OGM is not dead - oggds now in xiph CVS

[Kurosu]

Originally posted by Liisachan
I guess it's possible.
BTW have you ever tried to put a tag like {\c&Hffcc99&} in your SRT?
This is not documented, so hackish, but already works as color tags in SRT in OGM for me, with VSFIlter...
Ah ah, I wouldn't know SSA and srt could be mixed at such a level. Thanks for the info. However it really is hackish, as I wonder if this won't be broken at some point.

All that somewhat makes me think of the websites optimized for a particular browser: I fear I have to mux both a VSFilter-compatable sub stream and a SubtitDS one and name them accordingly, to ensure maximum compatability. In fact, what is really needed is that VSfilter is able to parse correctly those tags *whistles innocently*

[Nic]

I spoke to Gabest about it, seems like he'd like to implement it. But I dont know if he'll get to implement it. He also says VSFilter might be too slow for some people? Is that going to be the case or are we all ok to switch to VSFilter?

(I dont want to have to depend on the SubTitDS filter, which is closed source at the moment, although I've emailed Tobias for the source....Ill let you know if I get a reply)

-Nic

[Gaia]

SubTitDS filter never worked with Win98/ME because of unicode. So VSFilter is great...

[Nic]

Hmmm. Opinions are split. Im going to add <font support to VSFilter or at least make it so it ignores the tag (otherwise already muxed OGMs will display the <Font tag).

Sound ok?

-Nic

[Gaia]

Great :)

[Kurosu]

Fine by me. I have already messaged Gabest about this in VSrip, and didn't want to bother him with this, so I think it's the simplest solution.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Kurosu Ah ah, I wouldn't know SSA and srt could be mixed at such a level. Thanks for the info. However it really is hackish, as I wonder if this won't be broken at some point.

If you guys are going to add new tags to SRT format, wouldnt it be worth while listening closely to the player developers out there who will NOT use vsfilter.dll ?

Dont forget, USF is not so far away, there are 2 USF editor tools working already ( unmei's U96 and the one from Andre Covac ), and muxing USF into OGM shouldnt be too big of a problem IMHO ..... is it really worthwhile breaking SRT backwards compatibility because of a few weeks of additional waiting ?

[Nic]

Christian: For now ill add the HTML tags into VSFilter which won't break anything, and is for backwards compatibility with old OGM files. And then we can all take advantage of USF, if it takes off. Does that make sense?

-Nic

[pixolex]

@ChristianHJW

Please update the USF home page with the links to that tools :) it would be nice see the progresses...

[Atamido]

@Nic: How is the duration stored for OGM's native subtitle format? Actually, what are the basic specs for it?

[Nic]

Native format? At present the only one truely supported is SRT.

-Nic

[Atamido]

How is the SRT stored in OGM?

For instance, in Matroska the timecodes are stripped from the the text and the blocks timecode is set to the start time while the durations is computed from the difference between the start time and the end time.

[Nic]

Yes, OGM (Or at least OGMuxer) does it in a similar way. Why do you ask?

[Atamido]

I have not seen a way to define a duration in Ogg. How does OGM store this? I'm just asking out of curiousity because I was talking about it earlier in the thread and noone really mentioned it.

[Nic]

Oh I see, you're coming from the school of Spyder questioning....
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=346000#post346000

...Where you ask questions you already know the answer too (Or could find out about privately, but do it publically) as to make OGM sound bad and Matroska sound good....

...Yes that is a good tactic, Christian has taught you well my friend.
Here's a clue, forget about OGM and the threads about it on this board. And just get on with making your DShow filters good, chapter support, and all the rest, and stay out of threads that concern OGM.

I thought you we're asking a fair question, and it is a good question. But when you say "out of curiosity"...My paranoia starts to kick in.

You're best bet is to ask Cyrius/Suiryc for an answer, and I will look through OGMuxer's source again and post a better answer, I just saw it calculate a duration and jumped to the conclusion that it did in the same way...Ill post the exact way in a little while.

