Temp solution for Interlaced pal streams in DoCCE4U

[-=ViBeZ=-]

Ok guys, some people who are using docce4u on PAL dvd's have noticed that their extras are coming out shakey when viewed on a standalone dvd player. I believe this is because DoCCE4U forces cce to use zigzag scanning on these interlaced streams. The problem occurs because these streams are interlaced and must not be encoded using zig zag scanning. Untill BBWolf adds the option to deselect zigzag scanning in his app, I have created a .reg file that you can use to create additional templates to solve this.

First you must run this .reg file, it will let you add these two templates to the dropdown menu (big thank to 69Mws for pointing this out :) )

Template_Mods.zip (http://mysite.freeserve.com/xplicit/Template_Mods.zip)

Now you will have the following templates available to you

Robshot-bach - for progressive
Multipass VBR
One Pass VBR
One Pass CBR
---------
Plus
---------
Robshot-bach-interlaced-ttf (for top field first)

This is the one you want if your source is top field first interlaced [it activates alternative scanning & DISABLES the top field first option]

Robshot-bach-interlaced-bbf (for bottom field first)

And this one is what you would use if your source is bottom field interlaced [it activates alternative scanning & ACTIVATES the top field first option] - BFF interlaced is quite rare to see on pal dvd's. But it can appear!!!

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So, how do you know if your source is interlaced BFF or TFF? good question. Nobody really knows for sure! But if it really is interlaced, then it is more often than not gonna be TFF.
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when a particular template is selected for a source, it will affect that source only! So now you can have interlaced & progressive jobs in the same queue & they will each get processed individually depending on which template you picked for them :)


The other solution is to let Dif4u deinterlace your streams, this will slow down your cce speed but will definatley solve your problem of trying to determine if your source is TFF or BFF

Enjoy!

Tested on V1.0.1.0 only. Use at own risk if using a diffrent version!!!!

If the reg files dont work out, just uninstall DoCCE4U & reinstall a fresh copy :)


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BBWolf I hope you dont mind me posting this!??!

[69Mws]

If I understand this right, your setting will change the setting on a "global level". I mean it takes effect for all encoding processes that are controlled by DoCCE4U.

And that's where I see the problem, because there are lots of PAL DVDs with a progressive movie but interlaced extras, so you need individual settings and not global parameters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I didn't get your point right :)

Greetz
69Mws

[-=ViBeZ=-]

well all it does is replace the cbr template with a new robshot-bach template that will set the correct settings for interlaced pal.

so if you have source that is progressive, you would just select the normal robshot template,

if you have another source in your list that is interlaced, you would select my modified template for that source ONLY.

therefore you can select individual templates for each source, be it robshot interlaced or robshot progressive


does that make sense?

[69Mws]

mkay, now I see :)

[69Mws]

By the way: if you're from Germany, you could maybe tell me if you got the File Open Dialogue proper working.

I mean the setting in "Open dialog 'Open' button text". What did you put there in?

Greetz
69Mws

[-=ViBeZ=-]

I'm english, I just use the default command 'open'

by the way

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\WoofSoft\DoCCE4U\template\

if you browse to there, & edit the last reg key in your desired template, you can change the default value for the Image Quality Priority setting.

[69Mws]

Hi PAL, :D

this whole registry editing works quite well for me. You can change all settings that are not changeable at the moment via the DoCCE4U interface :)

And I found out, how you can add your templates without replacing the CBR Template!

In [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\WoofSoft\DoCCE4U\template\ is a key named "standard" which has the value "0123". That's how the templatefolders are named below.

Change this key now to "012345" and edit the first line in each of your regfiles with [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\WoofSoft\DoCCE4U\template\4] and [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\WoofSoft\DoCCE4U\template\5]. Now add your own two templates to the registry and they will also be available in the DoCCE4U interface :)

I really hope, BBWoof is not kicking our asses for "customizing" his nice program for PAL requirements... :)

Greetz
69Mws

[-=ViBeZ=-]

thanx m8!

I've updated the 1st post & the .reg file

[69Mws]

Yup, that's a pretty good solution for us PAL guys, until BBWoof enhances the DoCCE4U interface :)

Now that everything's working as I need it, I give it a shot with one of my Ally McBeal Season DVDs for testing.

I also want to try how this DeInterlace stuff is working. As far as I can see now, the speed drop is quite huge.....CCE runs only with 1.1....normally I have 1.6 or more :(

Regarding to CCE speed, I think encoding with tff-settings is better, when recognizing in DVD2AVI that it's interlaced. As you know, with TFF you're running right in most interlaced cases.

Maybe Eyes' Only can figure out, how to determine it automatically, whether it's bff or tff with the sample clips I sent him. We'll see about that.

Greetz
69Mws

[-=ViBeZ=-]

yeah all my dvd's that i've tried this on are tff so far. I've updated the .reg files again so that everything is now in one regfile.

I hope someone can crack all this ttf/bff/progressive detection stuff.

Its a right pain when you have one pgc then changes field halfway through :(

Let us know how it goes....

[baker]

Just to say thanks vibez!
I might finnaly be able to get encoding a few dvds now!
Baker

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by 69Mws
Maybe Eyes' Only can figure out, how to determine it automatically, whether it's bff or tff with the sample clips I sent him. We'll see about that.

