RealMedia Alternative

[ZiPo]

I've created a RealMedia codec pack for users that don't want to install the official RealOne Player (like me, hehe)
I hope the name is okey (here i'm thinking of Quicktime Alternative...) if not, please say so, and i'll change it ;)

The pack is around 5mb and you can get it here
http://users.cybercity.dk/~dsl31430/realmediaalt100.exe

[pacohaas]

never installed realplayer on this computer, decided to try this along with WMPClassic (newest version 6.4.5.6) and it's a no-go. says realone player or realplayer is needed to play rm files.

[Animaniac]

Isn't there already a Real Alternative (by the same person as Quick Time alternative)? Or are you that person?

[Sirber]

Codec Packs including Real codecs are illegal.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Sirber
Codec Packs including Real codecs are illegal.

/me wonders again if Sirber is maybe on the payroll of some well known company, as he feels like having to remind us all about such things ...

[karl_lillevold]

It is sad how RealPlayer's reputation prevents people from trying out RV9 and RV9-EHQ. Its quality really deserves a look, IMbiasedO. RealPlayer has behaved badly, no doubt, and even the latest RealOne has some annoying features, included to try and sell subscriptions and advertising, this is admittedly true.

However, it is possible to install it, disable these features, then forget all about it, and run MPC to play RV9 forever after. Please take a look at this thread for how:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48179

Personally, I am happy as long as it is easy to play back RV9.. :scared:

However, my company does put importance into the number of installations of its multimedia player. BTW, the latest version is called RealOne, and is much better than before. Especially the upcoming version is in fact pretty darn nice with some cool new features.

In any case, codec pack users or RealPlayer haters, I have verified (after filing bugs on it) that in the upcoming RealOne player, both background processes and the Message Center can be disabled without having to move away files (as described in the thread above). It is still a rather full-featured player, and there is a sign-in process when it is first used, but I am afraid removing these would be hard. Which other concerns do you have that I may (or may not) be able to address?

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold Which other concerns do you have that I may (or may not) be able to address? ... the REAL codec API ( if there is one at all ), so we can use your codcs independantly, or even start building a new opn codec API based on it :D .... j/k ... thx for the clariifying words Karl ...

[pacohaas]

the aformentioned thread links to a "direct download page", though once you try to download the windows version it sends you through the infamous real webtrap, where all your attention is drawn to the "FREE 7-DAY TRIAL" in the middle of the screen, and the actual link to the free player is somewhere off in the upper right corner. Now if you come to the supposed "direct download" page for the free player and you see this all CAPS link to something FREE, wouldn't you assume that that's what the direct download was for? How about linking it to the actual file the way a direct download should be, or not calling it a direct download at all, but rather a link to the real network web circus.

[Sirber]

Your comment is quite aggressive...

But you know... sometime web sites are not well constructed. Have you ever tryed to find something on microsoft.com? You can always find things elsewhere, like on Kazaa, eMule, or google.com. Try this link from download.com given for free by Sirber :D

RealOne Player v2 gold:
http://download.com.com/3000-2194-10153493.html

Have fun!!!

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by pacohaas
the aformentioned thread links to a "direct download page", though once you try to download the windows version it sends you through the infamous real webtrap
Shoot, they changed this over the last few days, and I did not know. It used to be so simple, now it's all complicated again.

EDIT: link problem corrected. The link temporarily required another field to get around the re-direction.

[outlyer]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
It is sad how RealPlayer's reputation prevents people from trying out RV9 and RV9-EHQ. Its quality really deserves a look, IMbiasedO. RealPlayer has behaved badly, no doubt, and even the latest RealOne has some annoying features, included to try and sell subscriptions and advertising, this is admittedly true.
IMAlsoBiasedO Real won't be able to lose this reputation until it stops forcing users to install its bloated player and using the traps pacohaas mentioned.

The helixcommunity is a nice initiative and it probably gives some new impressions to developers but for end users Real still looks and smells like Real.

