DC10+ using Virtualdub for capture?

[neo_sapien]

I've heard that you can use Virtualdub to capture video from a Pinnacle Studio DC10 Plus. Is this true? In my Virtualdub I get error 418 capture device not detected. I've been searching forever, and haven't found a definitive answer yet. I can capture using Virtual VCR, Dr. DivX and Pinnacle Studio 8, but Virtual VCR and Dr. DivX give too many dropped frames, and Studio 8 makes the resulting file be an odd framerate like 29.968 or 29.971, and so converting to MPEG-2 at 29.97 or 23.976 gives you sync problems.

Also, can someone point me in the direction of the PCI patch that's supposed to improve the dropped frames situation? I don't get any dropped frames in Studio 8, but it would be nice to do something about the dropped frames in Virtual VCR and Dr. DivX.

[Fasola_Jan]

Hi :)

VirtualDub is VFW (Video For Windows) capture program ONLY.
It will NOT work with WDM drivers (Windows Driver Model)

It is possible that VirtualDub will work with
VFW to WDM wrapper.

My DC10Plus is working perfectly with VirtualDub.

In Windows 98 :)



Fasola.

[neo_sapien]

I've tried the wrapper, according to these (http://www.virtualdub.org/docs_vfwwdm) instructions, but I still get Error 418: Capture device was not detected.

[vhelp]

@ neo_sapien,

your system has probably gone kaka or something. You probably done
many re-installs of drivers most likely.

If you wanna get a good/proper installed (or should I say, "successfully working"
DC10+) under vdub (via VFW)

I think you will have to either forget the WDM (if you are serious)
or try the wrapper. But, be aware that the wrapper has bugs and wont
be fixed, and I remember it being limited to 320x240 I think, though
for some, ..could go higher. Just depends on your system and your
level of skills.

Based on memory, and, I'm not to be held responsible for any issues
you might suffer.. w/ that in mind, proceed beow :D

For a clean start, you have to uninstall everything. Your:
* any WDM drivers ( are you sure you want to go VFW route ? )
* remove any (if any) VFW references (to do this, D/L Hauppauge's
... HCWCLEAR.EXE app) and go down the list, and kill every item, and
... just ignore the error message (if you get any near the last few)
* (set display to Standard VGA) and THEN remove graphics card driver

Now, re-install:
* Graphics card driver
* DC10+ card drivers (excluding the WDM support) (use CUSTOM and if
... if shows, deselect the WDM, else fish around for any reference to
... if in installing software list boxes) sorry, i'm not familiar w/
... WDM driver installs, though I have a paritial (I think) on one of
... my pc's.
* VFW (but NOT the WDM on your graphics card drivers disk, else you'll
... be right back where you started from and end up blaming me.
... If there is a VFW in the listbox of your install app, select it only.
... IF NOT VFW w/ your CD (as industry is WDM and forward these days)
... then you have to D/L a separate one VFW only driver and install it
... that way. Either way, you may have problems if your OS is greater
... then W98 SE. Again, Hauppauge seems to be the very last few that
... have any more VFW drivers these days. Use Google.com for your
... searching of this driver.

If you are using windows 98 or SE, (not me) you should have no problems
locating and installing VFW. AND, the DC10+ will work happily in your
given pc. Mine workds plenty fine in my ECS board and along side my
new Osprey-210 board too. Both, of which are VFW and I have used either
AVI_IO or VDUB for the DC10+ w/ NO issues, and IMO, just as good as
Studio or better, but no promises here. You'll have to trial and
error this one on your own.

Remember, I'm not a Doctor, and I'm no mind-reader, and we all have
different boards and setups and whatnots.. so don't expect a 100%
success rate in your endeavor.. but you never know.. might work for
you too. Can't hurt but to try (at your own risk)

The above is pretty much the order of the processes. Follow it, and
you will be fine. Else..

Good luck :)
-vhelp

[neo_sapien]

I'm using WinXP.
There's only 1 driver for the DC10+ available, it's here (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/docsupport1.asp?division_id=1&langue_id=1&product_id=2&product_name=Studio%20DC10plus&page_id=432) . You don't get the option of installing WDM or VFW.

