Gigarec - here it is

[alexnoe]

http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/CDF/1104MB/Gigarec_M2F2.gif
=> Combining Mode 2 Form 2 with Gigarec. However, note that the write quality is poor (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Taiyo%20Yuden/CD-R_48x/Gigarec/Gigarec_14_gr.gif), and that this is just the prove that it can work. I do not recommend it, actually.

[avih]

did u implement m2f2 reading yourself? because if you did, then you could have used the one from xcd (simple CPP class).

get it from http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/xcd/xcd/core/
and here's an example of how you should use it: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/xcd/xcd/xcd2file/xcd2file.cpp?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup

[alexnoe]

For AVI-Mux GUI, i've coded X-CD reading on my own. I actually like doing thing on my own, because then I can say "I really understand how it works".

[kxy]

Originally posted by alexnoe
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/CDF/1104MB/Gigarec_M2F2.gif
=> Combining Mode 2 Form 2 with Gigarec. However, note that the write quality is poor (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Taiyo%20Yuden/CD-R_48x/Gigarec/Gigarec_14_gr.gif), and that this is just the prove that it can work. I do not recommend it, actually.


Can you explain what makes you say the write quality is poor. I couldn't understand the graph you posted.

I being using gigRec 1115MB for past 20 cds, and it seems fine for me(playing, seeking).

[alexnoe]

That graph shows how much the error correction of the reader must work. This (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Taiyo%20Yuden/CD-R_48x/Burn_PP_52x/Cx_gr.gif) is what such a graph should look like (note the difference in the scaling!)

Note that that "poor" graph is made on high-quality media.
That one (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Plasmon/CD-R_52x/Gigarec_14_Cx_gr.gif) is another gigarec disc, made on media which is only a bit worse (but far away from being "bad media")

[Ramirez]

And what about compatibility issues? Will it be readable everywhere? I mean like car stereos, stand alone CD\DVD players, PC CD/DVD players. I think not because GigaRec achieves its goals by burning smaller pits on CD surface, so unless other hardware manufacturers will start to support GigaRec, it'll remain as a pretty cool but nevertheless useless feature.

[alexnoe]

My LiteOn DVD-ROM can read these discs, while my LiteOn burner (52246S) can't. The Toshiba 1502 can read them at 4x, but only up to 100 mins or something like that. The Pioneer DVR-A03 doesn't recognise these discs.

Some CD players will read them, others will not. You can only try

EDIT The Liteon 52246S can read them, but only if CD Speed is set to 4x CLV!

[Ramirez]

This is exactly what I'm talking about, some of them will and some of them won't (the majority of exiting CD/DVD drives will not I think) anyway that second graph (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Plasmon/CD-R_52x/Gigarec_14_Cx_gr.gif) that you're referring to, have you used Mode2 form with this one also?

[kxy]

What are the set backs of "writting quality is poor"? If I understand correctly, gigaRec CDs are being read at much lower speed to compensate the amount of error corrections.

[alexnoe]

The scan has been done at low speeds....if the drive supported reading them faster, the scans would look even worse.

Such a bad scan means that you only have little error correction left for scratches, fingerprints, degrading crap discs etc

@Ramirez: On the level on which the scan is done, there is no difference between audio, data, or even mode 1 / mode 2.

[kxy]

Have you tried the version 1.01 firmware, I doubt it will make any difference in terms of writting quality.

Sidenote, one thing this drive annoys me is that the light is always green(won't turn off) when the CD is in the drive. Do you have the same problem? Is that a bug or feature?

[alexnoe]

I have used firmware 1.01. I didn't even try 1.00.

It's normal that the light is always on

[kxy]

I wouldn't use the gigaREC for data. But for sequential access (playing one or two video files) it should be okay, at least that is how I see it.

[kxy]

Thanks for your reports alexnoe. I see you have test the CD on Taiyo Yuden and Plasmon. Can you possibly try some crappy media(Imation or any CMC CDs) and see if it will do worse?

Another thing that puzzles me is that with 80 Min Cd it can write 115 Mins and a 99Min cd it only writes 123Min, where as a 99Min should be: 138 Min. Any thoughts on this one?

[alexnoe]

I don't have any CMC media...but I can try moser baer :D

A 99min disc should indeed be able to hold 138 min

[kxy]

You had put 138min of data in 99min successfully or it just that theoretically?


Here is my Q-check test, C1 is not as bad as yours, but you can see the huge C2 right around the 80min. I will do some more if you would want me to.

Taiyo Yuden Q-Check (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~yaok/TY.PNG)

[alexnoe]

It's just theoretically. I haven't tried so far.
The Moser Baer turned out better than the Plasmon, but worse than my Taiyo Yuden.