[karl_lillevold]

i apologize for the "direct download" link info. It has been working for several months, but was changed to require some additional information.

Again, the link in this thread works:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48179

Yes, RealOne is a rather big and full-featured player, some features are very nice though. Just wait and see. I do use MPC myself though, for all other media types, and love it.

[pacohaas]

thanks for the link karl! I didn't mean my last post to be hostile, I guess that's just the tone I took when I was tossed frome page to page. It's good to see that some people are out to change not only the image and reputation, but the actual product for the better.

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by outlyer
IMAlsoBiasedO Real won't be able to lose this reputation until it stops forcing users to install its bloated player and using the traps pacohaas mentioned. Actually, IMO, I think the biggest problem is the people that insist on using RP8 for this supposed 'lean-ness'. Why would you want to continue to cripple yourself using RP8 when RealOne V2 is so much nicer. Are you masochistic? :confused:

Edit:

This is not to say that RealOne V2 is not bloated. But it's far better than RP8.

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold

Which other concerns do you have that I may (or may not) be able to address? This, i'm sure, goes against what marketing wants, but might there be any chance to make the "features" to be optionally installable? Like the option to take over (or not takeover) file associations and such.

---

I found something called the "Enterprise" edition of RealOne. According to the webpage it has all the consumer features taken out. The jukebox, the message center, radio tuner, cd maker, etc.

It did appear to be outdated vs the consumer RealOne V2. (for example, it will play RV9 files, but display the RA8 logo instead of RV9. This problem existed in the consumer RealOne player when RV9 had just been released.

Maybe could marketing comprimise on an updated build of this "Enterprise" edition only promoted here on doom9?

[slavickas]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
i apologize for the "direct download" link info. It has been working for several months, but now they have replaced it with the annoying web trap, as you so accurately describe it.

Here is a link (http://www.real.com/R/RC.060203r1cp_choice_dl.bodymain.img..R/forms.real.com/real/realone/realone.html?dc=619618617&type=dl&beta_bypass=true&bbits=true&src=downloadr,061603r1choice_c1_2_2,060203r1cp_choice_dl) that may work, but I bet not for long. use mozilla, opera (go norway!), firebird, or netscape. Avoid IE as it will start an ActiveX download app (harmless though, but still a little scary).

Yes, RealOne is a bloated player. :angry: I use MPC myself, and love it.

isn't RealOne Enterprise Desktop less bloated way to get "officially" codecs and use mpc?

[iwod]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Shoot, they changed this over the last few days, and I did not know. It used to be so great, now it's all complicated again. Marketing people must have had their way. I will update my info page.

I am getting the feeling that karl really loves the codec ( as he has done a lot of work on it )

But has been let down by his own company player......

Personally i still don't like to sign up for a player....

As for the enterprise version......... i am interested as well.......

But i still would like to see a DDshow player filter.....

Karl said it is technically possible......... may be one day my C++ skill is good enough i will make one.......

[karl_lillevold]

Actually, I like RealOne, but it is very full-featured, and there are a few steps needed to configure it to behave the way I prefer (see other thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48179) - it does not take over filetypes unless you configure it to - and "custom" install is needed).

I understand the desire to have your favorite choice of a small player only, even though I do not quite understand how problematic it is to have those RealOne features, just never use them... Still, users want to choose their own player, regardless of format, and a general DirectShow filter would provide this ability. It is possible to write one, but the powers-that-decide have not made that a priority, one reason is like I mentioned, the number of RealOne installations. I think the quality and features of the player should be the main selling factor, not the quality of the video (RV9 and RV9-EHQ).

What I really dislike and always have, is the web trap. A nice and simple direct download link should be available, instead of having to really search for the "free player" link among lots of other pay for links. When you do install the free player, I am afraid there is enough upsell there already, and the web trap is just annoying users before they even have a chance to download it.

I am, however, not able to understand how RP8 is still recommended by some. This is a really buggy and badly behaving player, and I would much much rather do the steps needed to make RealOne behave.

