XviD 1.0 - @Nic

[U977]

Hello Nic,

Sorry, but I could not resist to add a comment about the discussion you had on the thread you closed. Grrrr, why did you close it too fast?? :-)

I'm also waiting for 1.0 before I use XviD.

Why? Because, at least, we have a starting point to use XviD. This codec is still under heavy development, and sometimes, you get a new release that can't play nicely movies encoded with earlier version of the codec. Some new release also bring new bugs.

The world needs standards, even if they are not perfect.
SMTP is not perfect, but without it, we would not have had e-mail so fast. Same with FTP for file transfert.

At least, with 1.0, we will have a common basis to work with.

[Teegedeck]

Well, DivX (you mentioned this in your post on the 'which one is better'-thread -- hey, ain't I supposed to close such threads?! ;)) is a good example of how worthless version numbers can be. DXN have constantly given the false impression that users are dealing with a finished product here, but in reality their big steps in version numbers always represented buggy alpha versions... And worse than that, by not adressing problems that are still present in their code, they let their users believe that everything's OK and standard-compliant with their DivX5-encoded videos, although we should very much doubt that, at least as far as DivX5's quarterpel is concerned.

There are always risks of errors overlooked in the sourcecode, so I think versionnumber--schmerschionnumber; what the heck!

[Nic]

What teegedeck said is exactly what I was trying to get across. And said repeatedly.

But no, users in this forum are really getting in the mood to argue, all people wanted to do was say im wrong, for what its worth Im going to leave the XviD forum, Koepi isnt even posting here that much anymore, and although he's busy, I cant help but feel its because of the current user base and attitude.

Im off to get myself unmodded from this forum, so you can all do whatever the hell you want.

-Nic

[bilu]

Nic,

It's pretty much normal that when things get nearly stable you start getting the attention of other kind of users. I don't want to get into the "l33t vs lame" attitude, but a good example is the need of a sticky like "** Gentle reminder about manners in a forum **" in the GKnot forum.

Just look into those forums of one-click tools like Vidomi, DVDx and others.
Most of the time the users of easy-tools forget that developers are creating something to learn from it, and then share with the community to see how good their work is or isn't, getting self-esteem but also learning to hear other's feedback.

These breed of users start demanding because things are not done yet or not so easy as they would like and they start shouting even before looking for alternatives.

I'd like to add I'm not a developer.


But don't let the project die, developers, please? :rolleyes:

[CruNcher]

@U977

what you say is not important for the XviD Project and thats what it is exactly a Scientific Project and not any Buisness like DivX. People like Koepi and Nic try to bring it a little closer to the "not so interrested people in Video Compression" but they don't try to sell any stuff like DXN is doing so why can't you accept this and the Core Team also is not doing this because of profit users that follow the Development closer "in a Scientific way" know how much more advanced XviD is then DivX @ the moment so please accept it or don't complain anymore about such things as 1.0 its only a number but DivX is making Buisness with these numbers XviD doesn't.

Nic arghhh please don't only because some people doesn't wan't to understand shouldn't let you give up, their enough people here who honour your work you done in the past and you'll do in the future so don't withdraw please :(

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Nic Im off to get myself unmodded from this forum, so you can all do whatever the hell you want. -Nic

Nic, take a break if you are exhausted, but please dont give up just like that. I had the same feeling in the Vdub Forum last week, when i had to answer for the xxx'th time why Virtualdub can not decompress AVIs with AC3 audio :( .....

Its a pitty there is no kick function on a webboard, like there is on IRC. If we had one we should ask mf to be mod here, hell that would be fun to watch him kick certain asses :D !!! LOL ....