-Nic

ps
OK, It appears the sub_duration is used to state how many "samples" this sub is, which works as a kind duration and means the next granulepos will be set to the time of the next subtitle. If the picture needs to have a moment of no subs, then a blank subtitle is created and inserted. I hope that answers your questions. The source code can explain it better: Packetizer.cpp and SRTReader.cpp in OGMuxer is where to look first.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Nic ...Yes that is a good tactic, Christian has taught you well my friend.

Now i am starting to take things personally, sorry Nic, for the very first time since we know each other and since this crazy 'war of the formats' has been started here.

Of course you are right, there is a reason why Pamel is showing interest in OGM, and asking 'silly' questions about it. Yes, he has a bad and evil meaning behind asking, you are perfectly right.

Its mainly about one thing :

When will the current developers of OGM ( you and koepi ) act according to their responsibility towards their users and start documenting OGM. Now bash me if you want, or even make sure i get banned from this place. But admit that this questions is very very valid.

Our stuff started with a good documentation and clear specs. OGM started as a quick hack for private use ( ask Tobias ), and not only Cyrius and Mosu were asking with a smile in the face where the famous OGM docs are when Monty was trying to bash our project on Gentto forums.

I agree it was bad bad bad bad from Pamel to AGAIN POST IN A F****ING OGM THREAD, being a core MKV team member and despite that fact that we clearly gave advice to not do this anymore, and rest assured me and robux4 will have some very clear words with him about this, but the point remains, its a valid question and OGM related :

When do you or koepi plan to start documenting the OGM container format ???

[Nic]

Hi Christian, my apologies, that wasn't against you...I just meant it as your the "head" of posting about matroska, and Pamel sometimes comes across as your apprentice :)

Hopefully this may come from others interested in Ogg, and hopefully this will help bring about precise docs for the Ogg spec, without me or Koepi having to write them (although Ogg is quite a simple format, documentation for it wouldn't be too ardious)

My interest in OGM is not trying compete with Matroska, im just trying to support the userbase OGM already has, as best I can. So anyone is free to ask questions in this thread about OGM, if they are proper questions and not trying to poke holes in the OGM format. I hope experiences can be shared between the two container formats in constructive ways :)

Take Care,
-Nic

ps
Edit: Just realised I didn't answer your questions exactly:
1) Yes it is a very valid question and important to any format
2) Myself and Koepi will put something together if Xiph or those affiliated with it does not.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Nic Hi Christian, my apologies, that wasn't against you...I just meant it as your the "head" of posting about matroska, and Pamel sometimes comes across as your apprentice :)

Apology gladly accepted Nic, in fact i was scared to death that even you was not amongst the people seeing the bad guy in me, pushing matroska by all means, and even if i had to kill for it :scared: !

Certain things are developing with OGM, from what I hear, that make me think Xiph are taking it more seriously (and as such ill probably have to stop referring to it as OGM and instead as Ogg )

See, this is where marketing people think different than developers do. Before i would invest my time into developing OGM, i would FIRST contact Xiph people and get a clear signal from them about the future of OGM, and if they are going to make Theora compatible, but thats just IMHO ;) ...

Hopefully this may come from others interested in Ogg, and hopefully this will help bring about precise docs for the Ogg spec, without me or Koepi having to write them (although Ogg is quite a simple format, documentation for it wouldn't be too ardious)

True, once Xiph adapted OGM it would live a long life for sure, and you wouldnt have to care about documenting it to make sure OGM files can be read in future, so they are not lost for their users ....

My interest in OGM is not trying compete with Matroska

OGM and matroska are competitors, period. A developer adding more features to the OGM container is making it attractive for people to use for their rips, and this is a clear competitive thing to matroska. I dont say this is not allowed, but thats just a fact nobody can deny.

Im just trying to support the userbase OGM already has, as best I can. So anyone is free to ask questions in this thread about OGM, if they are proper questions and not trying to poke holes in the OGM format. I hope experiences can be shared between the two container formats in constructive ways :)

There is nothing wrong about making sure that OGM files can be played in future. We also support OGM in all our tools, as you may be aware.