With regards to the Enterprise edition, this sounds like a nice version, but I have not tried it myself. My one big concern, though, which is also true for RP8, is that some components that are really important for smooth high quality playback, are not updated. Specifically, the video renderer is so critical for smooth, jitter-free, full-screen playback on all video cards, and the latest version of this has many improvements, especially the one which will be included with the next RealOne.

[iwod]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
Actually, I like RealOne, but it is very full-featured, and there are a few steps needed to configure it to behave the way I prefer (see other thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48179) - it does not take over filetypes unless you configure it to - and "custom" install is needed).

I understand the desire to have your favorite choice of a small player only, even though I do not quite understand how problematic it is to have those RealOne features, just never use them... Still, users want to choose their own player, regardless of format, and a general DirectShow filter would provide this ability. It is possible to write one, but the powers-that-decide have not made that a priority, one reason is like I mentioned, the number of RealOne installations. I think the quality and features of the player should be the main selling factor, not the quality of the video (RV9 and RV9-EHQ).

What I really dislike and always have, is the web trap. A nice and simple direct download link should be available, instead of having to really search for the "free player" link among lots of other pay for links. When you do install the free player, I am afraid there is enough upsell there already, and the web trap is just annoying users before they even have a chance to download it.

I am, however, not able to understand how RP8 is still recommended by some. This is a really buggy and badly behaving player, and I would much much rather do the steps needed to make RealOne behave.

With regards to the Enterprise edition, this sounds like a nice version, but I have not tried it myself. My one big concern, though, which is also true for RP8, is that some components that are really important for smooth high quality playback, are not updated. Specifically, the video renderer is so critical for smooth, jitter-free, full-screen playback on all video cards, and the latest version of this has many improvements, especially the one which will be included with the next RealOne.

As i have siad before. Some people who THINKS they know a lot about computer ( well.... they do.... but not alot about video encoding and real ) keeps on telling people to use RP8. The reason behind is simple. They thought there is too much in RealONE and it is bloated ( most of the time bloated means resources hog ) and therefore use Rp8.

For the power to decide thing about DDshow player filter.... should we open up a pentiton about it?

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by iwod
... keeps on telling people to use RP8. The reason behind is simple. They thought there is too much in RealONE and it is bloated ( most of the time bloated means resources hog ) and therefore use Rp8.
Re RP8: this is rather funny. RP8 was a real resource hog, got such a bad rep for it. So there was a big push to optimize memory use, startup times, everything. All of this went into RealOne, so even though it has more features, it is lighter and faster, and more resource friendly than RP8. RP8 would even install itself in memory to try and improve startup times (like mozilla) unless you configured it not too. RealOne does not, but it is not the smallest player, no doubt about it.

[S_O]

But i still would like to see a DDshow player filter.....
At least there will be a parser filter, Milan (the author of ffdshow) is adding audio decoder at the moment to ffdshow, and he wants to create a parser, too. This parser will also be able to parse real media, because ffmpeg is able to read it. Unfortunately, only for Real Video 1 (H.263), Real Audio 1 (14.4) and Real Audio 2 (28.8) (Real Audio 3?) are free open-source decoders avaible, so most real media files will not be playable.
Maybe when the parser is finished someone else could create decoder filters for the other codecss using the DLLs from Helix.
How many different codecs does Real Media have? I know that there is Real Video 1, Real Video 2 and Real Video 3 and Real Video 9, but there must be somewhat in between, waht are the "G2" codecs for example? Are all codecs completly except RV1 (H.263) properitary? I know there are also two different Real Audio 8, "RA8" and "RA 8", "RA 8" is Atrac3. Is there a full list somewhere?

That is a other bad thing I hate in Real, could it be possible to separate all codecs, that bitrate setting and used codec is separated. Maybe in "Advanced Mode" and could it be possible to encode in _all_ codecs, not only the newest, maybe for compability with (very) old Real Players.

