Extras are shakey using Dif4u & DoCCE4U

[-=ViBeZ=-]

hi,

I've been trying to master this method of backup insteadd of the 'one click' solutions but I kep running into the same error.

The main movie always looks great, but any extras on my disc look really shakey & choppy.

I do Pal DVD's & set the bitrates for the extras at 1800 as the guide mentions. I just cant think why only the extras look shakey. I've tried many differnt dvds & still I get the same results.

Could it be the fact that i'm using the roba method in docce4u? Are these tools working correctly with pal dvd?

HELP!

thanx in advance:(

[69Mws]

Your Extras seem to be interlaced.

Deactivate "Upper Field First" and also uncheck "ZigZag Scanning". That should do the job.

If it's still shaky, leave ZigZag unchecked, but activate Upper Field First, but this should be quite rare.

Greetz
69Mws

[Rack]

Actually Deactivating "Upper Field First" was enough for me, my DVD's are PAL. I'm assuming you are getting this problem with your standalone DVD when you are trying to view your DVD's on TV. You can experiment with a DVD-RW. If it didn't work for you, try what 69Mws suggested.

Rack.

[-=ViBeZ=-]

Thanx for the response guys. Yes it was interlaced & I tried unchecking th 'top field first' option in docce4u & it didnt solve the problem, is that the same as 'upper field first? Where is the option to set zigzag scanning in docc4u, I cant find it?

[Fmazzanti]

I experienced the exact smae problem a couple of times, and solved it editting the .avs file used by DoCCE. Usually it looks like

LoadPlugin("c:\funny_path\mpeg2dec3.dll")
Mpeg2Source("Your_project.d2v")
ResampleAudio(44100)

last line seems to be needed only if you use an AMD processor as I do.
Well then, you have to put two lines IN BETWEEN and in the EXACT place I'm writting, or it will crash (or better let me say that at least it crashes on my system)

LoadPlugin("c:\funny_path\mpeg2dec3.dll")
LoadPlugin("c:\funny_path_2\decomb.dll")
Mpeg2Source("Your_project.d2v")
Telecide()
ResampleAudio(44100)

where 'funny_path_2' is the path corresponding to decomb.dll. That librery came with my avisynth system.

Now don't shout at me please... I'm aware this is only needed in very few cases when you want to deinterlace, but actually that has worked for me pretty ok whenever I've found your very same problems. Give it a try at least :D

[69Mws]

I'm also dealing with PAL DVDs and from what I got from "studying" several threads here at Doom9, is this:

Source is Top Field First-Interlaced:
- deactivate ZigZag Scanning (same effect as activating Alternate Scanning in version 2.66.01.07)
- DEactivate Upper Field First


Source is Bottom Field First-Interlaced (very rare):
- also deactivate ZigZag Scanning
- ACTIVATE Upper Field First

That's how it always worked out fine for me.

BTW: you can't really believe everything what Tools like Bitrate Viewer tell you about the Frame Structure.....how often did you experience, that Bitrate Viewer told you that a source is interlaced and when you checked it in DVD2AVI you saw, that it was definitly not interlaced? I experienced that quite often, so I never used Bitrate Viewer anymore to adjust my CCE Setting, simply don't need it for my purposes and you can't rely on what Bitrate Viewer tells you.

So from my understanding and experiences a button for (de)activating ZigZag would make sense in DoCCE4U for PAL Users, that know how to deal with it.

Maybe the "trouble" with PAL interlaced can be avoided, by using the FieldDeInterlace Option in DIF4U. That adds Decomb with FieldDeInterlace in the AVS Script, but this should slow down CCE Speed, although I still didn't do any testing with that.... :(

Greetz
69Mws

[-=ViBeZ=-]

Thanx for all the suggestions guys. I finally got this solved with your help & some of the guys over at #doom9

Basically I just selected deinterlace in dif4u on all my extras & now I have it working as intended. It slow down my cce speed slightly but being as they were only short clips i'm happy with that solution.

the avs looked like this

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DoItFast4U\mpeg2dec3.dll")

Mpeg2Source("VTS__02_P02.4~3_1.d2v")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DoItFast4U\decomb.dll")

FieldDeinterlace()

ResampleAudio(44100)


I've noticed that in the registry for DOCCE4U there is a setting to turn on alternate scan. I wonder if this could also be a solution?

