Nero AC3 Plugin (based on azid and ac3enc)

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by Wilbert
It would be nice if it supports faac (= free) instead of psytel, cause the latter has this channel mapping bug. so how about someone takes the quicktime-cli source-code and the nero-cli source-code and faac's source-code and builds a single executable that does it all ?

i would have done so, but have 0 free time.

come on, there must be another developer around who could contribute !
Nic can do this (actually, he can do ANYTHING), but he's been really busy lately.
perhaps valex has some free time.. ?

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by Wilbert
It would be nice if it supports faac (= free) instead of psytel, cause the latter has this channel mapping bug. so how about someone takes the quicktime-cli source-code and the nero-cli source-code and faac's source-code and builds a single executable that does it all ?

then, AacMachine will support this exectuable.

another approach is supporting BeSweet.dll in this unified executable and so we have a complete solution in a single tool.

i would have done so, but have 0 free time.

come on, there must be another developer around who could contribute !
Nic can do this (actually, he can do ANYTHING), but he's been really busy lately.
perhaps valex has some free time.. ?

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by DSPguru i would have done so, but have 0 free time.

DG, sorry for jumping in so late here, and its well possible i completely miss the point now as i cant read the whole thread, but wouldnt it be a much easier and better way if you could simply change the channel order in BeSweet if you are writing AIFF files ? This is working perfectly for me until today, and will allow all the normalizing and sampling rate conversions of BeSweet, and without the stupid WAV file size limitations.

menno told me that he thinks that you are using a WAV channel order for 5.1 files when writing AIFF files, and that you obviously dont knwo that there is a standard 5.1 channel order for those.

Wouldnt this be the easiest solution ?

[DSPguru]

the current 6chaiff feature is used in tools like dvd2svcd to encode to 5.1mp2 with the phillips encoder. the channel ordering is compatible with their tools.

i can add another switch for creating an alternative 6chaiff with different mapping. what is that mapping that nero needs ?

[Wilbert]

AFAIK the standard aiff channel order is:

FL
RL
C
FR
RR
LFE

I guess Nero6 does it correctly now [in Nero5 you had to give aiff/wav the same ordening as the aac], and wants this ordening.

[calinb]

Originally posted by Wilbert

I guess Nero6 does it correctly now [in Nero5 you had to give aiff/wav the same ordening as the aac], and wants this ordening.
I have the latest Nero6 (NeroMix) and, if I use BeSweet to mux 6 wav files, I've found the correct order to be:
C
FL
FR
SL
SR
LFE

At least that's the order of the files in my list.mux file that I use to generate an aif file. This is my workaround (6 posts down--about 1/2 way through the post):
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=376653#post376653

[Wilbert]

But you are creating an AC3 with this order, don't you (cause that's the channel ordening in an AC3 file)?

edit: it's indeed the AAC ordening, like said below.

[calinb]

Originally posted by Wilbert
But you are creating an AC3 with this order, don't you (cause that's the channel ordening in an AC3 file)?
No, I'm creating an aac/mp4 file. That channel order works in Nero6 "Mix" for both AC3 file input (using the AC3 plugin) or 6 wav files muxed with BeSweet to an aif input file. I used the AC3 stream in this file to check it:

http://web.rekvizit.ru/drivers/DVD/ac3test/ac3test.zip

I listened to the AC3 file. I listened to each of the (mono) wav files that I extracted from the AC3 file with BeSweet (6wav output). I listened to the final mp4 file. All six channels were correct in all cases and each of the 6 wav files contained the correct content. I have no idea if they are "correct" in the intermediate aif file because I don't have anything that will play 6ch. aif, but I assume that they are correct because Nero produces the correct output. If this is not the case, is the Nero aif plugin assuming an incorrect order (AC3 ordering rather than aif ordering) for 6ch aif input?

[bond]

C, FL, FR, SL, SR, LFE - is the official aac channel order
FL, C, FR, SL, SR, LFE - is the official ac3 channel order

it is possible to change the channel order in the nero ac3 plugin...

[calinb]

Originally posted by bond
it is possible to change the channel order in the nero ac3 plugin...
Right, but because the nero ac3 plugin can't do much processing other than preset gain and normalize, we've been trying to do some pre-processing with BeSweet (like downsampling to 44.1 and two-pass gain/normalize, etc. Unfortunately, the only way I've found to do this and get the correct channel order in the final Nero aac/mp4 file, is to go AC3 >> 6 wavs >> list.mux file >> aif >> aac/mp4. BeSweet is used for all but the last step.

