlendPalette2=15
SubOutputPalette3=clGray
SubBlendPalette3=15
Rip subtitles=1
Min. Delay. Between Subtitles=100
Resize Subtitles=100
SVCD subtitles=0
CVD subtitles=0
Permanent subtitles=1
PAL Y-Pos=-1
NTSC Y-Pos=-1
bbMPEG MPEG1=0
bbMPEG VCD=0
bbMPEG MPEG2=0
bbMPEG SVCD=1
bbMPEG DVD=0
bbMPEG VBR=1
bbMPEG Pad VCD=0
bbMPEG Write PEC=1
bbMPEG Add Scan Offsets=1
bbMPEG Align Sequence Headers=1
bbMPEG Use Private Stream 2=0
bbMPEG Computed Bitrate=1
bbMPEG TimeStamps=0
bbMPEG Pulldown=2
bbMPEG MuxRate=0
bbMPEG Pack Size=2324
bbMPEG Packets Pack=1
bbMPEG Video Buffer=230
bbMPEG Audio 1 Buffer=4
bbMPEG Audio 2 Buffer=4
bbMPEG videoDelay Adjustment=180
bbMPEG audioDelay Adjustment=180
bbMPEG audio1Delay Adjustment=180
Use MPEGAV=0
MinsHigh1=50
MinsHigh2=76
MinsHigh3=97
MinsHigh4=125
MinsHigh5=163
NumCd1=1
NumCd2=1
NumCd3=2
NumCd4=2
NumCd5=3
NumCd6=3
CDSize 1=740
CDSize 2=800
CDSize 3=740
CDSize 4=800
CDSize 5=740
CDSize 6=800
MaxBitrate=2530
MinBitrate=300
MaxAvg=2230
MinAvg=1600
Adjust Audio Bitrate=1
Use Min. Avg.=0
Force Film=0
Movie Offset=2
CDOverlap=30
UseCDOverlap=1
FixedChapters=1
DVDChapters=0
PBCType=0
Data Preparer=dvd2svcd
Use I-Author=0
Use VCDImager=0
No images=0
Use VCDXBuild=1
Length of Chapters=300
Use TitlePicture=0
Use ChangeCD Picture=1
Use ChangeCD Picture on All=1
Use EntrySVD=0
Save XML=1
Save Movie Info=1
ProcessPriority=2
SmartDeinterlace Mode=2
SmartDeinterlace Treshold=10
SmartDeinterlace Denoise=1
SmartDeinterlace Blend=0
SmartDeinterlace Fast=1
Edit Avisynth Script file=2
Use CDMage=1
RunPerCDImage=0
RunPerCDImage Params=
RunFinal=0
RunFinal Params=
Automatic Shutdown=0
_______________________________________________________

[Holomatrix]

@ clixomano
I haven't tried doing a whole movie yet, just a chapter. Do you guys get it to work when selecting one NTSC charter with CCE?
Please test on a chapter. Thanks

[Clixo]

@holomatrix: sory dont have any NTSC dvd only avi i will try with the avi ok ?.
only have pal dvds

[Clixo]

@ holomatrix: i have ntsc dvds , i will try asap.

another thing is that this method if you are making movie longer than tree hours it will calculate the bitrate to use only 2 cds, you can change that by going to the ini file where you have images=2 change to 3 or the nr of cds that you whant.

[ChickenMan]

I tried this method on a PAL DVD called "The Paper", length 1hr 46min PAL 4:3 (16:9 non-anamorphic).

Settings I used were
CCE 2.5
RoBo Multipass VBR 2 pass
Q=30
min=0 max=2590
progressive [x]
zizzag [x]
linear [ ]
bias = 20
iqp = 20
bicubic 0, 0.6
audio 160

Copied to 2x80min CD's and in my opion the results were quite poor for a 100min movie on 2x80. Picture was very grainy.

Bitrate Viewer gave the following
Num. of picture read: 9126
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 480*576
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 25.00
Nom. bitrate: 2590000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive
Scene change detection: FOUND
Variable GOP pattern: FOUND
Notes:
Bitrate - Peak 2314 and Average 1463
Q level - Peak 7.58 and average 3.75


So I encoded the same VOB files using my normal 3 pass VBR, setting used were almost the same

CCE 2.5
Multipass VBR 3 pass
Q= ? - greyed out
min=0 max=2550
progressive [ ]
zizzag [ ]
linear [ ]
bias = 20
iqp = 20
bicubic 0, 0.6
audio 160

Result also on 2x80min and perfect quality as I would have expected.

Biterate Viewer gave
Num. of picture read: 9151
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 480*576
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 25.00
Nom. bitrate: 2550000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: Alternate
Frame type: Interlaced
Scene change detection: FOUND
Variable GOP pattern: FOUND
Notes:
Bitrate - Peak 2302 and Average 1460
Q level - Peak 9.14 and average 4.30

I'll be staying with my usual 3pass VBR for perfect results.
Cheers,
CM

[Holomatrix]

@ Chickenman
With any method you decide to use, you still need to set the CCE advanced settings according to the kind of video you are encoding. That's a given.
Please try the RoBa method again with the proper settings and let us know how it goes.
Thanks

[Clixo]

@bach: you are encoding ntsc right ? , any probs ?

few more encodes with roba and no probs at all only in a test encode with an ntsc source i am now diging to see if i find something.

[ChickenMan]

Originally posted by Bach

@ everyone

come on... 108 donwloads and only four reports? Please, post your results. They may be something like:

CCE settings:Q=30, min=0, max=2600, progressive[x], zigzag[x], linear[], bias=20, iqp=20, 2pass.


Arr guys I used the settings as requested ! Okay will re-run with progressive & zizag turned off.

[Toffy]

Sorry for posting this here, but now I am confused a little bit.
If my understanding is correct the zigzag and progressive switches are used if the source is non-interlaced (film) and are not used if it is interlaced. If I am right, these switches are not affected by any other switches in the normal mode, i.e. for a thumb user like me these switches are out of range?
The "Deinterlace" setting has nothing to do with the switches above?
I use always "no deinterlace" and in my opinion the results are loking good. Am I too uncritical?

Thanks for help

Toffy

P.S.: I have made some more SVCDs with the RoBa method and it works fine. But the saturation of the CDs is not always perfect. I compressed 2 films (4:3 PAL) and ended with 2 1/2 CDs. The first run started with 2 CDs and in the 2nd run the bitrate is increased to maximum. But the films are too short to fill 3 CDs completely.
That is a shame.

[vivaatloni]

Hi Guys,

I tested the method and get the sam failure as dvd2svcd (and some others) were getting. I tested with cce 2.50 en 2.64 but with both the same errors.

greetz Viva

[Guizmo]

Originally posted by vivaatloni
Hi Guys,

I tested the method and get the sam failure as dvd2svcd (and some others) were getting. I tested with cce 2.50 en 2.64 but with both the same errors.

greetz Viva


For me it only worked with cce 2.50 in SafeMode ...
Give it a try !

[svcdentro]

Now every time i use RoBa method is the same problem on CCE:

vinfo_open() failed: Bad Data <path\CCE_Video_Information_File.vaf>

I don't know what to do, i've lost too many time because it starts and makes the first pass and after thata when it comes to the second the problems appear, so i rip again and give it a try but it doesn't work, any suggestions.

Note: I noticed the first time it happened, because i reformat my pc and i forgot to apply the checksum patch to CCE , it was the checksum error after the first pass, then i installed the crc patch and did it again, but the error changed to
vinfo_open() failed: Bad Data <path\CCE_Video_Information_File.vaf>
What's the problem?

LOg file

-------------------------------------------
- 25/07/2002 0:31:56
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.1.0 build 1 Pre 22
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 25/07/2002 0:35:05
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.1.0 build 1 Pre 22
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 25/07/2002 0:35:44
- Free on drive D: 12254,01 mb
- Crash Recovery
- Restarting from: Video encoding
--------------------------------------------------------
- 25/07/2002 0:35:49
- Free on drive D: 12253.99 mb
- Video Encoding using Cinema Craft
--------------------------------------------------------
Cannot find registry entries for CCE, running CCE once....
Closing program

Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 4390005788
AudioSectors: 295426880
VideoPAPO: 63427212
ScanOffsetBytes: 364207
SeqAligningBytes: 23147391
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 0.00
PureMPEGStream: 4007640093.87
Seconds: 12145.24
CalcMPEGStream: 4007640093.87
Frames: 303506
CDSize: 4200.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 4196.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 303506
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 1
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 9000
Q. Factor: 5
Avg. Bitrate: 2500
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (No borders, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\SIMPLE~1\SIMPLE~1.DLL")
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\samurais\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
SimpleResize(720,576)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 0.870
Video Encoding finished.


Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 4390005788
AudioSectors: 295426880
VideoPAPO: 63427212
ScanOffsetBytes: 364207
SeqAligningBytes: 23147391
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 0.00
PureMPEGStream: 4007640093.87
Seconds: 12145.24
CalcMPEGStream: 4007640093.87
Frames: 303506
CDSize: 4200.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 4196.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 303506
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 1
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 9000
Q. Factor: 5
Avg. Bitrate: 2500
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (No borders, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\SIMPLE~1\SIMPLE~1.DLL")
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\samurais\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
SimpleResize(720,576)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

--------------------------------------------------------
- 25/07/2002 4:45:36
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.1.0 build 1 Pre 22
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 25/07/2002 4:45:46
- Free on drive D: 12245.60 mb
- Crash Recovery
- Restarting from: Video encoding
--------------------------------------------------------
- 25/07/2002 4:45:50
- Free on drive D: 12245.59 mb
- Video Encoding using Cinema Craft
--------------------------------------------------------

Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 4390005788
AudioSectors: 295426880
VideoPAPO: 63427212
ScanOffsetBytes: 364207
SeqAligningBytes: 23147391
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 0.00
PureMPEGStream: 4007640093.87
Seconds: 12145.24
CalcMPEGStream: 4007640093.87
Frames: 303506
CDSize: 4200.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 4196.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 303506
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 1
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 9000
Q. Factor: 5
Avg. Bitrate: 2500
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (No borders, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\SIMPLE~1\SIMPLE~1.DLL")
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\samurais\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
SimpleResize(720,576)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 0.860
Video Encoding finished.


Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 4390005788
AudioSectors: 295426880
VideoPAPO: 63427212
ScanOffsetBytes: 364207
SeqAligningBytes: 23147391
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 0.00
PureMPEGStream: 4007640093.87
Seconds: 12145.24
CalcMPEGStream: 4007640093.87
Frames: 303506
CDSize: 4200.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 4196.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 303506
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 1
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 9000
Q. Factor: 5
Avg. Bitrate: 2500
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (No borders, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\SIMPLE~1\SIMPLE~1.DLL")
LoadPlugin("E:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\samurais\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
SimpleResize(720,576)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

DVD2SVCD FILE

[Executables]
PVA Executable=
vStrip Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\vStrip\vStrip.exe
DVD2AVI Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.exe
BeSweet Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe
MadPlay Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\MADPlay\madplay.exe
MPEG51 Executable=
CCE Executable=E:\ARCHIV~1\CINEMA~1\cctsp.exe
VFAPI Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\VFAPI\Reader\VFAPIConv-EN.exe
TMPGEnc Executable=
Pulldown Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\pulldown\pulldown.exe
SubMux Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\WinSubMux\WinSubMux.exe
bbMPEG Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\RunbbMPEG.exe
I-Author Executable=
VCDImager Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\VCDImager\VCDImager.exe
VCDXBuild Executable=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\VCDImager\VCDXBuild.exe
CDMage Executable=
RunPerCDImage Executable=
RunFinal Executable=
MPG2Dec DLL=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll
InverseTelecine DLL=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\InverseTelecine\Donald Graft\decomb.dll
Subtitle DLL=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\Avisynth Subtitler.dll
BMP Loader DLL=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\Avisynth BMP Loader.dll
SimpleResize DLL=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\SimpleResize\SimpleResize.dll
Title Picture=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\DefaultTitlepicture.bmp
Change CD Picture=E:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\DefaultChangeCD.bmp
[Folders]
PVA Folder=D:\samurais\
DVD2AVI Folder=D:\samurais\
vStrip Folder=D:\samurais\
Audio Folder=D:\samurais\
CCE Folder=D:\samurais\
TMPGEnc Folder=D:\samurais\
Pulldown Folder=D:\samurais\
bbMPEG Folder=D:\samurais\
I-Author Folder=D:\samurais\
Subpictures Folder=D:\samurais\Subs
[Settings]
XPos=65
YPos=229
FirstRun=0
Resize AVS Position=1
TemporalSmoother AVS Position=2
Sharpen AVS Position=3
UsePVA2SVCD=0
UseDVD2SVCD=1
UseAVI2SVCD=0
UseMPEG1=0
UseMPEG2=1
Convert to Canopus codec=0
Convert to Divx4=0
Use Frameselection=0
New Default Folder=0
DVD2SVCD Level=1
UseDVDRip=1
UsevStrip=0
UseInternalRip=1
Eject DVD=0
iDCT=0
DVD2AVI Pause=0
Luminance Gain=5
Luminance Offset=0
Audio1Downsampling=1
Audio2Downsampling=1
Audio1BitRate=7
Audio2BitRate=7
tooLame Mode=0
Autodetect Azid Gain=1
Folder Structure Source=
Folder Structure Video=
Folder Structure Audio=
Folder Structure Muxed=
Folder Structure Subs=Subs
Intra=8,16,19,22,26,27,29,34,16,16,22,24,27,29,34,37,19,22,26,27,29,34,34,38,22,22,26,27,29,34,37,40,22,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,58,26,27,29,34,38,46,56,69,27,29,35,38,46,56,69,83
NonIntra=16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,19,20,21,22,23,24,26,27,20,21,22,23,25,26,27,28,21,22,23,24,26,27,28,30,22,23,24,26,27,28,30,31,23,24,25,27,28,30,31,33
Matrice Preset=
Use deafult Matrice=1
LFEDownmixLR6Ch=-3
LFEDownmixLFE6Ch=0
CenterDownmix6Ch=0
SurroundDownmix6Ch=0
DynamicCompression6Ch=1
StereoDownmixType6Ch=0
RearChannelFiltering6Ch=0
DialogNorm6Ch=0
LFEDownmixLR2Ch=-3
LFEDownmixLFE2Ch=0
CenterDownmix2Ch=-1
SurroundDownmix2Ch=-1
DynamicCompression2Ch=1
StereoDownmixType2Ch=0
RearChannelFiltering2Ch=0
DialogNorm2Ch=0
No Audio Conversion=1
TemporalSmoother Strength=2
TemporalSmoother Radius=1
Use TemporalSmoother=0
Use Sharpen=0
Sharpen Value=0
ResizeMethod=2
Avisynth Bicubic b Value=0
Avisynth Bicubic c Value=0.75
Flip Vertival=0
Add ResampleAudio=1
Resize To=1
Use CCE=1
Use TMPGEnc=0
CCE Safe Mode=0
NoOfpasses=1
CCE Image Quality=17
CCE Anti noise value=2
CCE Anti noise=0
CBR=0
One Pass VBR=0
Multi Pass VBR=0
RoBa Multi Pass=1
CCE Bias=20
CCE Field Order=2
Progressive=1
Auto Intra DC=0
DVD Compliant=0
Restrict auto I frame insertion=0
Close all GOPs=1
Intra DC=2
M GOP=3
MN GOP=5
SEQ Header=1
Constrained Parameter Set=1
TMPGEnc Rate Control Mode=2
TMPGEnc Motion search precision=4
TMPGEnc Field Order=2
Frames pr spread=50
Spread=40
OffsetFixed CQ Value=80
Use fixed CQ Value=0
DC component precision=2
Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601=0
Use floating point DCT=1
No motion search for still picture part by half pixel=1
Soften block noise=0
Soften Intra=35
Soften NonIntra=35
TMPGEnc GOP I Pictures=1
TMPGEnc GOP P Pictures=4
TMPGEnc GOP B Pictures=3
TMPGEnc SEQ Headers=1
TMPGEnc Max frames in GOP=0
TMPGEnc Close GOPs=0
TMPGEnc Detect Scene Change=1
Enabled Padding=0
TMPGEnc VBVBuffer=0
Dont Delete Files=1
Create VAF=1
QFactor=5
Linear quantizer scale=1
Zigzag scanning order=1
Use2Streams=0
Pri1Audio1=28
Pri1Audio2=-1
Pri2Audio1=-1
Pri2Audio2=-1
Sub1=-1
Sub2=-1
Sub3=-1
Sub4=-1
Sub5=-1
Sub6=-1
Sub7=-1
Sub8=-1
Azid Gain Offset=6
SubOutputPalette0=clBlack
SubBlendPalette0=0
SubOutputPalette1=clWhite
SubBlendPalette1=15
SubOutputPalette2=$001E1E1E
SubBlendPalette2=15
SubOutputPalette3=clGray
SubBlendPalette3=15
Rip subtitles=0
Min. Delay. Between Subtitles=100
Resize Subtitles=100
SVCD subtitles=1
CVD subtitles=0
Permanent subtitles=0
PAL Y-Pos=-1
NTSC Y-Pos=-1
bbMPEG MPEG1=0
bbMPEG VCD=0
bbMPEG MPEG2=1
bbMPEG SVCD=0
bbMPEG DVD=0
bbMPEG VBR=1
bbMPEG Pad VCD=0
bbMPEG Write PEC=1
bbMPEG Add Scan Offsets=1
bbMPEG Align Sequence Headers=1
bbMPEG Use Private Stream 2=0
bbMPEG Computed Bitrate=1
bbMPEG TimeStamps=0
bbMPEG Pulldown=2
bbMPEG MuxRate=0
bbMPEG Pack Size=2324
bbMPEG Packets Pack=1
bbMPEG Video Buffer=230
bbMPEG Audio 1 Buffer=4
bbMPEG Audio 2 Buffer=4
bbMPEG videoDelay Adjustment=180
bbMPEG audioDelay Adjustment=180
bbMPEG audio1Delay Adjustment=180
Use MPEGAV=0
MinsHigh1=150
MinsHigh2=150
MinsHigh3=150
MinsHigh4=150
MinsHigh5=150
NumCd1=1
NumCd2=1
NumCd3=1
NumCd4=1
NumCd5=1
NumCd6=1
CDSize 1=3000
CDSize 2=3000
CDSize 3=3000
CDSize 4=3000
CDSize 5=3000
CDSize 6=4200
MaxBitrate=9000
MinBitrate=300
MaxAvg=2500
MinAvg=1600
Adjust Audio Bitrate=0
Use Min. Avg.=0
Force Film=0
Movie Offset=2
CDOverlap=2
UseCDOverlap=1
FixedChapters=0
DVDChapters=1
PBCType=0
Data Preparer=dvd2svcd
Use I-Author=0
Use VCDImager=0
No images=1
Use VCDXBuild=0
Length of Chapters=60
Use TitlePicture=0
Use ChangeCD Picture=0
Use ChangeCD Picture on All=0
Use EntrySVD=0
Save XML=1
Save Movie Info=1
ProcessPriority=1
SmartDeinterlace Mode=2
SmartDeinterlace Treshold=10
SmartDeinterlace Denoise=1
SmartDeinterlace Blend=0
SmartDeinterlace Fast=1
Edit Avisynth Script file=0
Use CDMage=0
RunPerCDImage=0
RunPerCDImage Params=
RunFinal=0
RunFinal Params=
Automatic Shutdown=0
Originally posted by Bach
@fgm
I must be doing something wrong. Ocean's Eleven with the new RoBa method produced only 1 CD with an average bitrate of 848. Not good! I used the following settings:

Max: 2550, Min: 200, Avg. 2400, CD Size: 801, 4 pass, Image Quality Priority: 17,Q. Factor 5, Anti Noise: 2, Bias: 20
you're right. You are doing something wrong. It is dangerous to use Q.factor smaller than 20, if the maximum bitrate is not too hight. The risks of screwing up the encode is really ruge. And the reason is quite simple: "CCE handles Q.fac and maximum bitrate values in such way that is almost as if you ask CCE something like: "hey fella, show me the best quality you can acchieve (Q.factor), but pay attention: do not go above of this limit (max bitrate)." If Q.factor is too low CCE will assume that the quality worth more than compressibility. If the max_bitrate is too low, CCE will assume that, at some parts of the movie, the compressibility worth more than quality. As you can see, both low Q and low max have opposite aims, so that CCE may just screw thing up. Try to do the same encoding again using max and max_avr=5000 and you will see what I mean.


@ Holomatrix and clixomano

yes, I have tried with a NTSC chapter. Here in Brasil all DVD are NTSC. The beta version works fine.


@ Chickenman

"they may be something like..."

[1loser]

Originally posted by Bach
@ toffy

there are basicly 4 possible movie sources: film, video, telecined, hybrid of film and video. If you use "automatic" in DVD2AVI tab of DVD2SVCD, it will analize the movie.d2v and decide if it will use inverse telecine, force film or nothing. If forcefilm or IVTC were used, CCE must have zigzag and progressive checked. Otherwise, it must use them unchecked. If you select some deinterlace method, it is necessary to setup CCE as if you were encoding a film. So, even for a newbie, it is necessary at least to know how to setup CCE according to the source.
About your problem with the final file size: well, gigah72 said at the beginning of this thread, "i'm corious for the event if the roba result becomes bigger then the 'usual' result." You have just reached this case;). There are just 4 options to solve your problem: A)use a higher value of Q (maybe 40 or 50) to fit 2CDs,
b)increase the value of max and max average to 3000, to fit 3CDs (your player must be able to handle such bitrate);
c)let is as is (not a good choice);
d)DVD2SVCD could add a routine to verify if the calculated bitrate of the 1passVBR is higher than the maximum avr. If yes, use the bitrate calculated before the 1passVBR.


@ DVD2SVCD
It seems that, if you intend to support this method, it could be good to put it hidden in "very advanced stuff: use by your own risk".:)

This is my "first" DVD conversion. I've done about 60 avi to svcd conversions and half of those with the Robshot method. In first attempt at using the Robshot method I used 9800 for the bitrate because I didn't know the guide was for making a DVD-R (if that's what it's called). I found out the high bitrate was responsible for the problem I was having when playing in my standalone player. Hopefully I learned some things since than. I usually use the DVD2SVCD program ONLY to do the audio encoding and than I go into the task manager and close the program (I don't know of a better way to do that). I was getting pretty good results this way.

I use CinemaCraft 2.50, checksum patch , DVD2SVCD 1.0.9 build3.

I don't have a DVD player for my computer but once I discovered my APEX 3201 has the same IDE interface I decided to hooked it up to my computer to do this first rip. I used smart ripper and it took about 25 minutes to rip a 90 minute movie. I had a problem encoding this because it was interlaced and this is my first experience with that. I use fitCD to generate the avs script and I prefer to use "2 blocks overscan for TV" to better utilize bits. After looking through the forum posts I added the line "SmartDeinterlace(2,10,True,False,True)". The results, of course, were much better than without it.

I already created my first pass using the Robshot method with Q = 60, min 0, max 3500 (my apex can easily handle 5000, my Lasonic can handle over 7000). Since I already had the vaf file I didn't want to start over again. For the second pass I used Bias = 10, IQP = 20, anti-noise = 4, min = 0, avg = 2250, max = 3500, no sharpen, no temporal smooth, bicubicresize(0,0.80) (thinking the IQP of 20 would smooth out the picture a little from my normal setting of (5 to 15) and a higher bicubic would sharpen it a bit. Overall I was very happy with the results. In about 4 days I expect to do another rip using Q = 40.

Windows XP, 750 Duron with 512 SDRAM, 80G 5400 rpm drive. I was using a filesharing program at the same time and went into the task manager and set piority for CCE = "below normal" and the file sharing program to "high". I got an average speed about .36 which is slower than I usually get (.45 to .65) probably because of the SmartDeinterlace.

The quality was very good and the smartDeinterlace was good but NOT as good as I would have liked it to be. Is there a better deinterlacing method that doesn't make the file size very big?This method DIDN'T make the size bigger.

Is the DVD2SVCD program mentioned in this post a special revised version that will do the 2 step encoding process that is being talked about here? I d/l it but didn't install it. The file size was smaller than the one I was using, I guess because it doesn't include the other programs.

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
mpeg2source("Croupier.d2v")
SmartDeinterlace(2,10,True,False,True)
BicubicResize(448,448,0,0.8,0,0,720,480)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16)
ResampleAudio(44100)

[Holomatrix]

$#!+ it worked :) Tried again with a NTSC chapter and it worked. (I was having trouble before - if you were wondering :))
(Mental note: the only changes I made was not leaving DVD2SVCD on the log tab (changed it to the conversion tab after start) and changed the Q to 20 (not 5))

CCE 2.62+Link2 settings:Q=20, min=300, max=2530, max avg=2230, progressive[x], zigzag[x], linear[], bias=20, iqp=17, anf=2, 1pass.

Does look good. :)

[switu]

hello everyone

I have to admitted it I finally did it.
It took me few times to get it right and I have something to tell to these guys who can't get it right. DON'T WORRY, YOU WILL GET IT

My first try was dvd2svcd, and I was following BACH's guide and no luck, right after the first pass dvd2svcd was stuck .The dvd I was trying to rip and convert was a PAL dvd and I'm in Canada so the system here is NTSC .I was thinking, that this might have something to do with it, so I try few more times and nothing.(just to be sure)
Yesterday, I was thinking (remember when BACH was explaining why you could not succeed with ROBA's method, :and the reason was one of the following:
a) I have edited the avs file;
b) I have changed the place where the d2v file was;
c) I have some codec misbehavior. This means that, in the pass of vaf creation, the avs file was read by CCE as yuv. In the second pass, CCE "think" it was RGB and try to do RGB->YUV.
What I did, maybe is crazy, but it was worth the shot, I formatted my HD and I did clean fresh install of Xp and it works. The first time I tried, it work for me no problem, this time I was encoding avi2svcd and it's a pal movie again.Tomorrow I will try dvd2svcd
GOOD LUCK TO EVERYBODY:D :D :D
Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 834285788
AudioSectors: 625156
VideoPAPO: 12913848
ScanOffsetBytes: 1004
SeqAligningBytes: 63835
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 0.00
PureMPEGStream: 820681940.40
Seconds: 38.48
CalcMPEGStream: 820681940.40
Frames: 837
CDSize: 800.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 796.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 837
Anti Noise Filter: 2
Passes: 3
Image Quality: 19
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 2530
Q. Factor: 25
Avg. Bitrate: 2230
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 (borders added, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
AVISource("C:\MOvies\Polskie\test.avi")
ConvertToYUY2()
BicubicResize(480,452,0,0.75)
TemporalSmoother(2,1)
Sharpen(0.10)
AddBorders(0,62,0,62)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 0.720
Video Encoding finished.


Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 834285788
AudioSectors: 625156
VideoPAPO: 12913848
ScanOffsetBytes: 1004
SeqAligningBytes: 63835
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 0.00
PureMPEGStream: 820681940.40
Seconds: 38.48
CalcMPEGStream: 820681940.40
Frames: 837
CDSize: 800.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 796.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 837
Anti Noise Filter: 2
Passes: 3
Image Quality: 19
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 2530
Q. Factor: 25
Avg. Bitrate: 2230
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 (borders added, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
AVISource("C:\MOvies\Polskie\test.avi")
ConvertToYUY2()
BicubicResize(480,452,0,0.75)
TemporalSmoother(2,1)
Sharpen(0.10)
AddBorders(0,62,0,62)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 0.750
Video Encoding finished.

[Toffy]

@ Bach,
many thanks for your information, it was very helpful.
My dvd-player cannot handle higher bitrates so I will play around with the value of Q and look what´ll happen.
It is funny but the films which need the highest bitrates are of the poorest quality (blured, noisy). So it is pointless to use more than 2 CDs. :D

Regards
Toffy

[1loser]

Originally posted by Toffy
@ Bach,
many thanks for your information, it was very helpful.
My dvd-player cannot handle higher bitrates so I will play around with the value of Q and look what´ll happen.
It is funny but the films which need the highest bitrates are of the poorest quality (blured, noisy). So it is pointless to use more than 2 CDs. :D

Regards
Toffy I know this is directed to bach but did he say anything about higher bitrates? I'm pretty sure he didn't. I mentioned it in my post as my personal preference but his modified robshot settings use the SVCD standard of max 2756 for audio and video combined. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe you are confused because the robshot method was intended for making a DVD which has something like a 9000 to 9800 standard.

[ChickenMan]

I re-encoded the same movie (The Paper) with same settings as I posted before but with Progressive & Zigzag turned off.

Results were now similar, well within 95%, to my "normal" VBR 3 pass. A bit more grainy in places and more blurred when, for example, someone moves across screen quickly.

I'm having no probs what-so-ever with my cce 2.5 with crc patch. Will try a few more encodes of different types of movies in the coming weeks.

[Toffy]

@1loser
sorry, but I am pretty sure he did.
In his last post the paragraph directed to me. I quote:
" b)increase the value of max and max average to 3000, to fit 3CDs (your player must be able to handle such bitrate); "

The last two sentences in my post are related to the DVD-source I am using for test. Sorry, if this is misleading.

I don´t know the original robshot method because the link is broken, but I found a post where he stated that his method can be used for SVCDs, too.

To sum up, I am not sure about what you try to tell me. :confused:

Regards
Toffy

[1loser]

Originally posted by Toffy
@1loser
sorry, but I am pretty sure he did.
In his last post the paragraph directed to me. I quote:
" b)increase the value of max and max average to 3000, to fit 3CDs (your player must be able to handle such bitrate); "

The last two sentences in my post are related to the DVD-source I am using for test. Sorry, if this is misleading.

I don´t know the original robshot method because the link is broken, but I found a post where he stated that his method can be used for SVCDs, too.

To sum up, I am not sure about what you try to tell me. :confused:

Regards
Toffy Sorry, looks like you are correct about that. I don't have the original robshot document but I do have one that is based on it. I uploaded it to my homepage.

Article based on Robshot method to create a dvd-r (http://home.san.rr.com/oneloser/article.based.on.robshot.method.to.create.dvd-r.htm).

[1loser]

AVI2SVCD conversion using Robshot-Bach modification.

I definitely got my best results ever using these settings. Although it's a conversion and not a DVD rip the results were incredible. I've done 60 conversions and this is definitely the best. Usually I will convert from a 2 CD avi source to a 2 CD SVCD. By the quality of this conversion you would think it was a 2CD source. The source also happens to be of very HIGH quality. I plan on doing all my conversions and DVD rips with these settings.

My source was a 1 CD version of The Nutty Professor (Jerry Lewis version) The setting information is contained in the avs script. I like to keep it there for my records and just use a # sign infront of all the comments.

CinemaCraft 2.50, checksum patch , DVD2SVCD 1.0.9 build3. Windows XP, 750 Duron with 512 SDRAM, 80G 5400 rpm drive. Also using a filesharing program at the same time and went into the task manager and set piority for CCE = "below normal" and the file sharing program to "high". I got an average speed about .57

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
AviSource("Nutty Professor.avi")
ConvertToYUY2()
BicubicResize(448,416,0,0.75,0,0,576,320)
#TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(16,80,16,80)
#Trim(0,154510).FadeOut(150)
ResampleAudio(44100)
#PAL
#audio=160, source vbr 128 +/- 14
#fitCD 1947 bitrate
#1st pass, Q=30,min=0,max=3500,IQP=25,anti-noise=6
#2nd pass, min=0,avg=1950,max=3500,IQP=25,anti-noise=6,bias=10
#103 min total length
#CD1, 0 to 3164 sec, 794 mb's
#CD2, 3161 to 6176, 796 mb's
*********************************
title=Nutty Professor.avs
vid_out=1
vaf_out=1
aud_out=0
vid_file0=E:\AVI2SVCD E drive\Nutty Professor.mpv
vid_file1=E:\AVI2SVCD E drive\Nutty Professor.mpv
vaf_file=E:\AVI2SVCD E drive\Nutty Professor.vaf
aud_file=E:\AVI2SVCD E drive\Nutty Professor.mpa
file_focused=0
encode_mode=0
packet_size=4096
timecode=0x1000000
width=480
height=576
vmode=2
frame_rate_idx=3
cbr_brate=6000
opv_q_factor=30
opv_brate_min=0
opv_brate_max=3500
vbr_brate_avg=1950
vbr_brate_min=0
vbr_brate_max=3500
vbr_bias=10
vbr_pass=1
quality_prec=25
use_filter=1
filter_val=6
seq_endcode=1
dvd=0
half_width=0
half_height=0
fast_mode=0
progressive=1
alternate_scan=0
non_linear=0
top_first=1
lum_level=0
intra_dc_prec=-1
aspect_ratio=2
gop_m=3
gop_nm=5
gop_hdr=15
seq_hdr=1
all_closed_gop=0
fix_gop_length=0
mpeg1=0
mpeg1_cps=1
samples_per_sec=44100
stereo=2
brate_idx=7
crc=1

[file]
name=E:\AVI2SVCD E drive\Nutty Professor.avs
type=0
frame_first=0
frame_last=154510
encode_first=0
encode_last=154510

[Cidici]

hi guys!
im downloading the modified dvd2svcd version btw, before doin' some tests, i just wanna ask u this question :

which is the aim of this method ?
getting the same/better quality respect to the "canonical" n-pass method or getting somethin slightly worse but very fast ?

[1loser]

Originally posted by Cidici
hi guys!
i'm downloading the modified dvd2svcd versionI asked the question in my post (question was in blue) if this was a modified version of DVD2SVCD than would allow you to do the Robshot-bach modified method but I never got an answer. I guess from your post that it is.

[Toffy]

@1loser
I asked the question in my post (question was in blue) if this was a modified version of DVD2SVCD than would allow you to do the Robshot-bach modified method but I never got an answer. I guess from your post that it is.


Are you kidding?
Nearly the whole thread is about this new version.
Have a look on the first page of this thread in the middle you find it as attachment of a DVD2SVCD post.

Have much fun :D

Toffy

[svcdentro]

Originally posted by Bach
Originally posted by Cidici
hi guys!
which is the aim of this method ?
getting the same/better quality respect to the "canonical" n-pass method or getting somethin slightly worse but very fast ?
Neither one of both. The aim of it is to fix a minimum quality level and, done this, to be sure that all of your next encodings will have at least this quality. CCE handles the Q.factor so that it is a direct measure of the quality of the compression (read my first post in this thread). So, instead of a fixed range of average bitrate, we use a maximum value of Q.factor.

There are also two things to keep in mind:

1)the quality of the compression is not the same thing of your subjective quality. The quality of the compression is a measure of how close to the source the encoded file can be. However, if the source is plenty of artefacts (so, low subjective quality), a high quality compression will keep these artifacts as they are (thus, low subjective quality too). The worse thing is that these artefacts are bandwith lovers, so that a crappy source must be cleaned with avs filters before the encoding, otherwise the mpeg file will have a huge size.

2) most of times Q.factor between 30 and 40 already is good enough. However, since subjective quality is a personal thing, it would be better if you make a couple of tests with different Q.values until you find the best Q.factor for your personal quality level.

I guess it would be better if you read my first post again.


Just in case, i had the same problem with CCE using the RoBa option, after the first pass the program stops and shows bad data error or something, so i made a brand new wxp install and everything is fine since then, could be some old drivers or programs, who knows this things only happen to a little percentage of us and none knows how to fix them but now there are some clues....

[1loser]

If I use this Modified version of DVD2SVCD what bitrate setting will correspond to the average bitrate when using CCE 2.5 by itself for the second pass? When I use CCE WITHOUT using DVD2SVCD I can predict the final size by calculating the bitrate with fitCD and using it for the average but DVD2SVCD has MIN and MAX average. I'm not sure if either of these will give me a predictable size. Can the author of DVD2SVCD please reply?

[vivaatloni]

Here a assumption from me about this method and the question asked what the purpose of this method was: Better quality or smaller filesize (or both).

I peronally think that with this method you could expect the same results when you're encoding with CBR 2530 rate. Only the size will be a lot smaller.

Am I right here? When you use the same settings with CBR 2530 encoding then I get the same quality results but a bigger output file. (Didn't tested it though)

[dvd2svcd]

The idea with this method is like Normalization in audio. Your encoding quality will never be worse than ???? (depending on your offset Q value) and the big advantage is that it will fill up xx numbers of CDs needed to maintain that quality. So as Bach have said, a movie of 2 hours might fit snuggly onto 2 CDs maintaing the quality you would expect instead of 3 cds.

So, the number of discs used are not predictable, but all cds used will be filled to the max.

[vivaatloni]

But do you think that these settings (bias 10 q 25) also work with a CBR output? And what if I encoded a captured video 8 movie.

[1loser]

Originally posted by 1loser
Sorry, looks like you are correct about that.

Doom's article based on Robshot method to create a dvd-r. Getting the best out of CCE (http://www.doom9.org/mpg/cce-advanced.htm).

[galo]

Hi, i am trying the new roba method by i don´t get it to work
i got the message "is not a valid floating point value"
Can anybody could help me
This is the log of dvd2svc
Drive is harddisk, no need to authenticate - OK.
--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 10:55:16 AM
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.1.0 build 1 Pre 22
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 10:55:20 AM
- DVD2AVI
--------------------------------------------------------
Creating DVD2AVI INI file:
- C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.INI

Variable settings:
iDCT_Algorithm: 32-bit SSE MMX

Executing DVD2AVI.
Executing DVD2AVI. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.exe" -CS=2 -YR=1 -EXIT -OF=[C:\VCD3\DVD2AVI_Project_file] -IF=[D:\VCD\vts_04_1.vob,D:\VCD\vts_04_2.vob,D:\VCD\vts_04_3.vob,D:\VCD\vts_04_4.vob,D:\VCD\vts_04_5.vob]
Framerate: 29970
DVD2AVI processing done.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 11:31:18 AM
- Free on drive C: 23290.88 mb
- AUDIO Extraction
--------------------------------------------------------
Found AC3 stream id: 0x82
Filename: C:\VCD3\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Audio1 delay: 27 ms
Audio extraction finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 12:11:40 PM
- Free on drive C: 23079.12 mb
- AUDIO conversion
--------------------------------------------------------

Converting Audio to MP2. Filename: C:\VCD3\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Executing BeSweet. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "C:\VCD3\Extracted_audio_1.ac3" -output "C:\VCD3\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "C:\VCD3\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -s surround -g max ) -ota( -d 27 ) -2lame( -e -b 192 -m s )
Audio conversion of C:\VCD3\Extracted_audio_1.ac3 finished.

Audio conversion finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 12:25:55 PM
- Free on drive C: 22973.24 mb
- Converting Pictures
--------------------------------------------------------
Converting: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DefaultChangeCD.bmp
Finished converting pictures
--------------------------------------------------------
- 7/29/2002 12:26:04 PM
- Free on drive C: 22972.45 mb
- Video Encoding using Cinema Craft
--------------------------------------------------------
- Editing AVS script file

Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 1539589576
AudioSectors: 113336832
VideoPAPO: 22093416
ScanOffsetBytes: 166310
SeqAligningBytes: 10569950
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 8
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 600.00
PureMPEGStream: 1393423059.73
Seconds: 4659.36
CalcMPEGStream: 1393423059.73
Frames: 138592
CDSize: 740.00
Number of CDs: 2
Cut point 735.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 138592
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 2
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 2530
Q. Factor: 30
Avg. Bitrate: 2230
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 (borders added, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\SIMPLE~1\SIMPLE~1.DLL")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\VCD3\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
SimpleResize(480,360)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 0.460
Video Encoding finished.


Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 833239988
AudioSectors: 112607096
VideoPAPO: 11162988
ScanOffsetBytes: 166310
SeqAligningBytes: 10569950
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 300.00
PureMPEGStream: 698733639.73
Seconds: 4629.36
CalcMPEGStream: 698733639.73
Frames: 138592
CDSize: 800.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 795.00
StreamSectors: 1665085576
AudioSectors: 113336832
VideoPAPO: 24037416
ScanOffsetBytes: 166310
SeqAligningBytes: 10569950
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 8
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 600.00
PureMPEGStream: 1516975059.73
Seconds: 4659.36
CalcMPEGStream: 1516975059.73
Frames: 138592
CDSize: 800.00
Number of CDs: 2
Cut point 795.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 138592
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 2
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: RoBa Multipass VBR (a mix between 1-pass and multipass encoding)
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 2530
Q. Factor: 30
Avg. Bitrate: 2230
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 (borders added, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\SIMPLE~1\SIMPLE~1.DLL")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\VCD3\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
SimpleResize(480,360)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

'06:3' is not a valid floating point value
:confused:

[1loser]

Is it possible to incorporate another change in DVD2SVCD for the robshot method that will speed encoding up. For my first pass I use a simple resize and NO filters to create the vaf file. My second pass may look like this:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\temporalSoften2\TemporalSoften2.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\TomsMoComp\Avisynth\TomsMoComp.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\unfilter\UnFilter.dll")
mpeg2source("arista25.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
TomsMoComp(1,15,1)
BicubicResize(448,448,0.6,0.6,0,0,720,480)
UnFilter(40,40)
TemporalSoften2(2,5,5)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16)
ResampleAudio(44100)

In my opinion the vaf file will be the same whether the filters are added or not so why add them on the first pass.

Of course the experts here will probably disagree with that statement.

Bach's response to the last sentenceyou are right here. This statement is completelly, 100%, fully, wrong. The vaf file is a data bank about the input which will be encoded. The input IS the avs file. If you have two different avs files, you indeed have two different input and, as a result, you will have two different vaf files. Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file after you edit the avs file.

[1loser]

Originally posted by Bach
you are right here. This statement is completelly, 100%, fully, wrong. The vaf file is a data bank about the input which will be encoded. The input IS the avs file. If you have two different avs files, you indeed have two different input and, as a result, you will have two different vaf files. Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file after you edit the avs file. I just did 2 DVD to SVCD conversions using a different avs file for each pass and the quality was excellent. Infact it looks better than many 5 pass encodes that I've seen. I get the same size vaf file no matter what filter or resizing method I use. I used these scripts on my last encode and was very happy with the results.

First pass:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\SimpleResize\SimpleResize.dll")
mpeg2source("arista25.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
SimpleResize(448,448)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16)
ResampleAudio(44100)

Second pass:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\TomsMoComp\Avisynth\TomsMoComp.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\unfilter\UnFilter.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Avisynth\temporalSoften2\TemporalSoften2.dll")
mpeg2source("arista25.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
TomsMoComp(1,15,1)
BicubicResize(448,448,0.6,0.6,0,0,720,480)
UnFilter(40,40)
TemporalSoften2(2,5,5)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16)
ResampleAudio(44100)

[dvd2svcd]

Here's an excerpt from the CCE users guide:
What is a video information file ? Generally at least two
passes are required to create a variable bitrate stream for specifying
an average bitrate. This is because the complexity of
images is checked and saved in a file by the first pass, and the allocation
of the bit amount for each frame is calculated according
to the stored information on the complexity of the images, and
encoding is executed in the next pass. Unlike a general encoder,
Cinema Craft Encoder does not distinguish between a pass for
encoding and a pass for analyzing complexity, but always analyzes
the complexity of images during encoding. Therefore,
a video information file does not always have to be recreated
to change the setting of an average, minimum and maximum
bitrate.
A video information file has a history of information for a plurality
of times of encoding, and information is accumulated each
time encoding is executed. This information improves the image
quality for encoding by the Multipass VBR system.
Creating and recreating video information file A video
information file is created by encoding by the CBR or the Onepass
VBR mode. Setting at this time should be close to the
setting for the Multipass VBR mode. If CBR is selected to
create a video information file, set the bitrate for CBR to the
same value as the average bitrate to be specified for executing
Multipass VBR.
A video information file has information for each image frame.
Therefore, values when a video information file is created are
used for parameters which have a major influence on the encoding
of image frames. These parameters are as follows.

Setting chapter point
Setting GOP configuration (N, M, GOP header interval,sequence header interval)
Progressive frame flag
Block scan order (Zigzag or Alternate)
Aspect ratio

To change the above parameters, the video information file must
be recreated. To change other parameters, the video information
file does not have to be recreated. If the setting of the
bitrate is a major change, however, it is better to recreate the
video information file because a better encoding result can be
obtained with less number of passes. When a bitrate is set to
twice or more or half or less than the average bitrate, recreating
the video information file is recommended.


So you see, what you say just cannot be, or you just have been extremely "lucky". How did you compare the two VAF files?

[1loser]

Originally posted by dvd2svcd
Therefore, values when a video information file is created are
used for parameters which have a major influence on the encoding
of image frames. These parameters are as follows.

Setting chapter point
Setting GOP configuration (N, M, GOP header interval,sequence header interval)
Progressive frame flag
Block scan order (Zigzag or Alternate)
Aspect ratio

To change the above parameters, the video information file must
be recreated. To change "OTHER" parameters, the video information
file does not have to be recreated. If the setting of the
"BITRATE" is a major change, however, it is better to recreate the
video information file because a better encoding result can be
obtained with less number of passes. When a bitrate is set to
twice or more or half or less than the average bitrate, recreating
the video information file is recommended.I'm not changing any of these. On the second pass I add the filters and change the resize from simple to bicubic (same aspect ratio). This cuts the encoding time of the first pass in half. From what I just read, I would think that I CAN use the same vaf file. Where does it say if I change the filters or resize from simple to bicubic I need to create a new vaf file? I realize I'm just a NEWBIE but until I hear from Cinema Craft, I believe that the method I'm using is valid and it's always given me good results.

[1loser]

Originally posted by Bach
are you blind? Did you read my last post and don't understand it, or you just want to keep posting nonsence? I must repeat: it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file in such situation. If you edit and change the avs file AFTER the vaf creation, this vaf is a reference about a stream of pictures which simply doesn't exist anymore. You are not simply changing "other" parameters. You are changing the whole source, and this is simply twice worst.
Assuming you are editing the avs file correctly, I BET your second pass is a new_vaf_creation+n_pass. The other possibility is that you forget to press "save" after editing the avs file and just "think" you have a new avs, but all that you have is the same old avs.

@dvd2svcd

please, delete 1loser's last two posts. There is no place for nonsence and misinformation in the Advanced forum. What a shame :rolleyes: Now you're sounding like an arrogant person. I read your post and I read the CCE guidelines that dvd2svcd guoted.Originally posted by Bach
If you think that what you say is possible, then why should I create a new vaf for every movie? I.e. I could just re-use the x-men's vaf in the 1st pass of LOTR conversion. Can you get the point?You are talking foolishly here. I may be stupid but NOT as stupid as you are implying. I consider the vaf file as a finger print for THAT movie and as noted by the CCE guidelines it's only necessary to create a newer vaf file for THAT movie when certain things change and NOT necessary when other things change. Did you read those CCE guidelines carefully? I think you are not humble enough to realize that even a NEWBIE like myself could be right. I'm not saying I am right for sure but your attitude sucks!!! I personally think your last post should be removed instead of mine. I'm surprised you didn't ask him to delete my user acoount also. If you want to be a leader than act it a proper manner and not like you're better than others.

[dvd2svcd]

Well, Bachs attitude may suck, but I understand it, you don't seem even to try to understand that what you're doing can't be done. My guess to why this might work for you is that you probably have patched CCE with the CRC patch to avoid CRC errors. No matter what you will stop this nonsense at once, because you are misleading other users. Feel free to contact Cinema Craft and get confirmation.

Both, cool it or I will lock this thread (which will be a pity).

[chainsaw135]

@1loser Hey man there is nothing wrong with being wrong. The thing we dont like around here is when someone is wrong and wont admit that mistake and still wants to shove useless information on to our users. This community is all about new idea's and the discussion of new or even old ideas. We have a place in this community for people that throw around idea's so with that said i hope you dont take that as an attack as I'm not attacking your intelligence but on that note you are sounding really "silly":) right now and your views make no sense. Thats my 2cents.

[Linux]

One other viewpoint to this vaf-reusing.

Even if adding filter is changing more or less every picture that will be compressed, there ought to be some correlation between the old and the new movie. Every frame in the picture is in the same place so the relative compressness between the easy and the hard part of the movie should stay the same.

I believe that the original idea to this was to get a known quality corresponding to the choosen Q-Factor.

If one is only intressed with better quality but maybe not exactly the same every time, I think that it would be intressting to make some tests using 1loser's split filter method before saying it is nonsense.

What I meen is that even if a academical and teoretical view say it is nonsense it maybe a good aproximation.

[1loser]

Originally posted by Bach
Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file after you edit the avs file. If you make ANY changes to the avs file you WILL get a check sum error. So Bach's statement could have read that it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-use the vaf file after you edit the avs file UNLESS you have patched CCE with the CRC patch to avoid CRC errors. My earlier post on page 3 SAID I was using the CRC patch.

I encoded "Jackson Brown Going Home" twice.
1) using 2 different avs scripts (no filters on the first pass and simple resize) than reusing the same vaf file but adding all filters and using a bicubic resize for the second pass.
2) using the same script (with all the filters in place and bicubic resize on the first pass). The results where about the same. I'm not really sure if one was better than the other, each person would have to judge for themselves.

I'm not recommending this method to anyone because it's NOT the proper way to encode video and that's what this forum is all about. At the time I made my first post I didn't realize it was only possible because I was using the CRC patch. The ONLY point I wanted to make is that it was infact possible because I've done it about 20 times with results that I PERSONALLY thought were good but I know VERY little about video encoding and that's why I'm hear to learn how to do things in the proper manner.

I just want to stress this point, I don't recommend using the patch so you can use this method and I already removed the patch from CCE.

Update: I had to add the check sum patch back because even when I keep the avs file and ALL the settings the same I get the check sum error at 35 % completion. That's why I used it in the first place. Maybe if I did a fresh install of windows XP I wouldn't have that problem anymore

[emilius256]

This are my test results with RoBa for the movie Patch Adams PAL time 1.50:29
2 Audio Tracks 160 Kbps and 1 Subtitle.
Bitrate Max. 2530 Min. 300 Max. Avg. 2230 Cd Size 800.
4 pass, Image Quality Priority 24, Anti Noise Filter 2, Q.Factor 30, Bias 20 [X]Linear Quantizer Scale, [X]ZigZag Scanning Order, [X]Progressive Frame, Intra DC Decision 10.
In the AVS script Bicubicresize is used and no other filter.
The Average Bitrate used was 1680 and it came out 2 800 CD.
The quality is really awesome, when i look in my pc there's a little more "Mosquito noise" than a normal 5 pass, but on my tv is not really notable.
So good, good thing.

[Clixo]

@emilius : to remove that mosquito noise use temporalsoften2(3,5,7), is is making wonders here whith that problem

[emilius256]

Thank you Clixomano, i'm re-encoding the same movie with temporalsoften2.

[TsR]

Hi!

I’ve got some thoughts about the RoBa method in D2S. Tried the beta versions a couple of times on some chapters and it works fine. Some things that I’m missing though is an option to manually set the bitrate for the number of CDs you gonna use. “Calculate the average bitrate that should be used to fill 1CD (avb1)”… I suppose that D2S does this automatically and that’s fine in most cases. But it would be nice to be able to calculate it yourself with a prog like Fitcd (depending on other mpeg tracks, menus, pics etc), and of course you can but that makes it a whole lot more time consuming. Cuz you gotta do all the steps of encoding, multiplexing, and burning with chapters yourself.

Another thing is the part where you calculate the bitrate for the first pass (“avr_bitrate=mpv_size*8.192/(movie_time_length*60”). If you encode just one chapter or part of a movie it would be nice to be able to set the movie time length manually to, instead of D2S having it set to the chapter length. If D2S set the length you will end up with a very high average bitrate which won’t be the case in the final movie.

It also seems like D2S sets the max bitrate in CCE to the same value as max average bitrate in D2S and not to the max you set there. That is not what you want.

So if it possible I would like to see those two options implanted. Would make the encoding with this method a lot easier. For me anyway…

While I’m at it I’ve got one more suggestion. I’ll post it here even though it isn’t in the right place… It’s support for over scan. I know, it isn't hard to edit the avs script and I do that, but there would be nice to be able to have an easy preview before I encode. This because I live in Sweden and almost uses subtitles every time. As it is now the subtitles always moves down a little bit form the preview in D2S so I gotta load the avs into virtual dub to see that they’re at the right place and not to low. So support for over scan is an option I would very much appreciate.

Thanks for a great program!

[Cidici]

Originally posted by clixomano
@emilius : to remove that mosquito noise use temporalsoften2(3,5,7), is is making wonders here whith that problem

im very interested in this mosquito noise "panacea" u suggest.
could u please explain me where i should put it ?

thank you in advance

[Clixo]

@cidici: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22096&highlight=temporalsoften2.

the search button is very helpful also

[switu]

Hi
@ DVD2SVCD
is it possible to implement this "TemporalSoften2" to DVD2SVCD
Thanks

[Cidici]

Originally posted by clixomano
@cidici: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22096&highlight=temporalsoften2.

the search button is very helpful also

you were definitively right, but i dont understand one thing : the mosquito noise im talkin about is the one added by the CCE processing and it's *not* present in the original movie (it's a dvd source), so how could a avisynth filter remove it ?
i suppose the filter works in this way :
original movie -> avisynth + filters -> cce -> mpeg output

so it couldnt remove something that has not been added yet.

am i wrong ?

[Linux]

Originally posted by TsR
Some things that I’m missing though is an option to manually set the bitrate for the number of CDs you gonna use. “Calculate the average bitrate that should be used to fill 1CD (avb1)”
If this is what you want you dont want this method. Use ordinary VBR/CBR and set a fixed value for the number of CD on every line.
If you encode just one chapter or part of a movie it would be nice to be able to set the movie time length manually to, instead of D2S having it set to the chapter length. If D2S set the length you will end up with a very high average bitrate which won’t be the case in the final movie.
To do this you just set the CD size to some corresponding size like 15 Mbyte
It also seems like D2S sets the max bitrate in CCE to the same value as max average bitrate in D2S and not to the max you set there. That is not what you want.
I think D2S is working properly. What max is you talking about.
Have you set the Max avg 200 kb/s lower than Max or have you tested to set Avg Max higher that Max which is inpossible?