[JimiK]

As many others also already stated: I can't understand why some people are so obsessed by something >0 before a comma. As a long time XviD user I can see that the devels did three things "wrong".
1. they did not give their stable build the version 1.0, just because there are many neat features like b-frames that are not implemented. I can perfectly understand that the did not call it 1.0. On the other hand: this build is stable and you will be able to playback the created files with every upcoming version of XviD.
2. they actually tell the people that there could be problems with their dev-builds. DXN just states that their codec is version 5 and everybody thinks that it's perfect, while it's far from that. As most of you might know: XviD devels work hard to keep this codec Mpeg4 compliant, while DXN does not bother with this.
3. they fail to make clear, that even though there are the same features in DivX as in XviD, XviDs features are superior (more than 1 consecutive B-Frame, GMC with 2 warppoints...)
Finally, I have to say that I can't understand why the XviD devels should want that these people that say they won't use XviD until 1.0 actually get convinced of XviD. (extra point if you can read this last sentence :))
Oh, one thing I've forgotten. Nic: please don't leave us. Everytime I check this forum and I see that you posted, I know that it's worth reading. I also see the same questions over and over again, but I think, sometimes it's just better when you "overlook" those posts.
Best regards,
JimiK

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW

If we had one we should ask mf to be mod here, hell that would be fun to watch him kick certain asses :D !!! LOL ....

NO ! :eek:

[U977]

Dear all,

I think you get me wrong... I definitively don't try to argue with anyone! I just wanted to share my opinion...

Ok, please close the thread if it must be so. I was not aware that my post sounded agressive.

I appreciate a lot efforts of the XviD community, and consider using it when it will comes to 1.0 stage. I don't blame anyone for anything, by the contrary I thank people for all work that has been done.

Maybe I arrived at the worng moment in teh discussion. When there are too many posts, I don't read everything. So, if there were rude posts about this topic, I'm sorry to arrive at a bad moment. My apologies for this.

For me, XviD seems to be much better than DivX, but I won't use it until most of us, users, will agree on the version we should use.

But please don't take me wrong. I like to discuss about things, but I don't mean to argue. I'm sorry, Nic.

Philippe

[U977]

Just another and last post to say that I'm aware that XviD is a present, and not something we owe.

I did not mean to bring troubles in the place, I just thought it was an acceptable subject of discussion.
The fact is that the reputation of XviD (about quality) makes it sound like an official codec to the average user. I guess it's why we react the same way than with the other codecs.
Thinking about it, this is a real evidence that XviD is a real challenger.

I'm probably stubborn :-) You know, I admit I regularly download developper builts. I don't use them yet, but just in case... Because I know that XviD is worth it.

[bilu]

@U977

What about starting to get used to XVID? ;)

Iago's 2-pass encoding document (good to start learning)
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36915

Try encoding small chapters, when having problems you can allways get help here. This is the kind of feedback we like to have:

noob treatment in forums
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51287

Avisynth is another example of a powerful beta tool with lots of beta plugins that has become a standard between encoders. And it's beta!


Best regards,
Bilu

[Sigmatador]

Originally posted by U977
Sorry, but I could not resist to add a comment about the discussion you had on the thread you closed.

my poor thread :'( .... :D

i don't care if the xvid number is 1, 0.9 or 100000. it was just about the new features of this version (specially trellis quant... i read all the XviD MLs ^^)

with its alpha stage, XviD is better than many "final products" (hum something like 5.0x ^^ )

so close this thread again (the next time i will call my post "new features" ^^ )

[crusty]

Nic: please don't leave us. Everytime I check this forum and I see that you posted, I know that it's worth reading.

I agree wholeheartedly. Your expertise and constructive posts are warmly welcomed by many, including me.

And I find most discussions I have with both you and other experienced xvid people to be very constructive and helpful.
So please don't leave us, it would be a great loss to this community.

[h0MBRe]

Koepi isnt even posting here that much anymore, and although he's busy, I cant help but feel its because of the current user base and attitude.

Im off to get myself unmodded from this forum, so you can all do whatever the hell you want.

You won't believe how lame that sounds.

Now that so many have their heads right up in your arse ("please, don't leave!", "I love your work!"), let me post: I don't give a shit if you leave this forum!

Let's face it: you are a developer of free software, and as such it does not come with a proper documentation usable by the dumbest n00b imaginable, so naturally you have to face the social challenge which comes in the shape of highly unqualified questions answered a thousand times before. A developer who hangs out in public forums is unlikely to be "Last Action Hero", but rather "Kindergarten Cop".