Bond, thanks for the "spec." Looks like Nero aac/mp4 plugin always wants the input in AAC order, right?

[bond]

Originally posted by calinb
Unfortunately, the only way I've found to do this and get the correct channel order in the final Nero aac/mp4 file, is to go AC3 >> 6 wavs >> list.mux file >> aif >> aac/mp4. BeSweet is used for all but the last step.it is also possible to change the channel order already in besweet under azid (the same way the plugin can change it)

[calinb]

Originally posted by bond
it is also possible to change the channel order already in besweet under azid (the same way the plugin can change it)

Well, have you tried this? Neither ChristianHJW nor I could get that to work. It doesn't matter what order you specify in the azid command, it never changes the output order.

Bond, P.S. Isn't that a new icon/badge you're sporting in the forums? Congrats!

[mfluder]

Here is what Menno said about the input channel order of the latest AAC plugin:


This channel ordering has already been solved. And the next version of the plugin will assume l/r/c/lfe/sl/sr (standard WAV ordering) input.

Mind you that he posted this on August 17, so that means that the latest Nero 6.0.0.15 comes with AAC plugin with that input order. You can find the whole thread here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=12034) (which was btw started by our very own bond).

I have also verified this by changing the output order of the AC3 plugin to the one from Menno's post and just to make sure by decoding AC3 to WAV using BeSweet. Everything sounds as it suppose to so this is the channel order you have to use to get correct results.

Hope this helps,
mfluder

Edit: I almost forgot to congratulate bond on his new status, so congratulations bond :)

[calinb]

Hmmm, this shouldn't be so hard, right? I have the latest NeroMIX (1.4.0.4) but I only have Nero Ultra Edition 6.0.0.11. I guess I'll install 6.0.0.15 and see if anything's changed.

[bond]

Originally posted by calinb
Well, have you tried this? Neither ChristianHJW nor I could get that to work. It doesn't matter what order you specify in the azid command, it never changes the output order. :eek: i have to admit i never tried it (dont have a 5.1 system)

Originally posted by mfluder
I almost forgot to congratulate bond on his new status, so congratulations bond :)Bond, P.S. Isn't that a new icon/badge you're sporting in the forums? Congrats!thanks for the congratulations :)

which was btw started by our very own bond :D

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by calinb
I have the latest Nero6 (NeroMix) and, if I use BeSweet to mux 6 wav files, I've found the correct order to be:
C
FL
FR
SL
SR
LFE Originally posted by bond
C, FL, FR, SL, SR, LFE - is the official aac channel order a match !

[ChristianHJW]

You guys are great :D !!! So i need to update Nero from .11 to .15 and all is fine ?

So, BeSweet [ azid -ota --> ssrc 48->44.1 32 FP --> AIFF ] --> Nero 6.x.x.15 [ AIFF --> MP4 HE-AAC ] --> mkvmerge

is my way now :D !!!! Cheers !

[DSPguru]

i really don't know if "all is fine". i didn't test nero..

all i can say is that if you guys want, i can add a new switch to create a 6chaiff with channels mapping stated by calinb & bond.

[mfluder]

It's true, the channel order stated by calinb and bond was the correct one in previous releases but starting the latest Nero 6.0.0.15 release this channel order has been changed to the one from Menno's post: l/r/c/lfe/sl/sr (standard WAV ordering). This also aplies to AIFF.

So DSPguru you don't have to change anything, calinb just needs to download the latest release of Nero and all is fine. But I wouldn't mind if you make direct AC3 -> AAC transcoding possible in your great tool using nencode code :D

mfluder

[bobsc]

Originally posted by mfluder
So DSPguru you don't have to change anything, calinb just needs to download the latest release of Nero and all is fine. But I wouldn't mind if you make direct AC3 -> AAC transcoding possible in your great tool using nencode code :D
I wouldn't mind either :D

[calinb]

Originally posted by mfluder
calinb just needs to download the latest release of Nero and all is fine.

I wish :( I downloaded Nero 6.0.0.15 (the latest) and updated. It installed Aac.dll dated 8/20/2003. (The latest NeroMix, 1.4.0.4, still contains Aac.dll dated 7/21/2003.)