[trott]

So if I'm reading this method correctly...No let's start over: while I can see the validity of not using linear quantization scale, as for the rest of it I have 2 problems:
1: to really get the 'what's the average bitrate cce would recommend provided I give it the quality I want my mpeg to become' question answered, should you not put the maximum bitrate during the cq-encode pass to the maximum of the encoder? If I say I want q=25 but 2500 kbit/sec can not reach this quality during certain scenes, the entire thing falls apart, no? (though maybe not by much)
2: my major gripe, though I may be misunderstanding something: At the end there's some calculating involved, which basically goes: (bitrate recommended by cce - bitrate to put the entire thing on x number of cd's)/bitrate to put the entire thing on x number of cd's.
Then you check whether this equation is less than or equal to 0.1.

Now, though this looks interesting, could you not just simply say: divide the recommended bitrate (by cce) by 1.1? (or, simply put, take 91 percent of the recommended bitrate as your average bitrate, and see whether it fits on let's say 2 cd's. If not, take 3. If it still doesn't, take 4. and so on.)

Basically, you're giving a complicated calculation which means: let cce calculate the bitrate given a certain quality, and then make sure your bitrate is minimum 91 percent of that bitrate and fit it on the amount of cd's needed for that bitrate.

What it boils down to is: why take 0.1 as the result of your equation? Because when using only something like fitcd and common sense (oh let's see, a high-action movie, better not let that bitrate get below 2200) I could get the same-quality encode, no?

Presumably this is a way to get something resembling the compressibility check in gordian knot for divx?

I might be completely wrong here, though...(or confusing the hell out of everybody :))) )

[Cidici]

Originally posted by Bach
1: to really get the 'what's the average bitrate cce would recommend provided I give it the quality I want my mpeg to become' question answered, should you not put the maximum bitrate during the cq-encode pass to the maximum of the encoder? If I say I want q=25 but 2500 kbit/sec can not reach this quality during certain scenes, the entire thing falls apart, no? (though maybe not by much)No, because you are using CVD or SVCD resolution, and want to use compliant bitrates. However, for DVD resolution, it is better to set max=9800, which is DVD compliant anyway.2: my major gripe, though I may be misunderstanding something: At the end there's some calculating involved, which basically goes: (bitrate recommended by cce - bitrate to put the entire thing on x number of cd's)/bitrate to put the entire thing on x number of cd's.
Then you check whether this equation is less than or equal to 0.1.

Now, though this looks interesting, could you not just simply say: divide the recommended bitrate (by cce) by 1.1? (or, simply put, take 91 percent of the recommended bitrate as your average bitrate, and see whether it fits on let's say 2 cd's. If not, take 3. If it still doesn't, take 4. and so on.)

Basically, you're giving a complicated calculation which means: let cce calculate the bitrate given a certain quality, and then make sure your bitrate is minimum 91 percent of that bitrate and fit it on the amount of cd's needed for that bitrate.you got the point. These are the results of that calculation, which is not complicated anyway... I was just avoiding to use the word "percent", since a recent research have shown that 4 of each 5 Americans (=80%) at college don't know what "percent" means... I was just trying to help them:DWhat it boils down to is: why take 0.1 as the result of your equation? Because when using only something like fitcd and common sense (oh let's see, a high-action movie, better not let that bitrate get below 2200) I could get the same-quality encode, no?fitCD and common sence are not reliable resources for compressibility check. Example: A very sharp calm picture will use a bitrate higher than that used by a blurry high-action movie. Common sence say the opposite.Presumably this is a way to get something resembling the compressibility check in gordian knot for divx?the main difference is that here the compressibility check is done while encoding.


Originally posted by Bach

you got the point. These are the results of that calculation, which is not complicated anyway... I was just avoiding to use the word "percent", since a recent research have shown that 4 of each 5 Americans (=80%) at college don't know what "percent" means... I was just trying to help them:D


i hope you were joking...

[Cidici]

today i noticed a strange behaviour of the roba method :
i encoded CUBE (sci-fi movie, 88minutes, PAL, 4:3) and finally i got .... a SINGLE 80min CD with an "amazing" average bitrate of 811Kbit !!
i used it with 4-passes but u can guess how the quality is: ugly, too many blocks, poor definition, noise and so on, it looks like a VCD

the first test i made with this method was really good (star trek first contact, 106minutes, PAL -> 2 CDs) but this one really sux.

i know the movie is quite short, but i was planning to fit the "usual" 2 cds, so i must re-encode it with the standard multipass method

so i think this time the roba method failed :/

[trott]

No, because you are using CVD or SVCD resolution, and want to use compliant bitrates.

True, but we're looking for the optimal value recommended by cce here, and then we'll be trying to approach that value as best as possible. Therefore, should we not be working within the limits set by the encoder rather than those imposed by the svcd specs?

i encoded CUBE (sci-fi movie, 88minutes, PAL, 4:3) and finally i got .... a SINGLE 80min CD with an "amazing" average bitrate of 811Kbit !!

When I calculate the quality using this method, I seem to get around 1600 kbits/sec. Now, as I seem to recall, mpeg-2 is a pretty good codec, but it was really designed for higher bitrates. (sat average around 3 Mbit/sec.) I think I read someplace that, due to the design of mpeg-2, it's not recommended to get below 1800 kbit/sec using an svcd resolution, even for scenes with a low amount of detail and a small amount of fast-moving frames. Maybe this method should have an addition: 'but do not go below X kbit/sec' ?

Maybe I should clarify, since the chosen quality be cce seems to be about right when doing entire movies...I created an avisynth script which selects only a part of the movie, much like it is done in the scripts generated by gordian knot for divx encoding. When doing a 1-pass q-based encode on this, I _always_ get a lower-than-expected bitrate...

Could the difficulty here lie in the fact that divx is really optimized for low bitrates and, let's be honest, really s*cks at bitrates above 2 Mbit/sec? (which is basically why I don't believe in its future: the moment dvd media becomes as cheap as a cdr, why do a divx movie at all?)
Mpeg was created for higher bitrates but we're using it at a low bitrate here, could this explain for the fact that doing a relatively low-bitrate encode on a movie which is basically only parts of the movie at set times a la gordian knot compressibility check results in a too-low bitrate?

I do believe firmly in the concept here, but do not believe it to be practical if you have to do a full encode first to get accurate results...

[vivaatloni]

I have used the method with a avi file (divx, very good quality). The movie was 1:43 min. The output was 2 cd's (800mb) with very high quality. It plays like dvd quality on my dvd player.

Very good guys...keep up the good work.

[KitKat]

I did a few tests w/ Whole Nine Yards over the weekend.

I abtained optimal results with:

CCE settings: iqp=5, Q=40, antinoise=12, bias=10, progressive[x], zigzag[x], linear[].
bitrate: ended up w/ ~1850.
machine:athlon 1.4 GHz (roughly realtime)
my opinion: 5-pass quality w/ 2-pass encoding time. Hence very good overall. Car-on-fire sceen: fire is excellent. Moving-crowd-plus-swaying-trees scene: not so good, noisy.

Anything (repeat: *anything*) higher than 5 for iqp gave me very obvious mosquitoes.
Using sharpen would only worsen (repeat: *worsen*) the mosquitoes.

Any comments/recommendations?

[KitKat]

A funny result:

A movie of 1h56. Max bitrate of 2350. At the end I got two .bins of the normal size (825,xxx) and a third one of 927,xxx! :eek: What the...? :confused:

[Linux]

Originally posted by KitKat
Using sharpen would only worsen (repeat: *worsen*) the mosquitoes.
Sharpen sees the mosquitoes as details.
This is the reason I seldom uses sharpen.
It only takes time to make the artificial sharpen.
I can get the same effect if I adjust sharpening on my TV.

[tylo]

Great news, folks: Finally a tool
that does Robshot/Bach in DVD2SVCD!

I know this thread has been silent for quite a while,
but I think it belongs here anyway. Responses regarding
this tool are welcome.

--
D2SRoBa is a DVD2SVCD plugin that automates the Robshot/Bach One-pass VBR method, described earlier in this thread.
Also, read this thread for background info on this tool: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41033

Features:
- Predictable one-pass VBR encoding with CCE - fills last CD to the edge
- Automatic estimation of optimal number of CD's, based on Worst Q. factor
- Setting of exact number of CD's (overrides DVD2SVCD)
- Setting of a range of CD's (see below)
- Automatic credits bitrate tweaking - available through RB's EclCCE.
- Full batch/cmd line support with "one-click" to prepare it!
- Status window - tells what's going on
- Fixes the OPV max bitrate flaw in DVD2SVCD
- Works with CCE 2.50 and CCE 2.66+.


vStrip for DVDDecrypter, is another DVD2SVCD plugin, which allows DVDDecrypter to be used as dvd ripper.

Download latest versions at: http://home.no.net/tylo/
--

[VILLA21]

U forgot the download link? :)

[tylo]

Originally posted by VILLA21
U forgot the download link? :)
Well, I added it as an attachment, but I think it may take some time before it is put up. However, I made a page where you can download from: http://home.no.net/tylo/ :D

Please, report how this works for you.
Tylo

[tylo]

I just uploaded a new version at http://home.no.net/tylo with quite a few updates.
---
Not a single response on this tool so far, although a fair amount of people has downloaded it. It would be helpful to know at least if it worked on your system, or not.

Tylo

[arlsair]

Ok, here some feedback:
I made a small test of the DVD Decrypter Plugin.
First I would find it better, when you also install a "vstrip.ini", so I can make the chances without fist start a process and abort it to create the .ini .
Also a solution (and a feature request) would be a installation routine, where you can ask for the DVD Decrypter directory (like RB`s AutoFitCD)

And then, why do you put the DVD Decypter Plugin and D2Sroba in one package. I would like to download and install only that, what I need.

Beside that all, good work guy. For me it works and I know, many people would like this.

[tylo]

Originally posted by arlsair
I made a small test of the DVD Decrypter Plugin.

Thanks for those suggestions. Done them. In addition, the plugin now optionally configures DVD2SVCD to use it. I will upload later today.

Still nothing on the D2SRoBa tool... ;)

Tylo

[arlsair]

About D2SRoba I think, it is only useful, if you do a 1pass VBR.
For a multipass VBR the internal routines of DVD2SVCD are faster, because the estimation for the amount of cds is done by a 1pass VBR which can reused for the following multipass VBR as a video information file. So there is no encoding of the 1% of the movie.

And for me and many others VBR is state of art.

[RobertR]

But dvd2svcd is only taking the lenght of the movie when calculating number of disks, while RoBa method considers also the compresibility of a material.

[arlsair]

No, there is a special RoBa mode.
You have to edit the dvd2svcd.ini and set RoBa Visibel=1.
Then you can choose in the encoder tab the roba routines.

But keep in mind, that this mode isn`t supported by the mods and dvd2svcd himself. So don`t ask dvd2svcd for help or feature request.

[RobertR]

Originally posted by arlsair
No, there is a special RoBa mode.
You have to edit the dvd2svcd.ini and set RoBa Visibel=1.
Then you can choose in the encoder tab the roba routines.


I must admit i didn't try program that Tylo wrote but i suposed that it's just different (maybe better) approach to RoBa method with dvd2svcd. And yes I know about the above settings in dvd2svcd.ini (i'm almost sure that i found info on it in this very thread).

But keep in mind, that this mode isn`t supported by the mods and dvd2svcd himself. So don`t ask dvd2svcd for help or feature request.

From what i understood reading posts here RoBa method is not quite stable and sometimes can give strange results (it's effect heavily depends on source material) and that was main reason to hide it. I might be wrong of course :D

[Holomatrix]

Originally posted by tylo
I just uploaded a new version at http://home.no.net/tylo with quite a few updates.
---
Not a single response on this tool so far, although a fair amount of people has downloaded it. It would be helpful to know at least if it worked on your system, or not.

Tylo

Hi, it seems good. I ran into a problem today were it wasn't clicking the Encode button for CCE 2.67.00.09, the mouse kept jumping down an inch, when I did a chapter test earlier it when through ok. Still testing :)

EDIT: I just noticed when doing a full movie that the birate did not get adjusted to my max CD size. I ended up with to many CD's at max bitrate

[tylo]

Originally posted by Holomatrix
Hi, it seems good. I ran into a problem today were it wasn't clicking the Encode button for CCE 2.67.00.09, the mouse kept jumping down an inch, when I did a chapter test earlier it when through ok. Still testing :)

EDIT: I just noticed when doing a full movie that the birate did not get adjusted to my max CD size. I ended up with to many CD's at max bitrate

@Holomatrix: About CCE encode button: This is the only critical part of the plugin: I need to calculate a mouse position (relative to the window) to hit the Encode button. I use an offset (about [-80, -30]) from bottom center of the window. I have tested with CCE 2.66.01.07, which seems to work ok. If this remains a problem I can put the offset values in the ini file.

@Holomatrix: There was a *MAJOR* bug in version 1.2: It didn't use the D2Sroba.avs file with the SelectRangeEvery() function in! It just used the first 1% of the movie (not very representative!) -- Please upgrade to version 1.3

However, I am not sure what you mean with "too many CD's" - D2Sroba computes the required number, which is "how many you need".

NB! You *may* get too big files if the distributed 1% sample of the movie is not representative, but so far in my testing, the mpv has rather become shorter than estimated - than longer. You may give D2Sroba bigger slack by increasing the bbmpeg_cutoff value in the D2Sroba.ini file.

@arlsair: For multipass, D2Sroba is solely used for estimating the number of CD's based on quality - that takes 2 minutes. Is speed really an issue here?

Thanks for the feedback.
tylo
http://home.no.net/tylo

[Holomatrix]

Originally posted by tylo
@Holomatrix: There was a *MAJOR* bug in version 1.2: It didn't use the D2Sroba.avs file with the SelectRangeEvery() function in! It just used the first 1% of the movie (not very representative!) -- Please upgrade to version 1.3

However, I am not sure what you mean with "too many CD's" - D2Sroba computes the required number, which is "how many you need".


Ok, I'll try 1.3, I though I was using the latest version, whoops:) and for the "too many CD's" thing I am just saying that I've tried two movies and set DVD2SVCD as I normally would in the bitrate TAB for a two CD encode but ended up with 2 1/8 CD's. I did one movie as 1Pass VBR and the other Multi-Pass, same prob. I will try again using 1.3 and see how the calculations work out.
Cya :)

[arlsair]

Originally posted by tylo
...that takes 2 minutes. Is speed really an issue here?

Yes, you are right. The couple of seconds doesn`t matter

I can`t download the DVD Decrypter Plugin. I click on the link and nothing happens.

[tylo]

Originally posted by arlsair
Yes, you are right. The couple of seconds doesn`t matter

I can`t download the DVD Decrypter Plugin. I click on the link and nothing happens.
Sorry about that, I'll fix that soon.
Download: http://home.no.net/tylo/vStripDVDDecrypter_setup.exe

tylo

[arlsair]

Thanks for the link.
The readme of the DVD Decrypter readme is the old one for D2Sroba.

[Holomatrix]

Just to confirm something here, I can use this plugin, set Multipass VBR 1pass, set the number of CD's I want as per minute movie and due to the technique of the Roba method I should get the same quality as if I was doing a 3pass encode. correct?

EDIT: Well I just tried it with Back to the Future and it picked 3 CD's. Not what I was expecting. Oh, well maybe someone will have luck. Maybe I'm doing something wrong

[tylo]

Originally posted by Holomatrix
Just to confirm something here, I can use this plugin, set Multipass VBR 1pass, set the number of CD's I want as per minute movie and due to the technique of the Roba method I should get the same quality as if I was doing a 3pass encode. correct?

EDIT: Well I just tried it with Back to the Future and it picked 3 CD's. Not what I was expecting. Oh, well maybe someone will have luck. Maybe I'm doing something wrong
This is really not very well documented by me. You don't set the number of CD's. Actually, D2Sroba ignores both the minutes and the number of CD's specified in DVD2SVCD Bitrate tab. It only use the Q factor you set in the Encoder tab. The Q Factor is a direct meassure of the quality that you want. You specify the minimum quality you can tolerate (higher Q). You will then always get at least this quality, but the number of CD's depend on the compressablity of the movie + length. (compressablity varies almost as much as the length!)

D2Sroba will compute the number of CD's you need to achieve this minimum quality, and sets this number for all time intervals in the DVD2SVCD.INI (before the Recover phase). Also the CD sizes is set this way (given in D2Sroba.ini). I would guess that if you use a Q factor about 40, you'll get only 2 CD's with your movie. Also, try RB's AutoFitCD plugin - it will reduce number of CD's needed but maintain quality.

A one-pass VBR encode will not give the same quality as a 3-pass (with the same av bitrate), because CCE will improve on the bit allocation distribution for each pass. But you definitely get the best quality per minute encoding time - by far.

Edit: In short, the Roba method ensures the quality that you want - the number of CD's you'll get is just a result of that. Sometimes it will produce fewer CD's than you would expect, sometimes more.

tylo

[tylo]

Originally posted by Bach
thanks for your effort tylo. You are the kind of "newbie" that should ever post here:D

I have just realised your posts so that I have not tested your tool yet. Shame on me... I have done by hand all those steps that your tool seem to make automagicaly. I will use it tonight and report my impressions here tomorrow. Thanks again.
Bach,
Your ideas here made me write this tool. I had a lot of fun coding it too, because I "break" into another app (dvd2svcd), but it let me get away with it. (thanks dvd2svcd, for the recover function). I'll be reading your opinions, questions, or suggestions for improvements with interrest.

tylo

[switu]

tylo great work !!
are you planning to add avi2svcd support?:D

[MictXP]

I'm having trouble running this. If I run 1.3, I keep getting "need to run CCE with DVD2SVCD" error then closes. If I run 1.4, I get "Syntax: GetFileSize <file>" Pressing OK starts encoding, followed by that error again, which starts encoding again, etc. I've tried using CCE 2.5, 2.66.01.07, and 2.67. Any ideas?

[tylo]

I'm not quite sure what may cause your problems: Here's a checklist:

1) Configure DVD2SVCD to use CCE and DVD2SVCD - AVI2SVCD is not supported yet, but will be once DVD2SVCD support works well..

2) Versions prior to 1.4 worked only for default "Folder structure" in Misc tab.

3) The plugin needs to be installed in a subfolder of DVD2SVCD (e.g. Tylo). D2Sroba expect to find the ..\dvd2svcd.ini file (DVD2SVCD home ini file). In this file It locates the project folder ('DVD2AVI Folder' entry in [Folders]). This should point at the correct folder after DVD2SVCD was shutdown. It then reads entries from DVD2SVCD.INI in the project folder.

I have only tested on Win2K, so it may be further problems with other OS versions.
PS. I will make a version 1.5 that test that all the expected files are present,
so that it will be easy to figure out what is wrong.

Other findings: Using 1% of the movie does not seem to be sufficient in many cases. The difference between estimated and real size of the mpv file is too large. By default, I now use 2% (mod in D2Sroba.ini) of the movie: SelectRangeEvery(goplen*100/2, goplen), which seems to be sufficient.

If you find what caused the problems, please let me know.

tylo http://home.no.net/tylo

[MictXP]

Ok, I found out what was causing the errors:

"You must use CCE with DVD2SVCD"
This was caused by using a Folder Structure different from the default settings. Upgrading to 1.4 fixed this problem.

"SYNTAX: GetFileSize <file>"
This was because I had a space in my folder structure name. It was: "D:\Temp DVD\movie" Changing this to "D:\movie" Fixed this error.

However, I am still having problems :confused:. Using 1.4, after CCE is finished encoding, the process returns to DVD2SVCD, and tries to recover the file. It then stops at "Are you sure you want to reuse the VAF file?" Choosing Yes just redoes encoding. Instead, changing the D2S file position from 32 to 34 lets your tool do it's magic, and produces a fine image. I imagine this is what should happen.

Thanks for your hours put into this. I'm running WinXP Pro SP1 right now, and will probably test this on Win 2003 shortly. I get quiet a speed gain from 2003 :D

[tylo]

@ MictXP: Thanks for the report. I realized what was wrong because of the GetFileSize error. The "spaces in path" bug was also in vStrip for DVDDectypter plugin. Fixed them in v1.5. However, the other problem you describe is strange. I do delete the vaf file, so there must be something else. Ticking off "Create vaf file" will only obscure more I think.. Anyway, try with v1.5. It does more checking.

@ Bach: As you see, there were still a few bugs, but we're getting there. With v1.5 it should be simpler to track down further bugs.

tyloOriginally posted by Bach
hi tylo,

AWESOME work. My first report was using version 1.3. With version 1.4 and the default settings I've got an accuracy of 99.8% (!) in file size prediction for 1passVBR/Bach method(movie: run lola run).
btw: It doesn't hurt to use 2% instead of 1%. The file size prediction will be just 6~12min slower, and the accuracy is realy higher.
btw2: why don't you use the command line features of eclcce instead of those keystrokes? It could make d2sroba even more robust, I guess.

[Holomatrix]

Can someone just quickly explain when you say 1PassVBR for this program are you using VAF (1PassVBR+VAF)? or should I uncheck VAF? Why does DVD2SVCD complain when you select 1PassVBR but not when you select multi-pass VBR #of passes= 1? Same thing?
Thanks

[tylo]

Hi,
@ Bach, thanks for those words - just doing my best. Uploaded v1.6 with EclCCE command line usage. Try it. If you use my other plugin vStrip for DVDDecrypter, d2sroba gives an option to select chapters from DVDDecrypter.

@ Holomatrix: I think this has been answered many times before. SEARCH. Oh, well - with One-pass vbr, there is no need to create vaf. Multi-pass with #pass=1 is really a two-pass vbr (=predictable file size). One-pass vbr + vaf is used if you want to do a subsequent multipass encode. (e.g. Robshot). Under certain criteria, you may then skip the first (vaf creation) pass.

tylo
http://home.no.net/tylo

[Holomatrix]

Ok, thanks, I just wasn't sure what to use with your program. I know in the readme it says you can use 1pass VBR but didn't notice if it mentioned to use the vaf or not.
That is all :)

[tylo]

Originally posted by Holomatrix
Ok, thanks, I just wasn't sure what to use with your program. I know in the readme it says you can use 1pass VBR but didn't notice if it mentioned to use the vaf or not.
That is all :)
No problem,
And you're right, its not mentioned anywhere.

@ MictXP: Found what causes your problems. At present, d2sroba doesn't support use of title picture, change cd pic. etc. which causes multiple avs entries in the ecl files! Use "No PCB" or turn these off. I'm working on a fix for this.

have a nice eastern
tylo

[arlsair]

Originally posted by tylo
@ MictXP: Found what causes your problems. At present, d2sroba doesn't support use of title picture, change cd pic. etc. which causes multiple avs entries in the ecl files! Use "No PCB" or turn these off. I'm working on a fix for this.
You can also .mpg files as title pictures. Just use VCDEasy to create them. In DVD2SVCD just select them as you select your bitmaps

[MictXP]

Ok, it's working great now. Now I'm going to test in on a full movie :D
I still have one question, though: earlier, you wrote that "Ticking off "Create vaf file" will only obscure more I think," meaning that you should leave Create vaf file on, right? Then later you wrote that "with One-pass vbr, there is no need to create vaf," meaning that, using your program, one wouldn't need to create the vaf file, right? So, now I'm just confused.
I'm testing a movie without the vaf file right now, but should I instead let CCE create a vaf file? Thank you!

Update: movie testing finished. Created Shrek, a 1 CD copy, with a Q setting of 30. It actually looks pretty decent, and the whole process took 2 hours. But I have to ask: what Q setting do other people use?

[Crackhead]

hi
I've tested ur prog v1.2 and it worked fine(i've got some other problems in teh last few days so I couldn't test it any further)
I've encoded Three Kings, it created 3CDs.
My normal calculation in D2S would create 2CDs with an avg bitrate of 1900. So I would say there was no need to use ur prog cause there was no quality difference for the eye between the 2 encoded films.
I've used Q setting of 32!
So now my question: Can someone tell me which min avg bitrate is according to which Q setting?:confused:
I think 32 is about min 2000kbps, but I don't know the steps to 1 point higher or lower!
thx for ur help!
PS. Excuse my bad english, i still learn!:D

[arlsair]

First, sorry for my poor english.

I think the Q-factor has nothing directly to do with the bitrate. The Q stands for quantisation and so the Q-factor is equal to a special quantisation. And the quantisation is dependent to the compressablitity of the movie.
Of course, when you have more bitrate, the quantisation is lower (better).

[tylo]

New release - D2Sroba 1.7

- support creation of Title pic., ChangeCD pic., and so forth.
- minor tweaks

tylo

http://home.no.net/tylo/ - DVD2SVCD plugins: D2Sroba + vStrip for DVDDecrypter

[JoLander]

Hi all,
I just got aware of this tool and try now to figure out how it can be helpful for me.
Because I use a very slow machine for my encodings (PIII, 600 MHz) it take sometimes veeeery long to encode a movie in good quality. I always want to have as less CD's as possible with best quality (usually 2 CD's for a 'normal' movie).
With this in mind, I switched off the function of CD calculation and used the DVD2SVCS settings instead. Everything worked fine, D2SRoBa made some nice test-conversions and found some values different from the defaults. In the D2SRoBa Log I found a message that the original values now replaced by the calculated ones. The following Recovery and the encoding has been started well, but instead of using the replaced values calculated by D2SRoBa the original values specified in DVD2SVCD are used.
In the project folder I found a file CCE_Project_File.ecl.new which really contains the new values, but there was also a file CCE_Project_File.ecl which has been created during the Crash recovery with the old values.
Earlier in this thread there was a statement, that the calculated values are replaced in the DVD2SVCD.INI file. I have not found this replaced information. The DVD2SVCD.INI was untouched. Is it possible that the replacement only works if D2SRoBa is setup to calculate the number of CD's??

I cancelled the encoding and used the CCE_Project_File.ecl.new as input and the result was fine.

I'm using DVD2SVCD 1.1.3B2, D2SRoBa 1.8 and CCE 2.66
Greetz,
Joe

[tylo]

From your description, I can tell that D2Sroba most likely closed, or something else went wrong just after the recover phase started. The .ecl.new file should have been replaced with the .ecl file (and the .ecl.new file deleted).

Anyway, D2SRoBa v2.0.1 - http://home.no.net/tylo/ does not have this particular problem, and is hopefully more robust. Upgrade! This version does the CCE encoding itself, and the recover will start from muxing (or pulldown if NTSC). The modified project file is now named CCE_Project_file_MOVIE.ecl (the movie only).

You may want to try the automatic Bitrate tweaking feature in this release. (Only for multipass VBR, CCE 2.66+ and EclCCE).

Please, report problems with this version (or how great it is) here.

tylo

[JoLander]

Hi Tylo,
thanks for the quick response and for the even quicker new version.
I will download and test the version immediately.
It seems that you are right with the assumption that D2Sroba has been stopped working after the recovery has started, because the same problem appear when I let D2Sroba calculate the number of CD's. I also tested it on 2 Machines (Win2000 and WinXP) with the same result.
The only odd thing is that when the recovery is started the D2Sroba icon still stays in the System Tray.