Edit: Just realised I didn't answer your questions exactly:
1) Yes it is a very valid question and important to any format

Yes, and thats something the complete team is very proud about, the very good docs that robux4 has made before starting to code. Gabest could make his splitter and muxer filter from this docs in 3 days, and without using the lib, and they would work perfectly right first time.

2) Myself and Koepi will put something together if Xiph or those affiliated with it does not.

Contact them !!! Monty was using OGM in the past to try to make our stuff ridiculous, as Theora isnt working yet. Now is the time to get clear statements from him and the rest of Xiph about OGMs future, not if Theora is released and working .... just my 2 cents !

[Nic]

That is where marketing people come from first. See, the thing is that at the end of the day, people just want something that works. They don't care if it's supported, got docs...they just want it to work. So IMHO, I get it to work...then I tell the world how great it is and write docs about it. Not the other way around.

I do think you advertise and push Matroska a little too much at times. But at least you only do it in this part of the forum (which is where matroska belongs). Like starting that poll you did? Things like that just p*ss off the moderator's Christian and I can't believed it served you much of a purpose.
Sometimes I can't help but feel you might "shoot yourself in the foot". I.e. people won't use matroska, no matter how great it is, because of the tactics to push it into the lime light.

For me, it's not a competition, the formats aren't in competition. Its just user choice, if it was a competition then Id expect a winner. If I thought it was a competition then that means Ive put myself up against Gabest, Toff, RobUx4, Mosu, etc. Hey, im good, but I aint that good ;) lol
(I.e I don't fight battles I dont think I can win...which is what I think some of your team sometimes does with the moderator's here...but I don't think of this as a battle or about making things "attractive")

I hope you can see where im coming from :)

-Nic

ps
Remember when Tobias made OGM, he was very quiet and didn't need to advertise everywhere to get people to like it. People just took to it. Hopefully matroska can do the same.

[el00343]

Originally posted by Nic

ps
Remember when Tobias made OGM, he was very quiet and didn't need to advertise everywhere to get people to like it. People just took to it. Hopefully matroska can do the same.

wise words nic.I concur.

Christian, users aren't dumb.Especially in the oss world.They can judge,compare and if matroska deserves to take over ogm, it will.In the mean time...don't preach about it everywhere.Not that what you do is wrong, but especially in the oss world the best marketing is the best programming.Not advertising.

[ChristianHJW]

Can someone please split this conversation of Nic and myself into a new thread please ? I fear its going a bit OT ;) ...

Originally posted by Nic That is where marketing people come from first. ... wrong, sorry. marketing people are hired to market stuff that isnt existing in most cases, with the few things they have. That was what i was doing for a pretty long time when matroska was still theory, and i understand this must have been annoying for some people here, but again i was and am convinced matroska wouldnt be where it is now if robux4 had made the docs hidden in the cellar, and he had presented them once they were done.

See, the thing is that at the end of the day, people just want something that works. They don't care if it's supported, got docs...they just want it to work. So IMHO, I get it to work... ... sorry, again i dont agree. People invest a lot of time and passion into their movies, and they want the feeling they will be able to use their rips in future also.

then I tell the world how great it is and write docs about it. Not the other way around. ... strange, this is not how i was told a good tech should do things during my time at university here in Germany ... but anyway ....

I do think you advertise and push Matroska a little too much at times. But at least you only do it in this part of the forum (which is where matroska belongs). .. in fact, yes, i am letting the video encoding world knwo about what matroska can do, and i am posting in a lot of places, and honestly speaking almost everywhere people are much more friendly if i show up doing this than here. I still tend to believe this is because some of the mods here have other plans than matroska becoming popular and are acting against it by trying to constantly miscredit our work, but this is just my personal opinion and i cant prove that.

Like starting that poll you did? Things like that just p*ss off the moderator's Christian and I can't believed it served you much of a purpose. .. you guys think that was a fake ?? If you had the faintest idea to whom i am constantly talking about getting hardware support for matroska, you'd be shocked, i swear. Of course, i admit the reaction is currently close to zero, because our userbase is not big enough, but anybody who knows me ( and you SHOULD know me meanwhile my friend ) will understand that i wont stop until its achieved. Actually, iam trying to organize an appointment with a manufacturer in China during my next bussiness trip to there, and believe me i know my job as a salesman once i have the 'customer' in front of me ( its even more fun if its hobby ;) ), i can be pretty convincing :D . Supporting a container is not so hard from a technical point of view, at least if standard compression formats ar ebeing used, like AAC and MPEG4, but we'll see.