Unfortunately, the newest dll doesn't produce mp4 files that playback with 3ivx splitter >> CoreAAC. I checked with graphedit too and it just crashes like wmp8 and mpc. Files I encoded with the older dll still play fine and new files play okay (2 ch. only) with NeroMix.

So I copied Aac.dll 7/21/2003 back to my system and all is well again--except I'm back to the terrible channel order workaround!

Anyone run into this?

DSPguru, if you add the switch to create a 6chaiff with the C,L,R,SL,SR,LFE order, it appears to still be useful :). Yeah, nencode capability would be even better, but I think we'll still have to deal with the channel order or Aac.dll problem.

[calinb]

Looks like Nero 6.0.0.19 is out, with the same problem!
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62570&highlight=3ivx+AND+nero

WRT aac encodings made with the new Aac.dll:

1. I tried muxing .mp4 to ogm using the 3ivx splitter--same crash! (Oggmuxer/Nic's Oggmux would probably still work for LC-AAC, but without the 3ivx splitter workaround for the SBR tag, HE-AAC is not possible.)

2. I tried muxing .mp4 to mkv using mkvmerge 7.0--success!

3. I tried muxing .aac file to mp4 with mp4creator60--success!

So it appears that 3ivx splitter is incomaptible with the newest Nero AAC.

All of the above was done with 5.1 HE-AAC audio and yes, the new Aac.dll produces the new channel order--at least I believe so. I'll know after I listen on my 5.1 HTPC. I just have headphones now.

[DSPguru]

currently, there are no plans for integrating Nero's commercial tools with BeSweet. sorry..

i have added a new switch for azid, already supported by BeSweetGUI :
-azid( -oc,l,r,sl,sr,lfe )

i'll upload a new v1.5b21 binary later today.
you'll find the new switch in the "changes.txt" file.

[sillKotscha]

Originally posted by DSPguru
currently, there are no plans for integrating Nero's commercial tools with BeSweet. sorry..



hi Dg,

not the comercial tools but what about Nencode (as already mentioned...)

A great tool is now being hosted at RareWares: NEncoder, by darp, is a command line utility that uses the Nero AAC DLLs to encode wave files from the command line. It's available at the AAC section.

about the new build - very nice, thank you Sir!

cheers Sill

[gubbah]

I had the 3ivx problem too when I installed Nero 6.0.0.19...I just unregistered NeVideo.ax in the "C:\Program Files\Common Files\Ahead\DSFilter" directory and re-installed 3ivx and everything worked OK.

[calinb]

Originally posted by gubbah
I had the 3ivx problem too when I installed Nero 6.0.0.19...I just unregistered NeVideo.ax in the "C:\Program Files\Common Files\Ahead\DSFilter" directory and re-installed 3ivx and everything worked OK.
I think this is a different problem. Yes, I had to re-install 3ivx too (or at least re-register the splitter), but the problem that's more significant is the latest Aac.dll doesn't work with 3ivxDSMediaSplitter.ax. NeVideo.ax doesn't have anything to do with the DirectShow filter graph that I'm talking about (rendering an mp4 file with AAC audio only.)

DSPguru: we can never say thanks too many times! The azid switch really helps--given the 3ivx splitter/new Aac.dll incompatibility. I'll just stick with the old Aac.dll.

[shitowax]

The problem is not Nero's channel order at all ... It's the fact that the latest Nero produces audio frames with a duration == 0. OpenQuicktime used in the 3ivx splitter doesn't appreciate that at all ;)
We're working on solving this problem ASAP.

[calinb]

Originally posted by shitowax
The problem is not Nero's channel order at all ...
Yes, I/we realize that. It just happens that Nero changed the channel order in the same release that broke the compatibility with 3ivx. So you have a choice of the old channel order (AAC order -- until DSPguru's latest build, it was not well-supported by BeSweet/Azid), or the new channel order and the 3ivx incompatibility :(

Whatever--we're happy to hear you are working on it and now we know the root of the problem!

[tiki4]

Originally posted by shitowax
The problem is not Nero's channel order at all ... It's the fact that the latest Nero produces audio frames with a duration == 0. OpenQuicktime used in the 3ivx splitter doesn't appreciate that at all ;)
We're working on solving this problem ASAP.

Just to throw in some speculation: Is this the new feature of Nero AAC of gapless playback, e.g. in Winamp or foobar2000? I thought about this before...

tiki4