[aklendathu]

Originally posted by neo_sapien
I'm using WinXP.
There's only 1 driver for the DC10+ available, it's here (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/docsupport1.asp?division_id=1&langue_id=1&product_id=2&product_name=Studio%20DC10plus&page_id=432) . You don't get the option of installing WDM or VFW.

I also have a DC10+ but never tried it with VDUB in XP (in ME it used
to crash right after I started to capture):mad:. I normally use the Video In of my NVIDIA graphics card. It also uses an WDM driver BUT the trick is to 'tickle' the driver by starting any other program that
can use the WDM driver (WinProducer, VirtualVCR) and then starting
VDUB in capture mode. It works for me, anyway. Maybe you can try the
same trick with the DC10+ by starting a dummy capture with Studio
before launching VDUB ... :sly:

[neo_sapien]

Thanks for the idea :)
but it didn't work :\

[vhelp]

@ neo_sapien,

I don't quite understand why you wanna use VFW instead, if your OS
is 2000 or XP ??

These OS's were designed w/ WDM and correct me if I'm wrong, but ain't
WDM "suppose" to be better than VFW ?? ?? ??

I can't quite put my finger on the list of PROS for WDM, but I'm still
not sure why you are even bothering w/ VFW ( as I've heard a few here
say it's dead, and sucks and the likes, rada, rada rada.. though, I
do disagree a little)

Then again, I'm un W98 land. I'm not too crazy about the NTFS ability
to write larger then 4gig chucks and what-nots, but I can't see how
that much better XP is over w98 in terms of resoures and memory and
whatever else. I mean, I can load up window 98 in under 15 seconds
if I have problems, and that counting when windows goes through the
DOS scandisk and then finally boots into windows. For me, w98 is all
I need for what I need - capturing hehe.. and that's why I use VFW
in my setup, though I got nothing against WDM at all. Anyways.. back
to your topic..

@ neo_sapien,
no matter.. but, did you try the routine setup I laid out in my previous
postings for VFW installation ??

But serious though, if you are in W2K or XP, aren't you better off
fixing the issues w/ WDM. ..suppose to be more effeciant under these
OS's !!

-vhelp

[aklendathu]

Well, the thing is that VDUB is a much better tool for capturing video than e.g. Pinnacle Studio 8 and DC10+.
Now, what I don't understand is why VDUB lacks WDM support ...

I bought a (cheap) Nvidia card with VideoIn when my Studio DC10+ broke
down. I've since got a replacement board but I still prefer to capture from the Nvidia - much better quality IMHO, very likely because I can use the PICVideo MJPEG codec, which is not possible with the DC10+ board.

[Justus]

Pinnacle Studio 7/Dc10+ with PicVideo MJPEG codec works just fine
in my PC(Win XP). I capture with the highest 768*576 Studio 7
custom resolution, PicVideo codec quality setting at 20.
No frames dropped if the VHS tape is in good condition
and the AVI I get is great quality, much better than with
Pinnacle's own codec.

[aklendathu]

Well, I have upgraded to Studio 8 (from 1.x) - although when I moved
to WinXP I did a fresh install of Studio 8. I don't remember seeing
the PicVideo Codec accessible from the capture settings menu - I'll
look again...

I have been able to capture VHS through my Camcorder using the DV capture mode through an IEEE1394 board but for longer captures (30 min.) the audio and the video get out of sync.

[Justus]

Aklendathu, If I remember correctly, you can not see the
PicVideo Codec in Studio 7/8 capture settings menu,
you just go to: my computer and find the PicVideo codec
under your video compression codecs, go to additional
settings and - ENABLE the codec.
and it "takes over" from Pinnacle's own codec.
Good Luck!

[Guest]

It does not take over for capture, only for subsequent encoding/decoding in editing/transcoding applications!

[Justus]

I have been capturing my VHS tapes with that set-up for several
months now! Works for me brilliantly.

[Owen]

All captured video with DC10 goes through the hardware compressor before going over the PCI bus to the capture application.
There is NO WAY ARROUND THIS.
But the quality of the Analoge to Digital converters etc on the DC10 are much better that a BT8x8 TV card or similare hardware.
Also the hardware compression is much better than the PicVideo codec.
At bitrates above 2.5meg per second, quality is outstanding.
The TV output is also outstanding and delivers true interlaced output unlike Geforce or Radeon cards.

