DVD labels one more revisit

[markrb]

I know this subject comes up from time to time, but in all the threads I have read I can't seem to come to any kind of conclusion.

I know my safest option would be to buy printable DVD's and a DVD inject printer, but the budget doesn't allow for that right now.

The second safe choice seems to be hub labels, but I would rather just write on the disc myself in this case.

I guess what I am getting at in the end is to ask is there a "safer/better" label to use on DVD's out there? One that has the least amount of problems.

Is there a safer way of applying them so that there are the fewest problems?

My local Blockbuster uses labels on all their DVD's now and I have never had an issue playing anything I rented from them. So maybe there might be hope?

Mark

[smiller667]

AFAIK the major problem with labels is warping of the disc due to different expansion/shrinking properties when subjected to changes in temperature or humidity. Imbalance by improperly centered labels would be another (minor?) issue.

Your best bet would be to get some label material which has properties similar to PC and a precise centering device. I don't have recommendations for either, though.

The issue of warping might be more critical for lower-grade recordables which are not 100% level to start with.

As there have been reports from people who could return a disc to a playable state simply by removing the label, I am not really inclined to try it out myself atm. Does Blockbuster really use full-face labels?

[markrb]

My Blockbuster does, but I don't know if all do since mine is a franchise.
The label is mostly clear with the BlockBuster logo on it so you can still see most of the surface of the disc, but know who owns it.

They don't even do a good job putting them on either as they are often off center by a good bit and stick off the edge of the disc.
However I have never had an issue playing any of them in my PC or in my stand alone.

Mark

[Steelo]

I was thinking of adding labels to my dvds as well and I ran across a thermal printer at Rima. (http://www.rima.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=R&Product_Code=2740)

Has anyone had any experience with this device or something similar to place images onto the surface of their dvds?

[padre]

From what I remember about that type of disc printer is, it only can print one color at a time (different ribbons for different colors). Its not meant to give you a real high-end look (like a silkscreen printing might). But if you just want to apply some text and a simple logo, no problem, it'll do the job.

I went for an inkjet printer and inkjet printable dvds, which don't have any of the above limitations.

[echooff]

What brand did you go for? How do you like it? Does it fulfill your expectations?

[idbirch2]

I put sticky labels on all of my DVD movies and PS2 games and have never had a problem with them. I bought a PressIt applicator which cost about £4 and makes the labels bang on centre every time.

I used to use only PressIt hi-res labels which were about £4-5 for 30 but recently thought I'd try some budget ones (100 for £6) and have had exactly the same result with these (apart from the slight drop in picture quality).

Have been doing movies for years and PS2 games for almost a year and the first discs I did on each format still play/boot fine with the labels on. Like Markrb I don't have enough cash to fork out for a new printer just so I can print direct onto discs - for me sticky labels are a cheap alternative with no draw backs. I think the only reason people end up having problems with labelled discs is because they're using cheap discs - I only ever use Verbatim DVD-R and they work just as well whether labelled or not.

[timekills]

I am beginning to disagree...

I have tested some DVD backups with Ritek G03 DVD-Rs I own. I had some data errors on DVD-Rs that were older than a few months, and labeled, so I decided to do a test. On a backup of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets I did for my kids, I compared the error rates on a labeled DVD-R and an unlabeled. They both had similar results, and of course passed the verification tests after burning. I watched them both on my stand alone (one of the reasons I chose this DVD - I knew my kids would want to watch it multiple times *yawn*). Both played well, with none of the skipping or strange effects caused by errors on the DVD.

Skip ahead 3 months and 2 days...

The labeled DVD starts fine, but at approx 15 minutes in, begins to suffer skipping and errors, eventually so bad that my Pioneer stand alone just gives up. My kids' Apex plays it until about 20 minutes (go figure - $400 DVD player is worse, sigh) but still gives up after fighting admirably.

The un-labeled DVD plays just like it were new.

I haven't redone the error test but I will.

P.S. Both DVDs were burned with a Sony DRX-500UL (external) burner at 1x.

edit: after error test. I'll post the pics on my web server soon, but the empirical results are amazing. Even more amazing is what happened after I removed the label from the DVD that wouldn't play. The error tests with the label on were over the 200 mark on PI starting about 1/3 of the way through, and 150-200 on CO. After removing the label, the scores were a max of 80 on CI and 45 on CO, and the areas that were HIGHEST before (i.e. 1/3 of the way in) became the lowest, averaging 20-30 instead of the previous 200.