BTW, I did all my scans at 10x-24x CAV

[alexnoe]

Burn 1200MB to a 99min disc (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Gigarec_Burn_Nero/Burn_1200MB.gif)

However, the write quality is not exactly crap, it's beyond crap:
Cx (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Datatrack_99min/Gigarec/Gigarec_14_Cx_gr.gif)
C2 (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Datatrack_99min/Gigarec/Gigarec_14_C2_gr.gif)
Numbers (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Datatrack_99min/Gigarec/Gigarec_14_Cx_Nbr.gif)

[kxy]

Wow, that IS PRETTY BAD. :eek:

Did the cd play okay? Any written errors?

[alexnoe]

As you see, there are no Cu errors, meaning that the disc can be read without using the 3rd layer or error correction, at least in the plextor premium (none of my other drives can read beyond 100 mins, so I can't really try)

[kxy]

Mine is worse, c1, c2, CU off the charts!!!

Also got a median error, I don't know what that means.

This one is a 134min (around 1382mb).

99min (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~yaok/99min.PNG)

[alexnoe]

On a data CD, each sector begins with a sector header. If the sector header is not found (because the disc is too crappy), you get such an error.

Use better media, then

You can adjust the scale btw, as I've done...

[kxy]

Someone PMed me about the meaning of the Cx terms. Sorry I deleted the PM by accident, so I will reply here.

Here is some info...

Of course, Alexnoe has better knowledge in this area than I do, so hummmm...whatever he said will be more correct. :)


Error correction of the CD was done at 2 stages.

1st stage -- usually refer to as the C1 decoder also known as the block error rate. It usually goes by the number of frames which cannot be corrected and it is then reported as C1 error. Most random errors are corrected at this point in time, according to the plextor manual, a typical maximum BLER for quality recording is 220 errors per second.

2nd stage -- When the correction is not possible with this C1 decoder, it is then corrected with the C2 decoder. It usually refer to as the number of frames which are corrected it is reported as C2 error. It applies to bytes in a frame(24bytes/frame, 98 frames/block) and is an indication of drive's attempt to ensure the extended error correction to revcover data.

When the data cannot be corrected even with this C2 decoder, the CU (the Uncorrectable Error) is applied. Cu error usually result of damage to a disc and represent unrecoverable data. Interesting enough, the 99min cd(1382mb) with a median error plays just fine. I will do more test in this matter.

[alexnoe]

A BLER of 220 is not typical; it's just "allowed".

Mode 1 Data-CDs have another stage, called C3 (this term is not really defined, but it makes sense to call it this way :D )

The Plextor manual also claims that C2 errors are normal to occur on a CD-R. This is not true! If there are C2 errors, even if there is no visible damage in a disc, then it is poor recording quality.

[kxy]

Alexnoe,

Has any of your gigaRec got CU errors in it? It seems that whatever gigaRec I burn has more than one CU errors. I am using fireburner+mode2CD creator with Taiyo Yuden cdr. Could it be a faulty burner?

I burn a few normal(mode1) cd with variRec and those burns fine no c2 and no cu errors.

[alexnoe]

On Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs, I don't get any Cu errors on Gigarec discs (I use Taiyo Yudens which are sold by Plextor):
Numbers (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Taiyo%20Yuden/CD-R_48x/Gigarec/Gigarec_14_nbr.gif)
graph at 10x-24x CAV (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Taiyo%20Yuden/CD-R_48x/Gigarec/Gigarec_14_gr.gif)

[kxy]

All the 1382mb cd that I burnt won't play.

This one is at 1203mb (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~yaok/1203.PNG)

[zyzzle77]

kxy,

What error messages, if any, did you receive on trying to play the 1382 MB CDs? I assume these are 99 min. discs burned as mode 2 form 2 sectors, at Gigarec 1.4x setting. Were they also TY discs? Quite unfortunate that they aren't readable even by the Plextor drive itself... 1382 MB is almost DOUBLE capacity as a normal CDR.

Do any of the 1382 discs read all the way out to the end of the disc?

Regards.

[alexnoe]

Taiyo Yuden does not make 99min discs (if the ATIP says Taiyo Yuden, I'd contact the company and ensure that the ATIP is not faked)

[zyzzle77]

Right, of course TY doesn't make 99 min. discs, I forgot about that... So who makes highest quality (ie, fewest c1/c2 errors) 99 min. discs, that MIGHT work with gigarec?

[kxy]

Originally posted by zyzzle77
kxy,

What error messages, if any, did you receive on trying to play the 1382 MB CDs? I assume these are 99 min. discs burned as mode 2 form 2 sectors, at Gigarec 1.4x setting. Were they also TY discs? Quite unfortunate that they aren't readable even by the Plextor drive itself... 1382 MB is almost DOUBLE capacity as a normal CDR.

Do any of the 1382 discs read all the way out to the end of the disc?

Regards.

No error message, write verification is fine, just huge amount of Cx errors as expected. Small files also works fine(like the movie covers and some small text/log files that I put on the cd). The movie just won't start/play, tried all the movie players. I have tried 1382, 1385, 1370, 1360 and all of them has the same problem(doesn't matter if I do single track or multiple track). Now here is an interesting part, if I put a 1150mb movie and add some random files to fill up the space 1382, the movie will play fine.