[31 Flavas]

The Helix Producer GUI (made by Real) can backwards encode to G2 (RV7 AFAIK).

Why would you want to backwards encode to anything beyond that? If your audience doesn't have G2 capable players, tell them to get up to date.

[Sirber]

@S_O

Why would you want to encode in old format? RV9 is the best in RV serie. RP8 can play it too.

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by Sirber
@S_O

Why would you want to encode in old format? RV9 is the best in RV serie. RP8 can play it too. Well, not all RP8's can autoupdate only the Windows versions can, AFAIK. And even still many Windows users may not allow RP8 to autoupdate, because they have told ZoneAlarm to not allow it internet access.

@S_O

RealProducer 8.5 may be able to back encode to RV5, possibly. I still don't know why you'd want to back encode that far. Tell your audience to update their freaking player :)

[karl_lillevold]

the freeplayer link has been corrected. they had changed it such that without a certain field added to the URL it would re-direct to the default page, and my link did not include this field. However, it has now been changed back to not require this field.

http://www.real.com/freeplayer/?rppr=d9

[IE will still download via ActiveX control]

If this takes you to the "upsell" page after clicking on the download link for any platform, let me know and I will update.

[karl_lillevold]

@S_O:

RealVideo codecs listed by 4cc code:
rv10 : RealVideo 1.0 aka RealVideo 5
rv20 : RealVideo G2 and RealVideo G2+SVT
rv30 : RealVideo 8
rv40 : RealVideo 9
I could explain the version numbering, but it would take a long time, and everybody would have lost interest by the end.

There are two different RealAudio 8 music codecs:
RealAudio "native" used for 96 kbps and below.
RealAudio ATRAC3 used for > 96 kbps.

There is also a list of voice codecs. For a complete list of audio codecs, please see
http://service.real.com/help/library/guides/helixproducer/Producer.htm
Click on the "RealAudio Codec Reference" link in the left column.

That is a other bad thing I hate in Real, could it be possible to separate all codecs, that bitrate setting and used codec is separated. Maybe in "Advanced Mode" and could it be possible to encode in _all_ codecs, not only the newest, maybe for compability with (very) old Real Players.
In the latest Producer it is possible to specify RVG2, RV8, or RV9. Considering the improvements in quality, we would prefer everyone use RV9 of course. I do believe it is possible to encode with multiple codecs at the same time. The Producer 9.2 job file now supports multiple outputs, where each output can have a different codec, for instance RV9 and MPEG-4. RV1.0 is no longer available, it became too hard to maintain all previous codecs.

Here is the spec for the upcoming Producer 9.2 and all its new features:
https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/specs/Producer9.2/9.2Release/index.htm

[Sirber]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
@S_O:

RealVideo codecs listed by 4cc code:
rv10 : RealVideo 1.0
rv20 : RealVideo G2
rv30 : RealVideo 8
rv40 : RealVideo 9


where is v3, v4, v5, v6 and v7? There is a suddent jump from 2 to 8 :D

[avih]

Karl, i just wanted to say thank you for your involvment in our board, your very valuable contributions, and your calmness. i wish an MS guy (amir?) would hang out here and help people as much as you do, and also the DivX ppl started showing up lately (Darrius).

thank you again, and keep up the good work (but be carefull, we don't want u kicked out of REAL for making too 'liberal' posts ;) )

cheers mate
avih.

[S_O]

rv10 : RealVideo 1.0
rv20 : RealVideo G2
rv30 : RealVideo 8
rv40 : RealVideo 9Thank you very much! That is what I wanted to know, so there are not so many differnt video codecs as I thought.