Sometimes I can't help but feel you might "shoot yourself in the foot". I.e. people won't use matroska, no matter how great it is, because of the tactics to push it into the lime light. ... we may loose some, but win many much more. And once people have actually been using it, like the guys in the VirtualVCR forums recently, they can become addicted pretty quickly, just like i am ;) ...

For me, it's not a competition, the formats aren't in competition. Its just user choice, if it was a competition then Id expect a winner. .. see, thats my main point. If both OGM and MKV are futher developed and none of them gets hardware support, then in the end MP4 will be the 'winner' and MPEG-LA the laughing third. I am sorry, but IMHO the OGM format has NOTHING to hold against MP4, its worse in every aspect and as soonas an editing tool will be available for MP4, OGM would die. MKV can compete with MP4, its a bit higher in overhead and worse in streaming, but has better editability than MP4.

If I thought it was a competition then that means Ive put myself up against Gabest, Toff, RobUx4, Mosu, etc. Hey, im good, but I aint that good ;) lol .... the speed you made the VC6 compile of libmatroska clearly puts you into the same category Nic, and if i could onyl convince you to become a steady team member ( yes, thats unusual to work in a team maybe ) and develop our mkxds.dll .... :sigh: .....

(I.e I don't fight battles I dont think I can win...which is what I think some of your team sometimes does with the moderator's here...but I don't think of this as a battle or about making things "attractive"). I hope you can see where im coming from :) -Nic

We are not here to fight battles against mods, only against MP4 becoming the next standard container .... and sorry, i dont think there is enough room for 2 opensource containers if any of them would want to achieve that, but maybe its again the marketing guy getting possession of me ....

ps Remember when Tobias made OGM, he was very quiet and didn't need to advertise everywhere to get people to like it. People just took to it. Hopefully matroska can do the same.

First, you maybe forgot that already, but it was me who was pushing OGM a lot at that time, because i didnt know anough about the subject and i loved to use Vorbis with video. Make a search on 'OGM' and go for the very old posts, and look it up if you dont believe me. Tobias' filters were first tested on the powerdivx.com forums, weeks before they made their way to Doom9, and from there we spread the word.

Second, it was the first container to be able to use Vorbis in video, and Vorbis was clearly superior to anything else at this time. Today things have changed, there is a cold wind blowing into OGMs face with strong competiton from many sides, Real being opensource, MP4 being usable already and KV making big improvements every day ...... i promise you, nobody would ever look a it without some form of advertising today ..... but thats another story, we wont find out how things would have been if OGM would have never left powerdivx.com ...

[robUx4]

Well said. That's what the coders behind matroska think too. In the end, no matter how loud you shout here, the user will decide for themselves. And both Nic/Koepi and us are trying to give users the tools and features they like.

Now it's true that Pamel and Christian often try to "force" things a bit. Of course, they are proud of the work we did. It's also a "natural" reaction against all the critics we got when we were creating the format on (electronic) paper and not by starting to code. That may be unusual to talk and say "we have done this thing, it still doesn't exist but it's much better than anything else". It drove mad many people in the end. Especially because we were looking for people from this particular forum to support us or at least check if we did something wrong. All this phase almost lead to angry people about our requests (hopefully some people joined and helped, sometimes the same that worked on OGM)... I think with time and working time it will be fading.

And yes, there's no possible deny that Matroska and OGM are competitors. I'm not going to tell you why and how I prefer one of them. But I think competition is a good thing, a driving force and we can still work all together and share knowledge, for example on how this fucking DirectShow or WMP works.

[Nic]

Ok, I agree with everything robux4 says...I honestly don't think of them as competitors, but I can see why you'd consider them that way.

