DVD2One: picture quality sucks

[ody96]

I was very proud with my DVD2One copy of Eagles DTS version and decided to bring it to my friend house, which at the same time he hosted a BBQ party. When I came, the host and guests were at the backyard and so I walked to his living room and turn the DVD on by myself. When I saw the picture on his 42" Panasonic Plasma TV (he connects his DVD with Component/RGB inputs)... gulp... it's like watching a VCD, not even SVCD!!

Grr... I took out the DVD and told my friend "emmm... sorry, I forgot to bring it"

PS:
1. The original DVD is 7GB, I used full copy. On my 32" direct view TV is "okay" though.
2. It works on his Panasonic DVD player/copier, while my DVDXCopy backup doesn't.

[MackemX]

exactly why my sig says what it says

"In the end it's a matter of individual perception and the level of quality delivered by the playback system"

that's why you get such a difference of opinion :D

high definition pics from Plasma, TFT's etc show in greater detail how inferior DVD2One is to CCE/IC etc and even more so on the larger DVD's :)

but not everyone can see this due to their own setups so therefore their opinion is limited and then add to that a user's definition of what is regarded as a quality image

[Antonio S.]

@MackemX:but not everyone can see this due to their own setups so therefore their opinion is limited and then add to that a user's definition of what is regarded as a quality image...
Or because there are a lot of peoples (especially the one that post in the DVD2one forum) that are so FANATIC that cannot see clearly the diference!!! That is why I had been posting, that even when at first release DVD2one was a good product, its development had been too slow and at this moment it is mediocre. This are the same people that do not see any diference between DVD2one, DVD95Copy, or IC...

Antonio S.

[ody96]

Probably is a good idea if someone who will post their opinions regarding the picture quality should state their video setup, whether on computer's crt/tft, TV (with Video RCA, S-Video, or Component RGB), HDTV etc.

[monomer]

All of these compression tools have their limits... where that is is highly dependent upon your player's capabilities and your display's capabilities. I watch my movies on a 114" wide screen and my front projector is 'fed' by my computer. This set-up allows me to see minor flaws that most people would never notice on their TVs and computer monitors. My set-up limits DVD21 at about 5.4 or 5.5Gb. Beyond that point DVD21 causes what I call "pulsing focus"... where things start to go in and out of focus. With movies larger than 6Gb it is absolutely intolerable. Now on my computer monitor or 27" sony trinitron, I could actually still watch such a movie. However unless you want to re-copy all your larger movies again whenever you up-grade your system next, you should instead pick a better compression tool for the larger movies or do a 1:1 split across 2 discs.
BTW, viewing through my set-up, I 'peg' IC7 limits at about 6Gb... which is where skin tones and dark areas in the movie start to become 'blotchy' or pixellated. Above 6.3Gb it is absolutely intolerable. And CCE looks good even at 7.53Gb... in other words, I've not yet found its limits... can anyone suggest a movie larger "Apocalypes Now Redux"? Its 7.53Gb stripped to movie only, one sound track and no subs.

[ody96]

Monomer, thanks for the stats.

Have you check Lord of The Ring Fellowship of the Ring special extended edition which the main movie only is in 2 DVDs? With all audio tracks and subtitles, the first disc (main movie only) is 6.2GB and second disc 7GB, combined will be 13 gigs! I haven't and probably will not try to rip with only 1 audio track and no subt, but guessing will be more than 9GB.

Please update us if you happen to have that movie and will do CCE and check if it still good on your huge screen, and how long to render with CCE :)

Just a quick question before doing some search (lazy me), what other softwares you use besides CCE? As far as I know, sometimes CCE with 4 passes (with DVD2SVCD) will produce more than 4.7GB so it wont fit into a single DVDR.

[thop]

monomer, i'm wondering. can you see DVD artifacts with your setup? with mine i can see flaws in quite a few movies (the usual suspects are color gradients, dark areas with slight color and light, large areas with uniform color, also bodyskin). i've got a panasonic TV (80cm, no idea how many inch that is, 24"?) and a yamaha dvd player.

strangely i can't really see the heavy artifacts that many claim to see with dvdshrink'ed movies. i only encode up to level 2 though. >6 i can clearly see them. 3-5 i have difficulties.

any idea? maybe i'm looking for the wrong things?