Last, but not least - how do you guys detect interlaced video? do you just run it in dvd2avi & scroll through to see if there are any horizontal line in the picture?

[69Mws]

Originally posted by -=ViBeZ=-

I've noticed that in the registry for DOCCE4U there is a setting to turn on alternate scan. I wonder if this could also be a solution?

Last, but not least - how do you guys detect interlaced video? do you just run it in dvd2avi & scroll through to see if there are any horizontal line in the picture?

Yup, that should do it. By deactivating ZigZag in CCE 2.50, you automatically switch to Alternate Scanning.

In CCE 2.66 the interface looks a bit different. There you have to choose by radio-buttons whether you use Alternate Scan or ZigZag.

For my part, yes, I determine it only by having a look in DVD2AVI. But you can't tell by that, whether it's top-field-first interlaced oder bottom-field-first interlaced. But as I mentioned before, bff-interlaced should be very rare. I only experienced one movie 'til now with bff-interlaced picure: German PAL of Natural Born Killers.

There's also a thing, why some tools have problems with recognizing whether PAL material is interlaced or not. Some PAL movies, which are progressive, have a short beginning sequence, which is interlaced. The Warner Brother's Logo at the beginning of some movies is sometimes interlaced, from what I know.

Greetz
69Mws

[-=ViBeZ=-]

Yes I've just done a dvd where only the WB logo was interlaced. lucky for me it was in a different pgc so I just deinterlaced it. I'll try on my next dvd if changing the registry value solves my problem

[mrbass]

Originally posted by 69Mws
I'm also dealing with PAL DVDs and from what I got from "studying" several threads here at Doom9, is this:
BTW: you can't really believe everything what Tools like Bitrate Viewer tell you about the Frame Structure.....how often did you experience, that Bitrate Viewer told you that a source is interlaced and when you checked it in DVD2AVI you saw, that it was definitly not interlaced? I experienced that quite often, so I never used Bitrate Viewer anymore to adjust my CCE Setting, simply don't need it for my purposes and you can't rely on what Bitrate Viewer tells you.


You should always check VTS_0X_2.VOB with Bitrate Viewer and never the first .vob in a VTS set as it'll go based on intro which could very well be interlaced but the main movie would be progressive as well as the other settings would be different than the main movie.

[69Mws]

Originally posted by mrbass
You should always check VTS_0X_2.VOB with Bitrate Viewer and never the first .vob in a VTS set as it'll go based on intro which could very well be interlaced but the main movie would be progressive as well as the other settings would be different than the main movie.

Yup, I know this about not checking the first VOB of a Titleset with Bitrate Viewer, but IMHO it's still not relyable. It shows sometimes strange combinations like "ZigZag Scanning Order" combined with "Interlaced Frame Structure" :confused:

Greetz
69Mws

[waldok]

I always check deinterlace in DIF4U for PAL extras that seem to be interlaced. It always worked fine and doing this, you can leave zigzag checked in CCE and don't care about field order. DoCCE4U works fine like this.
OK, it slows down the encoding a bit, but usually the extras are not that big, so time is not a real issue.

Waldok:cool:

[toolman2k]

why even bother with deinterlacing it ? i mean you can also just leave interlaced...its faster with encoding...and deinterlacing it can only give you a decrease in both speed and quality.doesnt deinterlacing result in ghosting effects ?

[69Mws]

AFAIK Deinterlacing does not have to result automatically in loss of quality.

It may be even more the contrary, 'cause interlaced material needs higher Bitrates for good results, compared to progressive Streams.

The reason for Deinterlacing is, that you don't know exactly at the moment, whether it's top field first or bottom field first, which is important for the proper settings. If you encode a bff-stream with tff-settings, your picture will also be shaky.

Sure, Deinterlacing drops speed quite a lot, but when you just use it on the extras that's not so bad, 'cause the extra stuff is in most cases not so much material to encode like the main movie.