Mind, this is the SAME DVD only after removing the label.

I used the Sonix/Imation DVD labeling system, full coverage label, so it shouldn't have been a centering problem. Also, it was on a printable DVD - although for thermal, not inkjet, but it had a solid white top, so reflectivity really couldn't have been a factor. ALl I know is, after soaking the DVD in Goo-Be-Gone for 10 minutes to soften the label adhesive, and removing the label, it plays like a champ now, and has error rates that are extremely low.

[windtrader]

The error tests with the label on were over the 200 mark on PI starting about 1/3 of the way through, and 150-200 on CO.

Timekills,
What utility do you use to do the error testing?

[gooki]

That cheap casio thermal printer is great for semi professional results. The text crispness is more than adequate.

The only bum thing is you get 50 prints per ribbon, and you can't wind it back even though there is a lot of wasted space.

I to an looking for a more cost effective thermal printer. Woudl be prepared to pay around $500USD for a full face printer, but I ain't paying the $1500-$3000 some places want for them.

[timekills]

I use LiteOn's KProbe software. (Actually called K's CD/DVD Probe), curently at version 1.1.26

The second tab in the program, Write Strategy can measuer C1C2 (although for DVDs it's actually measuring PI and PO - Parity Inner and Parity Outer. C1 and C2 are for CDs).

[RBremen]

Actually using the Epson 900 with the CD tray gives pretty good results. The common knock on the output is that it's on the faint side which is fixable once you select photo paper for your output versus CD/DVD. Rima has inkject printable G04s for about 1.25 each. Overall the output is good with some problems if the graphic has a lot of dark areas.

[sarahjh69]

Its not faint at all if you select
+1 or +2 on the colour density.
and as PC World has been selling the 900 for £75
its not exactly expensive to use.
Also adjust the inner and outer rings to 41 and 120
then it always covers the entire printable surface.

Labels unbalance the dvd player...not so noticable in PCs
the worst effect seems to be in standalone players. But about
being careful to stick in centre....how do you know the
label is an equal thickness from top to bottom??

Inkjet printable ritek 4x dvd-r from SVP £20 + VAT for 25

[RBremen]

Regarding the printable inkjet DVD-Rs. The finish seems to be a semi-gloss. Does anyone know if there is a full gloss finish available or if one is in the works?

[sarahjh69]

spray the printed cd/dvd with a fixer spray
and the finish becomes 'gloss'

[peachee]

No one has yet figured out the exact cause of unplayability of certain (meaning not all) labeled dvds (immediately or overtime). Everyone is STILL guessing. And guessing wrong, fixating at weights.

The problem is NOT unequal weight distribution of the label.

Think about it:
1. Why do Blockbuster (BB) dvds play fine if the BB dvds have a label that is totally off centered? Heck, most mom and pop dvd rental stores have a full size, thick dvd transparent circular labels covering/protecting yet another smaller silvery store address label. These don't have problems playing in dvd players. And these labels aren't precisely weight centered at all.

* Personal experience with off centered weight: I played a store bought dvd with the security sticker accidently stuck on the playing/readable side of the dvd. And, it played fine until the laser reached the area that the security sticker covered. I was amazed when I found out. This is an example of the power of well built dual laser dvd player.

Other Better Theories To Ponder (that make more sense):

(1) There are different types of dvd players with different quality. Some have dual lasers. Some have single lasers. Some players have lasers that last a long time (e.g,. older Pioneer dvd players, Pioneer drives, most DVDROM drives). Others start flaking out occasionally even on pristine new store bought dvds (e.g., current China made Pioneer dvd players, single laser China made players ala Apex). So, it could be poorly designed cost-cutting players or poor quality control at Chinese factories that is causing these laser reading problems.

(2) DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVDROMs all have different reflectivities and dyes. Most commercial dvds can be seen through if you put a light behind them (this visibility changes when you put a white label over them). Just hold up your unlabeled media to a light and see for yourself; then try it with a white labeled dvd media. The fact is, different media types stress a dvd laser differently. Some players and lasers remain immune to labeled DVDRs (e.g., many people have no problems labeling and playing their DVDRs). Other players start having problem with DVDRs even when they just bought these players from the local electronics store (e.g., newer China-made Pioneers sometimes play new store dvds with picture breakup and blocks and other times, it plays the same dvd with perfect picture ... it's voodoo annoying). So, it could be a combination of poor player construction, inadequate laser tolerance, and media reflectivity being changed by a white label (transparent labels from Blockbusters seem to do no harm).