For trouble free operation with the DC10 I recomend using Win 98 with vfw drivers.
Thats what Pinnacle recomend and its what the card was designed for and tested with.
Vdub works fine for capture under vfw.
I did try using a DC10 on XP some time back but if was not fully funtional on that OS.It may have been fixed by now.

If you want a good software Mjpeg codec try Morgan Mjpeg Version 3.xx (2.xx is crap).
This codec is a way better that PicVideo. But it reqires a P4 or Athlon XP to run in highest quality mode (Floating Point).
The Morgan codec can also decode files created by DC10 hardware codec.

Regards,

Owen

[aklendathu]

At the moment, I still cannot see the MJPEG PicVideo codec from the capture settings menu in Studio 8 - I'll try the Enable Codec thing but I believe it's already enabled.

I have upgraded (or rather done a fresh install) of XP over ME because
when I got my new PC (ATHLON XP 1800 CPU) it would just hang for no apparent reason. I'm not sure how well Win98/ME support the newer MB chipsets - plus I started having horrible problems with IRQ conflicts in ME. It's all gone in XP now although I got the impression that the system actually got worse after installing SP 1.

I don't have a very good impression of the DC10 in terms of quality -
I used to capture at 3000 kbps and up - I found the picture to lose sharpness in comparison with the original Video 8 or VHS.

I've downloaded the Morgan Codec and will give it a try.

I'll keep my eyes on this thread - I think some good ideas may come in.

[aklendathu]

The Morgan Codec has replaced the PICVideo Codec (it seems, both use the same FOURCC and even though I activated the alternate FOURCC in the Morgan Codec, the PICVideo still does not show up as such). Any way around this, and have both available ? I paid for the PICVideo codec ...

[Guest]

You're just not listening.

Here it is again for you -- the third time!!!

You cannot use a software codec to capture with the DC10+.

If your DC10+ captures were not sharp, you must have captured only one field. The DC10+ quality is superb.

[Owen]

Some slow learners around here. :D
If you do manage to use a software codec to capture you are converting the video to mjpeg in hardware then uncomressing it and recopressing in software before writing to disk.
This double comression is BAD. DONT DO IT.
From memmory you need to select "No Recomression" or somthing like that,in the comression selection dialog.
Anyone who has a problem with the quality of a DC10 is doing something VERY wrong.

Hey Donald, I like your cat, and your filters. Us cat people should stick together.:D

Regards,

Owen

[vhelp]

Yes, I second what neuron2 just stated, that the DC10+ has
superb quality, especiall if your source is Satellite.

@ aklendathu,
while inside Studio, the capture settings is for the DC10+'s hardware.
But, maybe you're confused by other's methods here ??
I mean.. maybe others have found that they can still capture under
Studio, and hence, you (as they) are seeing other Capture codecs. And
as such, you are confusing yourself into thinking that you can use
another codec. This is usually and easily mistaken. As, the DC10+
is a hardware (course you know that) but all the curcuitry that leads
up to and into the pci is maily from your mjpeg's hardware chip.
The driver for the DC10+ is geared in such a way, that you can't bypass
it, simply by selecting another codec. This is why you don't see it
listing other codecs when you are inside the DC10+'s capture settings.
The DC10+ driver is telling the VFW or whatever, that it cannot go
through this wall. It's pointless. I've ben there and tried myself,
in the last 3+ years I've had my DC10+ and still have it to this day
in my 2nd pc (which is my main capture pc) though I mainly use my
ADVC.

Look at it this way..

Video source
--> DC10+ card --> harddrive (final .AVI)

..or for any other card that is not "hardware bound" ..

Video source
--> ATI-TV Wonder
--> ATI Driver
--> non compress
--> Huffy
--> divX
--> YUV 411 Raw
--> DVSoft (TM) (DV codec)
--> PICVideo MJPEG Codec
--> MS DV codec
--> Harddrive (final .AVI)

I hope that above analigy helps.

-vhelp

[aklendathu]

Originally posted by neuron2
You're just not listening.

Here it is again for you -- the third time!!!

You cannot use a software codec to capture with the DC10+.

If your DC10+ captures were not sharp, you must have captured only one field. The DC10+ quality is superb.