Nevertheless, even with some manual work your tool saved me a lot of time because I received very good results even with 1-pass vbr encoding. I'm sure I will continue using this tool in the future.
I will post my experience with the new version asap.
Thanks for your work.
Joe

[telemike]

Any chance of making a standalone program that can calculate the Q factor and bitrate needed to fill "x" number of cd's without having to run thru the whole dvd2svcd program?

[DDogg]

telemike, you took the words out of my mouth. While I very much appreciate the work done on this plugin, I find it aggravating to use. That may well be because I misunderstand its use, but I do not find it or the docs intuitive and it is just easier to do it the way I have always done it.

What I would really like is a 1-pass VBR diagnostic tool that would tell me:

If you use 1 cds you will have an approximate average Q of X
If you use 2 cds you will have an approximate average Q of X
If you use 3 cds you will have an approximate average Q of X
If you use 4 cds you will have an approximate average Q of X

I want to make the decision how many CDs will be used but would still like the option to use 1 pass VBR.

[tylo]

@DDogg
Ok, I admit that the documentation is really bad, and probably confusing, partly because it is not updated. :o I have planned for some time to replace it altogether. Onto your requests:

a) When you unselect "Compute num CD's", it let DVD2SVCD choose the number of CD's in the regular way, based on time intervals only. (It would be very easy for me to add an input box to set num of CD's instead, however). D2Sroba will now compute a Q that will fill those CD's. So, yes - you can decide how many CDs will be used and still have the option to use 1 pass VBR.

b) If you want to compute the Q for 1, 2, 3, and 4 CD's, it will require a binary search (Bach's proposal) for each, resulting in 4*6 = 24 encodings of 2% of the source, which would take more than half the time of the vaf-creation in a multipass encoding. I guess I could reduce the time (reuse encodings for Q values) to, say 30% of the full vaf-creation pass -- but would it be worth it then? Another thing: When would you use the the four Q values? They cannot be computed before ripping and DVD2AVI has done their job, so you would need to break the job in two.

@telemike
That is a good idea. But it requires ripping and DVD2AVI + creation of the exact same avs file that you would use in you final encoding -- otherwise the estimations would be worthless. However if you thougth of using it for AVI / DV convertion it makes a lot of sense. And, yes for that purpose, there is a good chance I will make such a program. (I actually done quite a bit on it) :)

PS: I've just upgraded my system to an XP2600+, and D2Sroba doesn't seem to work correct for me anymore. I will make an update in the coming week, and post on the progress of the new tool. Your inputs are invaluable to make it useful.

[DDogg]

tylo, don't take me wrong. As said I really do appreciate all your effort very sincerely. I think the legwork you have done will end up being a building block for yourself and others. Yep, doc suck :D, but saying that means I should say, "Need any help?" . A person can't really beat ya up unless they are willing to help solve the thing. Maybe I actually can help on that down the road.

As to you other, actually a person should only need two choices, 1 or 2, 2 or 3, 3 or 4 so that just cut the prediction time a bunch. I do hope you would consider doing this as I don't want to start a 1-pass vbr encode unless I have at least a general idea of what the Avg Q will be when I finish. That would really make the project start falling together IMHO and make a little more sense.

[tylo]

No offence taken - I appreciate any feedback. People shouldn't be so afraid of giving critisism to developers. For sure, we never get it right the first time. :)

Here's what I may do:
1. Add an option to compute the Q.factor for 1-2, 2-3, or 3-4 CD's.
2. Present the results of the computations, and let you choose number of CD's. (maybe with a timeout...)
These two steps are straightforward to implement.

I have an unpublished command line app:
CCEAut <file.avi | @avifiles.lst> <profilename>
The profilename referes to a user defined section in the ini-file which may look something like this:

[Profile SVCD]
audioin_format=wav
audioout_format=mp2
besweet_args=-core( -input $input -output $output ) -2lame( -e -b 192 )
cce_template=SVCD
avisynth_script=LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\CCEAut\Avisynth\MPEG2Dec.dll") LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\CCEAut\Avisynth\SimpleResize.dll") AVISource($input,False) ConvertToYUY2() SimpleResize(480,576) ResampleAudio(44100)
mplex_args=-f 4 -V -o $output $inputvideo $inputaudio

Basically, it let you encode avi-files, and select which cce template they should use, and run it though the avs-file that will be created from the avisynth_script key. Optionally it can extract audio(with Avi2wav) reencode (besweet) and multiplex (mplex). Incidently, it works with CCE 2.66+ even without EclCCE, because it uses the template functionality instead of the ecl file format.

Should I make this the basis for a power command line app that can include OPV (Bach's method), and optionally do ripping and dvd2avi?

@DDogg - Thanks for offering help - I'll take you up on that.

[tylo]

Sorry for my lengthy replies, but...

DDogg wrote: I don't want to start a 1-pass vbr encode unless I have at least a general idea of what the Avg Q will be when I finish.

Well, you *do* have a general idea when using D2Sroba: The Q factor will always be equal or better (lower) than the Q that you specified - given that you also tick on the "Compute num CD's".

The question is: Do you want a fixed minimum quality or a fixed number of CD's? You can't have both! (Actually DVD2SVCD tries to do the former - it varies the number of CD's based on length to keep the quality about constant for any movie, but that is very inaccurate).

Example. If you were given:
2CDs: Q=38, avg brate=1650
3CDs: Q=25, avg brate=2250

What would you choose? If you select 2CD's you should set e.g. Q=40 in D2Sroba, otherwise set Q < 38. You would never need to change that, unless you change your quality standards! :D

[DDogg]

Here's what I may do:
1. Add an option to compute the Q.factor for 1-2, 2-3, or 3-4 CD's.
2. Present the results of the computations, and let you choose number of CD's. (maybe with a timeout...)
These two steps are straightforward to implement.
That would be great!

Example. If you were given:
2CDs: Q=38, avg brate=1650
3CDs: Q=25, avg brate=2250
I would then like to just pick '3' and not worry about much else :)

[DDogg]

deleted due to massive confusion on my part :)

[tylo]

Okee, new release of D2Sroba 2.1.3 is out!

Features
- Predictable one-pass VBR encoding with CCE - fills last CD to the edge
- Automatic setting of optimal number of CD's, based on prefered Q. factor
- Input of exact number of CD's (overrides DVD2SVCD)
- Input of a range of number of CD's (see below).
- Automatic credits bitrate tweaking - available through RB's EclCCE.
- Status window - tells what's going on
- Works with CCE 2.50 and CCE 2.66+.

What's New
- Added setting of Num CDs + ranges
- Added Status Window
- Improved GUI
- Improved DOC

Comments are welcome!

Get it at http://home.no.net/tylo/

[arlsair]

You didn`t update the website, but you can download it directly.
http://home.no.net/tylo/setup_D2Sroba213.exe

[arlsair]

I get an error:
D2Sroba terminate DVD2SVCD, start the CCE and start to encode, I get the following error message:
SYNTAX: Radiobox <WindowTitel> <WindowText> <Text> <"Item1;Item2.ItemX"> <Select>

P.S.: The Titel "WindowTitel" sounds German not English. Is that correct so ?

[DDogg]

:D:D
tylo, you outdid yourself this time. The user interface makes so much more sense now (at least to me). The plugin is working flawlessly on a 2 disk 1 pass vbr encode although I have not given it too much of a workout yet. I may very well never use anything else now. Couple of clarification questions for you:

1> Can you expand on the q tweak function. I got a slightly small second disk. WHat action would you suggest?
2> Expand on why/what/methodology of the multipass vbr and how it differs from the standard multipass in d2s.
3> If the titles bitrate tweak is checked the one pass is unchecked. Does this mean you can not use the two together?

Note: I think D2S has a bug in that it is passing its predicted bitrate to CCE as the max value. I sure thought a 1pass encode CCE encode should be passed the MAX like 2520, or in my case with 160 audio 2584 as max and 300 as min. Tylo, are you looking at this?

I don't worry about it now because I set up D2S for a locked 300-2584 bitrate, but I wonder if you should not have min and max in your plugin? Just throwing that out I have not really thought it through.

[tylo]

@arlsair: You found a combo I hadn't intended: I guess you selected a range of CDs (2-3?) and then selected 'Bitrate Tweak' or 'Multipass vbr'. For now, only use ranges together with '1-pass vbr RoBa' - I'll make that a legal combo later.

@DDogg: Thanks! Yepp, I am quite pleased myself.

1> You can actually type inn values outside the ranges in all the combo boxes, and they're even sticky! (except Num CDs). E.g. you can put in 1-4 in the Num CDs box. :cool:. About 'Adjust Q': You will notice that the size estimation will vary quite a bit, so I wouln't go too far. One Q value may represent 20-40MB.. (Edit): You may increase the Sample % instead. That should increase the prediction accuracy.

2> OK. It is actually NO different than the standard d2s vbr. Use this selection if you only want to take advantage of the Num CDs=m-n/auto functions. The auto num CDs is actually much more accurate and convenient than setting time intervals in the d2s' bitrate tab: Set the 'Prefered Q' and you'll get minimum num CDs that gives at least this Q. BTW, peek on the tooltips.

3> Correct. Bitrate Tweaking works only with multipass VBR - Check out RB's EclCCE documentation.

D2Sroba already fixes that d2s-opv-max-bug: I replace the opv_max value with the proper one, as you describe. Darn, where is that SAINT Smile :p

[arlsair]

Originally posted by tylo
@arlsair: You found a combo I hadn't intended: I guess you selected a range of CDs (2-3?) and then selected 'Bitrate Tweak' or 'Multipass vbr'. For now, only use ranges together with '1-pass vbr RoBa' - I'll make that a legal combo later.

You`re right, 2-3 CDs with Multipass VBR. I will keep in mind. Thanks.

P.S.: What do you think is the best way to test which q-factor fits the personal mininum quality standard ?
When I use Roba I can`t set a fixed q-factor, it will use all space on CD. Have I to tweak the quantisation directly in the CCE ?

[tylo]

I've thought about adding a new mode where you can rip one chapter (using internal ripper, or my DVDDecrypter plugin), and determine this Q. We'll see.

Until then, here is a way to find your prefered Q manually:
1. Use DVD2SVCD. Set encoder mode to OPV. Q=16
2. Rip only a chapter. Break D2S after encoding has started
3. Edit the .ecl file: set opv_max_brate to 2530
4. Run the .ecl file through CCE.
5. Watch the .mpv in media player. If your not happy with the result anylonger -> you're done: prefered q = current q - 2
6. Edit the .ecl file: increase opv_q_factor(I think), by 4
7. repeat from step 4

[arlsair]

Yeah, that should work. Thanks.

[tylo]

Update D2Sroba v2.1.5
- Fixed the error reported by arlsair + some cosmetic and doc. updates
http://home.no.net/tylo/

[telemike]

Tylo- Does your program take the baseline "Q" value and adjust up or down or both? If I start out a "Q" of 15, will the programincreae it to 20 if needed or down to 5 if needed? THanks.

[tylo]

The "baseline Q" is, I guess, what I called "Prefered Q" (hmm, maybe your name is more descriptive?). Anyway, it takes it down, or keeps it when you use Num CDs=auto. Otherwise, it may go both ways. In fact, the "Prefered Q" is only relevant when using "Num CDs=auto", Otherwise the algorithm always start out with Q=32. Note that 'Adjust Q' also take it down, even though you put in a positive number. Hope that helps.

[DDogg]

I would suggest anybody using this plugin use either a specific number of Cd's if they have a good 'feel' for where they want it or use the "2-3" as a requester will come up with the information you need to make a final decision.

The one pass vbr section of the plugin really works well although I am finding it is difficult to get a completely full second cd. I have been increasing the Q adjust upward to actually force a slight oversize on a two cd encode to cause a third partial cd to be created in the muxing step. That small third cue/bin is normally just a few minutes of titles which I can discard thus allowing the second cd to be full. As tylo suggested, perhaps increasing the sample rate to 3% or maybe even 4% might be a more proper way to go to accomplish this although it would take a few minutes in additional time to do the prediction.

Anyway, I have been using tylo's plugin and just doing 1pass vbr encodes with excellent results and I would highly recommend it, especially to those folks with slower machines, a lack of time, or the need to use heavy filtering for problem source. My old 1.4 TBird will do a completely finished burn ready encode on a 2 hour source in about 3 and a half hours total even with light filters. BTW, using undot() and Deen() causes the Q to be about 3 points lower than a unfiltered encode with only a small speed hit.

Although I have not tried it yet, tylo mention support for batch files (how?). Conceivably this would allow me to do three full encodes in a overnight night cycle assuming I got it started a few hours before midnight.

[tylo]

Thank you, DDogg, I'm glad it works so well for you.

I would rather use auto num CDs. It will always select the number you would have choosen manually (if you have set the right 'Prefered Q', that is). Remember, it uses enough CDs to guarantee a certain quality (Q factor), but no more!
I think it's time to go back one year, to the "golden era" : this post from Bach (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=158971#post158971) and this from "the one" (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=159384#post159384), 4 posts later. Read them, and then read them again.

The batch feature is a little limited at the moment. You may only use the CDs=auto, and all the other settings will be equal for all the convertions. I will add additional command line support to eliminate this problem. Anyway. In the .bat file created in the dvd2svcd home dir, add the line:
"c:\Program files\DVD2SVCD\Tylo\D2Sroba.exe" -batch
Before each batch run of DVD2SVCD. I will later add command line args like:
-CDs <n> -sample <%> , etc.

Cheers.

[Holomatrix]

I'm finding the plugin very usefull by doing a 2CD encode I use 3% sample @ 1.1 Q adjust and I get pretty close to 2 full CD's but using the same settings set for 1 CD I will get like 1 1/2 CD's for the same movie. Just wondering why the Q guesstimation be way off for 1 CD encodes?
Thanks

[tylo]

@Holomatrix: It's because you have reached the max Q(=63) that this algorithm computes. That is crappy quality already. To stay within only 1CD, you would need a much higher Q (80?), so there you are.

@DDogg: Sorry, just checked the batch feature. Hadn't tested it for this release, so I think it's broken. Will be there in the next release. I was planning to use that myself, you see. :)

[Holomatrix]

Allright then, that explains it :)

[DDogg]

You know the quality freak that I am. Do you think I would suggest anything not close to "excellent" Quite seriously that is the only reason I took the time to figure this plugin out. Now that tylo has added the new features I think it should appeal to everybody and it is really a no brainer to use. I would still advocate the use of the 2-3 setting for most instead of auto as the left brained, non control-oriented tylo suggested :D (tylo, you do know I am having a bit of fun with you I hope)

BTW, Bach, your mailbox is full, or was a day ago. Heh, perhaps you like it like that :p

[Kandissa]

Hi tylo!

I have downloaded version 2.1.5 of D2SROBA. I tried to use it with DVD2SVCD 1.1.3 b2. After filling in the suggested fields in the D2SROBA window and clicking go, the DVD2SVCD window comes up and nothing happens.

If I manually start Rip & convert in DVD2SVCD it runs till the video encoding step where the CCE window comes up & stays. Then nothing happens.

I am using P4 and Windows ME.

Thanks in advance for your help

[tylo]

Originally posted by DDogg
I would still advocate the use of the 2-3 setting for most instead of auto as the left brained, non control-oriented tylo suggested :D (tylo, you do know I am having a bit of fun with you I hope)Hehe, I guess there's some thuth in that. I have removed the possibility to set ranges in the new release, so the subject is now out of the way.

Just kidding. But, yes, I've got a new release for you. This time with full batch functionality, and with the easiest user interface imaginable for it. You're getting spoiled.:p

I think now the plugin is as perfect as I wanted to have it, so no further developement is planned from my part, in the nearest future at least. Small bug fixes will surely be done, if needed.:D

Download D2Sroba 2.2.0: http://home.no.net/tylo/


@Kandissa: (we posted at the same time)
Read the doc carefully. Make sure D2Sroba is running in the background (Status win + tray icon). CCE+DVD2SVCD should break when the CCE starts to encode. I have not tested with WinME.

[Holomatrix]

@tylo - thanks for all your work on your program but I was wonderng if D2Sroba still works the way it's supposed to if I start it up again but select to do a recover within DVD2SVCD to re-do the video encoding with some different options set? so I don't have to go through the audio extract/conversion process again. D2Sroba should still take over once the recover/continue @ video encoding starts again, right?

[tylo]

Yes, but if you change the video enc. mode, you'll have to do that in D2S after loading the project file when recovering (i think you can, at least).

Recover works because D2Sroba does not do/set anything before it sees the CCE encoding window, and that happens just after the D2S 'Video encoding' recover stage, so D2Sroba will jump in at the right place.

(edit) Ok, I misread that. It was just a quiestion whether Recover worked or not. So, yes it does - I've done it quite a few times myself.

[DDogg]

Yeah, I am definitely getting spoiled now! This is just getting better and better.

It was just a question whether Recover worked or not. So, yes it does - I've done it quite a few times myself. Tylo, I have noticed if you have previously completed the prediction phase and then for some reason such as testing, you redo the encode, the plugin will pick up its last successfully completed prediction data and start the long full encode without redoing the prediction. This is great if you have had a crash or such, but requires a manual deletion of files if you wish to force a re-prediction. Perhaps a requester asking to continue previous session or new might be something to consider?

I noticed a small cosmetic anomaly in that after a 2-3 prediction run I chose 2 but the bitrate shown in the status window was from the 3 choice. Trivial, but I thought you would want to know.

Add: CCE run by plugin should have same priority as set in Dvd2svcd? Or a checkbox for low? Just wondering.

[Kandissa]

@tylo

I followed the new instructions that come with version 2.2.0. I have switched over to WinXP. I am using CCE 2.66 & eclCCE.

The CCE SP loads AviSynth_Script_file.avs, encodes & stops. DVD2SVCD also stops but both windows remain on screen. Then nothing happens. I have waited for around 25 mins.

What can I do to make D2SROBBA work ? Or is it just stupid me?

dvd2svcd_log.txt
================

WNASPI32.DLL 4.6.0.1021
--------------------------------------------------------
- 14/06/2003 07:16:37
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.1.3 build 2
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 14/06/2003 07:16:40
- Free on drive F: 16393.48 mb
- Internal rip
--------------------------------------------------------
Preparing vobfiles to be ripped:
- G:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.vob
- G:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_2.vob
- G:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_3.vob
- G:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_4.vob

Ripping: G:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_2.vob
Ripping finished. Speed: 7537

--------------------------------------------------------
- 14/06/2003 07:16:50
- DVD2AVI
--------------------------------------------------------
Creating DVD2AVI INI file:
- E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.INI

Variable settings:
iDCT_Algorithm: 32-bit SSE MMX

Executing DVD2AVI.
Executing DVD2AVI. Commandline:
"E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.exe" -CS=2 -YR=1 -EXIT -OF=[F:\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI_Project_file] -IF=[F:\DVD2SVCD\VTS_01_1.vob]
Analyzing DVD2AVI Project file
Force Film NOT activated!
Framerate: 29970
DVD2AVI processing done.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 14/06/2003 07:17:00
- Free on drive F: 16662.84 mb
- AUDIO Extraction
--------------------------------------------------------
Found MPA stream id: 0xC0
Filename: F:\DVD2SVCD\AUDIO\Extracted_audio_1.mpa
Audio1 delay: -161 ms
Audio extraction finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 14/06/2003 07:17:04
- Free on drive F: 16660.20 mb
- AUDIO conversion
--------------------------------------------------------

Encoding Audio. Filename: F:\DVD2SVCD\AUDIO\Extracted_audio_1.mpa
Executing BeSweet. Commandline:
"E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "F:\DVD2SVCD\AUDIO\Extracted_audio_1.mpa" -output "F:\DVD2SVCD\AUDIO\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "F:\DVD2SVCD\AUDIO\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -ota( -g max -d -161 ) -2lame( -e -b 224 -m s )
Audio conversion of F:\DVD2SVCD\AUDIO\Extracted_audio_1.mpa finished.

Audio conversion finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 14/06/2003 07:17:25
- Free on drive F: 16657.56 mb
- Video Encoding using Cinema Craft
--------------------------------------------------------

Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 771186864
AudioSectors: 427616
VideoPAPO: 11939472
ScanOffsetBytes: 288
SeqAligningBytes: 18304
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 1.00
PureMPEGStream: 758801180.00
Seconds: 15.00
CalcMPEGStream: 758801180.00
Frames: 240
CDSize: 740.00
Number of CDs: 1
Cut point 735.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 240
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 4
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: One Pass VBR
Q. Factor: 5
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 2230
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (No borders, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
Import("F:\DVD2SVCD\VIDEO\RESAMP~1.AVS")
LoadPlugin("E:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\AVISYN~1.5PL\Mpeg2dec\MPEG2D~1.DLL")
mpeg2source("F:\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
ConvertToYUY2()
SmartDeinterlace(2,10,True,False,True)
BicubicResize(480,480,0.0,0.6)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

[tylo]

Perhaps a requester asking to continue previous session or new might be something to consider?
That would require a user intervention at a late stage. I could make an opition to clean beforehand, but I just think you'll have to delete the files manually. I do. After all, re-prediction is not normal way you would run the plugin.
Add: CCE run by plugin should have same priority as set in Dvd2svcd? Or a checkbox for low?
I don't know how to do that right now, but there is a way if you use CCE 2.66+ (I thought you did). RB has added permanent priority settings in the EclCCE tab :)
I noticed a small cosmetic anomaly in that after a 2-3 prediction run I chose 2 but the bitrate shown in the status window was from the 3 choice.
Thanks for notifying me. I have fixed that. Actually, I uploaded a new release with much improved (and enjoyable) output in the status window. However, I have also changed the range m-n option. You may want to :devil: me for that, but check it out, and tell me what you think.

@Kandissa: I still don't have a clue what the problem is. You say the CCE window breaks and closes, but the DVD2SVCD window will not close? It should! Clean the desktop, and dont touch the PC (before the main encode runs, at least).

[Holomatrix]

Plus tylo can you tell me how to add more adjust Q values. I've done three movies so far with this new program and even at 3% 1.6 the second cd is to small.
Thanks

[tylo]

Just type in the value you want. It will even be sticky (default next time you run). I've also experienced that most movies overestimate (real size are smaller). I think it's because the samples created have very short scenes. It kind of gets more action than the real movie. However, on heavy action movies, I have noticed that the differences are smaller, i.e the estimates are more accurate (which makes sense).

It would be interresting to hear if other have seen the same thing.

[DDogg]

I could make an option to clean beforehand Probably not a big deal as you suggest, but it will cause confusion for people trying to learn this plugin as those people will be the ones running it multiple times. Actually an option to delete the triggering file AFTER a successful encode might be better if you decide to mess with it or a never re-use checkmark?permanent priority settings in the EclCCE tab I.m a dummy, sorry.:o You may want to (flame) me for that Never! :) However, having an exclude option for 1cd and 4 cd prediction would not upset me at all. It just seems such a waste of time to see it do three or four runs on 1 cd prediction using a silly Q of 48 or something that nobody with a brain would ever select. Frustrating really, I don't really understand why you changed it, but I assume you had your reasons. <cough, sputter> I did not realize it was broke and needed fixing as it seemed PERFECT <more sputter> :)

Edit, yeah, I have now been here 30 minutes and it is still on the 1cd prediction and up to Q68.....Where is my shotgun?

Edit 2: I lied, where is the big assed nuclear flamethrower?
Calculations:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
- Number of CDs : 1
- Target mpv size : 671246420. (783 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : 1440810044. (Q=32, 1682 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1146671824. (Q=48, 1338 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1045837197. (Q=56, 1220 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1002937049. (Q=60, 1170 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 983078214. (Q=62, 1147 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 973550092. (Q=63, 1136 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Determined Q. : 63

Well, this means I never will never use the ? and so the change has cost me the ability to make that fine decision between 2 and 3 cds which is what we started our original comversation about. It was just great before this. Iz you punishing an old dogg for not reading the funky readme? (sniff!) :D

[DDogg]

I fear it is broken anyway as it only gives a choice between one or two cds, both using a projected Q above the minimum specified. Yeah, I think you said you don't use the minimum for the range work, but hey, do you know the frame count? Assuming you do, or know the length, why bother with a full 147 step (seems like):) 1 cd prediction on a 2 hour movie if the Q is set at 20? Howz about getting a little AI going on?

I am kidding and picking only a little when I ask, "and how were those mushrooms" (which you must have been eating when you decided to do these changes). lol

Oh, got a link for the old version? This one is unusable for me.

[Holomatrix]

Originally posted by tylo
Just type in the value you want. It will even be sticky (default next time you run). I've also experienced that most movies overestimate (real size are smaller). I think it's because the samples created have very short scenes. It kind of gets more action than the real movie. However, on heavy action movies, I have noticed that the differences are smaller, i.e the estimates are more accurate (which makes sense).

It would be interresting to hear if other have seen the same thing.

I didn't even think about typing it in manually, duh :) the movie's I did were Tears of the Sun and Die another day, seem to have a good amount of action and gave me small second CD size for both. Oh, well.
When I say small second CD size I'm only talking about 40 meg shy of 800 meg so not really that big of deal but now that I can type in a bigger value, I'm happy :)

[tylo]

Hmm. Tough one. First, let me explain why I did it. I though it was frustrating to choose from a range of num CDs, which one of them easily could fall out of the range for usable bitrates to fill up the CDs. You can always do a guess of 2-3, which in 90% will have at least one usable number - which is what you did with the 2-3 option.

The heart of the matter is: you just never want to have avg. bitrates below 1100, and above 2400 or so (SVCD spec. limited). If you set the Min and Max average bitrate in DVD2SVCD (check "Use" Min avg.), The ? option calculates Q values for those num CDs that fall between these bitrates, and thus are usable for you.

So, when you did your so-called "fine decisions" between 2 and 3 CDs, I guess that most of the time, one of them where out of the question. It would either have too high or low bitrate, and/or too high or low Q value.

With v2.2.4, when there actually is a "fine decision" to be made (i.e. two usable num CDs - there will never be more), you can be sure that the plugin will present them as a choices for you - and it will only show and calculate on those choices that indeed are usable. That could well be 1-2 or 3-4.

As an ad nota:
If you also wanted to select on num CDs that gives Avg bitrates above 2500, (outside SVCD spec). you could do that by increasing the Max avg. value, but it would be unwise: It would lead to OPV encoding with Q=1, and pressed to limit bitrates to 2500 - in practice a CBR 2500 encode. I believe that then it would be much better to do a true CBR 2500 encode (experts, please comment).
1 cd prediction on a 2 hour movie if the Q is set at 20? Howz about getting a little AI going on?
The whole discussion above is about putting AI into the app. For example to rule out completly useless choices of CDs to begin with.

This is what is going on with the ? option for Num CDs:
for nCDs=1 to 4 {
-- Compute bitrate for nCDs:
-- if bitrate lower than dvd2svcd Min avg. -> forget it
-- else if bitrate higher than dvd2svcd Max avg. -> forget it
-- else estimate Q. that produce this bitrate, and add as choice for user.
}
If more than one choice: RadioBox(choices)
else let the plugin use the one usable choice.