I think, in order to figure this out, we're going to have to get down to actually analyzing the individual frames of the avi/avs file. It's a little bit tougher programming.

BBWoof

[BBWoof]

Originally posted by 69Mws
I really hope, BBWoof is not kicking our asses for "customizing" his nice program for PAL requirements... :)


This sounds like a great temporary solution. I have a bunch of ideas, one of which is to add the ability to add/delete/edit templates. Unfortunately my ideas currently are greater than my time to implement them.

BBWoof

[Deltis]

For a future PAL interlaced integration:

Please notice that "Top Field First" (=TFF) handling for interlaced material is not activated by the "Upper field first"-switch of CCE!

For interlaced sources: "Upper field first" of CCE changes the fields of the input source in order to handle "Bottom Field First" (=BFF) input(!) - but for TFF-input this change will produce shakey output.

There still seems to be a common misunderstanding of this switch ;)

[69Mws]

@Deltis:

yup, that's right, we already posted exactly this issue in this thread :)

Greetz
69Mws

[brashquido]

Excellent!! I can't wait to give this a try :) . What's the easiest/quickest reliable way of determining wether a PAL clip is interlaced or not? I know DVD2AVI does it. Does DIF4U log this info if logging is turned on?

[Grover]

I am a PAL user also. Can I go right back the start of the backup process and ask -

If I alreay know that my source is PAL interlaced,
and if I tell DoItFast4U to de-interlace when IT runs (ie: no auto-detection of NTSC, tick the deinterlace box),
then can I treat the rest of the project from then on (DoCCE4U, RA etc...) as being "progressive".
Thereby maybe "preventing" the issues and workarounds described above.

Or is it not that simple ? Does the BFF vs TFF issue mean this won't work ?

Cheers...

[69Mws]

Grover:

Forget about that workaround. It came up, because in older DoCCE4U it was not possible to select Alternate Scanning in the UI.

That was needed if you want to encode PAL Interlaced as interlaced without DeInterlacing it.

Greetz
69Mws

[Grover]

69Mws:

Thanks for the reply. Does this mean that the recently released guide (http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/ra-guide) has an error. It suggest this as one way of dealing with PAL:

From the bottom part of the #2 Demultiplexing section -
In case you're dealing with a PAL project and already know which VTS sets and PGCs are interlaced you can uncheck that button for complete VTS sets and choose an option manually. For instance, my example has VTS1 and VTS3 purely interlaced, so there I could uncheck AutoDetect NTSC Video Type and check Deinterlace. I'm sure your way is more pure and probably gives better results. What differences would I notice and what would you say the main benefit is (quality wise, speed wise) between letting DIF4U deinterlace or doing it using your way in DoCCE4U?

Reason I ask is becuase I had already tried "my way" on a movie this morning, and I have just burnt it to DVD-RW. I will check it in my stand alone (plays fine in PC), but am also re-doing it from scratch using your method to compare. What sort of things would I look for when watching the finished products to see the differences.

Thanks for your help.

[69Mws]

Well, there are two sides:

Using DeInterlacing drops speed of CCE 'round 0.3-0.4 for me compared to encoding without DeInterlacing.

Processing interlaced PAL (top field first) without DeInterlacing and the proper settings in DoCCE4U (uncheck progressive, check Alternate) is somewhat slower than encoding a true progressive source, but still faster than DeInterlacing. BTW: you can also use the AVS Options for Pure Interlaced, it'll also work, but won't enhance speed.

I'm not 100% satisfied with this DeInterlacing Stuff, 'cause the results looked bit "blurry" for me, maybe because I tested it on animated stuff (e.g. Simpsons), which had some fast action movement in it.

So what may be the reason for DeInterlacing? It's that interlaced Streams are told to need higher bitrate for retaining good quality compared to progressive material. Well, anyway, when it comes to encoding the extrastuff and you don't use a high avg bitrate, let's say ~1200, it doesn't matter anyway whether you're doing DeInterlacing or encode it interlaced.....both won't look very fine, from what I saw 'til now.

Greetz
69Mws

[69Mws]

By the way:

I just read in the Guide that Doom9 is checking Top Field First in DoCCE4U when encoding PAL interlaced as interlaced without DeInterlacing.

This is only needed when the source is Bottom-Field-First interlaced! Yeah right, it's the contrary, when it's PAL tff-interlaced uncheck Top Field First, when it's PAL bff-interlaced (very rare) check Top Field First.

By checking Top Field First on an tff-interlaced PAL Stream, it will probably come out shaky.

Greetz
69Mws

[69Mws]

You may also check out the CCE FAQ (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53770) on this PAL interlaced stuff --> Question 10 :)
First, you have to know that CCE (SP as well as Basic) always outputs video that is flagged "top field first" (there is a flag in the MPEG header that tells the player which field of the decoded frame to display first on a TV screen). There is no way in CCE to change this. According to Custom Technology, this is not a bug but a feature of CCE... Actually what happens if you check "Upper Field First" is that CCE assumes that source is bff and converts it to tff so it complies with the always set tff flag. It does so by shifting each frame up by one line, ensuring that the previously bottom fields are now top fields and the video is played back correctly. This is not the most sophisticated way to handle the situation, but it works and you won't notice the missing line at the top.

So here is the rule of thumb: Always uncheck "Upper Field First" unless your video is interlaced AND bottom field first. Progressive material is always top field first.



Greetz
69Mws