[MackemX]

monomer, don't forget people's levels of what is acceptable can vary greatly also

I can understand you having a high level of quality that is acceptable as yours seems quite high from what you say, but I cannot understand how you can give specific sizes as cutoff points for programs

DVD's have varying quality of content and this will affect how it will look when reduced

the size of the image will show differences but I can see the minor flaws on my 20" LG TV with DVD2One, yet my 36" TV produces a better sharper better image than the smaller LG TV

my TFT which shows more pulsing/crawling/loss of detail again from DVD2One/DVDShrink compared to others!

but the CRT monitor actually makes the image acceptable but softer

I feel Plasmas/TFT's sometimes show too much detail and especially when you look at them closely. They are too noisy and grainy and actually make the picture poorer in my eyes because of this. That's why I decided on a CRT rather than a Plasma

when you view a DVD from DVD2One/DVDShrink or similar it it easy to see the parts where the detail has been lost on such setups but I also think even the original suffers slightly on these setups because of the grainy/noisy effect

certain projectors may also give the same effect you see on a Plasma/TFT cos they show such high definition detail. Dunno how sharp yours is tho but it sounds quite sharp :)

I'm fussy about quality (had a few head against wall discussions about DVD2One/DVDShrink quality etc :) )but not as fussy as my friend who is creating a cinema room above his garage and gonna spend even more 1000's on the projector setup to go with his awesome sound setup. He's that fussy about quality he refuses to watch the DVD's he already has on his normal setup until he's finished the project cos he wants to enjoy the quality

now that's fussy :eek:, but I won't be complaining when I go round with my tub of popcorn :D

p.s. My TV even allows me to view my PC at 1024x768 resolution and read with ease which ain't bad for a CRT

[mpucoder]

80cm = 31.5 inches

[monomer]

ody96... I don't own or have access to the extended edition of Lord of the Rings... it appears to be a monster. I have DVD21, IC7, DVDShrink (though I've rarely used it), DVDToolBox (this is how I do my 1:1 splits to 2 discs... I use to do it with IfoEdit), DVD2DVD-R/CCE Basic which produces outstanding quality compression BUT... there are player compatibility problems with NTSC (see the other threads in this forum)... and that's it.

thop... that's a 32-inch Panny you've got there... I don't know what to look for in DVDShrink since I've not used it much. It would seem to me that all of these compression tools should create their own unique flaws/artifacts when really "pushed their limits". When you speak of DVD artifacts are you referring to the original (manufactured) DVDs. I see mistakes yes but I never really know if it was in the original film or due to poor encoding, however with my compressed backups I just have to compare those to the original and I can easily distinguish what the compression artifacts.

MackemX... You make several good points. When I first got my projector I was just so amazed at the big picture everything looked good, I saw flaws in nothing... but it is surprising how fast I got 'spoiled'. And these darn forums didn't help either, 'cause once you learn how to spot various flaws you can't help but see them anytime they're present... to the point where you can no longer concentrate on the movie in the presence of these flaws. Yes, its probably a type of insanity... beware! The other point you alluded to was my ability to be so numerical in my cut-off points. You're right in that compression artifacts don't work exactly that way... for instance: take 2 movies, both are 6Gb in size however one movie is 1.5 hours long the other is 2.5 hours. The bitrate is so high in the first movie that it could be compressed quite a bit more before the compression artifacts became apparent whereas the second movie would not render itself quite as compression 'friendly'. I just developed my number cut-off system as a guide for me to use to help me decide which compression tool/method I should use (there's no way I'm going to use them all and then choose which is best). However after making almost 100 backups, experience has shown me that it is not all that unreasonable to use file size (or degree of compression) to determine when to switch methods. BTW, my projector's native resolution of 856X480 is not that great... though I do have my computer set-up for a 1:1 pixel map so as not to allow my projector to do any scaling and thus avoid having it add its own (scaling) artifacts to the mix. Basically its the sheer physical size of the screen that allows me to be annoyed by these minor artifacts.

[jzaman]

monomer:
My final solution to all these visual problems is to never buy a TV bigger than my 27" Sony and never buy a new pair of glasses.:)

[thop]

'cause once you learn how to spot various flaws you can't help but see them anytime they're present... to the point where you can no longer concentrate on the movie in the presence of these flaws. Yes, its probably a type of insanity... beware!
Wise words :) I've been wondering myself if those guys with a very high quality setup are actually blessed or cursed. I guess it's both.

[mpucoder]

Most DVDs are reviewed on imdb.com, and very few get high marks for quality. Before you buy a DVD it's not a bad idea to read this review to see if the transfer was decent (because garbage in = garbage out). But whoever does the review spots more flaws than I ever do, his life must be miserable when watching Fox (inside dig, they have a terrible problem with digital dropouts on their primary distribution net, leading to whole frames disappearing at times)
Just like anything, once you know the technology, such as blue-screen and wire removal, you get distracted, and miss the story.

[chipvideo]

I just want to say one thing. Get rid of the crappy s-video cables that come with your dvd player. I have over $1500 in cables for my home theater. You will be VERY surprised when you get the highest grade video and audio cables. :-)

[mrbass]

wow ...well I'm a poor juerro and best buy sells component cables for $30 so I picked up some way back when.