(the auto option filters on Q values instead of bitrates, securing that you don't get those rediculous high Q values in your estimations)

Here is what is going on in the old 2-3 option:
for nCDs=2 to 3 {
-- Compute bitrate for nCDs:
-- No matter what stupid bitrate:
-- estimate Q that produce this bitrate and add as choice for user.
}
RadioBox(choices) - one often useless, so no real choice

It will cost far less to put the old code back in, than it did to write this post, so don't worry, :D it'll be there for people like you... :rolleyes:

(edit) The pitfall with this version was that I didn't warn you about having to set the Min.avg bitrate in DVD2SVCD. It took it as 0, so you got the 1CD estimation. It ought not be necesarry to do any special settings in DVD2SVCD for D2Sroba to work. Sorry. :) Had I just hardcoded 1000 - 2500 things would have worked flawlessly.

@Holomatrix: Great to hear that. 40 megs is as close you can expect to get. If you adjust more, you can easily fall over the edge (normally just loosing some credits text).

[DDogg]

The pitfall with this version was that I didn't warn you about having to set the Min.avg bitrate in DVD2SVCD. Well that would certainly have been very handy to know as it is the single deciding factor in whether it works or not. :rolleyes: (one roll eyes back at ya :) ) If the min average has to be checked that will cause a lot of problems for casual users, IMO. The hard coding you mentioned might be better.This is what is going on with the ? option for Num CDs:
for nCDs=1 to 4 {
-- Compute bitrate for nCDs:
-- if bitrate lower than dvd2svcd Min avg. -> forget it
-- else if bitrate higher than dvd2svcd Max avg. -> forget it
-- else estimate Q. that produce this bitrate, and add as choice for user.
This sounds great now that we know the secret. Assuming you can use a hard code NOT dependant on a min average entry then it sure sounds like the smart way to go. I do understand what you are saying and yes, some users might allow a bitrate higher than svcd max under the old 2-3 system [add] although I wonder if a simple "out of standard range" warning might not have accomplished the same protection from user stupidity.

[Holomatrix]

I think you guys just lost me :( when would I need to set/check Min avg. 1100? If I always set the amount of CD's I want, can I ignore this step?

[tylo]

Now, everyone should be happy again :):

New release v2.2.6 (edit: updated)
- Put back m-n ranges (hehe)
- Fixed that buggy "?" option: Hardcoded 1000-2500 bitrates only. Status windows will show what bitrates you get for 1-4 CDs, but says it skips when outside the range mentioned. And, yes the "?" didn't turn off the Q boundary thing.
- Made "Num CDs" selection sticky (just as a bonus for all the mess)
- Added "Delete Old RoBa Files" option (another one)

I suzpect an old dog can wag its tail again. :D

@Holomatrix: Yes, don't worry about it. Just set 2 CDs, that's ok most of the time.

http://home.no.net/tylo

[DDogg]

Oh baby! Very nice indeed. I can't imagine anybody that would not find this perfect now, no matter how their brain works :) It seems to have it all now. Great work, T!

[arlsair]

Hey Tylo, keep on development with this gorgeous tool. It`s getting and better. Thanks.

I tried the newest version 2.2.6 with CCE 2.66 via EclCCE 1.5c. I use OPV with the ? option.
After D2Sroba feed the CCE and tried to encode, I got the error from EclCCE "Sorry, only one instance of EclCCE allowed!". When I confirm the message, D2Sroba continues as normal (?). I don`t know, if it is a error of EclCCE or D2Sroba.

I choosed OPV in D2Sroba and thought, it would overrided the mode in DVD2SVCD`s encoder tab, but D2Sroba encoded in VBR. Did I miss to set something or what went wrong.

I think, you can skip some tests of the right Q, when you introduce a Q-range dependent to the framecount. When you have e.g. a movie with length of 80 min, you know, that on 2 cds it will not have a high Q, so yu can limit the range from 0-64 to 0-32. That saves one test.

Also it is a missy (for me), that the status window is fixed in upper left corner. It hides the navigation buttons of my browser. It would be great if I can move the window all over the screen and/or minimize it to the systray in the D2Sroba smilie.

Just my 2 cents ;)

P.S.: I encoded a sample with a nice explotion scene with different Q. Factors from 10 till 40. On the PC I can see a light better image in the Q10 sample, but the Q40 sample is also OK. And on the TV I can only guess, that there is a difference. Is that normal ?

[tylo]

I choosed OPV in D2Sroba and thought, it would overrided the mode in DVD2SVCD`s encoder tab, but D2Sroba encoded in VBR
That error was from EclCCE. When you break the application, make sure that EclCCE and DVD2SVCD really gets killed (task manager). This is also the reason why the mode was not changed in DVD2SVCD
I think, you can skip some tests of the right Q, when you introduce a Q-range dependent to the framecount. When you have e.g. a movie with length of 80 min, you know, that on 2 cds it will not have a high Q, so yu can limit the range from 0-64 to 0-32. That saves one test.
You have no guarantee for which Q you get, even on this high bitrates, although I agree that it is very likely that it will be below 32. But, where should that limit go? (80 mins movies are rare). In any case, I am thinking of changing the algorithm to utilize the linearity of the quatisation function. This will reduce the number of test from 6 to 4 in most cases.
Also it is a missy (for me), that the status window is fixed in upper left corner. It hides the navigation buttons of my browser. It would be great if I can move the window all over the screen and/or minimize it to the systray in the D2Sroba smilie.
I used this special window, which happens to be unmovable.Sorry. You just have to make your browser a little smaller when using D2Sroba. I won't promise that I'll do anything with it.

I uploaded a tweaked version 2.2.6a: fixes stickiness of Num CDs, sets default Q to 40, and limits "?" function to bitrates in 1100-2700 instead of 1000-2500 :D

[r6d2]

Hello Tylo,

I am using your tool to decide how many CDs to use. It is just great, thanks a lot.

I don't know how DDogg convinced you of hardcoding the max and min BR. You know it is a very bad programming habit to hardcode stuff :-)

I guess you just cannot please everybody, but perhaps a "default" safe for newbies of 1100/2700 would be good, but I think it would be much more useful to use DVD2SVCD limits in the general case. May you add and option to override the hardcoded limits with the ones specified in D2S?

I am also having difficulty resuming an encode when I do a mayor change, as the resolution. Even if I start "From the start", it crashes with an address error. I have to load the source again, and do it all over. I would like to save the audio encoding part when I change resolutions, but...

[DDogg]

I don't know how DDogg convinced you of hardcoding the max and min BR. You know it is a very bad programming habit to hardcode stuff :-) That is a very aggressive statement and I do not understand why you made it. I think if you reread some of the posts above you will see that in this particular case why tylo did this and why it was the right thing to do.

[tylo]

I have to agree with one thing that r6d2 says: using hardcoded limits is in general a bad habit. But there are many reasons why these (hardcoded) limits does not match up with those you set in DVD2SVCD. One has been mentioned earlier. Here is another one:
These limits are not stricly the ones you want to use for encoding. E.g. you may want 3 CDs even if that would give a too high bitrate, say 2700 for a full last CD. Encoding should use max 2500, thus not producing a full last CD, but that is often OK when the alternative is 2 CDs with low bitrates.
(edit1)I am also having difficulty resuming an encode when I do a mayor change, as the resolution. Even if I start "From the start", it crashes with an address error. I have to load the source again, and do it all over. I would like to save the audio encoding part when I change resolutions, but...
These problems are DVD2SVCD related, not D2Sroba - sorry.

(edit2)
I'll put in those limits in the D2Sroba.ini file (but not the GUI) in the next release.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by DDogg
That is a very aggressive statement and I do not understand why you made it. I think if you reread some of the posts above you will see that in this particular case why tylo did this and why it was the right thing to do.

Hey, DDogg, please do not take it personal. It was a joke, indicated by the smiley.

I have read your reasons and you indeed have a point in suggesting the default limits, but that does not change that hardcoding is a bad habit anyway.

I was just suggesting a bit more flexibility.

We cool? :cool:

[tylo]

Alright. Uploaded v2.2.7. Added the limits in the D2Sroba.ini file. You may edit it. See the current limits in the tooltip.
http://home.no.net/tylo/
Cheers.

[ch@@boom]

hi tylo
i have troubles starting your plugin

i have dvd2svcd 1.1.3.b2 and your plugin 2.2.7, tried winxp and win2k

but when i first start the plugin i get the screen with the version
-> then nothing happens (also if i try to start dvd2svcd)

when i start dvd2svcd first and have a dvd source and then starting the plugin
-> the same, nothing happens, i can see the systray icon and can pause or exit

did i miss something, or the order of installing the progs ??

help much appreciated
thx

[tylo]

Strange one. I have used the plugin on both XP and W2K, and never seen this. After the splash screen (about 5 secs), the GUI window should come up. Sometimes the GUI opens behind other windows that is on the desktop - so look for it! (or start with a clean desktop).
You should install D2Sroba after dvd2svcd, but that is just so that D2Sroba finds dvd2svcd - it shouldn't cause this problem.

ps: You may start D2Sroba after dvd2svcd as well, but then D2Sroba can not set the right video mode (OPV or multipass) - do it in dvd2svcd.

[r6d2]

Tylo,

I use your plugin to choose the number of CDs, as a "compressibility test". Then I encode with TMPGEnc. I get Q for 1-2, 2-3, depending on movie length and format, then I compare the Q values to other movies I've done to make a decision. It has been very useful. Thanks a lot.

Just 2 questions:

The log file seems to indicate that you use an estimation for the audio file size. In most cases the real size is somewhat shorter (I have measured up to 4% difference). This "lost space" would give you some more MBs for video.

When doing the RoBa you already know the real audio file size, have you thought of using it?

And the other one:

Does D2Sroba support two simultaneous instances of DVD2SVCD? (One minimized, silently working, the other one in the foreground).

Regards,

[tylo]

To your first question:
In some earlier versions I used the real size of the audo files. I started to compute the size instead for two reasons:

1. I thought that the difference to the real size was minor (at least in MB), just computing MB = kbps * seconds./ 1024

2. It allowed me to skip the audio convertion (breaking BeSweet) during tests, but still get correct estimates.
I'll do some testing. If you're right about the 4%, I'll either try to figure out how to compute the extra file size overhead, or go back to use the real sizes.

To your second question:
No. And I don't think DVD2SVCD is supposed to be ran that way. You must at least install two instances of DVD2SVCD (in different directories) to make it work.
(edit) Actually, its a bad idea anyway - it would lead to simultanous encoding jobs, etc. Use the batch feature instead.

[r6d2]

If you're right about the 4%, I'll either try to figure out how to compute the extra file size overhead, or go back to use the real sizes.

I have not tried it, but are you considering the case of 2 audio channels, different BR each? (Just in case).

And I don't think DVD2SVCD is supposed to be ran that way. You must at least install two instances of DVD2SVCD (in different directories) to make it work.

I have not heard the final word from DVD2SVCD himself, but other users have posted absolutely no problems in doing this. Some users have reported problems with CCE's inability to do multiple instances, but with TMPGEnc all reports are successful.

I have tried it myself and it has always worked so far. And I even use the same installed instance for both DVD2SVCD and TMPGEnc! :cool:

May be we could ask @DVD2SVCD for a final word.

Actually, its a bad idea anyway - it would lead to simultanous encoding jobs, etc. Use the batch feature instead.
I do it while testing resolutions, compressibility, ripping, etc. I always use "Idle" priority, so I can do other stuff.

I even burn my CDs at the same time (not when ripping, though). I don't know why this works for me. I have heard horror stories about some of these practices, but I guess it has to do with having enough RAM. Even with 2 encodes at the same time I have 162-MB available.

I usually don't leave two encodes running. However, I let them overlap if there is little time to go on one of them and I want to go to sleep :)

For these reasons, it would be great for me if D2Sroba would support this feature. I have done some tests, but D2Droba seems not to "catch" the correct DVD2SVCD instance to kill.

Regards and thanks again for a useful program.

[ch@@boom]

i mistyped the dvd2svcd directory .. so it was not installed in the dvd2svcd directory ..

it didn't find the dvd2svcd executable .. and the window where you can browse for it was not accessable .. (only with alt+tab)

it works now ..

[tylo]

I have not tried it, but are you considering the case of 2 audio channels, different BR each? (Just in case).Yepp.For these reasons, it would be great for me if D2Sroba would support this feature. I have done some tests, but D2Droba seems not to "catch" the correct DVD2SVCD instance to kill.
Sorry. I guess it is doable, but it would complicate the program a lot. Most people will cover their needs by using the batch functionality. You have quite special needs, so I'm afraid you're out of luck here. Also, dvd2svcd is so cpu-intensive, so you gain no time by doing things in parallel.

ch@@boom: Great.

[r6d2]

Sorry. I guess it is doable, but it would complicate the program a lot. Most people will cover their needs by using the batch functionality.

I agree with you. Your program is great even without this feature.

You have quite special needs, so I'm afraid you're out of luck here.

Story of my life. :)

Also, dvd2svcd is so cpu-intensive,

I have not noticed that, except for the beSweet part, which eats up all it can get regardless of the Idle setting. All the other processes just let me do my stuff. Even playing 3D Games (And I just have a non-overclocked Celeron 1.7).

so you gain no time by doing things in parallel.

No time gain indeed. Just flexibility. But I get the point. Other things are more common need.

Regards,

[tylo]

So, a last update for a little while (I hope).

- Added status_x, status_y in D2Sroba.ini, for you to edit. Place the status window where you like it. :)

@arlsair: D2Sroba now wait specifically for the all the wins to close (CCE Encode, CCE Main, D2S). Hope that helps.

@ch@@boom: Fixed that setup problem you had. The splash screen hid the MessageBox. :rolleyes:

@r6d2: You're right. Encoding requires in addition a lot of memory throughput, which may be the bottleneck, and that may leave your CPU some room. Doing two encodes at the same time, though, will together give even less speed than a single encoding, I believe. Anyway, I think we agree here. ;)

D2Sroba v2.2.8: http://home.no.net/tylo/
Cheers.

[arlsair]

Great, that I can now move the window. Thanks.

But I get the same EclCCE error. It happens not direct after the termination of DVD2SVCD, it happens right before D2Sroba tries to encode the first test clip. D2Sroba skips some unuseable bitrates and then find a suitable bitrate and tries to encode.So I think, there would also a little delay be great.

Sorry for the work.

[tylo]

@arlsair,
Interesting. Do the following:
- Open Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Delete)
- When DVD2SVCD starts encoding (use D2S Recover on your previous project), you should see both EclCCE and CCE in Processes Tab. Check that both disapear when D2Sroba breaks CCE.
- Try also EclCCE standalone. Open the ecl file and start encoding. Break CCE manually and see what happens.
- Please, specify Windows version.

[arlsair]

I`m now at university, so I can`t check these things. Also I`m this weekend away from home, I will test it ASAP.

But I can you say, that I`m using good (sometimes) old Windows 98 SE.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
So, a last update for a little while (I hope).

:D :D :D :D

Tylo,
Great job! Your program has convinced me of starting to look at CCE again, and encode the whole thing with your stuff instead of just doing compressibility check (you know, I am sorta TMPGEnc fun).

I have noticed that as you call CCE/EclCCE directly to do the final encode, CCE seems to run without taking into account the Idle priority setting in DVD2SVCD It this true? And if it is, can it be fixed?

I have discovered that CCE uses a lot more resources than TMPGEnc, and my systems turns unresponsive.

Thank you very much.

[DDogg]

without taking into account the Idle priority setting in DVD2SVCDrun cce via EclCCE and set the idle priority in the new EclCCE options added in CCE options. It will then always run with this priority.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by DDogg
run cce via EclCCE and set the idle priority in the new EclCCE options added in CCE options. It will then always run with this priority.
Thanks DDogg. Your workaround worked great!
Edit: just notice that I'm dummy too. Tylo had already suggested this to DDogg :)

I still however think that, being D2Sroba a DVD2SVCD "plugin", it would be more transparent to the average user to honor the D2S setting, whatever it might be at the moment.

Regards,

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
I'll do some testing. If you're right about the 4%, I'll either try to figure out how to compute the extra file size overhead, or go back to use the real sizes.

Tylo,

I guess you could do it even more general, taking the encoded size if available, the estimated if not. I don't know how your tests go, but I keep getting about 4% less in every case.

I am already a "converse", close to getting the perfect automatic encode thanks to these greatest tools of yours: CCE 2.66+EclCCE (RB), D2Sroba 2.2.8 (Tylo) and D2S (DVD2SVCD). I use CD size 810 and 4% sample.

Next step: go to Avisynth 2.5x and use Gerti's auto crop.

Thank you all, guys, you are really great (en)coders.

[arlsair]

Originally posted by tylo
- Open Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Delete)
- When DVD2SVCD starts encoding (use D2S Recover on your previous project), you should see both EclCCE and CCE in Processes Tab. Check that both disapear when D2Sroba breaks CCE.
At the beginning of the estimation (D2Sroba terminates CCE and DVD2SVCD, starts CCE, input .ecl, saves .ecl, calculates the bitrate for 1 CD -> unusable, calcutes the bitrate for 2 CDs -> usable -> tries to start CCE over EclCCE. But because since the input .ecl the CCE/EclCCE is open, it start a second thread of EclCCE, which cause the error message. Then the first instance of EclCCE/CCE terminates) I get the error.

Originally posted by tylo
- Try also EclCCE standalone. Open the ecl file and start encoding. Break CCE manually and see what happens.
EclCCE starts with CCE and terminates with CCE.

Originally posted by tylo
- Please, specify Windows version.
As said, Windows 98 SE

[tylo]

@r6d2, I think you are doing a common mistake, which is forgetting:
1 KB = 1024 bytes, 1MB = 1024 KB
Rightclick on the mp2 file -> Properties, and look at the 'Size:'

My last encoding: 118 mins movie, 192 kbps audio:
Calc size: 169968000 bytes
Real size: 169979904 bytes (165996 KB, 162 MB)
Difference: 11904 bytes = 0.01 MB, which is nothing.

BTW: I'm using 2% sample, 800 CD size, and get really good results. I don't think it should be neccesary to go that high on sample %.

@arlsair, thanks for the report.
I forgot to add a sleep at that particular point.
I'll upload v2.2.9 in a few minutes with this fix.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
[B]@r6d2, I think you are doing a common mistake, which is forgetting:
1 KB = 1024 bytes, 1MB = 1024 KB

It was the first thing I thought. "The 2.4% mistake two times". Somebody must be making it...

But then, some encodes I have at hand:

Domestic Disturbance, 160 kbps, 1:23:28 duration.
Real Size: 100.166.400 bytes (95.5 MB)
Roba Size: - Audio size (mp2) : 104400000. bytes
Difference: 4.2% slack on the estimate.

Star Trek VI, 160 kbps, 1:47:19
Real Size: 128.791.680 bytes (122 MB)
Roba Size: - Audio size (mp2) : 134240000. bytes
Difference: 4.2% slack on the estimate.

The Roba sizes and movie durations are taken from the D2Sroba logs.

So, what's going on? Let's calculate the theoretical sizes the files should have:

Movie 1: 5.008 seg * 1000 * 160 kbps / 8 = 100.160.000 bytes
Movie 2: 6.439 seg * 1000 * 160 kbps / 8 = 128.780.000 bytes

Which happen to be very close to the real encoded sizes!

So it seems D2Sroba is increasing the file sizes! (I'm using "?" mode, just in case).


BTW: I'm using 2% sample, 800 CD size, and get really good results. I don't think it should be neccesary to go that high on sample %.

810 gives me 1 more minute per CD, about 26 kbps more for video on 2 CD encodes. You're right on the %. Very few movies requiere more that 2%.

Regards,

[tylo]

It looks like a NTSC / PAL problem. 24 fps / 25 fps = 0.96 : 4% off.
I am reading the frame rate from the .d2s project file, but I guess something goes wrong. Please, post if you can confirm this is the problem. (edit) I'll look into it too.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
I am reading the frame rate from the .d2s project file, but I guess something goes wrong. Please, post if you can confirm this is the problem. (edit) I'll look into it too. [/B]

Movie 1: NTSC DVD. Had to IVTC. d2s file:
fps=23.976

Movie 2: Force filmed. d2s file:
fps=23.976

Curious thing on movie 1 (if it were a wrong fps mistake):

Movie 1a
23,976 f/s
150.100 frames
6.260 s
1:44:20 duration
160 kbps
125.208.542 bytes

No even close to the roba used value.

Now taking the "corrected" fps (the original one on the DVD):

Movie 1b
29,970 f/s
150.100 frames
5.008 s
1:23:28 duration
160 kbps
100.166.834 bytes

So, it does not seem to be the problem to me. What is the formula you are using to calculate the audio size?

[tylo]

Are you using frame selection? Found a bug there. Calculations does not exclude the frames that you cut away in front of the movie. This will also affect video bitrate estimations.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
Are you using frame selection? Found a bug there. Calculations does not exclude the frames that you cut away in front of the movie. This will also affect video bitrate estimations.
I used to cut the credits using frame selection, and I had noticed that you don't take that into account, even though you imply you do in the docs :)

Sorry for not reporting that as a bug previously. I found a workaround (not to rip the credits chapter).

Because of this bug, I no longer use frame selection. In these two movies I quoted, I am not using frame selection. So that is not the cause. Do you need me to post any log files? Which ones?

[tylo]

Thanks, r6d2. I use the exact same way to compute the size, so it has to be the input data which is wrong. Check the 'Movie length' and the number of frames in the log file. I uploaded a debug executable where I print the exact input and output values used for the mp2 size calculation in the log: http://home.no.net/tylo/D2Sroba229d.exe

EDIT: Found the bug! I did an integer division on framerate:
nframes / 23 instead of: nframes / 23.976 -> your 4% :rolleyes:
(Worked fine with PAL: fps=25.0). Thanks for your help.:D

[r6d2]

(Tylo, I'm waiting for an encode to end to try the debug version. You told me not to use simultaneous D2Sroba instances :))

To all Quality Freaks,

Maybe you can help me (and I guess others) to find the Right Q for, let's say, "Another Quality Freak" (henceforth AQF).

According to this guide:

http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/cce-advanced.htm


The Q.factor is also very important. You will want to have a Q.factor of 9 or below (represents having 95% green parts). The lower this number the better the overall quality.


an avg. Q.factor of 9 measured in CCE is 95% good quality setting for a max=9.800, avg=2.000 encode.

That is an order of magnitude different from D2Sroba's default of 40. However, I have found some movies still giving Q=47 look pretty well on a 4:3 TV and fit on 1 CD! ("Domestic Disturbance" for instance, whose VOBs weigthted just 2.64 GB).

The CCE manual, on the other hand, suggests that Q=1~40 may be considered AQF-oriented.

I have a good TV set, but it still a 4:3. I want to make encodes which will look reasonably well when played on a 16:9 TV, and perhaps on a HDTV, both scenarios where the encoded SVCD will have to be zoomed in to fill the screen.

(Most DVD players would not recognize the anamorphic flag, so I cannot encode to use one-dimension stretching and must encode and live with two-dimension stretching).

So I'm kind of lost trying to find my personal "optimal Q" without having access to such a TV set.

In your opinion, fellows, what would be a reasonable Q for this purpose?

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
EDIT: Found the bug! I did an integer division on framerate:
nframes / 23 instead of: nframes / 23.976 -> your 4% :rolleyes:
(Worked fine with PAL: fps=25.0). Thanks for your help.:D [/B]

Yepp! My log file said:



Debug:
- Frames: 12425 (encode_last)
- Movie length (sec): 12425 * 23.976 = 540, WRONG
- Audio bitrates 1 + 2: 224 + 0
- Audio size: (224 + 0) * 1000 * 540 / 8 = 15120000.


Guess what: 0.976/23 = 4.2%

:D

It would be nice if you can fix the frame selection bug too ;) Some movies just don't have a well authored credit chapter...

Regards,

[tylo]

Uploaded D2Sroba v2.3.0
- Fix: estimated 4% too large audio size for NTSC movies
http://home.no.net/tylo/

@r6d2: I don't find any bugs in the frame selection mode afterall. I think I did a fix back in v2.0.1 or something.

[r6d2]

Tylo,

Thank you very much for the bug fixing. I had 5 DVDs to encode waiting for it :)

I used the batch option and queued 2 movies. This is the batch file:


@ECHO OFF
@REM DVD2SVCD Batch Control

Start "2003-06-24 18:45" "C:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\Tylo\D2Sroba.exe" -batch -multipass -worst_q 30 -cd_size 815 -sample 3.0 -adjust_q 0.8
Start /WAIT C:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\DVD2SVCD.exe -d2s:"D:\Movies\Star Trek Insurrection\Source\dvd2svcd project file.d2s" -run -exit

Start "2003-06-24 19:35" "C:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\Tylo\D2Sroba.exe" -batch -multipass -worst_q 30 -cd_size 815 -sample 3.0 -adjust_q 0.8
Start /WAIT C:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\DVD2SVCD.exe -d2s:"D:\Movies\Blade Runner\Source\dvd2svcd project file.d2s" -run -exit


Is this supported? I supposed they would be serialized as normal...

I run the batch file and when I came back some hours later I have 2 instances of D2Sroba running. One with this error message dialog box:

Cannot find the .ecl file: D:\Movies\Blade Runner\Video\CCE_Project_file.ecl

It is expecting for me to press OK.

However, the first movie (Star Trek) did not encode. It stopped even before generating the D2Sroba_log file.

The second one (Blade Runner), in spite of the message above, is encoding as we speak.

If you can guess what did I do wrong please tell me to fix it.

Regards,

[tylo]

r6d2, you just found another flaw :o
The batch functionality does not work correctly! I will try to fix this as soon as I can.
I just don't have time to test all code myself, so yours and others testing and reporting is invaluable to get this tool to become perfect.
Thanks.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
r6d2, you just found another flaw :o

Tylo,

Maybe I got lucky and found another one :) Look at this log file from a Friends episode, IVTCed:


========================================================
D2Sroba v2.3.0 - DVD2SVCD plugin, by tylo
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Shutdown
- 2003-06-26 01:45:18
--------------------------------------------------------
Settings:
- CD size : 815
- Number of CD's : ?
- Worst Q. factor : ---
+ One pass VBR Robshot/Bach : 0
- Sample percentage : 2.0
- Adjust Q. : 0.8
+ Do credits bitrate tweak : 0
- Start time : 0:00:00
- Bitrate : 700
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 02:25:29 (209307 frames, 23.976 fps)
- Audio size est : 139677678. bytes (128 + 0 kbps)
- CD user data size : 848966560. = (815 - 5)*1024*1024 - 380000
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 1
- Target mpv size : 689796245. (632 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 2
- Target mpv size : 1519270168. (1392 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : #Syntax error! (Q=32, 0 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Adjust Q: (32 + 1.0 - #Syntax error! - (0.8)) = #Syntax error!
- Determined Q. : 0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 3
- Target mpv size : 2348744091. (2152 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : #Syntax error! (Q=32, 0 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Adjust Q: (32 + 1.0 - #Syntax error! - (0.8)) = #Syntax error!
- Determined Q. : 0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 4
- Target mpv size : 3178218014. (2912 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------

[tylo]

You surely did! I thought I had fixed that one. Programming is hard (and fun)!
Fortunately, I think this is easy to correct - I'll do it ASAP.