(3) Some discs simply suck. They may have unstable dyes or aren't constructed precisely due to specs.

(4) Burners could act up over time. Sometimes one can burn a good disc and then a bad disc and then a good disc again. Pioneer burners tend to burn more accurate DVDRs. It could also be a computer system problem (virus, aspi, buffer underrun, overly hot drives after encoding for a day or two).

There are many theories dealing with all the different stages of burning a dvdr and putting a label on it. Each step could be the source of problem and possibily a couple steps could combine to cause to the problem. Each step must be analyzed.

So, ponder these theories, think them through, and test them out on a website preferably in a way that everyone can post/vote their own findings. You know ... consolidate more data (more the better) so you can get a more meaningful analysis. Hint: Have multiple polls of specific problems and experiences to help eliminate possible candidates of the dvdr label reading problem(s).

For those wanting to label their discs right now, stick with higher priced, non-China made dvd players that can play VCDs, SVCDS, DVD+-Rs, and labeled media. I hear Panasonic is the brand to get these days (it USED to be Pioneer; maybe the higher priced Pioneers are still good).

*Note: Spindle hole labels don't offer room for a picture (and would look lame to print a small picture; text might look ok if made on a circular path). Sharpies don't look professional for giving away family videos. Label printers are not worth it (Casio's printers are too low resolution, have too small print area, are color limited; Epson printers not worth it due to the cost and has clogging reputation; Canon CD printers are only available in Japan with Japanese drivers and cost a lot).

[sarahjh69]

Peachy....you are talking rubbish

Printed Dvds are a lot easier for standalones to read
so when blockbuster stick a small label on them its not
a big problem.

Stick a label on a recorded dvd and it no longer plays
Remove the label and it plays again
This is repeatable as long as you like.

Measure the thickness of the label top and bottom, its different,
in some cases 25% different. This will cause a huge imbalance
as the dvd spins.

Have you ever looked at someone balancing a car tyre, small
weights spinning at high speeds cause your whole car to vibrate.
Just think about what that would do to a dvd player laser trying
to follow "the groove"

[djadjet]

No need to be harsh, especially when you are both right. Imbalance, reflectivity change, quality of the reader (both laser and mechanics), error detection & correction firmware implementation, as well as many, many other factors leads to the single conclusion, it is not recommended to use full faced labels for RELIABLE DVD+-R labeling.

[int 21h]

Originally posted by sarahjh69
...Have you ever looked at someone balancing a car tyre, small
weights spinning at high speeds cause your whole car to vibrate.
Just think about what that would do to a dvd player laser trying
to follow "the groove"...

DVDs in a standalone DVD Player aren't spinning that fast, all it takes is 2-4x to play it. Do you honestly think your DVD Player is spinning up at 12x and buffering all that data?

[Kedirekin]

Actually, I'm with sarahjh69 on this.

1X DVD spins at 1,500 RPM (slower at the edges). A typical car tire at 60 mph spins at about 1,700 rpm (I think).

60 mph = 1 mile per minute
1 mile per minute = 5280 feet per minute
car tire circumference = ~ 4.5 feet
5280 feet per minute / ~4.5 feet per revolution = ~1,733 rpm

And the ratio of a balance weight to a tire's wieght is probably much smaller than the ratio of a label's off-center wieght to a DVD's weight (especially considering a balance weight is relatively close to the tire's hub).

[djadjet]

Car tire may be a nice example to illustrate the issue, but can’t be used to meaningfully compare the two.

Disk imbalance is certainly a major issue with labels, but there are others too. Which is the main reason that makes the disk intermittent or completely unusable (or even OK) depends on the player. Dual laser pickup handles the reflectivity changes much better, while the mechanical design and tracking firmware (laser positioning software) is the key to reduced susceptibility to external vibration and disk imbalance (read-ahead buffering and error correction plays an important part too). Heat and age also affects the label (both the glue and main material - paper or plastic film) and further changes the balance and reflectivity characteristics.

[Xesdeeni]

Anecdotal stories of labels peeling off during play, because of the heat of the DVD player, and gumming up the DVD player or labels peeling off and taking layers of the DVD with them were enough to dissuade me from using labels. Now there's some support for timekills' observations: http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=15800263&pgno=1.

Label if you want, but I don't recommend it.

Xesdeeni