My dear fellow,

I was capturing with DC10+ long before I got the PICVideo codec.
Indeed, the only reason I got it was because my board conked out and
I had to find an interim solution while deciding whether or not
to repair it. I was capturing at 720x576 up to 6000 kbps and the
resulting MPEG movies, either DVD or VCD format were rather crappy.

It's possible I was doing something wrong, but I haven't been able
to figure out what.

[aklendathu]

Originally posted by Owen
Some slow learners around here. :D
If you do manage to use a software codec to capture you are converting the video to mjpeg in hardware then uncomressing it and recopressing in software before writing to disk.
This double comression is BAD. DONT DO IT.
From memmory you need to select "No Recomression" or somthing like that,in the comression selection dialog.
Anyone who has a problem with the quality of a DC10 is doing something VERY wrong.

Hey Donald, I like your cat, and your filters. Us cat people should stick together.:D

Regards,

Owen

I think you've got the wrong impression from my previous posts - I do not *WANT* to capture video from the DC10+ using a software codec.
Very shortly after installing the board on my PC I realized that was not possible. I was intrigued however by a post on this thread that seemed to indicate it was possible. My captures using the PICVideo software codec are done from my NVIDIA graphics card using VirtualDUB.

When I mentioned my poor impression of the video quality (MPEG-1/2) obtained from the DC10+, perhaps I didn't express my idea correctly. To me, the quality of the AVI is relatively irrelevant - what I want is to produce a good-quality DVD out of my videos. Of course, a side-effect of the hardware codec thing is that you are dependent on the quality of the Pinnacle MPEG encoders. With the DC10+ capture settings I used, I concluded that the DVD video quality I get from the NVIDIA PicVideo VDUB TMPEGenc pipeline is better than from the DC10+ Studio 8 one.

If you folks are willing to share your preferred capture DC10+ capture settings (bitrate, resolution, etc.) I'm willing to give it another try and perhaps revise my opinion.

Cheers,

Pedro.

[aklendathu]

A further note on this thread: While it is true that DC10+ captures are hardware MMJPEG encoded, the fact is that the resulting AVI can be opened in VirtualDUB using the PicVIDEO MMJPEG codec (and possibly others as well). Thus, I can do a DC10+ capture and then do a 2-pass VBR MPEG-2 encoding with TMPGenc.

P.S. to Owen and neuron2 (should you bother to read this message): I believe that my earlier problems with DC10+ captures were due to the fact that I was using Studio 1.x which didn't have MPEG encoding support - so, I had to transcode the video using another codec (Indeo)before creating the MPEG-2 stream. Also, I didn't have the PicVIDEO MMJPEC codec then. I have done some captures with DC10+ at 768x576 resolution and 3000kBps (a little better than quality 19 on the PicVIDEO) and the resulting MPEG-2 is now at least as good as what I
get from the NVIDIA/VirtualDUB capture.

[Owen]

aklendathu,
There is no need to use Picvideo or any other codec to transcode your DC10 files. The DC10 will decode them for you in Virtual Dub or any other editing application so you can re encode to Mpeg2 or what ever you want.
You should uninstall all Mjpeg software decoders to make sure that the DC10 will do the decoding for best results.
You may even need to reinstall the DC10 drivers.
Done like this, the results should be much better than the NVIDIA capture method.
Remember you should have NO software Mjpeg decoders installed on the machine with the DC10.

Regards,

Owen

[Guest]

@Owen

I beg to differ. SW codecs are now much faster than the DC10+ because the DC10+ will have to transfer data both ways over the PCI bus. Also, the DC10+ decoder has an irritating bug of shifting occasional frames down by a few pixels. SW codecs SHOULD be used after capture!

[aklendathu]

Also, is the quality gain, if any, really worth the trouble of messing around with the drivers ?
Yesterday, I tried to follow Owen's suggestion, de-activated the PicVIDEO Codec (less drastic than uninstall) and rebooted the PC. VirtualDUB then used its own MMJPEG routines to access the captured video. The DC10+ codec is there (DCxx*.sys) but it's not being recognized - I guess I need to reinstall the DC10+ Hardware drivers. Is it really worth the trouble, though ?
Actually, I didn't realize it then, but when I re-installed my DC10+ board I 'lost' the PicVIDEO codec. Probably what happened was that the DC10+ codec took over ...