The good news is that I have got the batch functionality to work - finally.
This time I've tested it too! :p Note that now there will only be one (long)
line for each batch convertion in the bat file. Remember also to exit
DVD2SVCD after each batch preparation (ripping done).
Thanks for you report - again.
http://home.no.net/tylo/

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
[B]You surely did! I thought I had fixed that one. Programming is hard (and fun)!
Fortunately, I think this is easy to correct - I'll do it ASAP.

The good news is that I have got the batch functionality to work - finally.
This time I've tested it too! :p


Tylo,
No good news. It did not work again. Here is the batch file:


@REM ECHO OFF
@REM DVD2SVCD Batch Control

Start "2003-06-26 13:46" /WAIT "C:\Archivos de programa\DVD2SVCD\Tylo\D2Sroba.exe" -batch -multipass -worst_q 30 -cd_size 815 -sample 2.0 -adjust_q 0.8 Start /WAIT C:\ARCHIV~1\DVD2SVCD\DVD2SVCD.exe -d2s:"D:\Movies\JB For your eyes only\dvd2svcd project file.d2s" -run -exit


D2Sroba did not enter into action. D2S continued to encode and filled 3 CDs instead of 2, as per the bitrate tab.

The only thing I changed is that I reinstalled DVD2SVCD to go to Avisynth 2.5 and I forgot to set up the appropriate folder structure. Could it be that the cause? Maybe you are "listening" the creation of de Video\*CCE file to go to action?

Regards,

[r6d2]

Hi Tylo,

I tried to PM you in order not to monopolize this interesting thread, but you have PM disabled. Anyway, some of these ideas may be of interest to any user of CCE/D2S/RoBa, and by posting here we can gather the always wise opinions from Bach, DDogg and maybe DVD2SVCD himself.

D2Sroba has become, IMHO, a very interesting concept. It allows you to automate the unwritten rules of a good quality encode into a great piece of software such as DVD2SVCD, which does "the dirty work", and does it well.

But there is always room for improvement. What about these ideas?

1. D2Sroba might "cook" some data in DVD2SVCD in order to take better advantage of the CD sizes. For instance, based on the total audio BR consumption, which you know when running, you may calculate MAX (max video BR) and paste it into D2S. That way, if you change he audio BR and audiochannels in D2S, your max video BR will be adjusted accordingly and automatically by D2Sroba before calling CCE.

2. You may be able to apply some practical rules for a faster encoding. For instance, if the user selected Multipass, but the Q implies a BR > certain threshold, it will be more efficient to switch to CBR for that encode. I have read that this threshold is about 2200 or so.

You would get 1 pass (+VAF) CBR encode, with likely very good quality, and much faster that VBR multipass. Of course this threshold should be parametric, not hardcoded. :)

3. Furthermore, you may patch Max Avg. to be MAX - 120 in order to avoid the D2S warning (related question: Does CCE still crash when this difference is too low? I have never experienced that personally.)

4. Also, I think it would be better to have D2S do the encode call (as it was at the beginning, changing all "use" numbers to the D2Sroba selected CD number).

Why? Because that way programs which rely on the logfile, on SVCDinfo.txt, etc., would not find weird things like "3 CDs" when the movie actually only used up 2, or mismatched bitrates. I cannot think of current programs that use these files, but they may appear.

Also, D2S does a calculation of BR to fit the CD which takes into account special parameters such as "Scan offsets", "Sequence headers" and others, which you seem not to be taking into account.
So I think that if you keep the job of fine-calculating the exact final BR for the encode in D2S's hands, D2Sroba will be more compatible with new versions of D2S, should DVD2SVCD make adjustments on the CD structure and such.

Besides, as you already know, I think that D2Sroba is a D2S plugin, and should try to help it and not to take over :)

Well, just a bunch of ideas. I really think your program is great (wonderful when you fix all bugs :) ) and by putting more AI on it, as DDogg suggested, would make it even more interesting.

Best regards,

[tylo]

r6d2,
Thanks for your suggestions. I'll try to give you some of my opinions on them. Hopefully, this is not getting too spesific, so it excludes all non-die-hard D2SRoBa users. I have now enabled PM, so please use that too.

I have uploaded quite a number of releases, and there has been a number of bugs in them. I appologize, but it's the most efficient way to develope this software. To do all testing myself is just too time consuming, and also impossible because of different OS's, etc. So, thanks DDogg, r6d2, arlsair and others for your patience and effort.

Bug reports:
1. - Adjust Q: (32 + 1.0 - #Syntax error! - (0.8))
This bug was more subtle than I thought. I am not able to reproduce it, but I think it is related to the fix I did for arlsair. It appears it didn't create/read D2SRoBa_TMP.ecl properly (number of sample frames). Please try v2.3.6 - hopefully it fixes that.

2. The batch functionality: Did you run it with v2.3.4? It appears you did not (I renamed D2Sroba.exe to D2SRoBa.exe in v.2.3.4). With the latest version, the batch functionaliy works great for me.

Comments on post:2. You may be able to apply some practical rules for a faster encoding. For instance, if the user selected Multipass, but the Q implies a BR > certain threshold, it will be more efficient to switch to CBR for that encode. I have read that this threshold is about 2200 or so. You would get 1 pass (+VAF) CBR encode, with likely very good quality, and much faster that VBR multipass.
That was the main reason I started this in the first place. My idea was to automate as many as possible, decisions you would do manually in D2S. As you say, in some situations CBR is the best way to encode (using max bitrate). Your first point is also related to this. I just never got that far. BTW: I don't think CBR is so much faster than 1-pass VBR, but using 1-pass VBR, Q=1, MAX=2500 seems non-optimal compared to pure CBR 2500.
3. Furthermore, you may patch Max Avg. to be MAX - 120 in order to avoid the D2S warning (related question: Does CCE still crash when this difference is too low? I have never experienced that personally.)
Good idea. (EDITED) Misread you - rest of comment removed.
4. Also, I think it would be better to have D2S do the encode call (as it was at the beginning, changing all "use" numbers to the D2Sroba selected CD number).
Hmm, you remembered that! Yes, you point out several good reasons to switch back to the way I did it earlier. It wouldn't work with RB's Credits bitrate tweaking, though: D2S gets confused when EclCCE auto opens the Advanced settings in CCE. But, I'll think of it...

New thoughts:
Improvements on the original Bach proposal.

The reason for using binary search for Q, is that the Q function is exponential (according to Bach). However, it appears that the mpv sizes are close to (linear) propotional with Q, at least for range of Q values.
1. After two tests, it can be deterimined if Q is in the range 16-48.

2. Do a linear approximation of the target Q, based on the mpv target size and mpv sizes for the two tests (either Q={16,32} or Q={32,48}).

3. Print this guessing in the logfile. If this appears to be accurate, we can determine Q after two tests only (when Q in [16,48]) in a later version of D2SRoBa.

[adge]

@tylo,

I am trying out your plugin in conjunction with jsoto's miniDVD plugin (mdvdauth). Everything seems OK (you need to set the CD size manually to account for the different writing mode - I use 685MB for a 700MB CD as per jsoto's suggestion).

The only problem comes when DVD2SVCD is restarted, after encoding. mdvdauth causes an alert, because it uses "fakebbmpeg.exe" instead of the real thing. DVD2SVCD complains that the wrong bbmpeg is installed with a popup, that needs to be clicked to be cleared. D2SRoBa is not expecting this, so sits patiently doing nothing until the box is clicked. If I click it, then everything proceeds successfully.

The problem is not too inconvenient, as it comes near the end - only the IFO authoring is left, maybe another 15-25 mins. But it does prevent successful batch operation.

Is there any way for D2SRoBa to take account of this? The box is titled "Error" and says "You are using the wrong version of bbMPEG.dll. Please download the proper version from http://dvd2svcd.doom9.net". It is dismissed by a simple click of its OK box.

Alternatively, @DVD2SVCD, is this warning really needed?

Adge

[tylo]

I 'll do a fix for this.
Here are two other flaws in DVD2SVCD (first is similar):

1) The warning for setting OPV mode appear during running in batch mode (make it a tooltip on the OPV radio button instead!) :) D2SRoBa handles that.

2) OPV max bitrate is set to VBR average. Should be VBR max. D2SRoBa fixes that.

[Byteshark]

I currently have two machines Once P3-700 and a AMD-XP1800. My P3 is using 2.2.4 and i have not updated it in a while. My AMD has been having problems since and with this version See below.. I have just tried the new version.

P.s. Thank you for this plugin! It is awesome and i am sure that you can fix this bug!

D2SRoBa v2.3.8 - DVD2SVCD plugin, by tylo
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Shutdown
- 2003-07-01 21:21:37
--------------------------------------------------------
Settings:
- CD size : 800
- Number of CD's : auto
- Worst Q. factor : 40
+ One pass VBR Robshot/Bach : 1
- Sample percentage : 2.0
- Adjust Q. : 0.8
+ Do credits bitrate tweak : 0
- Start time : 0:00:00
- Bitrate : 1000
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 01:21:29 (122247 frames, 25 fps)
- Audio size est : 78238080. bytes (128 + 0 kbps)
- CD user data size : 833237920. = (800 - 5)*1024*1024 - 380000
- Num. sample frames : 2445
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- Estimated mpv size : # AUTOIT - Unknown function/variable! (Q=40, 0 kbps)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 0
- Target mpv size : -78238080. (-128 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : # AUTOIT - Unknown function/variable! (Q=32, 0 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Adjust Q: (32 + 1.0 - # AUTOIT - Unknown function/variable! - (0.8)) = #Syntax error!
- Determined Q. : 0
--------------------------------------------------------
Replace values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor : 0
- opv_brate_max : 2230 ==> 2530
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 0

[tylo]

OK, I'll add more logging output so it's easyer to pinpoint future problems like this.
I doesn't look like you managed to create the sample file D2SRoBa_Q40.mpv.
If I can't figure out the exact problem now, try next release, and post the log.

[Byteshark]

The "#Infinity somewhere!" has happened since 2.2.4 as well.

========================================================
D2SRoBa v2.3.8 - DVD2SVCD plugin, by tylo
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Shutdown
- 2003-07-01 22:24:10
--------------------------------------------------------
Settings:
- CD size : 800
- Number of CD's : auto
- Worst Q. factor : 40
+ One pass VBR Robshot/Bach : 1
- Sample percentage : 2.0
- Adjust Q. : 0.8
+ Do credits bitrate tweak : 0
- Start time : 0:00:00
- Bitrate : 1000
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 01:21:29 (122247 frames, 25 fps)
- Audio size est : 78238080. bytes (128 + 0 kbps)
- CD user data size : 833237920. = (800 - 5)*1024*1024 - 380000
- Num. sample frames : 2445
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- Estimated mpv size : # AUTOIT - Unknown function/variable! (Q=40, 0 kbps)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 0
- Target mpv size : -78238080. (-128 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : 904919993. (Q=32, 1480 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Adjust Q: (32 + 1.0 - #Infinity somewhere! - (0.8)) = #Syntax error!
- Determined Q. : 0
--------------------------------------------------------
Replace values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor : 0
- opv_brate_max : 2230 ==> 2530
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 0
--------------------------------------------------------
- Encoding Movie
- 2003-07-01 22:27:52
--------------------------------------------------------
- Actual mpv file size:
01/07/2003 11:27 PM 1517932928 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
--------------------------------------------------------

[Holomatrix]

Does anyone have a copy of Robshot's encode method? I've forgotten what was the CCE encode process and why or why not this method of encode is better than a regular multi-pass encode. Sometimes doing a CQ Q value encode would not be advisable if you are useing a very low bitrate range. (300-1000)
Thanks

[Byteshark]

I've tried a re-encode using an old robshot (1.8) ans got a

Find Q for mpv file:
- Estimated mpv size : # AUTOIT - Unknown function/variable! (Q=32 / 0 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Q = (32 + 1.0 - # AUTOIT - Unknown function/variable! - 1.3) = #Syntax error!
- Selected Q factor : Q=0

So it must be my machine not a bug in your program. Any idea what could cause that? I Re-installed (winXP,DVD2SVCD, the lot!) to fix it, but still happens. :confused:

[tylo]

The original Robshot pages are nowhere to be found. Fortunately, the doom9 DVD encoding guides includes the essense of these long gone pages.

However, the basis for the D2SRoBa plugin is here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41033

The above thread refers to two methods:
- 2passRoBa: This is the original RoBa method. The D2SRoBa plugin uses these ideas only for estimating automatically the number of CDs needed, given a Worst Q.

- 1passBach: This is the OPV Bach algorithm for estimation of optimal Q (with binary search) for filling the last CD. D2SRoBa uses this algorithm.

(EDIT) I have uploaded D2SRoBa v2.4.1 (http://home.no.net/tylo/)
News:
- Added num GOPs in the '1-pass VBR RoBa' group: possible to make longer 'scenes' (more realistic) in sample mpv's created.
- Speedy startup
- Fixes small quirks
- More debug info
- (EDIT) Added batch support for the GOPs value (v2.4.1)

@Byteshark: This is clearly a configuration specific error. Please post or PM me logs with the new (upcoming) version.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
News:
- Added num GOPs in the '1-pass VBR RoBa' group: possible to make longer 'scenes' (more realistic) in sample mpv's created.

Tylo,

The error in prediction I was getting (measured as unused space on the last CD) without this feature was 2%-4%. (With default tweak 0.8, no gambling :))

I just used GOPs=6 (about 3 secs.) and precision improved 1% without additional test time.

Keep it up!

[Byteshark]

Useing D2SRoBa v2.4.1 - is this enough debug info? As you can see it chose a Q of 1.

========================================================
D2Sroba - DVD2SVCD with Robshot/Bach's method, by tylo
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Shutdown
- 2003-07-03 07:32:45
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 01:21:29 (122247 frames)
- Audio size (mp2) : 78224000. bytes
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- Est. CD user data : (800 - 5) * 1024 * 1024 - 380000
- Est. target mpv sz : (833237920. * 2) / 1.0235 - (78224000. + 0)
--------------------------------------------------------
Results:
- Est. CD user data : 833237920.
- Use number of CDs : 2
- Est. target mpv sz : 1549988839. (2535 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
Find Q for mpv file:
- Estimated mpv size : 904919993. (Q=32 / 1480 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1401775600. (Q=16 / 2293 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1512040094. (Q=8 / 2473 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1516169993. (Q=4 / 2480 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1516684780. (Q=2 / 2481 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1517918150. (Q=1 / 2483 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Q = (1 + 1.0 - #Infinity somewhere! - 1.3) = #Syntax error!
- Selected Q factor : Q=0
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Recover
- 2003-07-03 07:43:12
--------------------------------------------------------
Replacing values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor : 32 ==> 0
- opv_brate_max : 2230 ==> 2530
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 2535
--------------------------------------------------------
- Actual mpv file size:
03/07/2003 07:44 AM 31457280 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
--------------------------------------------------------
========================================================
D2SRoBa v2.4.1 - DVD2SVCD plugin, by tylo
OS Version: WIN_XP
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Shutdown
- 2003-07-04 06:13:33
--------------------------------------------------------
Settings:
- CD size : 800
- Number of CD's : auto
- Worst Q. factor : 40
+ One pass VBR Robshot/Bach : 1
- Sample percentage : 2.0
- Sample GOPs : 1
- Adjust Q. : 0.8
+ Do credits bitrate tweak : 0
- Start time : 0:00:00
- Bitrate : 1000
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 01:21:29 (122247 frames, 25 fps)
- Audio size est : 78238080. bytes (128 + 0 kbps)
- CD user data size : 833237920. = (800 - 5)*1024*1024 - 380000
- SelectRangeEvery : every 750, select 15 frames
- Num. sample frames : 2445
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- Estimated mpv size : 785131733. (Q=40, 1284 kbps, 15703020 sample sz)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 2
- Target mpv size : 1549974759. (2535 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : 904919993. (Q=32, 1480 kbps, 18098844 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1401775600. (Q=16, 2293 kbps, 28036200 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1512040094. (Q=8, 2473 kbps, 30241544 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1516169993. (Q=4, 2480 kbps, 30324144 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1516684780. (Q=2, 2481 kbps, 30334440 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1517918150. (Q=1, 2483 kbps, 30359108 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Determined Q. : 1
--------------------------------------------------------
Replace values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor : 1
- opv_brate_max : 2230 ==> 2530
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 2230
--------------------------------------------------------
- Encoding Movie
- 2003-07-04 06:15:27

[Holomatrix]

Seems right. Your movie is only 81min. You only need to use one CD not two.

[tylo]

The bitrate is just above max (2530). In this case, D2SRoBa, really should have swithced to CBR MAX automatically, instead of OPV Q=1. That is a planned feature .. sometime...

You could try selecting 1 CD: if you think the quality is OK, you can set Worst Q to the Q it uses, but Q's much above 40 is not recommended, IMO. (The bitrate for Q=40 is already only 1284 in this case).

Your previous error: "# AUTOIT - Unknown function/variable!" seems to be gone! The "#Infinity somewhere!" is also gone in 2.4.1 :)

[r6d2]

Hi Tylo,

Some more room for improvement. Range mode (i.e. 1-2, 2-3, etc.) is supposed to give you information for you to make a choice, right? I just encoded Changing Lanes with 1-2. Excerpts from the log file:


For CDs=1:
- Estimated mpv size : 719669686. (Q=22, 1012 kbps, 14489356 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 736739281. (Q=21, 1036 kbps, 14833024 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Q Weight : (720865193. / 49.6688524590164 - 14489356) / (14833024 - 14489356)
- Adjust Q : (22 + 1.0 - 7.00372561122296e-002 - (1.6)) = 21.3299627438878
- Determined Q. : 21
For CDs=2:
- Estimated mpv size : 1282627188. (Q=1, 1804 kbps, 25823572 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Determined Q. : 1

However, the select window shows:

1: Q=21, BR=1014
2: Q=1, BR=2188

You can see that for Q=21 it shows a BR closer to that of Q=22, and for Q=1 it shows a BR equal to the target BR, which will not be reached in this case and that will give you a 68% filled second CD.

I think it would be more informational to show the propper obtainable BRs for the CD number in question, and to show also how much BR will be left unused in this case. The user might make then a decision to use that available BR to encode a second audio track or better audio quality, since the video quality could not be much improved.

Or, decide maybe to encode CBR to fill the CDs (even though it will not give you more quality, may speed up the encode a bit).

Regards,

[tylo]

Thanks r6d2,
I'm working on this right now. Also fixed a few bugs reported via PMs. I'll put up an intermediate version with bugfixes and correct bitrates reports. Then a version that also switches to CBR when appropriate + percentage fill of last CD. BTW: Good idea!
Cheers.

(EDIT): Uploaded v2.4.2: Bugfix release. Hope to release the new features before vacation is coming up next weekend.

[r6d2]

Hi Tylo,

I've been using D2Sroba OPV lately and I still have a difficult time to get a full last CD. I've played with the tweak factor (gambling), with the number of GOPs, sample size, and every time I seem to find the right settings for a fully automated encode (that's what this is all about, isn't it? :)), I get screwed by the next movie, which has some sort of different behaviour which has lead me to conclude that "standard" or "optimal" rules for prediction just suck.

I mostly used TMPGEnc before finding your plugin. Used ToK to do prediction. That program has 2 different algorithms to predict. They usually get good results, but you have to use big samples and at the end it's not worth it. You better go with 2Pass VBR at once to fill the CDs.

The same happens to me with D2Sroba. In some movies, D2Sroba overestimates the final BR by much (5%-10%), and on some movies, it underestimates too (very bad).

On the former case you just end up with a not filled last CD, which is not so bad after all given the time you saved by one pass + 2%*6 prediction phase (1.12 pass). But on the latter case, you end up with a too large last CD, which will not fit, or a small "next to last" which really sux: you lost all your encode time.

I tried to figure out why this happens, and I think I found it:

If you encode with an underestimated Q and set max=2530 (max by spec) you are telling CCE: "hey, fella, please feel free to use all the available BR range to keep the Q". And as prediction underestimated, the movie required more bits, so the final avg BR you expected is overrun.

I think that's why @DVD2SVCD passed avg.BR as max to CCE when doing OPV. That way he was pretty sure that CCE would not go beyond that, and thus the warning he gives that you will not get a last full CD!

And read my lips: You will not have BR overflow!

So, I think DVD2SVCD passing avg.BR as max to CCE OPV was not a flaw, it was a feature, and done on purpose!

On 3 out of 10 movies I do, prediction underestimates. Don't know why. I've not been able to find a pattern.

But don't panic. There may be a fix for this!

What about, once finding the Q by binary search (range 300-2530), you do another search for the max BR which will be needed for this movie in order not to overflow?

I don't know which method to use, linear interpolation, binary search, some testing must be done here.

Any opinions from the experts out there (@Bach, @Gerti, @DDogg, @RB, @DVD2SVCD, and others I may forget)?

[tylo]

If you encode with an underestimated Q and set max=2530 (max by spec) you are telling CCE: "hey, fella, please feel free to use all the available BR range to keep the Q". And as prediction underestimated, the movie required more bits, so the final avg BR you expected is overrun.
I don't follow here, but I have a feeling this is wrong: Remember how the samples are generated: You pick 0.6 secs every 30 secs out of the movie (2%, 1 GOP). It all depends how representable the sum of these small cuts are for the whole movie. If it is representable, the final size will be close to the estimated size. The parameters settings (MAX bitrate etc.) are irrelevant - they are set equal during estimation and real encoding. Naturally, if the target bitrate is higher than MAX, you won't get a full last CD, but estimation/real size ratio is unaffected by that. Here we should warn that the last CD won't be filled (%), and switch to CBR MAX. (coming up).
I think that's why @DVD2SVCD passed avg.BR as max to CCE when doing OPV. That way he was pretty sure that CCE would not go beyond that, and thus the warning he gives that you will not get a last full CD!
Nope. All of the above is wrong. OPV Max should be set to Max BR specified in d2s. However, if the target bitrate is higher than Max Avg., we should automatically switch to CBR. That way we also avoid the potensial problem with: Max - Max Avg. < 130. D2S' warning is general, and just state that OPV gives unpredictable sizes.

I think the best way to deal with underestimated Q's (resulting in too big last image), is to automatically reencode the movie with corrected Q (OPV), or use VAF file, and do second pass VBR with correct Avg. bitrate.

[Holomatrix]

There have been alot of good ways to try and guesstimate the final size of doing this one pass stuff but in my opinion there is no way to get exact estimates to fill the CD's all the time without doing sample after sample and ending up waisting more time doing that, then to just do a multi pass encode. The sample(s) choosen could be selected on the slow parts of the movie and miss the action so then would over-quesstimate the bitrate or visa-versa. With the speed PC's are able to encode now a days, I would just do the extra pass and be done with quesstimating headaches. My 2 cents :)

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
I don't follow here, but I have a feeling this is wrong: Remember how the samples are generated: You pick 0.6 secs every 30 secs out of the movie (2%, 1 GOP). It all depends how representable the sum of these small cuts are for the whole movie. If it is representable, the final size will be close to the estimated size.

I've found that precision increases exponentially with sample size, converging to the actual movie BR at about 10%.

But small samples like 1% or 2% have a huge error, which probably is good enough to find the Nº of CDs to use, but not to guess the Q.

The parameters settings (MAX bitrate etc.) are irrelevant - they are set equal during estimation and real encoding.

Tylo, please take the time to do a test yourself. You will find that max *is not* irrelevant in OPV.
BTW, you will find that min *is not* irrelevant either, and in fact it weights more than the Q in OPV mode!


Naturally, if the target bitrate is higher than MAX, you won't get a full last CD, but estimation/real size ratio is unaffected by that. Here we should warn that the last CD won't be filled (%), and switch to CBR MAX. (coming up).

Good feature! But remember that CBR max won't give you a full last CD either. In this case it might be better to decrease the CD size in order to get equally sized CDs, much more comfortable to watch. Again, don't you just hate it when you have to change the last CD for just 12 minutes?

Also if you let the threshold to swith to CBR parametric, the user may set it to, for instance, 2200, and go CBR instead than MP VBR or OPV.


Nope. All of the above is wrong.

Tylo, just try and see for yourself. You will be surprised. Also check the last chapter on the CCE 2.66 manual.

I think the best way to deal with underestimated Q's (resulting in too big last image), is to automatically reencode the movie with corrected Q (OPV), or use VAF file, and do second pass VBR with correct Avg. bitrate. [/B]
Yes, but because of that, you rather end up going Multipass 1 + VAF at once, almost the same quality than OPV and predictable size and time. I.e., we miss the whole point on using D2Sroba OPV, as @Holomatrix and most users of prediction finally say!

Regards,

[Holomatrix]

Originally posted by r6d2
I.e., we miss the whole point on using D2Sroba OPV, as @Holomatrix and most users of prediction finally say!

Regards,

True, so since quick sampling OPV will never be, in my eys, very acurate, then yes, I would be one of thoes people that don't use that feature of D2Sroba but more so the bitrate tweaking for ending credit text, etc.. There's 3 cents :( @r62d, your costing me more money here :) just kiding. Hope you guys can get something 'pretty close' to acurate. Good luck :)

[telemike]

Suggestion for Tylo-

Can you make the status window so that isn't always on top? When I run other programs I have the status window stuck on top of my app and I can't move it.

ALso, what does changing the Ajsut Q setting do exactly?

[Holomatrix]

Originally posted by telemike
Suggestion for Tylo-

Can you make the status window so that isn't always on top? When I run other programs I have the status window stuck on top of my app and I can't move it.

ALso, what does changing the Ajsut Q setting do exactly?

Sorry to intervene Tylo, I was already browsing the forum and thought I would just answer this, if that's alright telemike :) so for the first question, you can modify the status_x and status_y values in the D2Sroba.ini file to put the window where ever you want and to answer the second question, adjust the adjust Q value to increase the video file size. Alot of times the quesstimated Q is to low so you can tell D2Sroba to decrease the Q quesstimated by the adjust Q amount, so if you have 3 in the adjust Q value then when D2Sroba is finished calcutaing the Q value it will be decreased by 3.

[telemike]

Thanks for the Q adjust info. Now it makes sense. I also think I understand the position of the status window, but can it made to be no always on top? I jsut want it disapear when I launch another app while ds3roba is running.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by telemike
Thanks for the Q adjust info. Now it makes sense. I also think I understand the position of the status window, but can it made to be no always on top? I jsut want it disapear when I launch another app while ds3roba is running.
I guess you cannot. If it really bothers you and you are using XP, you can set up a "Encoding" user to do your encodes, then switch back to your normal user to work. You can always go back to see how it's doing. Clean and simple.