[ody96]

wow chipvideo, if you spent that much for av cables, probably you won't need dvd backups then, just take one more dvd at stores :). All monstercables?

[thop]

(monstercables is a scam)

[mpucoder]

You'd be very surprised what 3 RG59U or RG58U cables for RGB would look like - identical, and much cheaper. I've worked for years in broadcast television, and that's what we use. OFC is a nice gimmick (Oxygen Free Copper), makes the cable shiny and less likely to corrode. But monster cables are a ripoff.

[brett]

Originally posted by thop
the usual suspects are color gradients, dark areas with slight color and light, large areas with uniform color, also bodyskin).

If you're talking about the original release of Usual Suspects, that DVD is completely screwed up. Try paying attention to the Chaz's office window blinds and it'll drive you insane.

And yes, MonsterCable is for morons :)

[ody96]

ripoff if you buy monster component rgb 4' for $70 at bestbuy. how about if, say, I get it for $20? [sears selling $25], and don't have messy cables for 3 coax setup.

brett, nice "widescreen" you got there, is like a 40" ?

[brett]

I guess I can agree with that. Best Buy sucks, not necessarily Monster Cable.

Yeah, my computer's something like 40", but seeing as it's got gaps between the monitors I'd still rather watch movies on my 27" TV.

[waldok]

I just want to say one thing. Get rid of the crappy s-video cables that come with your dvd player. I have over $1500 in cables for my home theater. You will be VERY surprised when you get the highest grade video and audio cables. :-)

The cable story again...Well, I'm very pleased that you are happy with those unbelievably expensive cables (though I can't evan dare to imagine how much you paid for speakers, receiver and DVD player...)

I tried DVD2one transcodings on my 43" TV and the result was not Ok for me, no matter what cables I used. Artefacts generated by the transcoding operation or this annoying "pulsating effect" will not be removed by 1500$ cables. That's an (arte)fact :rolleyes:

My opinion is that you would need to buy extremely high grade equipement in order to notice any difference between average cables and high grade cables on perfect sources, and this difference is brought down to zero on "average" sources like most of the ones we usually use.

Plus, as home theater people say, your installation value is determined by its weakest element, so there is no need to use 1500$ cables if your receiver, DVD player or speakers are 1000$ altogether...(which is approximately my case:D)

And one more word, if I could buy 1500$ cables, I would not spend hours backuping my DVD collection, I'd rather buy 2 copies...and use my spare time to something else (girls ? sport ? don't you give me ideas now...)

Don't take it personal here, since as usual, the main point is that you enjoy your installation. But it's just that I've been participating in Home theater forums for a long time and this "magical but expensive cables" question was one of the most often encountered discussion...Now I've come back to a very simple conclusion for my needs : get "good quality" cables, but don't get "high grade" ones, unless your whole installation is even "higher" grade...
And regarding MPEG2 compression, I'm even afraid great quality equipement will only help you notice the artefacts even more...:p

Waldok :cool:

[mpucoder]

Glad somebody brought us back to the topic, sort of.
The original DVD is 7GB, I used full copy.
None of these programs will produce a very good picture when reducing 7GB to 4.3GB! General concensus is 6GB is the upper limit.

As for cables, and other components, the very existence of Tweeter proves there are plenty of fools willing to pay too much for home theater equipment. For those not familiar with Tweeter, I went in there one time to enquire about a DD decoder to upgrade my system (which had Dolby Pro Logic at the time, and I wanted to use the S/PDIF output). They showed me a $10,000 unit! When I asked if they had anything less expensive, they showed me the "economy" $5,000 unit. I don't know who made them, didn't even look. I know the cost of DSPs and DACs, the 2 principal components, would account for maybe $25 worth of parts, and no amount of money thrown in after that will improve the sound.
Please don't think I have a cheap system, either, I use Bose speakers and Carver amps (except on the LFE, which is Crown, Carver has very low power reserve).

[ody96]

There are some reasons why a person who spent $1500 for cables only is still wasting his time making dvd backups:

1. The dvd is out of print, he cant find it in stores, and dont want to waste time ebaying.
2. Own a superfast computer, multi processor with Pentium-V 6Ghz, able to rip and copy a dvd in 10 minutes, faster than going to the store back and forth.
3. Bad economy. This is no joke, my friend spent $10,000 six years ago for his thx certified home theater (except tv and vcr of course) and now he's applying his wife a medicaid.

no offense please, my 9 cents.

[waldok]

Everyone is free to spend as much as they want on cables. Now the highest grade cables will not remove DVD2one MPEG2 transcoding artefacts. That was just my point.