But Christian's post goes quite off topic, I think (no offense). With "That is where marketing people come from first" I was actually agreeing with "this is where marketing people think different than developers do". But Maybe I stated it wrong.

Advertisment is of course essential to a certain point of view...I/we dont expect you to keep your mouth shut until everything with matroska is all finished. But you have driven the mods crazy, with threads being turned into Matroska threads...I know matroska, when finished, will solved all manner of problems and im sure you're excited about it. But just hold back a little (honestly, I say that for your own good).

Im glad your winning friends at other forums...I don't actually think mp4 will take off as a popular container for the things we(the community) do...only for commercial products. But thats my opinion, and what do I know?.

I know what you mean about the docs bit, and your right if the code hadn't been there first. You write docs to plan, I don't need to plan, I need to finish. Then write the docs. For OGM at present I do believe thats the best way. Im supporting whats already there, not trying to encourage others to use it (i.e. also why I dont see this "competition" thats supposed to be between us)

"but IMHO the OGM format has NOTHING to hold against MP4, its worse in every aspect and as soonas an editing tool will be available for MP4, OGM would die. MKV can compete with MP4"

Then you have nothing to worry about from OGM, so forget all about it. And when im done with it, maybe I can bring what I've learnt to bits of Matroska :)

Just support your userbase and watch it grow...and ill support the OGM one. For example, for people that like using OGM, AAC(+) is hard to insert into it. Ill make it easier, etc. Thats all im doing with OGM, not trying to beat matroska.

"mods here have... [been] ...trying to constantly miscredit our work"...Could you show examples of that? If you want I can show you where you have turned threads upside down, upset mods, etc. Maybe we can both learn something..

Don't worry about this thread. It was f**ked from day one by your Team and others. Ill have this closed once we're done and ill start a fresh.

-Nic

[robUx4]

IN the next thread just state "matroska not allowed" :D

[Nic]

Why do people think im against matroska? Its good there's a discussion between the two. As long as it is technical and not in aid to promote one and poke holes in the other. Maybe we can swap ideas.
Maybe I should write "No Pamel and/or Chris" ;) (just kidding)

Yourself, gabest, toff, etc thoughts will always be welcome :)

-Nic

[Atamido]

Originally posted by Nic
...Where you ask questions you already know the answer too (Or could find out about privately, but do it publically) as to make OGM sound bad and Matroska sound good.... I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. I am asking these questions here because I don't know the answer, and an answer here is a little more permanent. I had a more vested interest because I was trying to make sure that the subtitles would be done properly. I had comments and questions (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57217&perpage=20&pagenumber=3#post342320) before about subtitle storage, but nobody freaking answered them. I was going to bring it back up because you were on the subject of subtitles again. It is really sad to see the several pages of useless content that you and Christian posted back and forth. I even got alot of flack from the Matroska team, first for posting here, second for trying to help out OGM.

You're best bet is to ask Cyrius/Suiryc for an answer,
I have talked to Cyrius about OGM, but I don't think I ever asked about how it did the duration. The reason I didn't ask him again is because he doesn't really care very much about putting other subtitles in OGM, and this is where it needs to be discussed.

OK, It appears the sub_duration is used to state how many "samples" this sub is, which works as a kind duration and means the next granulepos will be set to the time of the next subtitle. If the picture needs to have a moment of no subs, then a blank subtitle is created and inserted. I hope that answers your questions. The source code can explain it better: Packetizer.cpp and SRTReader.cpp in OGMuxer is where to look first. :eek: Useful content! Okay, so it is the same method that MCF uses. You explanation makes perfect sense. It just ends the subtitle whenever it recieves a new one, no matter what the content.

This probably means that to store SSA, you are going to want to use one of the fields within the text to define a duration. I don't think the same method of empty packets would work for SSA because it can do things based on timing. Does anyone know how SSA does its time based effects? (I realize that I could just PM billbaround, or someone else for an answer, but this is much more useful to everyone.)

[DAvenger]

We are not here to fight battles against mods, only against MP4 becoming the next standard container ....