[telemike]

you can set up a "Encoding" user

Ahh! I will have to try that! That way, no one can turn off my enocode accidently either! :)

[Holomatrix]

Originally posted by r6d2
I guess you cannot. If it really bothers you and you are using XP, you can set up a "Encoding" user to do your encodes, then switch back to your normal user to work. You can always go back to see how it's doing. Clean and simple.

Does that only work with XP? because in 2000 when you switch users, all open apps by that current user being logged off gets closed.
Thanks

[adge]

Can you make the status window so that isn't always on top? When I run other programs..

I was under the impression that it was dangerous to run other programs when AutoIt scripts (like D2SRoBa) were running. They expect windows to stay where they left them, and focussed windows to stay focussed. That's the reason for the warning about minimizing DVD2SVCD.

I think you run a risk of D2SRoBa suddenly writing "D2SROBA.ECL" or some such in your app :mad:

Adge

[tylo]

We're getting there, but we must put more intelligence into the plugin, before it is the preferred way for everyone to make SVCDs. (even for the multipass fanatics).

I changed GOPs to SF Range (sample frame range). I am experimenting with using fewer frames than one GOP in the SelectRangeEvery, in order to get a lower "every" number with the same Sample %. That gives a better distribution of the samples (every 17 sec, with 2%), but makes awfull short cuts.

I've tried 4, 5, and 8 frames, and it seems 8 works quite well (instead of 15). You'll need to boost the Adjust Q a bit, but it should give more stable estimations. I have also figured out another way to safely cut down number of tests by 1-2 (from 6).

I'll throw out the version for you to play with when I got time.

[r6d2]

@Holomatrix: I have not tried on 2000, but on XP you have to switch users, not log off and logon again (both users keep running their own aps).

@adge: I have only experienced this in very unusual tight CPU conditions, otherwise it gets data input right. However, Tylo suggests that you "don't touch the keyboard while D2Sroba is doing its magic", but that is a only during short periods of time.

@Bach:
Originally posted by Bach
- the last pages of CCE 2.66 manual are a good support of my method implemented by tylo. In other words: it is the prove that my method works as it is supposed to do.

Yes. And they show why.


- D2S passing AVG as MAX is deadly wrong, but have a reason to be there.

Didn't know that story, but makes a lot of sense and that was just my point. I think that once you find Q for 300-2530 then you can constrain MAX a bit to a value between AVG and 2530 that keeps the Q but also allows to get a VBR stream instead of CBR, and with maximum precision.


- For this kind of statistics an error prediction of 5% is not bad in any way.**** However, it is a pain in the a** if you are a "full fill disk freak". It could be easely fixed though if it was possible to switch the order of encoding used by D2S. Lets do the algorithm:

I guess I'm kind of a full disk freak then :). The point is that getting a 5% low is acceptable tradeoff for the time saved, but when you get 5% high, you've lost your time.
Besides, what your algorithm does is something like: "Hey, fella, I'm sorry I did not get it right this time. But you know what? I can increase the BR on the audio just for you to not waste some space".
And the point is that audio is probably OK already, and the unused bitrate was meant to get the video the best you can get.
It's like putting on a second T-shirt instead of a coat before going out on a rainy day.

- to use sample frames with lenghts not equal to (multiple) of GOP lenghts is a big NO NO.

I understand the theory behind what you explain (I guess Tylo does too, since we talked about it), but GOPs are not equally sized, anyway, so how can you write a SelectRangeEvery call with guarantied full GOPs?

****edit: it is not possible, in any way, to do a highly precise size prediction using pure statistics. If it was, I am 100% sure the CCE programmers would implement this method internally and call it "fast 2 pass VBR" or something like that.

You know what they say, "Statistics is the science that proves that if my neighbor has two cars and I have none, then we both have one car, on average".

However, I think you can get any precision you want using an heuristic. To prove the point: Iterate with sample=100% until error is 0.5% :)

More down to earth, Q. factor is a function of many variables: the sample size, the size of each clip, the MAX and MIN values, etc. If we narrow that to a set of variables, with their range of validity, that sistematically affect all movies the same way, we will get the precision we want and only will have to take care of how much time do we wan to invest on the prediction phase.

This is very easy to be done internally.

Maybe they have not thought of it. Remember they wrote a general purpose encoder. The only ones who are, in practice, limited by space constraints, are we who use discrete size CDs. If size was not a constraint, you would probably just go with Q=1 and get the best picture you can get with 1 single pass.

[tylo]

And the point is that audio is probably OK already, and the unused bitrate was meant to get the video the best you can get.
I have to agree with r6d2 here.
to use sample frames with lenghts not equal to (multiple) of GOP lenghts is a big NO NO. If you sample at 6 frames, for example, you will have a scene change every 6 frames. CCE will see this scene change and automatically code an I picture, starting a new GOP, and doesn't matter the GOP size that you have set in CCE. An I picture have a size MUCH bigger than a P picture, and even bigger than a B picture. So, The size of the sample_encode will be OVERESTIMATED by an unknown factor.
True - I see your point. I only wanted to test it. My hypothesis was that if the "unknown factor" is ~ constant then we could still use the results: by compensating for it afterwards (factor could be found by trial). But, like I said, I haven't tested it much.

(EDIT2): @Bach: Let's say 8 frames in each sample. That means that 12.5% of the frames are I-pictures (?) (It's not likely that there are many additional in the short samples). We could then compensate for the extra size of the I-pictures in our estimation.... Remember our main problem: Nonconsistent estimates because of too few samples. The length of them doesn't help us that much. (Hey, it's really just a shot in the dark) :)

@r6d2: (EDIT1): Removed statement about GOP sizes.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Bach
What my algo says is "hey fella, I feel you want some psychological compensation in order to not feel bad because statistics is not as precise as you want".

Statistics, my dear Bach, can be as precise as you want. And you can always run tests on the data obtained to check its validity over a given universe.

I respect your knowledge very much and I will not enter a flame war with you, nor a right/wrong discussion where the only purpose is to say the last word. (I've seen what you like to do to people that dares to defy your absolute statements :))

Anyway, if you feel bad because your encode have not EXACTLY the size you want, and you must do a 2nd attempt, simply switch to multipass VBR, set 1 pass, set the right AVR, reuse the vaf and do your encoding. Now you have a "tweeked" 2pass ROBA method, better than any 5 pass.

This is a very good idea exposed by Tylo before, and will fix the cases where an underestimation occurs. In my experience, 3 out of 10. D2Sroba can do that automatically.

Wrong. No one of those variables have anything to do with the way the Q.factor is used by CCE. min and max are simply thresholds. Q.factor is just a function of the compressibity of the movie.

I think I read a post of yours that states they even weight more that Q, but anyway, Q is indeed a function of the compressibility of the movie, given MIN and MAX. As DDogg found, if you change the MIN and MAX you get different Qs for the same sample or even the same movie.

And the explanation is simple. I think CCE expects you to make an educated guess on what MIN and MAX should be for the movie you are encoding and the Q you expect. Otherwise, what happens if you say Q=1, MIN=MAX=300? Can't be done! (unless you want to go for a huge MPV).

TMPGEnc, in CQ mode, does something similar. I've experienced similar behaviours moving MAX instead of the CQ factor. I've found that it gives better results to use, for instance, CQ=80 and the propper MAX than MAX=2530 and a lower CQ.

I think CCE and TMPGenc assume you will be "educated" on the range you give as input, in order to remain within specs.

Also, it is obvious that Q depends on sample size. Otherwise, we should just go for sample size="1 GOP", shouldn't we?

Why a "general purpose encoder" could not have a "sampling prediction pass"? Wrong. CCE is used by DVD houses mainly. They are also constrained by "discrete size DVD's".

I sincerely doubt DVD houses use OPV :)

If you encode a private video using Q=1, min=0, max=15000 at DVD resolution you will get an AVR higher than the maximum allowed for a DVD.
Sorry, that would not be an educated MAX for a DVD :)

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Bach
Sorry. I cannot argue about Statistics with a kid who believe Statistics may become an exact science. Educate yourself on the subject.

Well, I must confess I expected more from you. But looking on the positive side, no newbie with ideas gets anywhere in this forum without being insulted by Bach, so I guess that finally, and only after a couple of months, I have become "someone": a kid.

Makes me very proud indeed.

The "tweaked" 2 pass was exposed by me before than tylo.

Nobody here is trying to take away the authoring of your ideas. In fact, your original RoBa algo was the first to use 100% sample size (axiomatically wrong :)).

Q do not depends on sample size. The statistics depends on sample size. And I will not argue about statistics with you anymore.

Please don't, provided that we are not able to find Q for MIN=0 and MAX=infinity, which is the absolute Q your non-automatable-super-fast algo finds, let's just assume that we are doomed to find Q(MIN, MAX, sample size), which is the objective of D2Sroba for OPV.

(I hope you will not dislike Tylo uses the name of your method on his plugin, being it so limited and unable to cope with real Qs. If you do, please tell him. I'm sure he can find a better name.)

(Just kidding :))

But as I said, I expected more from you. Maybe answering how to get a GOP-filled sample, or giving us hints on how to build a good and representative sample. But I guess you prefer to stay on your track and disregard anybody doing samples < 100% and trying to fine tune a utility that might save hundreds of hours to all DVD2SVCD users.

As you said in some earlier post, what a shame.

(No kidding :))

PD: And about the exact nature of statistics (maybe you are confusing terms like precision and exactitude), which you just discovered is not such, we might as well ask the Nobel Commitee to revoke all Physics prizes related to Quantum Mechanics awarded already. They may even donate something to this community. :D

[tylo]

Can someone explain what happened to Bach's posts? If he removed them himself, I will seriously consider to change the name of the plugin, and give him no credits at all. :mad: Moderators, are you reading this?

Anyway, my experimenting with smaller ranges than GOP sizes are over, and the conclusion is that it doesn't work well (no suprise). However, I think that 1 GOP is best to use, because it gives the best sample distribution, so I may remove the GOPs setting as well. (it was good for experimenting).

I work on many enhancements on D2SRoBa now, so please be patient with new updates.

[pacohaas]

looks like he took off, and took his "sacred writings" with him....seems like that kid back on the playground who said: "I'm taking my ball and going home" when things weren't going just his way.

[telemike]

Keep up the imporvements Tylo! I am starting to like your plugin. Has worked good for teh three last encodes I did. Filled up the Cd's to the brim! Cool. :D

[davidh44]

I'm a big fan of Tylo's D2SRoBa plugin, and actually didn't start using DVD2SVCD until I discovered his plugin. It's newbie-friendly for doing a quick and efficient OPV encode. :D

With the default OPV 'sample size'/'adjust Q' settings and 'num of Cds' set to 2, I typically end up with a second disc that's ~730MB out of 800MB. Every now and then, I get an encode which fills the second disc almost completely. So I've been hesitant to tweak 'adjust Q' on new encodes, as I might end up with a resulting file size too big to fit on 2 CDs (happened once). So for me, there's been little in-between: the second disc has been either right around 730MB or close to 800MB. Good enough for me. :)

[telemike]

Is the defaul adjust Q = .8?

I think I bumped it up to 1.0 and nearly filled the second disc.

[r6d2]

However, I think that 1 GOP is best to use, because it gives the best sample distribution, so I may remove the GOPs setting as well. (it was good for experimenting).

Please, leave it there... My tests have been inconclusive so far, but I'm getting closer.

Also, I found a workaround for D2Sroba Multipass not using the maximum BR that DVD2SVCD calculates if it were to do the actual encode (with scan offsets and align headers off):

I set the CD size 6MB bigger in D2Sroba than in DVD2SVCD. So, believeing it has more space, D2Sroba calculates a bigger BR.

This works but requires manual tweaking. If you just forget to uncheck scan offsets and header aligning in DVD2SVCD you are screwed and end up with too big images.

I hope you can fix this in other way, like asking DVD2SVCD the actual calculated BR, and still doing the encode yourself.

Regards,

[DDogg]

Gee, he was Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and I seem to remember one more nic. I guess we wait for the next composer to be reincarnated unless this stunt gets him banned for life. He is a brilliant guy, but I fear he is an egg short of a full omelet.

[tylo]

Yeah, someone should write his memoars. But, rightfully, inbetween his ill-tempered insults and childish outbursts, one could find brilliant ideas and knowledge. Too bad for him.

Talking about brilliant. I've modified the binary search algorithm, so that it reduces the tests by normally 1, often 2, and sometimes 3. I strongly believe this algorithm is robust, but if it should fail (it won't), increase the safety_zone: 100 would give the old behaviour (always 6 tests). However, do not lower the safety_zone.
I'll upload it today.

@r6d2: I now repeatedly read the sample frame num from the tmp ecl file until success (EclCCE done writing it), so hopefully this works for you now.

I'm off on three weeks holiday this weekend. :cool: but I'll check in now and then.

[tylo]

This brings up the general question: Should it be allowed to edit old posts?

This must surely have been widely discussed before, but I still see no good reasons for it. Except for fixing typos, it only allows tampering with the past. Allowing editing some hours after should be OK, but even no editing would be better than the current arrangement. We have the preview function, which should be enough.

Technically this should be a simple restriction based on time.

A post that contains the status of a software project, within a sticky thread, should be made editable. That wouldn't impose much extra overhead, because making the thread sticky requires an intervention from a moderator anyway.

(EDIT): Well, here I used it. Obviously it should be allowed to ADD information, but that would maybe have a few tecnhical issues. (To be honest, I changed a few words in the original text too). ;) Also, it is more OK to edit when you have the last post, IMO. I don't expect many to go berserk like Bach, but I believe that most people would prefere that at least the past is predictable.

As a funny sidenote, Bach had already removed the mentioned "first post" the 6th of July, replaced with the message "gone with the wind". Two days after he still helped us out here, from fumbling in the dark. He later realized that to erase oneself, also the sweet farewell letter had to go.

If you switch users somehow AutoIt/D2Sroba thinks the app is no longer there and shuts down itself.
I will fix this simple issue after vacation.

[pacohaas]

Ok, the forum backup was from mid-May, so I was able to "restore" Bach's important posts from before then. However, the only way to keep them "inline" was to edit existing posts, so I've indicated where I've done that with red headings. I trust that no other members will be as selfish as Bach and delete that info.

If anyone has any important bach posts beyond the last one I inserted, PM them to me with info on where it should be placed.

[homerjay]

has anybody toyed with 1cd creation at all - im using d2sroba 1.44 selecting 1cd
sample 3%
gop 1
adjust q 0.8
and i am getting a second mpg between 150 and 250 mb depending on filters used :confused:

[Holomatrix]

I have a question on how the '?' feature works. I thought it was supposed to give you an option of picking what Q you want to use if the quesstimated Q was going to be not what you set as worst Q, but when I select '?', my encode just goes all the way through with a Q of 1. Is there away for D2Sroba to automatically select a 2 CD encode if the quesstimated Q is going to higher than what I pick as my worst Q?
Plus it would be good for D2Sroba to ask the user what bitrate to use on a given Q because I did two different movies of equil length and one was encode at Q=25 Bitrate=940 and the other movie encoded at Q=63 Bitrate=1623, weird, I would of liked it if D2Sroba gave me an option to decrease the picked Q and decrease the bitrate on the second movie or poped up a window with various Q/Bitrate option I could choose from based on the movie examination that D2Sroba did.


Hope that makes sence :) Thanks

[telemike]

I am using a sample of 2%, Q adjust of .8

I have done a couple 1-cd encodes using CVD format (352x480, 128K audio) with d2sroba 2.4.4 and it works pretty good. You need to change the adjust Q number so it doesn't overflow 1-cd.

http://home.no.net/tylo/

[homerjay]

thanks telemike which way do you adjust the queue for longer films up or down ?

[telemike]

ALso, what does changing the Ajsut Q setting do exactly?
----------------------------------------------------------------------adjust the adjust Q value to increase the video file size. Alot of times the quesstimated Q is too low so you can tell D2Sroba to decrease the Q quesstimated by the adjust Q amount, so if you have 3 in the adjust Q value then when D2Sroba is finished calcutaing the Q value it will be decreased by 3.

[telemike]

Another option is to change the 800MB cd size down to 790MB or some lower number to give you some safety room.

[homerjay]

hi telelmike firstly i gave your advise a go and dropped output to a vcd - end result fitted onto 1 cd with 30mb to spare when selecting a 740mb cd size ( THANKS :D )

but i really want to produce svcd's so i did some more testing and it looks to me like d2sroba isnt calculating the bitrate correctly for 1cd svcd quality i will give egs of my last couple of tests
106 minutes onto 1 800mb with 128kbit audio cd was searching for a bitrate of 843 (bitrate calc says 892)
but when it started encoding it settled on a Q of 63 and a bitrate of 1014 (too high)

so i cancelled out and changed the cd size to 700 just to see what happened overnight
d2sroba log shows

Calculations:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 1
- Target mpv size : 613427641. (791 kbps)

which is correct but then settles on

Determined Q. : 63
--------------------------------------------------------
Replace values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor : 63
- opv_brate_max : 915 ==> 2530
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 791
--------------------------------------------------------
- Encoding Movie
- 2003-07-24 01:03:41
--------------------------------------------------------
- Actual mpv file size:
24/07/2003 04:19 763151664 Encoded_Video_CCE_NTSC.mpv

hope this info helps

[jsquare]

Same problem here with Saving Private Ryan for 2x800MB SVCDs, I know it's a long movie (2:49) but I can't get D2SRoba v2.4.4 to calculate the correct bitrate, it says target bitrate=1,153 when testing, but when CCE starts the bitrate goes up to 1,650 and end up with a 2nd file that's 1.3GB in size, D2S stops with an error before creating the image for the 2nd CD. I also tried setting the CD size to 700MB with similar results.

Update1:
Tested with VCD resolution 320x240 2x740MB and the bitrate calculation worked fine, but I need SVCD and not VCD settings. It may be a bug, I will try CVD next.

Update2:
Same problem with CVD, CD1=750MB CD2=980MB. The video quality was terrible.

[telemike]

Have you tried the "AUTO" setting and set your worst "Q" level at around 30?

[homerjay]

sorry i think im being dumb :o
if when it is calculating the Q it settles on 63 for any of the longer 1cd conversions i have been doing
how is setting the Q to 30 going to produce a 1cd encode
i would give it a go but i am in work and currently and left my home pc doing a conversion based on number of cd's 1 sample 3% (have found this helps) and adjust Q of 0.7

*edit 13.10 gmt * well normally when doing a conversion i cant connect in but have managed to and aborted my current attempt at 11% the final size for the mpv before audio added would be 755 mb using a Q of 63 and a bitrate of 928

have set as you have suggested and started it up again ( its now i wish i could recycle the earlier stages up to encoded audio completion )and will report back

[ric1234]

Hi all, here is some feedback on my experience.

I do SVCDs only, PAL/permanent subs mostly, did 6 DVD conversions with D2sRoBa already and overall, quality is really good and the software works very well : Thank you Tylo for it :)

Small problem however : my last CDs are never filled up, generally I have 750 Mb out of 805 Mb.

I did some Q adjustments but I have to put as much as -7 to fill up the CD, which seems strange to me... Also I tried to increase the movie sample to 4 or 5 % => it does not help... So I was wondering if other people have the same results with D2SRoBa ? Anyone knows how to get closer to fill up last CD ?

Also here is an idea : since there is a risk of overflow, would it be possible, after the final .mpv is created, to check its size BEFORE the "muxing and cutting" part, and if it appears that it is going to overflow last CD, then automatically add 1 CD image for the "cutting" ? This would be great because most of the time, you would just loose some end credits and I'm ok to discard these.

So for instance, you would select 2 CD but end up with 3 images : 805 + 805 + 30 Mb and just discard the last one.

IMHO the most important is to create cd images ALWAYS smaller or equal to max CD size otherwise the whole job is lost...

I have no idea if it's easy or not to do and I know Tylo's on holidays but if anyone wishes to comment...

Ric

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Holomatrix
[B]I have a question on how the '?' feature works. I thought it was supposed to give you an option of picking what Q you want to use if the quesstimated Q was going to be not what you set as worst Q, but when I select '?', my encode just goes all the way through with a Q of 1. Is there away for D2Sroba to automatically select a 2 CD encode if the quesstimated Q is going to higher than what I pick as my worst Q?

@Holomatrix,

Tylo has made extensive explanation on how does "?" work in this thread, but if you're lost please read again the docs (http://home.no.net/tylo/).

Plus it would be good for D2Sroba to ask the user what bitrate to use on a given Q...

I think you are not getting the idea behind D2Sroba. The whole point is you select the quality you want, no the BR or he number of CDs. The program determines both based on you worst Q.

If you're getting weird results, is just because of the old encoding rule: garbage in, garbage out. You have to set up parameters in their range of validity.


I would of liked it if D2Sroba gave me an option to decrease the picked Q and decrease the bitrate on the second movie or poped up a window with various Q/Bitrate option I could choose from based on the movie examination that D2Sroba did.

In "?" mode, it will let you choose only if two Qs will satisfy your requirent. If only one does, it won't ask and just proceed.

@homerjay,

In particular, D2Sroba is not good to make 1 CD rips, since it cannot calculate Qs above 64, and Qs > 60 are not good anyway in terms of quality. Don't use 1 CD rips with D2Sroba, unless the movie is short and you can get a good Q. IMO, Q=30 is a good figure to start testing.

D2Sroba is quality driven.

If you are looking for size and not quality, there are other tools for that, probably using TMPGEnc (Tok, CQmatic, etc.)

Hope this helps.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by jsquare
[B]Same problem here with Saving Private Ryan for 2x800MB SVCDs, I know it's a long movie (2:49) but I can't get D2SRoba v2.4.4 to calculate the correct bitrate
Hi, @jsquare,

I'm under the impression your problem has nothing to do with resolution. I don't know which Q are you using, but if you get a BR of 1100 os so, quality won't be good at high res.

There is no black magic in D2Sroba. It just automates the decisions you would make manually in DVD2SVCD. You wouldn't go for an SVCD of 1100, would you? (BTW, CCE is not good at low BRs, TMPGEnc does a better job at low BRs and using MPEG-1).

Please make sure you're starting from scratch every time you change the res., and pick mode=auto and Q=30. The program will tell you how many CDs you really need. I guess it would be 3.

Hope this helps.

[homerjay]

thanks for your comments r6d2 i appreciate what you are saying but

the results i am getting out despite being slightly too large are very good quality using a combination of filters

i have previously done 4 pass 1cd encodes that compare very highly to multiple cd rips i have seen using this combination but takes over 18 hours so i want to persue this further

hopefully tylo might have some thoughts on his return

* edit * telemike the last settings you suggested just started producing a 2cd rip qith a Q of 16 :confused:

[Holomatrix]

@r6d2 - "garbage in, garbage out" Yes, that could be what happened. Even though the DVD looks good, I've seen some 3.5 GIG VOB DVD's look better than some 6.5 GIG VOB DVD's.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by homerjay
[B]thanks for your comments r6d2 i appreciate what you are saying but

the results i am getting out despite being slightly too large are very good quality using a combination of filters

Heavy use of filters should increase compressibility a lot indeed. And quality is in the eye of the beholder :)

But also heavy filtering makes prediction more difficult sometimes. Remember the prediction is based on a sample, and the more filtering you do, the more "unrepresentative" becomes your sample.

OPV tries to keep the quality constant. (Quality here means "most alike with the source", not "absolute" quality.) That may be the reason OPV ends up with a higher file size.

With the use of heavy filtering you are probably reducing the Q a lot, Q again understood as "alike the source" but careful: the source is no longer your original source at this stage, it's your source heavily filtered, a different source. So lower Q will mean "alike my filtered source". That by no means guaranties your source will be "respected".

So, you'll end up with a 1 CD rip of a totally different movie... :D

i have previously done 4 pass 1cd encodes that compare very highly to multiple cd rips i have seen using this combination but takes over 18 hours so i want to persue this further

Remember that how many hours to put into it will not change the fact that D2Sroba is quality driven. You are aiming for good quality too, but constrained to disk space, so that makes your encodes size driven.

I think you may be using a fork instead of a spoon to eat your soup. You will get it done, but with a lot of effort.

Best regards,

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Holomatrix
@r6d2 - "garbage in, garbage out" Yes, that could be what happened. Even though the DVD looks good, I've seen some 3.5 GIG VOB DVD's look better than some 6.5 GIG VOB DVD's.
Sorry, Holomatrix, I did not mean the DVD was a bad source. I meant maybe you gave not D2Sroba the right parameters... Try as Telemike says, Mode=auto and Q=30.

Q=25 and BR=940 may have another meaning... CCE may be thinking that to you BR is more important than Q.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by ric1234
Small problem however : my last CDs are never filled up, generally I have 750 Mb out of 805 Mb. [...] So I was wondering if other people have the same results with D2SRoBa ? Anyone knows how to get closer to fill up last CD ?

This one should make it into the FAQ :D.

Ok, let's see. CCE OPV uses a desired Q.factor as input. It does not allow you to specify AVG.BR. So, Tylo uses a binary search to find the Q(sample) for a sample of the movie which will then use to do the whole encode.

This Q(sample), even after binary search, is a guess. It depends on the sample. There is no guaranty it will represent the whole movie. If it does or not depends a lot on the source material. Extensive testing has been made to find a way of getting the best sample possible for any movie, with different GOP sizes, sample sizes, and all these tests have been inconclusive.

The best precision I've got is 1%, but with a sample size that renders OPV useless. I've not given up yet, but this is the state of the art.

But the good side on this is that with the default params, D2Sroba will almost always find a Q(sample) that is higher than the Q.factor (this is because using GOP=1 you have sorta worst case scenario).

So, encoding with that Q, if that Q satisfies you (you may look at the binary search samples on the Video folder), you will get a constant quality throughout all the movie, which will likely not fill you last CD. That is the price you pay for doing just one pass.

Since you're getting the quality you are satisfied with, this should be no problem. Yes, it's not the best quality you could get out of those CDs, but... As Dirty Harry said: You have to ask yourself a question: Do I feel OK paying this price? :)

Regards,

[ric1234]

@r6d2, well, your explanation is pretty clear, I understand it much better now, thanks.

Originally posted by r6d2
But the good side on this is that with the default params, D2Sroba will almost always find a Q(sample) that is higher than the Q.factor

Ok, this is safe. But now let's say I want to take more risks and reduce the Q so that *maybe* I will overflow my last CD... (for the reasons explained above). What would you think of my idea about the "cutting" ?

since there is a risk of overflow, would it be possible, after the final .mpv is created, to check its size BEFORE the "muxing and cutting" part, and if it appears that it is going to overflow last CD, then automatically add 1 CD image for the "cutting" ? This would be great because most of the time, you would just loose some end credits and I'm ok to discard these.
So for instance, you would select 2 CD but end up with 3 images : 805 + 805 + 30 Mb and just discard the last one.

But this raises one question : which software should do the size check ? D2SRoBa or DVD2SVCD ? Because I wonder if D2SRoBa has not given back the hand to Dvd2svcd at this stage and therefore can not interact with the process anymore... Unless D2SRoBa keeps monitoring the process until the encoding is finished and can squiz a little tweak in the number of CDs before the muxing starts... Or unless @dvd2svcd (who has done so much already) would consider adding this feature in a next version... ?