But for the audio codecs I still don´t have a complete list, what I got now:

14_4: Real Audio 1? (open-source decoder avaible?!)
28_8: Real Audio 2? (open-source decoder avaible?!)
dnet: Real Audio 3? (open-source decoder avaible?!)
sipr: Voice Codec?
cook: Real Audio 8?
atrc: Atrac3
ralf: Real Audio Lossless Format
whrl: Real Multichannel Audio
vorbis: Vorbis

Which codecs are missing? What is wrong? Are all codecs with the identifier "cook" for example bitstream-compatible, or maybe only downward-compatible?
Here is a player, containing open-source decoder for Real Audio 1, 2 and 3: http://www.honeypot.net/audio/
What is the differnce Real Audio 1/2/3? Does they have different bitstreams, or the same codec at different bitrate?

Edit: Also found 14_4, 28_8 and dnet.

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by Sirber
where is v3, v4, v5, v6 and v7? There is a suddent jump from 2 to 8 :D RealVideo started at version 5, AFAIK. Previously, Real only did streaming audio. Also, again AFAIK, there was no RV6, and G2 = RV7.

[karl_lillevold]

actually, RealVideo 1.0, the first /video/ version was also known as RealVideo 5. RealVideo G2 and G2+SVT (Scalable Video Technology) were bitstream compatible, and you can also call them '6' and '7' but those version numbers were not really used much. Still, there are only 4 codec flavors, as listed above. See, I said it was a long story...

EDIT:
..and we plan on sticking with RV9 for a while, and continue to improve it, as can be seen from RV9-EHQ, which in terms of video quality per bitrate, or compression efficiency, outperforms even H.264.

more info on audio codecs shortly.

[Ramirez]

@Karl
I'd like to read more about Helix Producer Activex control SDK (https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/specs/Producer9.2/9.2Release/index.htm#4_ActiveX_Control) (Paragraph-4, ActiveX Control Feature Specification (https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/Projects/Producer9.2/Specs/ActiveX/index.htm) .)
but the link seem to be dead (Error-404), can you please check it out?.

Thanks!

[karl_lillevold]

Audio codecs:
cook: RealAudio, partly named after developer (office next to mine)
atrc: ATRAC3
sipr: Sipro voice codec
ralf: RealAudio Lossless format (new in Producer 9.2 *)
whrl: RealAudio Multi-channel (new in Producer 9.2 *)
vorbis: indeed, true Vorbis, needs DLLs from Xiph

*)
Neither ralf nor whrl will play in existing players. whrl may change its 4cc code to cook, and be integrated in existing cook instead of residing in its own DLL.

All cook flavors are compatible, the different flavors are different bitrates.

RA 1/2/3 are all very different codecs, the bitstreams are different and are not compatible with each other or RA8.

@avih: thanks for your feedback and concern!

The only real criticism I have posted is against the player web trap, which really annoys me, and I am not going to take that back. There is enough advertising and upsell elsewhere, and passing along where to get a free player should not involve telling people "and then look for the little link in the upper right corner that says Free Player". It currently is a very nice player, with cool features, if people took the time to try it out, and an un-deserved bad reputation, that should not be tarnished by the initial impression of an offensive sales pitch page making it hard to get. The upcoming version is really nice, but can't say anything about that yet.

Fortunately the freeplayer link, which was broken for a while, now again works, without any un-necessary re-directions.

[slavickas]

Originally posted by karl_lillevold
...
There are two different RealAudio 8 music codecs:
RealAudio "native" used for 96 kbps and below.
RealAudio ATRAC3 used for > 96 kbps.
...
[/url] [/B]

actually atrac has 66 and 94 kbps modes ;)

btw are cook'ers being updated sometimes, or they remnais the same?

btw2 have anybody compared 96 cook vs 94 atrac? at lest for me atrac sounds better

[karl_lillevold]

Originally posted by Ramirez
I'd like to read more about Helix Producer Activex control SDK (https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/specs/Producer9.2/9.2Release/index.htm#4_ActiveX_Control) (Paragraph-4, ActiveX Control Feature Specification (https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/Projects/Producer9.2/Specs/ActiveX/index.htm))
but the link seem to be dead (Error-404), can you please check it out?.

Thanks for pointing this out. The link will be corrected, but in the meantime, here is the correct link:
https://helix-producer.helixcommunity.org/specs/Producer9.2/ActiveX/index.htm

I have not tried using this myself, but it is pretty useful, according to feedback that has passed me by.