[Guest]

@aklendathu

Did you read what I just posted or did you dismiss me as clueless?

[Owen]

@Donald,
I admit it's a long time since I used a DC10 or DC30. So I'm not up to speed.
I have not tested the decode quality of the PicVideo codec to decode DC10 files, it may be ok. But I can say that the encoding is CRAP. Even at a setting of 19.
The Morgan Mjpeg codec Version 3.x is MUCH better than PicVideo for encoding.
Again I have not tested it’s decode quality on its own.
Can you comment on PicVideos decode only quality compared to Morgan 3 or DC10 hardware?
I did not consider speed to be much of an issue for trans-coding. Is the DC10 really that slow?
As I said, it’s years since I used a DC10. I’m just curious. As I know others with DC10-DC30 cards and would like to keep them up to date.

Regards,

Owen

[Guest]

I'm not pushing any particular codec. I am saying that it is better to use a software codec after capture for two reasons: 1) it is much faster on modern systems, and 2) the DC10+ decoder shifts frames down sporadically. For me, the latter is a killer for the DC10+, and I find the first compelling as well.

I seldom encode with PicVideo, so I can't comment on your assertion about its encode quality. It could be true, I suppose, but it doesn't alter my basic point.

[aklendathu]

Originally posted by neuron2
@aklendathu

Did you read what I just posted or did you dismiss me as clueless?

No, I didn't. I just happened to do what I described in my post BEFORE I read yours. No need to feel insulted, OK ?

[aklendathu]

Originally posted by Owen
[/B]
...
I have not tested the decode quality of the PicVideo codec to decode DC10 files, it may be ok. But I can say that the encoding is CRAP. Even at a setting of 19.
The Morgan Mjpeg codec Version 3.x is MUCH better than PicVideo for encoding.
...
Owen [/B]

Owen,

Why do you say PicVIDEO codec encoding is crap ? Is there any kind of test I can do to check this ? Having paid money for registering said codec, I'm a bit concerned by your post...

[Ookami]

@aklendathu

I would recommend you to test it by yourself, as the codecs change their quality from release to release. Also, IIRC Picvideo often didn't changed the version numbers but changed the quality of the MJPEG codec.

There are so many MJPEG codecs and they are changing quite often so be prepared that any x is better than y, will be sooner or later a outdated statement.

I've tested the different codec a few times and would not recommend if you don't have the motivation to fiddle with the registry, fight with playback filters from x take over the MJPEG playback from codec y etc. (of course the picture is screwed and you don't know it until you try certain things out etc.).

BTW, someone could jump into this whole discussion and say that MJPEG is inferiour to DV, then another on would say that DV is ineferiour to Huffyuv, then... Use what best fits you...

Cheers,

Mijo.

[Owen]

It’s over a year since I used PicVideo. The version that was available at the time was in no way comparable with DC10 hardware compression even at a setting of 19.
Compression artifacts were very noticeable. (I am not aware of a newer versions)
Morgan 3.x in Floating Point mode (Best Quality) is the only software mjpeg codec that I have seen compete on equal terms with DC10 hardware compression.

The only advantage of the PicVideo codec was that it ran happily on a PII 400.
The Morgan 3.x codec needs a fast CPU but quality is very close to HUFFYUV lossless codec.

I am sorry if I have upset people here but can anyone confirm that PicVideo has improved in quality in the last year or so. Can it now rival DC10 hardware or HUFFYUV ?
If so, I stand corrected.

All my tests were conducted with only one codec installed at a time and were for encode and decode.
I have never evaluated encoding and decoding quality separately.
All tests were conducted at data rates above 2.5Meg per second on PAL 768-576 source.

Aklendathu,
PicVideo may work perfectly for decode only. I think the problems were all in the encoding. So as long as you don’t encode with it you should be fine.

Regards,

Owen

[aklendathu]

Originally posted by Owen

...
Aklendathu,
PicVideo may work perfectly for decode only. I think the problems were all in the encoding. So as long as you don’t encode with it you should be fine.