Thanks and Regards,
Ric

[r6d2]

Originally posted by ric1234
What would you think of my idea about the "cutting" ?

Well, I think it's a great idea. So great, that DDogg claimed he did the very same thing on this very thread, june 12: :D
Quoting DDogg:
The one pass vbr section of the plugin really works well although I am finding it is difficult to get a completely full second cd. I have been increasing the Q adjust upward to actually force a slight oversize on a two cd encode to cause a third partial cd to be created in the muxing step. That small third cue/bin is normally just a few minutes of titles which I can discard thus allowing the second cd to be full.

Seems that he got the muxed files cut automatically... Did you try it? Doesn't DVD2SVCD cut properly in your case?


Unless D2SRoBa keeps monitoring the process until the encoding is finished and can squiz a little tweak in the number of CDs before the muxing starts... Or unless @dvd2svcd (who has done so much already) would consider adding this feature in a next version... ?

I've asked Tylo to have D2Sroba do some more stuff for DVD2SVCD, for instance, resize the CDs to the expected average size after the encode in order to get equally sized CDs (this is good so you don't end up with a last image of just 15 min).

I don't know if he has had time to do that, since he's on vacation, but yes, D2Sroba may continue to get its hands into DVD2SVCD.

DVD2SVCD has not been updated for a while, I don't know if @DVD2SVCD is still improving it.

Regards,

[ric1234]

Ooops ! Sorry DDogg, that is you idea in fact ! I couldn't remember this post... ;)

Seems that he got the muxed files cut automatically... Did you try it? Doesn't DVD2SVCD cut properly in your case?Well no, in my case, it doesn't cut properly all by itself.
I tried it twice and each time I ended up with an 800+++ Mb last CD image...

Anyway, I thought a bit further about it and I manage to re-cut the movie after the whole SVCD creation is finished. Here is what I did (that was a 3 CD conversion) :
- First I ran the whole D2SRoBa process with Q adjust = 8. I ended up with 3 images : 805 - 805 - 869 Mb
- Edit "dvd2svcd project file.d2s"
- Found the following lines (don't know which ones are really used) :
[Settings]
Number of images=3
Volumes=3
[MovieInfo]
Images=3
- Replaced 3 by 4 and saved
- Start Dvd2svcd and Recover from "muxing and cutting"
And it worked perfectly, I then ended up with 3 images of 805 Mb plus 1 image of 64 Mb. Luckily, that last sequence was from 10 sec after the start of the end credits ! :D

But I must say Q Adjust=8 is probably too much, I think I should better use Q=6 because that one was *very* close from the loss of the end of the movie... (the sample was 4%, so I assume quite accurate)

Anyway, I really hope the "Adaptive cutting" feature will be added in the future ! That would be great :rolleyes:
Meanwhile, if there's an easier way to do it manually, I'd be happy to take it.

Cheers,
Ric

[r6d2]

Originally posted by ric1234
But I must say Q Adjust=8 is probably too much, I think I should better use Q=6 because that one was *very* close from the loss of the end of the movie... (the sample was 4%, so I assume quite accurate)

You really mean 8, not 0.8? Gee! That's pretty unusual. What Tylo does is simply substract this number to the calculated Q (take a look at the log). Normally the Q you need should be around the Q automatically calculated, untweaked. 8 is indeed too big. The only explanation I can find is that the Q was very, very low, and the movie was either maxed out or might have fitted on 2 CDs with a reasonable Q.

[ric1234]

I know, it seems strange to me too to have to Adjust Q so much. This is why I tried on several movies, but I had pretty much always the same results... But again, I think -8 is too much, and I'd better go for -6 (but still it is far from -1.6 proposed in D2SRoBA)

Anyway, here is the log :
Settings:
- CD size : 800
- Number of CD's : 3
- Worst Q. factor : ---
+ One pass VBR Robshot/Bach : 1
- Sample percentage : 4
- Sample GOPs : 1
- Adjust Q. : 8
- Safety Zone : 34
+ Do credits bitrate tweak : 0
- Start time : 0:00:00
- Bitrate : 1000
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 02:39:42 (239572 frames, 25 fps)
- Audio size est : 383315200. bytes (192 + 128 kbps)
- CD user data size : 833237920. = (800 - 5)*1024*1024 - 380000
- SelectRangeEvery : every 375, select 15 frames
- Num. sample frames : 9585
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 3
- Target mpv size : 2059004058. (1718 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : 2329687909. (Q=32, 1944 kbps, 93208132 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 2057591804. (Q=48, 1717 kbps, 82321880 sample sz)
- Computed mpv size : 2193639856. (Q=40, 1831 kbps, (Q48+Q32)/2)
- Computed mpv size : 2125615830. (Q=44, 1774 kbps, (Q48+Q40)/2)
- Computed mpv size : 2091603829. (Q=46, 1746 kbps, (Q48+Q44)/2)
- Estimated mpv size : 2073434799. (Q=47, 1730 kbps, 82955740 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Q Weight : (2059004058. / 24.9944705268649 - 82321880) / (83682662. - 82321880)
- Adjust Q : (48 + 1.0 - 4.15222145488089e-002 - (8)) = 40.9584777854512
- Determined Q. : 40 As you can see, I am in very reasonable Q values and bitrates. With this settings, OPV's running with a Q factor = 40.
A previous test with Q Adjust=1.6 was running OPV at Q factor 47, but I had 50Mb left on last disk. Now at Q=40, the improvement in quality is quite sensible.
Ric

[homerjay]

hello ric1234

just a question for you - what version of cce are you using
i was on 2.50 for above tests but i updated to 2.67 last night and with basic settings it actually estimated the correct size....

could be coincidence - i dont know

[ric1234]

Hello Homerjay,

I am using CCE 2.66... But you're right, this could be a track to explore...
I still have a 2.50, I'll give a try tonight to see how much difference there is with 2.66.

Ric

[r6d2]

Originally posted by ric1234
[B]I know, it seems strange to me too to have to Adjust Q so much. This is why I tried on several movies, but I had pretty much always the same results... But again, I think -8 is too much, and I'd better go for -6 (but still it is far from -1.6 proposed in D2SRoBA)
[...]Now at Q=40, the improvement in quality is quite sensible.

I see your values are "reasonable". However, I have no idea why this happens to you, and since it is on several movies, gee, I'm lost.

I personally had some strange stuff happening once, D2Sroba said Q=48 was good and went for a 1 CD rip. The movie looked not that bad, actually, but something smelled bad to me anyway. Its was an ~80 min movie, 4:3 format, BR was 1100 or so. I found it more suitable for MPEG1 and TMPGEnc.

You know, D2Sroba is magic, in a sense (as Tylo says), but it's not black magic. As a matter of caution, don't just trust anything a software tool will say (Try MS Word's grammar corrector to see what I mean :)). DVD encoding is an artisan work. Use your instinct too, and all you already know.

Before I made my choice, I tried different worst Q values, with several movies, and finally I kept 30 as my standard. No trouble ever since.

(It also happened to be the value recommended by Bach, the author of the Roba method).

BTW, Tylo uses 38.

[ric1234]

I am among these people who are not absolute Q fanatics (uh don't beat me :) ), I mean I always put in the balance the number of CDs as well.

Sometimes if the Q factor increases a little bit but it saves me 1 CD, then I'll be ok with it. Anyway, I respect both approachs.

In fact I wonder if my way of thinking would not be something like (and this could another idea proposed to Tylo ;) ) :
Estimate for 2 and 3 CDs (for instance, could 3-4) and I want Q between 10 and 40.
And the decision would be :
If one of estimated Q is in between => ok, take it ; if not, which Q-estimate is the closest to one end of the interval ? => then take that one.
So that if 2CD => Q=45 and 3CD => Q=1, then I'd go for Q=45
The only difference with the "Num CDs=auto" current method (I think) is that if it was 2CD => Q=45 and 3CD Q=11, then I'd keep Q=11 (that means I don't want to go too low in Q and waste space on the last CD... Is there a way to do this ?)

Regarding the accuracy of Q-estimation, I'll continue my tests and post feedbacks (if other people would like to post feedbacks, shall we start a new thread for this ?)
In this context anyhow, this is why I was asking for an "auto overflow cut" feature ( please ? :rolleyes: )

See you, Ric

[r6d2]

Originally posted by ric1234
[B]I am among these people who are not absolute Q fanatics (uh don't beat me :) ), I mean I always put in the balance the number of CDs as well.

I guess "?" mode is for you then, with sort of a threshold for the desired Q. Good idea. It would also reduce the cases where "you have to be there" to just select your option. Good for batch mode.

Regarding the accuracy of Q-estimation, I'll continue my tests and post feedbacks (if other people would like to post feedbacks, shall we start a new thread for this ?)

I agree with that. In fact, I think D2Sroba deserves its own thread already. Hope Tylo will initiate one.

[ric1234]

Originally posted by homerjay
i was on 2.50 for above tests but i updated to 2.67 last night and with basic settings it actually estimated the correct size....
Hello homerjay, here is the result of my tests with both CCE 2.50 and CCE 2.66.
As you will see, the prediction is more accurate with 2.66 than 2.50. But since even 2.66 is 50 Mb from filling up last CD, maybe I should try with 2.67...?

Image sizes with 2.50 : 805 + 805 + 735 Mb
Image sizes with 2.66 : 805 + 805 + 758 Mb

The source and settings were exactly the same in both encodes :
--------------------------------------------------------
Settings:
- CD size : 800
- Number of CD's : 3
- Worst Q. factor : ---
+ One pass VBR Robshot/Bach : 1
- Sample percentage : 4
- Sample GOPs : 1
- Adjust Q. : 1.6
- Safety Zone : 34
+ Do credits bitrate tweak : 0
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 02:39:42 (239572 frames, 25 fps)
- Audio size est : 383315200. bytes (192 + 128 kbps)
- CD user data size : 833237920. = (800 - 5)*1024*1024 - 380000
- SelectRangeEvery : every 375, select 15 frames
- Num. sample frames : 9585
--------------------------------------------------------
- Number of CDs : 3
- Target mpv size : 2059004058. (1718 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------

Calculations for CCE 2.50 :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : 2477298953. (Q=32, 2068 kbps, 99113880 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 2189631693. (Q=48, 1827 kbps, 87604644 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 2064171948. (Q=56, 1723 kbps, 82585144 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 2006266958. (Q=60, 1674 kbps, 80268432 sample sz)
- Computed mpv size : 2035219453. (Q=58, 1699 kbps, (Q60+Q56)/2)
- Estimated mpv size : 2049873611. (Q=57, 1711 kbps, 82013084 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Q Weight : (2059004058. / 24.9944705268649 - 81426788.) / (82585144 - 81426788.)
- Adjust Q : (57 + 1.0 - 0.821504513429513 - (1.6)) = 55.5784954865705
- Determined Q. : 55
--------------------------------------------------------
Replace values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor : 55
- opv_brate_max : 1716 ==> 2350
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 1718
--------------------------------------------------------
- Encoding Movie
- Actual mpv file size:
30/07/2003 04:49 1986452308 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
--------------------------------------------------------

Calculations for CCE 2.66 :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : 2329687909. (Q=32, 1944 kbps, 93208132 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 2057591804. (Q=48, 1717 kbps, 82321880 sample sz)
- Computed mpv size : 2193639856. (Q=40, 1831 kbps, (Q48+Q32)/2)
- Computed mpv size : 2125615830. (Q=44, 1774 kbps, (Q48+Q40)/2)
- Computed mpv size : 2091603829. (Q=46, 1746 kbps, (Q48+Q44)/2)
- Estimated mpv size : 2073434799. (Q=47, 1730 kbps, 82955740 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Q Weight : (2059004058. / 24.9944705268649 - 82321880) / (83682662. - 82321880)
- Adjust Q : (48 + 1.0 - 4.15222145488089e-002 - (1.6)) = 47.3584777854512
- Determined Q. : 47
--------------------------------------------------------
Replace values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor : 47
- opv_brate_max : 1716 ==> 2350
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 1718
--------------------------------------------------------
- Encoding Movie
- Actual mpv file size:
28/07/2003 02:22 2010735312 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
--------------------------------------------------------

Ric

[telemike]

Hi-

I am using CCE 2.50 with the following Avisynth filters: Spacedust and TemporalCleaner.

I have been getting good results, however in my backup of my son's Star Trek Nemesis (2 cd encode) I notice at times that Picards face would shift. It seemed CCE kept part of the frame from moving in sync with other frames.....kinda freaky

[r6d2]

Originally posted by telemike
[B]Hi-

I am using CCE 2.50 with the following Avisynth filters: Spacedust and TemporalCleaner.

I have been getting good results, however in my backup of my son's Star Trek Nemesis (2 cd encode) I notice at times that Picards face would shift.
@Telemike, use the PicardFaceUnShift() filter :D

@Ric1234,

I noticed that you use max=2350. Would you try max=2530?

[telemike]

Most likely it was CCE rendering at a low bitrate.

I may try again at CVD resolution. Out of habit I have been using 480x480 svcd resolution.

[r6d2]

One of Bach's brilliant posts which didn't make it after he left was this:


Quoting Bach:
Let me try to make this CVD hype more clear:

=>quality comparison:
->paramethers:
average bitrate (avr);
bitrate/block (bpb);
visual quality(q).

Results:
a) for bpb=constant:
q of DVD > q of SVCD > q of CVD > q of VCD

b) for avr=constant: This is not so static but, most of times, we have the following:

b.1) if avr > 3500 kbps:
q of DVD > q of SVCD > q of CVD > q of VCD

b.2) if 3500 > avr > 1800:
q of SVCD > q of CVD > q of VCD > q of DVD

b.3) if 1800 > avr > 1000:
q of CVD > q of VCD > q of SVCD > q of DVD

b.4) if 1000 > avr > 600:
q of VCD > q of CVD > q of SVCD > q of DVD

if avr<600, any standard resolution looks bad with mpeg2. Maybe we should try 64x64 resolution

So, it is not simply a "what looks better" question.

I don't know the theory behind it, but coming from Bach it should have a good one. If any other of this forum's founding fathers would elaborate on this it would be great.

[Holomatrix]

I used to create CVD's in the b.3 senario range but used to get thoes "analising" Lines, (diagonal lines) can't remember the right word rigt now, through the video at certain parts so I went back to SVCD and the problem went away.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Holomatrix
I used [...] to get thoes "analising" Lines, (diagonal lines) can't remember the right word rigt now, through the video at certain parts so I went back to SVCD and the problem went away.
My personal experience is BR even down to 1550 (Edit: 16:9) still look good with SVCD, but I surely would like to know the math behind Bach's statement.

PS: The word is "aliasing", but you were kidding, right? :D Anyway, I'm pretty sure there should be a solution to aliasing with AviSynth, but I'm clueless about it.

[Holomatrix]

not sure what you mean by the "Math" of it.
All I get from:

b.3) if 1800 > avr > 1000:
q of CVD > q of VCD > q of SVCD > q of DVD

is, if Max Avg bitrate (avr) is less than 1800 but greater than 1000 then @ the resolutions of each of the 4 formats, quality of CVD is greater than VCD, VCD greater than SVCD .....

Sorry if you are looking to get more out of thoes statments, I didn't really go to deep with them.

We'll at least for me the solution to the 'Aliasing' :) was to encode to SVCD instead.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Holomatrix
not sure what you mean by the "Math" of it.

By math I mean the theory that justifies this...

[Holomatrix]

Do you really think there is a real theory behind this, I think it is just his 'Opinion' on the testing he has done. If you know Bach then you would know that he thought his Opinion was from God's mouth to his ear :) :) Maybe that's just my opinion ? :)

[ric1234]

Originally posted by r6d2
@Ric1234,
I noticed that you use max=2350. Would you try max=2530? Yes sure, I did the test last night but unfortunately it completely failed... I ended up with a 3rd .mpeg file of... 5.2 Gb ! (yes Gb!)
I don't know why it did that but I must have screwed up something since I used Recovery to save a bit of processing time...

Anyway, first I thought you definitely had spotted the bug (my 2350 value comes from 2750 - 192x2 for 2 audio tracks, to keep director's comments sometimes). But then I did the test with CCE2.66 and max=2430 (2750 - 192 - 128, director's comment still) and the estimation D2SRoBA makes was a little worse than before :
- Adjust Q : (50 + 1.0 - 0.13411485580138 - (1.6)) = 49.2658851441986
- Determined Q. : 49
I'm looking for a determined Q of 44 on that encode I think.

So... I don't know... What I'll do is for a next conversion with 1 audi only, I'll set max back to 2530, because I know the test I did was not max=2530 precisely as you suggested.

And to bring a good news down here, look what reply I found in the Basic Forum from @dvd2svcd himself :
Originally posted by dvd2svcd
Any similar tool for AVI to DVD-R?
Soon I might have something for you. Keep an eye on my homepage. Hopefully soon we might get rid of all the disk space hassle, let's all buy DVD writers !

Ric

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Holomatrix
If you know Bach then you would know that he thought his Opinion was from God's mouth to his ear :) :) Maybe that's just my opinion ? :)
Well, in fact I think he got his opinions from God's mouth to his ears, very well supported indeed (he'd not have taken them otherwise :)), but he refrained to give us the "supporting" parts because we were lesser creatures unable to understand. :D

Originally posted by ric1234
Hopefully soon we might get rid of all the disk space hassle, let's all buy DVD writers !

Yeah, I also read DVD2SVCD's post. Can't wait to see what's in his new version.

Regarding the max=2530, it has to do with the "threshold" concept Bach explained about it. When the threshold is too low, then OPV gives a damn about quantization, so it's like encoding with CBR.

The point is that you have to set thresholds which are educated guesses according to the resolution and specs of the format you're using, as well as the compressibility of the movie, to have OPV (or TMPGEnc's CQ mode) do a good job.

Otherwise, you will get an encode anyway, but it won't be "constant quality", even though you may be convinced about it.

[ric1234]

Another subject, does anyone know if D2SRoBa takes into account the thread priority defined in Dvd2Svcd when it runs CCE ?

Because I generally set CCE's priority low but right now, it seems to take to much CPU over other stuffs I'm doing... wonder if it's not running in "normal" priority ?

Ric

[r6d2]

Originally posted by ric1234
[B]Another subject, does anyone know if D2SRoBa takes into account the thread priority defined in Dvd2Svcd when it runs CCE ?

Because I generally set CCE's priority low but right now, it seems to take to much CPU over other stuffs I'm doing... wonder if it's not running in "normal" priority ?

Don't wonder, see the properties in task manager. And no, D2Sroba does not use DVD2SVCD priority. You have to set it up in CCE using ECL. Set up once and it's persistent.

Regards,

[El Leon]

Hi, when I fill the CD size with 990 and number cds with 2, the target bitrate rise to over 3400KBps and the final Q is 1, the final image size is bigest than 2 cds.
I want to use 99 mins CDs, any one can help me?
Thank you

[DDogg]

@ Tylo, maybe my memory is going but I thought you were honoring the frame selection in dvd2svcd? If so I fear it is broken. This was in a normal multipass mode. I'll also check in one pass. [edit: also not working in 1pass]. I guess you just have to pick up the AviSynth_Script_file_FS1.AVS instead of the normal one as it has the trim command already in it.

Also, I wonder if you could allow a "cut" or "0" bitrate in the tweak section? Sometimes, especially on low bitrates, I would just prefer to cut some of the credits instead of encode them, even at a low bitrate.

[davidh44]

Originally posted by DDogg
@ Tylo, maybe my memory is going but I thought you were honoring the frame selection in dvd2svcd? If so I fear it is broken. This was in a normal multipass mode. I'll also check in one pass. [edit: also not working in 1pass]. I guess you just have to pick up the AviSynth_Script_file_FS1.AVS instead of the normal one as it has the trim command already in it.

Frame selection in DVD2SVCD + D2SRoBa + 1 pass VBR has always worked for me. I cut out the credits using frame selection.

[homerjay]

Originally posted by DDogg
Also, I wonder if you could allow a "cut" or "0" bitrate in the tweak section? Sometimes, especially on low bitrates, I would just prefer to cut some of the credits instead of encode them, even at a low bitrate.

thats a brilliant idea :D i second that request

actually just remembered a question i wanted to ask - i thought while playing with d2sroba that i once set the Q i wanted to encode at and got the conversion to start immediately but cannot remember what i did :o anyone got any ideas :confused:

[ric1234]

When you use the bitrate tweaking, you have to run a multi-pass VBR, right ? I mean from my understanding of D2SRoBA, you can not have the best of both worlds : OPV with Q estimation + bitrate tweaking, am I right ?

Because this is exactly why I proposed to Tylo the feature of "Automatic overflow cut on last CD" ("Adaptive cutting"). In my idea, it was to achieve the same result as what you are talking about : cut the end credits, but also, we could still use OPV.

What I do in my conversions is : set a big Q-Adjust (-6) to force overflow and then re-cut last mpg file to loose 2-3 mn of end credits and make sure my last CD is filled up completely. But right now, I re-cut manually (TMPg or Dvd2svcd Recover).

The only problem is that it is not very precise... :)
Ric

[r6d2]

Originally posted by homerjay
i thought while playing with d2sroba that i once set the Q i wanted to encode at and got the conversion to start immediately but cannot remember what i did :o anyone got any ideas :confused:
Hi, @homerjay,

I think this can happen in two cases (first one not verified though):

1. You just got lucky and the Q you set gave D2Sroba the precise BR for the disk size for that movie. So, no need to do more testing (very unlikely).

2. You say you were playing... Maybe from previous runs there were already lots of D2Sroba_Q? files on the Video dir. and the process was straightforward since D2Sroba uses them unless explicitly deleted.

[homerjay]

i choose door number two r6d2 thanks :D
there were definately lots of previous attempts in there, thats got to be it lol

[DDogg]

@davidh44, yep, it was some type of glitch as I was doing a lot of restarts. It is now working and this allows credits to be whacked off in frame selection..

@ric1234, you can already do this. Check the "Use Frame Selection" box in the conversion tab. A lot of folks do not even know it is there although DVD2SVCD spent countless (read 100s) of hours perfecting it. It is truly an amazing piece of under appreciated work. Then, since I was incorrect above, Tylo's one pass process will pick up the trimmed avs script. It works well.

[tylo]

Hi all, I'm back from a nice vacation. :cool:
A lot of activity has been going on here since I left! Great to see that you folks are also doing support now!

I have started a new thread, as a few of you suggested.
I'll post planned new features and fixes very soon there - just need to catch up a bit first.

Please, continue discussions in the new thread.
Cheers - tylo

[DDogg]

I got a PM which I assume was meant to be posted. Since the senders mailbox was full, I could not verify that.


Hi,

Bach asked me to send you this PM - people here have locked his account - in order to clear some misunderstandings about his method.

-->>>>Robshot method: a tweaked 2+ pass method, done using some specific CCE settings.
The first pass is OPV, with Q.factor=60. In this pass, you DO NOT NEED to create the mpv file.
The second(+) pass is multipass VBR, reusing the vaf file created at the firts pass, after some bitrate tweak done in "advanced tab" in order to have green zones only, with the lowest average bitrate possible(according to CCE manual: green=good, gray=bad, red=shit).

-->>>>RoBa method: This - not so good - name was given by DVD2SVCD. It shoud be called "Bach's 2+", since it is a very extensive modification of Robshot method. The thread about it is still there. A lot of settings corrections. A very different tweaked 2+ pass aproach.
The first pass is OPV, with the worst Q.factor of your choice (mine is 40. For CCE, Q concerns to quality and the smaller the better.), and you DO NEED to create the mpv file.
The second(+) pass is multipass VBR, reusing the vaf file of the first pass AND an average bitrate CALCULATED using the size of the first pass as reference.
-Example to ilustrate the method:
a)movie Time length: 140min.
b)first pass:
-- Setting:OPV, Q.factor=40.
-- result: mpv size=1433422KB, audio size=131250KB, total size=1754682KB, #CD to use=(total_size/cd_size)=1.91.
-- Decision: Calculate video averate bitrate (CAVG) necessary in order to fit 2 CDs.
c) do multipass reusing vaf from first pass and using CAVG.
WEAKNESS OF ROBA: if CAVG > 2*(1st_pass_mpv_size/time_length) or CAVG < 0.5*(1st_pass_mpv_size/time_length), you MUST recreate the vaf file in order to do the multipass encoding.

-->>>> Bach 1passVBR: could be also called "fast 2 pass" method. Here you will use the result of just OPV. However, since OPV have no size boundary - you cannot setup its average bitrate - it is necessary to perform a first sampling enconding in order to predict the value of Q necessary to fill in the CD(s). This is the essence of this method: predict the value of Q necessary for you desires and perform OPV with this Q. The primary step consists of a crucial choice between two things:
a)if you want quality: set the worst value of Q and do the sampling encoding, and use the number of CDs which CCE needs for that quality. Do some other sampling encodings in order to fine tune Q until you get a value wich fills the CDs.
b)if you want fixed number of CDs: set the number of CDs and do sampling encondings searching for the value of Q which fills your CDs.
The difference between (a) and (b) is that in (a) you let CCE decide the number of CDs to be used. So, (a) deserves to be called "fast RoBa method".
WEAKNESS OF BACH 1PASSVBR: it is impossible to achieve a value of Q.factor apt to fit 100% of the CD set. There is an error of +-2% inherent to this statistical prediction.

Comparing RoBa method with Bach method, it is possible to see that the weakness of one method is the strong point of the other. So, lets do both of then and have THE METHOD (at least for those "fill cd freaks": simply do Bach's sampling prediction in order to achieve the value of Q which must be used in RoBa. As simple as that.

[r6d2]

Now Bach's is going for anonymous postings? Is he embarrased to show his face again?

Honestly I don't see any misunderstanding cleared up by this post, except claiming authorship who nobody is disputing anyway.

[DDogg]

erm, don't go there please. Bach's account is locked so he could not post directly. I miss Bach's brilliant intellect a lot, even if he is/was a young/old cranky rascal at times. I don't think it was meant as anonymous and it may not have even been meant to be posted. I hope I did not make a mistake in doing so. I think the purpose was to help clear up some of the thrashing (probably mine :)) that we have been doing about these methods.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by DDogg
erm, don't go there please. Bach's account is locked so he could not post directly.
Bach was not striked, at least on the late period he was a member of the forum. His decision to leave was his own. Nobody expelled or exiled him. If he wants to come back, he may ask for his account to be unlocked. If the mods decide to grant him that, the decision is up to them. If they decide not to, he does not belong here anymore.

But hiding behind respected members of the comunity as you, I think is not a grown up thing, so what else is new.

He also may ask permision to nobody and sign up again as Chopin, Haendel, or any other famous musician, which would be another childish thing to do.

But he hasn't, so I think he does not want to.
I miss Bach's brilliant intellect a lot
I think we all do. Me personally learned a lot from him. But he made a lot of people work really hard after he left to reinstate his kwoleadgeable posts. I think the very first thing he can do is to apologize, before just claiming undisputed authorship of his brilliant ideas, or lecturing us about "what he really meant to say".

Just IMHO, and I shut up on this subject because the dead deserve respect.