Blended Cartoon Frames

[dar1us]

Hi, I have read the following threads but am not sure if I have the same problem or not... If only they'd post sample frames, the ST ones has them, but I am still not sure.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=43362&perpage=20&highlight=Cartoon&pagenumber=1 (could it be that) or

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=26573&highlight=Cartoon seems to be better

The problem is that I have family guy/futurama/simpsons DVDs that i'd like to rip. The ideal destination would be as follows (in a Synth Script)

Source is PAL DVD Family Guy Season 2

MPEG2Source("C:\Fg\2x01.d2v")
#AC3Source("c:\fg\2x01 AC3 T01 2_0ch 192Kbps DELAY -80ms")
#AutoCrop(mode=0,threshold=80)
# # # # # ADD DEINTERLACING HERE # # # # # #
LanczosResize(320,240) # # # # # or 512x384
SelectEvery(2,0) (half the frame rate to 12.5 to increase compressibility if I use RealMedia, but I am not doing this until progressive good looking frames at full res and speed appear.
AddGrain(8,0.1,0.1)

Sorry, it aint beautiful, I have included other things that I would do on actually making it work. I have missed out all deinterlacing steps. The kind of deinterlacing that should work is simple, something like

SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(2,0)
LanczosResize(320,240) [If I was going to a RealMedia format or 512x384 if I was going to a proper MPEG-4]

But that fails to work.

It deinterlaces it, but leaves many frames which I guess the makers have added to be schnides. I am not sure of the animation process, but I guess that they make cartoons at 12fps and then double the framerate to 24fps blurring the motion. It looks fine on a TV, but with a PC, it is smelly.

Here is the sample of the source I am using (2.38mb): http://freespace.virgin.net/suizie.darrington/theboy.avi. As you can see, it is heavily combed, but if you look carefully at the combing lines, they are not usual, it seems to be doublly combed or something, the lines are just looking plain odd.

I would use a decimation, or a select every processing pattern to remove the bad frames, but if you have a crack at the source with the following script, you see that there are series' of 5 or so 'blended' frames:
AVISource("C:\Yoursource.avi")
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(2,0)

Thinking it was doublly interlaced, I tried deinterlacing (separate fields/selectevery(2,0) it twice so I had a vertical res of 144, but it still wasn't right.

Someone steer me in the right direction,
Your Truely


harrison

[DoW]

Have you given Neuron2's new gen decomb a shot? It can be found in the Avisynth dev forum.

[Awatef]

Take it as a rule: for PAL DVDs, if you apply Telecide (alone!) and don't get smooth panoramics, forget it, just put a FieldDeinterlace (alone!) and live with what you get.

[dar1us]

Don't worry - I am not a n00b. Live with it, but there IS a way to fix it. Come on, experts please help. There will be a way to make it look perfect, you will be able to reproduce what a TV displays.

[dar1us]

Seriously, are people yet to come up with an answer to this, or are people just plain not interested in lending me a hand?

Come on, there will be an answer that will sort out this problem once and for all.

What would give me a good helping hand in working out the soloution is to find out how they transfer the cartoons from progressive frames to end up as a PAL material. I tried assuming a frame rate of 29.97 and then IVTCing it (I know that assuming wasn't necessary but I wanted to end up with 24fps...) forget that line of enquiry, it didn't work. I got left over with bad interlacing lines after de-interlacing it all the ways I can think of. The IVTC method worked with the osbournes, the only issue was that it was jerky in playback every few frames, just it was hard to see that jerk frame when flicking through the output in virtualdub.

I have tried the various filters that I gathered (assumed) were to counteract this problem, repal and [sit walters?] progressive frame restorer. None of which worked very well. PFR was hard because the manual didn't explain the features of it... Or there was no manual, this was a long time ago... But i'd really like to close the topic and get Family Guy looking good. It's my DVD so I can play around with it as long as I like, it's just I feel like there is a simple answer.


harrison

[Wilbert]

I suggest you upload a part of the vob somewhere, and ask Neuron for help:

http://neuron2.net/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/index.php

[Kika]

If the AVI is exactly the same than the VOB, these Blendings are the Result of a quick and dirty NTSC to PAL conversion. I think, there is nothing to Restore without getting jerky motion.