Regards,

Owen

Owen,

Thanks for your post.
I have to say that, although I haven't tested the Morgan MMJPEG codecs, the PicVideo codecs I used seem to do a fairly decent job out of my Star Trek VHS collection. After you so emphatically defended the DC10plus board on your earlier posts on this thread I have gone back to capture using the DC10plus - which has conked out on me (again! :angry:) last night. I'm waiting for Pinnacle Support to let me know whether my replacement board (3 months in my possession) is covered by some sort of warranty so, in the meantime it's back to VirtualDUB ... :(

Regards,

Pedro.

[Ookami]

@Owen

Hello Owen. First I think you're comparing apples and oranjes if you're comparing the DC10 MJPEG captures and a MJPEG software captures of another card... Or how do you did your comparison of DC10 MJPEG and the other software codecs? Or did you even reencode your DC10 captures?

And, IMO, any talk about a lossy codec rivaling a lossless is, erm, strange.

Not to mention that with the DC10 you also compared the cards ADC, so it would be more fair to test different codecs with the same capture card that doesn't use hardware compression.

BTW, there are a few more MJPEG codecs than the two mentioned, so ;) .

And last but not least, I don't think that you'll ever upset anyone with such a nice style of writing :) .

So my conclusion.

MJPEG cannot be comparable to Huffyuv, the DC10 is a capture card with a different ADC so it cannot be compared to a capture captured with a different card and then call the tested software MJPEG inferiour, because it could be because of the inferiour ADC of the second card etc.

I've tested most, if not all, of the MJPEG codecs, and must say that each of them has their pros and cons. As I've said, if you want "best" quality you'll not use MJPEG anyway. I think I've made a little pro and con in an old thread, but it's probably obsolete as I've said earlier.

Hope I've wrote my thoughts in a clear manner.

Cheers,

Mijo.

[Owen]

Hi Ookami,
I have been capturing video to computers for over six years, with all kinds of hardware.
I was always happy with the quality of the Miro DC10 and DC30 cards.
I then tried using BT8x8 based TV cards with all available software codecs.
It was immediately obvious that the ADC on the BT8x8 cards was nowhere near as good as the DC10. Knowing the limitations of the BT8x8 cards, I did comparisons between HUFFYUV and PicVideo compressed video and was never happy with PicVideo.
When I upgraded to a P4 2Gig system I tried out the Morgan 3.x codec and was very surprised to find how much better Morgan 3 was over PicVideo.
At bitrates of about 3Meg per second, on high quality PAL source, the Morgan codec produced results that were hard to distinguish from HUFFYUV .
PicVideo could never do that on the same hardware. It always looked very compressed.
Since then, I have moved to a P4 3Gig system and MSI TV@nywhere TV card with the new Conexant chip. And have finally found a card with an ADC to rival the DC10 .
I no longer use Mjpeg codecs as I now use a Panasonic MX8 DV camera with passthrough for highest quality analogue capture.
Or the MSI TV card capturing direct to Xvid codec (1 pass, fixed Quant 2), which gives very good quality at only 1.4Meg per second for capture of TV and satellite programs.
All this makes the old DC10 and Mjpeg completely obsolete for me.:D

I’m just trying to share my experience. Not sell the Morgan codec or be a smart ase. :D



Regards,

Owen

[Ookami]

Originally posted by Owen
I’m just trying to share my experience. Not sell the Morgan codec or be a smart ase. :D

Hello Owen, I doubt that anyone would call you an smart ass. You have wrote your thoughts and experiences in a nice manner, if someone disagrees, fine, but no one should call you like you've wrote.

I agree more with you than you probably think, I just want to point out that every MJPEG codec has it's pros and cons and that you should avoid them if possible, anyway. Especially if you filter the material it's quite a difference if the filter has to mess with compressed material or not...

When you first wrote how Morgan was better than Picvideo I did a quick test and found out that my Athlon TB 800 wasn't even near enough to use this codec on highest quality settings. The picture seemed better to me, IIRC, but not such an revolutionary you've wrote, but I don't remember 100%, so I could be wrong anyway. Not to mention my bad sight.

I doubt that you can use the new Morgan codec, at HQ settings, with anything less than an 1.5 GHz CPU.

I don't have anything new to say, so I'll stop here. Thanks for your nice and long explanations, please, continue with them. I enjoy reading them and nitpicking every once in a while ;) .