[Ramirez]

Thanks! :)

[DaWolf]

Machine: Celereon 1.7 GHz, 384 MB RAM, Windows XP Pro

Player: Windows Media Player 6.4
Startup: 3.764
SVCD: 15.596 (* 6.104 after minimizing/restoring)
CPU: 26-35%


Player: Windows Media Player 9
Startup: 3.300
SVCD: 12.472
CPU: 26-33 %


Player: RealOne V2 (player only!)
Startup: 4.228
SVCD: 9.968
CPU: 25-35%


Player: WinDVD 3.0
Startup: 14.908
SVCD: 13.232 (* 7.076 after minimizing/restoring)
CPU: 33-47%

(*) you can reduce the memory load by minimizing and then restoring the player.

And of course there's a bunch of others to try.

On at least my system RealOne is not the resource hog it's made out to be. With 384 MB RAM to go around, on system startup usually 127 MB distributed among "stuff" I have enough here to not worry about 2 MB more or less. On my first Pentium-100 with 32KB RAM it would have mattered to me - not now.

WMP 6.4 and WinDVD actually seem to consume more RAM on my system unless I would minimize/restore them. I'm sure not many of us are in the habbit of doing so before watching a movie!

If I were aggresively opposed to the player I would simply not use it. But I have 90 GB of HD space in my system so I would just install it for the codecs and forget about it. Again, on my first Pentium-100 with 1 GB HD (ouch) it would have mattered, now it doesn't.

OK, I have to admit I'm a sucker for new "toys" although I do trash them if they don't live up to everyday demands. RealOne was a nice toy. During the Gulf War II I often would have the news in the player on top while browsing in the attached browser (@ Karl: now that thing produces way too much script errors...). I grew to like it and have *gasp* purchased the plus version. I use it daily and love it. I use the media library as well, having a quick overview of what goodies I have on my HD's. As a devoted Musicmatch Jukebox user it means a lot to me that it drew me away from that player (although I still use it to super-tag a bunch of MP3's).

Signing in for a player? I never notice it. I have a DSL connection and when I start the player, bang, there it is. The sign in feature is of course much more fun if you would have one of the premium content subscriptions. I had the 30 day free trial and it's damned handy to be at another computer at another location, sign in to a RealOne player and the player goes into Plus mode and you can reach your subscription content. (Of course I dropped out after the trial: premium content shouldn't just mean that you pay for it - it should mean it's good content that's worth 10 expensive US dollars a month!).

There are only a few programs that make it through an....uh... "extended" trial period. RealOne is one of the programs that got my vote by receiving my money. It joined ranks with WinRAR, Newsbin, Forte Agent and some other stuff.

I'm looking forward to V3 :-)

Ruud

[S_O]

After reading all this, I finnaly uninstalled Real Player 8 and installed RealOne 2 Gold. I must say, the player is better than I expected. I don´t like the design, but it loads faster than RP8 and don´t want you to register every start-up.

One thing, I downloaded this 8MB player and then, after intstalling it I wanted to play something: RealOne has to download additional sofware to play this media.

But at least it tells me what to download: DolbyNet(tm) Audio Codec. Now I know why the RealAudio 1/2/3 decoder has included liba52 (Dolby Digital Decoder). It seems that RealAudio 3 is simply a low bitrate version of AC3. But why cannot all codecs included in this 8MB installer? 100KB more or less doesn´t matter.

[karl_lillevold]

@DaWolf: thanks for posting such detailed information and good feedback! R1P's In-Mem memory usage also drops significantly after a minimize/restore.. This must be a Win2K/XP thing.. Maybe it just swaps out pages not used for a while. Igor Arsenin's TaskInfo 2003 shows that the Total Memory use stays the same thoug, both for WMP and R1P, during the minimize/restore cycle.

@S_O: The big leap! Glad it turned out okay.