But then I ask myself: in so many posts, you, Nic, and others, have claimed you're in this for the sole fun, so why do you even bother about lame questions? Do they pop-up in your source code editor? Likely not.

More than that, I suppose there's another reason for such complaints and public grievance: with the advent of one-click-solutions (dvd2one et.al.) and new encoding schemes (h.264), you still not have a working encoder which does b-frames correctly. Time is running out for your project, so you're in search for an exit: "We had so much fun working on XViD, but the ever increasing number of dumb user questions and requests drained too much of our energy, so we stalled development. So don't blame us for never releasing a final version! Blame Doom 9's forum users!"

You already know - taking your resources and time into account - that by the time you release the next stable version, a large number of former XViD users will have turned their backs, enjoying acceptable quality with less hassle.

But then: that's what the game is about, learn it or leave it!

h0MBRe

[bilu]

@h0MBRe

The problem with almost all open-source software is that most of the times little human resources are given to write documentation, maybe because developers don't want to loose their thread of thought.

What most open-sources communities (myself included in those) still need to learn is that writing documentation also plays a big part, and lets the developers focus on what they do best: develop :)

This way they would only need to answer coherent questions from those who actually write documentation and have been following all the process.

There are a few open-source projects like Postgresql, mysql, the BSDs, KDE and others that have already learned the value of documentation.

But there is a general feeling on those communities that their work will be valuable for business. And they want to compete on a professional market.

XVID developers just want to explore the best encoding methods for MPEG-4, learn something with it and have a lot of fun in between.
And bash DXN when it's fair :)

Ever contacted with the Linux communities? :devil: It 100 times worst.


Bilu

[Swede]

Originally posted by h0MBRe
I don't give a shit if you leave this forum!
Ever read the rules? #4! *whack*

[kilg0r3]

@ homber or something

... ignored ...

[h0MBRe]

@bilu:

I totally agree with you. Most of "development" should be spent on writing the specification, then another good porting in debugging ... the specification.

Then again, if you're providing support in public forums, unfiltered by help desk assistants, you spend most of the time pointing to FAQ's, manuals, and other forum posts, and the smallest amount of time goes into responding to novel questions or requests.

One needs to learn handling that at the same proficiency as he writes code.

h0MBRe

[BoNz1]

This whole thread makes me sick. hOMBRe there is tons and tons of docs on xvid any n00b could figure it out if they would just read them. I think most do but unfortunately there are some that do not. Your entire post is completely misinformed IMO to be honest I don't even know when to start. I beg the mods to please close this thread since it is just turned into bashing of everyone else and wasn't even about anything constructive to begin with. I don't even want to get myself into this discussion since it will only lead to flaming except to say that Nic, Keopi and others are _very_ valuable members of this community and I hope very much that they stay.

[Doom9]

Let's face it: you are a developer of free software, and as such it does not come with a proper documentation usable by the dumbest n00b imaginable, so naturally you have to face the social challenge which comes in the shape of highly unqualified questions answered a thousand times before.meek... wrong answer. Not on this board! We expect people to make an extra effort here.. people not doing that will pull down the discussion level to standards of certain other boards and I'm not gonna have that... so if my moderators have the impression that a forum is degrading (and I do share that view) we'll remember the rules and use our strike button to restore what we deem an acceptable environment. Nobody forced you to use XviD.. if you can't handle it that's solely your own problem and doesn't give you the right to bother the developers. I belive it's time some of you remembered what ddogg had to say in the GKnot forum a long time ago: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14432. Developers don't owe you anything! They provide you with a free service. You either take it or leave it. In my country we have a saying that goes something like this: You don't check the mouth of a horse that was given to you for free.
There's more than enough information about all the different settings in xvid throughout this forum, and a considerable part of it is also in my guides. If that isn't enough you are welcome to find your own "best" settings by doing what the experts do: perform your own tests.

[kilg0r3]

@ Doom9

Thanks.