So, now you use DV for captures? What's your experience with old tapes when using your camera passthrough?

Cheers,

Mijo.

[aklendathu]

Originally posted by Owen

...
Since then, I have moved to a P4 3Gig system and MSI TV@nywhere TV card with the new Conexant chip. And have finally found a card with an ADC to rival the DC10.
...


Owen,

That was a most interesting and useful post you made. I am curious about your MSI card. I read in the specs that it has S-VHS and RCA video-in leads. Does it mean that it can capture analog video from a VCR ?
As you may remember from a previous post I made, I am mainly interested in using an analog capture card to convert some old VHS tapes to DVD - my Video8 collection I can capture as Digital Video through a Digital8 camcorder. However, using the passthrough feature on this camera to capture analog video as DV leads to loss of A/V sync after 20 minutes or so. :(
Now that my DC10 is on the fritz again I am looking for cheaper alternatives ... :rolleyes:

Cheers,

Pedro.

[Owen]

Pedro,
Dose your Nvidia card have a BT8x8 chip or Philips chip on it for capture?
I have no experience with the Philips chip.
The BT8x8 chip can work very well under they right conditions. Using the BTwincap freeware drivers.
Anyway, if your only capturing VHS. Almost anything should work ok.
If you have the BT8x8 chip, be very careful about Contrast settings in capture.
The old BT has a very limited luminance dynamic range, and is easy to clip or overload white levels.
You need to set contrast lower than you would think to capture full range without clipping.

As for the TV@nywhere, it has composite and Svideo inputs and is better than the old BT cards with a wider dynamic range and more accurate 10bit colour.
This card works very well for me, but it’s a bit of an overkill for VHS capture.
I have captured VHS and Super VHS to Xvid and the capture looks just as good or bad :D , as the original. After some tweaking in Virtual Dub the copy actually looks better than the original.
What codec you use will depend on you system speed.

Regards,

Owen

[aklendathu]

Owen,

I don't know for sure, although I doubt it's a BT8x8 since I've tried some programs which are specific for this chip and they didn't work. At the moment, it's not practical to open up the computer to look at the board - could it just be an Nvidia chip ? Anyway, I've ordered an MSI capture card similar to yours and I am looking forward to testing it.

What sort of tweaking did you use in your VirtualDUB captures ? So far I've only used the standard deinterlacing (blend). I think that my copies are about as good (?) as the original, but it may be possible to improve on that. Each shot at re-encoding takes about 6 hours on my system (1xAthlon 1.5GHz, 512 DDR) so I'm not very keen on making wild experiments. Still, any good advice will be appreciated and very likely followed.

Cheers,

Pedro.

P.S. This exchange of ideas is now somewhat outside the scope of this thread. Do you mind if I contact you by PM in the future ?

[Owen]

Pedro,
I have PM'ed you.

Owen

[\AX]

Originally posted by Owen
Pedro,
As for the TV@nywhere, it has composite and Svideo inputs and is better than the old BT cards with a wider dynamic range and more accurate 10bit colour.
....
Owen


Actually no it does not use 10bit color from everything i have read.
I have had this card since it has been out(got it like 2weeks after
offical release) and had little time to play with it myself as of
lately.

I have since about 2 weeks ago lent it out to a old roomate that
captures things. He use's dscaler beta and he's EXTREMELY happy
with the msi card vs his old pinnacle pc tv pro 8bit.

However i have read in several sources (avs forum, email from the
btwincap creator, msi's own forum) that it does NOT use 10bits. It
use's 8bits but with the newer technology it looks ALOT...and i mean
ALOT better.

I havent read this for several months...maybe it has been discovered
that it does actually use the 2 extra bits and the 2 extra bits are
no just there for other hardware using the same chip...dunno but in
~January the verdict was it was only using 8bits. The creator of the
btwincap said in responded email that Windows is not even capable
of displaying such 10bit images. Although some hardware based devices
could use all of them...however on this card that is not a possible.

It is very possible that the new DCxx's are better...however i doubt
you will ever find a need for such a device over the MSI card in the
current standards. Maybe once everybody starts capturing in HD..yeh
maybe and all signs point to yes infact..but currently no.