Sorry to say this but MP4 will become industry standard whether you like it or not. Actually, MP4 is very good piece of work ;)

You may argue that it's not free :rolleyes: but that does not necessarily mean it's bad. Well, *regular users do not care! Have you already paid the license fee for that XviD (or any other) decoder installed on your system? :)

As for companies ... they'll care more about whether the format is widely supported rather than the costs associated with it. 99% ;)

and sorry, i dont think there is enough room for 2 opensource containers if any of them would want to achieve that, but maybe its again the marketing guy getting possession of me ....

This may sound a bit harsh but only one who wants to beat someone here is you. I do not believe that Tobias created OGM as the doom's day weapon against MPEG-LA :)

If Xiph people were more interested in container stuff everything could be different now :rolleyes:

Take care,
DA

*not hanging at doom9 and ha.org 24/7

[Koepi]

Boys, calm down.

Christian clearly states he wants OGM to die and expects us to force it - and he enforces that as well.

My conclusion: please keep the marketing outside the tech discussions here. Polarising the people is a bad thing. Period (c)ChrisHJW.

Let's all do what pleases us most, code on our stuff - you do matroska, we do ogm. (I.e. melgish added matroska support to OggMux which Christian considers a bad program. ... Unfortunately the DSF matroska muxer is way inferiour to the OGM one currently, so it doesn't hold anything like named streams, chapters, title, author,... EDIT: hopefully gabest will code that too.)

See, we do our best to support everything and code as long as it's fun. But since you marketing guys are starting a war here it's no longer about fun.

Stop it. I mean it.

I'm sure Chris will squeeze this post upside-down and cut it where it doesn't belong just to make me look bad again, but i'll sure use my powers then as I can't stand it anymore. I've been watching this a longer time now without doing anything and left poor Nic all alone somehow (sorry nic, but here I am now).

I mean this all in a friendly way: concentrate on the basics - coding. This board/forum/community isn't about advertising - it's about things we use and how to improve them. Keep it that way and we're all lucky.

Thanks for respecting this from now on.

Regards
Koepi

[Atamido]

Yay! More useless posts! Oh wait.....

[Atamido]

I'm just posting in the hopes that the next post will be useful, but be on the next page. I would hate for a useful post to be at the bottome of this twenty pages of uselessness, with the exception of about 10 combined lines of actual content.

Wow, my first two strikes ever, and for rule 11 of all things. Don't I feel sheepish. I'm just sad the trick didn't work. I should have posted just once...

[Doom9]

I still tend to believe this is because some of the mods here have other plans than matroska becoming popular and are acting against it by trying to constantly miscredit our work, but this is just my personal opinion and i cant prove that.
As the guy who's responable for making those people moderators I can honestly say that this isn't the case. And especially you should know how much we love advertising over here.. this forum is a prime target for that, because it's rather large, and has an unusually tech savy and knowledgeable audience. If I were to make a post regarding OGM, I do not want to hear that there are alternatives. You don't go telling a guy who has some problems with DVD-Rs, to do DivX instead, or a guy using ReAuthorist, to use DVD Shrink just because its simpler. The same way, when somebody makes a post about MKV, I don't want to hear that OGM can do this and that which isn't yet implemented in Matroska. We even have a forum rule that says "stay on topic". So, if you're a member of the Matroska team, ask yourself, how many times have I posted a line like "with Matroska you could also do xyz", and if you're a member of the OGM team, ask yourself the reverse question. And every time you make a post, remember that question.. you do NOT want to post like that on this board, especially when the thread is about another format.
You are all well aware that AVI is still very much the most popular container, and all that constant bickering will lead people to believe that all the developers of alternative formats do is shout at each other, rather than code.
as el00343 said, the best marketing in our little corner of the world is good code and working programs, not PR blahblah. So, from now on I demand that you stick to producing good code and helping people when they have problems with your programs. Don't even think about trying to get people using a competing format on board... our members are mature enough to make up their own minds and they don't need constant preaching about why format x is so great. You don't see Isibaar spamming the DivX forums with posts why XviD is better (in his opinion that is), yet a lot of people here use XviD. We also have representants from commercial companies here (Karl from Real for instance) who do not try to convert people to their ways, rather help those who've chosen their format out of their own will. You mentioned making propaganda for OGM. I remember that, but compared to the Matroska buzz, your OGM advertising was just a drop in the ocean. I also have to point out that I never made a lot of advertising for my own site, people still found their way and it has become one of the most important sites for the subject.