[Acaila]

it's just I feel like there is a simple answer.
Awatef has given you the answer. There's nothing that can be done about it, at least not until someone writes a filter specifically dealing with this (well-known) problem. In that case Neuron2 is indeed your best bet, but for now just try to live with it.

We all had to.

[dar1us]

But the thing is... I have seen other peoples material (not knowing the process they had used) where they dont have this problem AT ALL. It is PAL 25 fps and it looks perfect.

How did they counteract it? There must be a way.

Awatef said live with it... When I post the sample, unless I am doing it horribly wrong, you will agree with me that it is insanely (sp?) out of order!


harrison

ps. Working on a place to upload the sample... It will be about 5 meg or so.

[dar1us]

OK, uploading samples now... They are of one that a friend sent that works fine. The other is of my family guy.

The sample that works is of futurama... I have had the same problems with futurama dvd encodes, they are equally poor. You can see though, that the futurama sample looks fine...

Have a go with the family guy sample and see if you can make it look as decent. I am sure with the high standard of the futurama sample that it is possible.

Good luck

http://freespace.virgin.net/susan.kehaton/futurama_sample.avi
http://freespace.virgin.net/susan.kehaton/familyguy_sample.mpg

Tell me if files dont work or are the wrong ones. If links are wrong, the 2 files are in solitary at http://freespace.virgin.net/susan.kehaton/


harrison

[Wilbert]

I only see the mpg file in your last url. The avi link is not working :(

[Si]

I tried looking an your familyguy sample mpeg.

In some of the fields there is obviously information from 2 separate source frames.

No known technique can sort this out - its like trying to get the eggs and flour out of a cake once its been cooked.:(

I'd like to suggest that if your friends have good avi's then they were probably made from original NTSC DVDs before the blends were applied as part of the conversion to PAL process.

I hope you get a result (because a lot of people are seeking it) but I think you need to count the "Sorry -can't be done answers" :)

regards
Simon
PS PFR is easy to use
AVISource("Test.avi")
PFR()
return last :)
(it won't help on your stuff but its good with Star Trek :p )

[bilu]

The clip is full of blended fields :eek:

The only help resources that could (not garanteed) help you are:

Progressive Frame Restorer - for
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49815

As the author says: "It's useful (well I use it anyway ) for trying to restore film originated material thats had special effects added, converted to 30 fps NTSC, sent across the water, converted to PAL 25fps, broadcast and then captured."

EDIT: Seems he answered first :D

Unblend: Deblend with YV12
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55019

Deblend
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54816


Neuron2 can't help much on the blended frames subject, but you could try in his forum too, there are others that could be able to help (don't raise your hopes too high though :rolleyes: )


Hope this helps.

Bilu

[dar1us]

Hi, going to have another go with UNBLEND...

I am just curious on how to use it... Not the settings or such like, but where to put it in my script for optimum results. What kind of settings I should push into it.

My script:
MPEG2Source("C:\fg\sample.d2v").ConverttoYV12()
Autocrop(mode=0)
FieldDeinterlace(show=true) # or it can be /Telecide()
LanczosResize(512,384)
AddGrain(8,0.2,0.2)

Cheers for the speedy replies... All links work now. I just walked away with out starting the transfer (via explorer as I just reformatted - got, it is as unstable as an Irishman (for the slower witted, they are reputedly drunk, though we love them)).


harrison

Addition:

Ah-ha, I see there is a usage guide at the deblend thread.

I tried:

MPEG2Source("C:\fg\sample.d2v").ConverttoYV12()
Autocrop(mode=0)
Bob()
Unblend()
SelectEven()
LanczosResize(512,384)
AddGrain(8,0.2,0.2)

Results were promising! I still got left with a load of artifacts (in the shape of strange ghosting), but most of the blending was gone. Especially in the segment where the image wipes into that of Peter and the Dog (cant remember name off the top of my head) are running towards the Quahog Channel 5 building.

I do have a lot of staircase effect stuff. Should this be present, If I reduce resoloution to about 352x288 it is gone. But ideally, my encodes of this will be at 512x384 or 576x432; depends how the results look at four episodes per 700 meg disc.

I feel that I am getting somewhere now. Again, thanks for the blisteringly fast responses.


harrison