MSI is the best card so far. The latest version i here has some bugs
(what's new right?) and offers no improvement over captures. Use's
a different chip however if you capturing your audio from a outside
source other than the card then pass it up. The new card does support
coaxial but i doubt that interest's too many people.

Nobody really gives the MSI the prop's it deserve's. Some people due
but they are only the people that have the card...everybody else seems
like "hmm?". If you dont got this card pick it up. You will notice
captures that look better than your source...yes this is true with
this card and BEFORE your post processing.

However it's ...uh...requirements are not forgiving. Dont look to use
this card at its max potential in a system slower/weaker than a normal
1.7ghz system with like 512 ram(256 if its the only process).

MSI's card is the perfect drug for somebody addicted to just finding
good capture routines. In the end, if your system is fast enough,
in the end you will in NO WAY be disappointed.

I have little experience in capturing...but all the rage about the
DC10 is compelling me to get one and try it out...however MSI's card
is just to good to be overlooked. It is better. Yes i make this
statement because from some of the pic's of cap's i have seen from
the DC10 in know way present it is better or even equal.

You can have all the experience in the world with digital video but
some device's (tv@nywhere) just make all that expeirence almost
worthless because it does a wonderful job by itself. Guru hardware
i would call the MSI tv@anywhere.

there is other cards with new chips...but with this msi and dscaler
you will love it...LOVE IT!!! (just have a newer faster system)

[aklendathu]

\AX,

What program does your friend use to capture video ? I just got an MSI card and can only capture in MPEG. VirtualDub gives me a capture error although I can see the video in the preview.

Pedro.

[Owen]

\AX
The color on the MSI my not be 10bit but it shore looks like it.
Much better than the old BT8x8.
Don’t even think about buying a DC10. It is obsolete.
If you don’t have a new, fast PC it is still a good thing. But if you can find a used DC30+, (The DC30+ is a discontinued semi pro product.Video identical to DC10 but with integrated sound.) That would be a much better choice, as it has it’s own sound chip on board and always gives perfect sound sync. Even on old slow PC’s.
The DC30+ was an expensive card when new. But they can now be found very cheap used. It’s still one of the best analogue capture cards around.
A friend of mine has a DC30+ he may want to sell if anyone is interested.



Regards,

Owen

[Ookami]

>The color on the MSI my not be 10bit but it shore looks like it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=182360


"Hi...
I guess i won't be able to support that CX881 based card because Conexant didn´t release the required datasheet... Perhaps i could ask them to see if they send me a copy of it... But i actually doubt they would care. In fact, the driver you are using WAS develeoped by Conexant itself... The CX881 has a 10bit ADC converter, but won't let you capture in 10bit mode, as no video display card is able to display such 10bit images... In fact, the only way to fully exploit those bits is to connect an external MEPG2 hardware encoder chip to the CX881. So, using any WDM / VFW capture program/codec you will only get 8bit (as the older bt8x8). The CX881 will deliver an improved image (compared to the older Bt8x8) because the digital video processing stages of the CX881 were improved...
And because your TV card uses a silicon tuner (it's a tuner in a chip).. So less noise sources are present in the video singal path. I assume that if conexant releases the CX881 datasheets, support for
your card could be added....

Regards,
Eduardo"


I guess this says it all.

Cheers,

Mijo.

[\AX]

my friend use's dscaler and he says its working fine...i have
yet to stop by to see what he calls "fine" though.

btw Ookami did you find that email from Edurado on avs or did you
quote it from the older thread here named something like "MSI TV@nywhere sux...cant do nothing right" ???


btw i could never get vdub or any vfw app to capture above 320x240
if you touch the preview pin it dont work i guess...something goes
wrong when you preview the video that is all i can say. (thanks to
Swan for pointing that out with amcap)

[Ookami]

>btw Ookami did you find that email from Edurado on avs or did you
quote it from the older thread here named something like "MSI TV@nywhere sux...cant do nothing right" ???

Erm, it should be a quote from the above link. I was more interested in the 10bit quote than anything.

I've used this one from an old posting of mine on VideoXone, as the I'm almost never on the AVS forum anyway.

Back then the drivers did suck, the situation is much better now, when I read all the praises here :) .

Cheers,

Mijo.