(Ody, it was your 9 cents ? Man, I usually give my 2 cents only, you sure have more money than me to buy great cables :p :p )

Waldok:cool:

[mrbass]

The masses are truely hopeless....that's about all I have to say about this. Once the masses figure out about about dvd ripoff scam sotware that they buy in a year or so then the next wave will be dvd copy software riddled like mad cows disease with spyware and adware fully injected up the ying yang.


DVD X Copy Xpress
http://download.com.com/3302-2194_4-10201041.html

1st DVD Ripper
http://download.com.com/3302-2194_4-10200995.html

Amigo DVD Ripper
http://download.com.com/3302-2194_4-10201225.html

Super DVD Creator
http://download.com.com/3302-2194_4-10201272.html

DVDCutter Stream and MP3CDWav Converter
http://download.com.com/3302-2194_4-10176608.html

DUP-DVD
http://download.com.com/3302-2194_4-10196430.html

Here's a small tidbit...if you type 'dvd backup' into google doom9.net popups as the first hit. Problem is that most people don't think of 'backup' but rather 'copy' so they type 'dvd copy'. So if doom9 started putting a few terms throughout his site 'dvd copy' then perhaps there'd be hope for the masses.

[waldok]

Maybe you mixed up answers and threads, didn't you ? Wasn't your answer meant for the other thread about DVDshrink clone ?

Time to get some sleep, huh ? ;) ;)

Waldok:cool:

[mrbass]

yep wrong thread...I need some serious help

[Sp33d]

Personally I think DVD2One has a lower threshold for quality. I've done some movies that were 5.1GB and some scenes were terrible. In those situations I go back to CCE. In the case where I have a movie that is 4.39GB - 4.90GB I try DVD2One first.

[mij]

ody96,
I dont think doing a full copy of the "Eagles DTS" with DVD2One is the right disk to use as an example, as apart from the DTS soundtrack it has a LPCM 2.0 channel soundtrack which is around 2GB in size. If you deselected this first it would make a huge difference to the final picture quality.

mij

[tongsli]

After only using IC7 and Dvd Shrink(to crop and re-author) I purchased DVD2One as well. I'm just as disappointed with the quality. It's no better than DVD shrink.

So, back to IC7 and the 2-3 hour wait. At least the DVD is of good quality.

Tongsli

[barking_mad]

Aftermnot using DVD2one since the first release I thought I'd give it another go.. My first attempt was the office, now I know this isnt fair as it's a multi eppisode DVD with approx 170 mins on video... but it is only 2 chan sound and I thought it should at least be acceptable. For the most part it was O.K with only minor artifacts around actors heads and arounf writing on screen etc. 4 eppisodes passed and It was livable with. Episodes 5 and 6 had some scenes shot in a club and at night etc... Oh my god how ugly? it was like looking at a scrabble board. Macroblocks the size of your fist.
Oh well, worth a try as it only took about 23 min of my time.

[jesoonster]

Ima gonna put off on copying hollywood movies for a while....lucky that I only copy anime and any visible difference I see using IC copies are almost neglible compared to the original source. Hell even DVD shrink is ok up to 5 gigs...almost looks perfect for most of what's out there....

[chipvideo]

Has anyone tried the new dvdxcopy express?

Just wondering how it compares to IC, dvd95copy and dvd2one. Thoughts please?

[tongsli]

Chip,

I've only used DVD2ONE, IC7, and DVD SHRINK. So far IC7 is the best in terms of quality.

Trying all of these can get expensive especially if you end up not liking them.

Tongsli

[chipvideo]

I just wish that IC could do movie only option. I just hate having to have all the extra stuff taking up space. I also wish they would make an encode option for the picture quality folks. Like 3 options with the best option taking as long as 6 hours to encode. Heck we all have to sleep at night anyhow so it doesn't bother me having it take a long time.

[MackemX]

Originally posted by chipvideo
I just wish that IC could do movie only option. I just hate having to have all the extra stuff taking up space. I also wish they would make an encode option for the picture quality folks. Like 3 options with the best option taking as long as 6 hours to encode. Heck we all have to sleep at night anyhow so it doesn't bother me having it take a long time. just rip out the main movie using DVDToolbox

takes 7-8 mins but then IC will accept the movie only file no problems :D

[chipvideo]

Thanks MackemX

I think that is the best way. Easy as heck.

[Ray_D_O]

I personally think DVD95COPY smokes dvd2one. I've taken 7-8 Gig movies and used dvd95copy and the quality is very good. The only problem I've had with this pgm is that it won't backup Eagles Hell Freezes Over... it only encodes the beginning part leading up to the actual concert, then it stops! Weird... I compared a few movies that were large in size and I gotta say, the degredation is minimal!