I am making a 1300mb ogm(going at 4-5 fps) currently, will report the result in one or two days.

[zyzzle77]

Interesting, indeed! So it almost sounds like a driver/program limitation. Maybe an LBA problem?

Try burning a 1380 MB .VOB or MPEG-2 SVCD of this length. Maybe these will play?

[alexnoe]

There can't be any LBA problem. If there is an LBA problem, then it is at 100:00:00.

The index of most AVI files is at the end. If your disc is so crappy that the drive cannot seek to its end, then the index cannot be read.

Make a file which does not have the index at its end (AVI-Mux GUI, Open-DML, no legacy index, something like 5000 frames per standard index) and try again

[kxy]

I being testing ogm/xcd on the 99min cd. So far 1382, 1385, 1370, 1360, 1300MB all didn't work. Movie either refuse to play or stops somewhere towards the middle/end. If I try to extract the movie back using dat2file(I will get a permission denied error) due to that specific sector can't be read.

One thing I would like to point out is that different spindle of TY cd matters. For example, one spindle would produce some CU errors during burning while the other spindle will not. But if I just burn the bad spindle of cds normally, it also produces excellent results(no c2, cu errors).

[zyzzle77]

With these results, we are finally seeing that Quality Control even at Taiyo Yuden's pressing factory is quite variable. So, kxy are you suggesting that you might "get lucky" with a particularly good (ie, no CU errors) TY disc? Then burning > 1300 MB and playing without errors might be possible after all.

z

[kilg0r3]

Unfortunately, Gigarec, seems to be a non-feature for Mode2 junkies, like me.

The 1.02 Firmware is out @ plextor.be.

Is there a limitation in the XCD domain? How do media files work that have been recorded in normal data mode but with 1.4 compression?

Could this be an incompatibility between the Riff Filter and the Plextor Premium?

[alexnoe]

Is there a limitation in the XCD domain?That would be strange.
Create such an image, mount it into daemon tools and replay it from there.How do media files work that have been recorded in normal data mode but with 1.4 compression?No problem here.Could this be an incompatibility between the Riff Filter and the Plextor Premium?Unlikely
I'm sure that you experience disc-too-crappy-errors

[kxy]

Originally posted by zyzzle77
With these results, we are finally seeing that Quality Control even at Taiyo Yuden's pressing factory is quite variable. So, kxy are you suggesting that you might "get lucky" with a particularly good (ie, no CU errors) TY disc? Then burning > 1300 MB and playing without errors might be possible after all.

z


You simply read my paragraphs wrong. My first paragraph points out the result of 99min gigaRec with no-name brand cdr. Second paragraph points out that some TY batch will have more cu error as compare to the other batch. Bottom line, TY does not make 99min cd.

[kilg0r3]

any news?

I'd really be interested if the gigarec function were made functioning together with xcd. Anyone tried gabest's xcd reader for a change?

So far, I haven't found a list with cd-rom drives and burners that are capable of reading 1.4x-recorded discs. Does anyone else?

[kxy]

I haven't tried gabest xcd, dext's filter is work fine for me. I use fireburner to burn the cue and image files. You can give that a try.

For the playablity on a normal cd or dvd drive, I think 99min will be the max, because recording at 1.4x is out of the SPEC. I don't think any cd/dvd rom out there will read 1.4x GigaRec besides the plextors.

[alexnoe]

Gigarec 1.2x:

Reading in LiteOn DVD-ROM:
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Gigarec_read/Liteon-165_GR12.gif

Cx scan (Taiyo Yuden):
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/Taiyo%20Yuden/CD-R_48x/Gigarec/Gigarec_12_gr.gif

[kilg0r3]

hm, looks prety much o.k. but is no actual improvement over burning data on a 99min medium with a normal burner.

[alexnoe]

The difference is that you can use quality 80min media, instead of gambling with more or less crappy 99min media.

[kxy]

It really depends on the batch of your TY cdr. This is a brand new batch and look how good it turns out compare to my previous ones, not as good quality as the 1.2x ones.

1.4x-1116MB (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~yaok/goodty.JPG)

[alexnoe]

Plextor has updated the firmware and does now allow Gigarec at 8x.

I tried it with Taiyo Yuden 48x media, 1.2x setting and 860 MB (!!), and the avg error rate is 1.9.

[kxy]

Are you saying gigaRec at 8x produces more errors than 4x? If that is true, I then wish they have an opinion for 2x or even 1x.

[alexnoe]

Oooops, I forgot to give numbers for 4x....with firmware 1.02, it was 2.5, so firmware 1.03 produces better discs at 8x than 1.02 at 4x.

I didn't try 1.03 at 4x so far. Neither do I understand why you want 2x or 1x. Why do you believe that this would improve the write quality?

[kxy]

I can confirm that write quality is much better with firmware 1.03.

Neither do I understand why you want 2x or 1x. Why do you believe that this would improve the write quality?

I don't. I misunderstood you. Anyways, it will be interesting to try.