I certainly do appreciate that the Matroska team is active here, and trying to help people using mkv. Of course you can have technical discussions as well (those best go to the development forum), but when somebody is talking about a competing format, you leave that discussion alone, especially if you have nothing useful contribute that is directly on subject, and that includes criticial questions. If somebody wants to know how matroska works, there are the specs and the sourcecode, for OGM there's just the source but that is enough. I don't see the reason to discuss technical details for an implementation of xyz if you're not actually going to a) use the code, or b) work on the project. I don't think I'm the only one to see how you reacted to such line of questioning from the Xiph people.

Now that you've been given ample warning, the moderator team will no longer tolerate derouting and hijacking of threads in either direction. We have rules against that and many members have wondered why they weren't implemented... they started wondering if some people are more equal than others, but the truth of the matter is that there's no more equal than equal and if the people involved here can't get their acts together and continue making posts that are majoritarily borderline to rules violations, strikes will follow (and that goes both ways). I could also start pointing out that AVI works just fine and is the only sure thing atm... how would you like that? My standalone plays AVIs, no OGMs and no MKVs :P

[Nic]

@Pamel: I didn't mean you to take offense, and if you really did care about subtitle community and just wanted to know about how OGM was going to support it, thats great :) But when someone asks me how OGM supports something that it has been supporting for ages, and has matroska as the only link in their signature...My paranoia kicked in. But I still answered the question (and all Chris' questions) as best as I could.

I also don't think these pages have been useless. Although, id rather it hadn't happened, somethings needed to be said. And I do feel like we're coming to a conclusion.

Just to state my opinion for the final time: I think matroska is great, and in reality it probably has a lot longer future than OGM. I advise everyone that uses OGM to give Matroska a go, but if you're happy with OGM still after that, then im going to try and help support you.

Please take heed of what Doom9 states, it's really is in everyone's interest. And I hope we can all remain friendly :)

Good Luck (& hoping ill still be welcome on #matroska),
-Nic

ps
OT:
I really like the MPEG-LA, after chatting with Larry Horn, I really like what they're are trying to achieve and they're attitude. They are not the bad guys, the patent holders are the bad guys (if there are any bad guys at all)

[Atamido]

@Nic: I would like to take this opportunity to give you a nice big hug for the apology. I'm glad we can all be friends again. ;)

I was going to make the suggestion some time ago to stop using this thread because it is becoming a little to big and hard to find information. Several smaller threads are usually better. Having 5 topics mixed together makes it hard to focus on any of them.

[kxy]

Originally posted by Nic

I advise everyone that uses OGM to give Matroska a go, but if you're happy with OGM still after that, then im going to try and help support you.

Good Luck (& hoping ill still be welcome on #matroska),
-Nic


I was excited about mkv(before it has a name) ever since it has being talked about in blacksun's channel in corecodec years ago. A while ago, I decided to give mkv a try. I found a few bugs and I reported it. In my personal opinion, mkv has not mature yet. And it simply hasn't done more what OGM has to offer currently. Even though OGM is not bug free, but to me it has lesser bugs more features compare to mkv at that moment(from the user end not from the specs). I simply don't have the time to test every build, and keep reporting the problems. So, I am sticking with OGM for now.

[Nic]

I think there are still people that feel that way too kxy. Lets hope matroska matures nicely, and I fix more OGM bugs than I introduce ;)

I think that's this thread settled for now :) . Im going to have it closed if thats ok with everyone.

-Nic

[el00343]

Originally posted by Nic
I think there are still people that feel that way too kxy. Lets hope matroska matures nicely, and I fix more OGM bugs than I introduce ;)

-Nic

You can be sure there are ;)

edit: I was referring to people, but applies to bugs also :D :D

[Doom9]

I'm going to close this thread now. A moderator will soon split off the on-topic posts so that the useful on-topic discussion can go on.