Greetz
69Mws

[Tantabootsy]

But why does this problem only appear on standalones, why not on PCs? I mean I always encoded with CCE using the zigzag-scanning order till now, because it is recommened in the "Getting the Best out.." -guide.
I have neither a standalone nor a TV to test my DVDs (always tested on my buddy's standalones and then mostly only the main movie ..) and on my screen everything looks fine.
Does the problem appear in connection with the standalone or with the TV -are there differences between TVs or does the problem appear with every TV no matter how old it is and so on?
Don't know, I'm afraid now that all my DVDs -and if it would only be the specials- are more or less messed up. PANIC!-) And I now think about buying a standalone just to not run into troubles like that anymore.
Some explanations would be great appreciated!
Thanx,
TB

[Tantabootsy]

Okay, I've found this thread: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=51030
for everyone, who's interested, too.

[waldok]

@toolman2k,

Deinterlacing sure costs some procesing time and sometimes a bit of loss in quality. It is also not necessary with MPEG2 encoding, and even less since final playback occurs on a TV set.

But, as 69mws pointed out, you cqn't always predict field order in extras. Plus, in most cases (DVD 9), you'll have to sacrifice on extras quality anyway in order to preserve main movie quality. So I think deinterlacing is quite acceptable here. It happened to me a few times that the final extras were shaky because of the wrong field order, and I had to check them all one by one, and restart the encoding process for most of them. Considering I run a Celeron 566@850, you will easily understand that I don't want this to happen too often ;)
So I found out I can live with some extra processing time and occasional quality loss since, by deinterlacing, I only have to encode the whole god damn stuff once, without having to check all extras one by one in the end.

Just a matter of being...lazy :D

Waldok:cool:

[69Mws]

BTW: I heard, that it's possible to change the fieldorder with ReStream in the already encoded mpv, but I didn't get to test that so far.

Anyone experiences with that?

Greetz
69Mws

P.S.: hooray, my internet connection is working again... :)

[toolman2k]

Originally posted by waldok
@toolman2k,

Deinterlacing sure costs some procesing time and sometimes a bit of loss in quality. It is also not necessary with MPEG2 encoding, and even less since final playback occurs on a TV set.

But, as 69mws pointed out, you cqn't always predict field order in extras. Plus, in most cases (DVD 9), you'll have to sacrifice on extras quality anyway in order to preserve main movie quality. So I think deinterlacing is quite acceptable here. It happened to me a few times that the final extras were shaky because of the wrong field order, and I had to check them all one by one, and restart the encoding process for most of them. Considering I run a Celeron 566@850, you will easily understand that I don't want this to happen too often ;)
So I found out I can live with some extra processing time and occasional quality loss since, by deinterlacing, I only have to encode the whole god damn stuff once, without having to check all extras one by one in the end.

Just a matter of being...lazy :D

Waldok:cool:

thanks for this info.i knew that interlaced video is also harder to encode...many bits get lost due to the horizontal lines present in a frame due to 2 fields being displayed......i just now tried tombraider 5 pass, keeping it interlaced at 1850...but it sure looks crappy......some people say its can be almost the same as original...but not in my (this) case.i will try again in dif4u with deinterlacing and see how it goes.

[69Mws]

You don't have to repeat the whole process with DIF4U just for deinterlacing.

Just simply edit the already existing AVS Scripts, which you already have.

For deinterlacing only two lines are added.

Something like this:
LoadPlugin("blabla/bla/decomb.dll") --> decomb.dll is somewhere in the installation path of dif4u
FieldDeInterlace() --> put this after the line that loads the source-file

Greetz
69Mws

[toolman2k]

Originally posted by 69Mws
You don't have to repeat the whole process with DIF4U just for deinterlacing.

Just simply edit the already existing AVS Scripts, which you already have.

For deinterlacing only two lines are added.

Something like this:
LoadPlugin("blabla/bla/decomb.dll") --> decomb.dll is somewhere in the installation path of dif4u
FieldDeInterlace() --> put this after the line that loads the source-file

Greetz
69Mws

yes ofcourse.....it is the plugins that do the work..not dif4u:) anyway, i tried it looks alot better now! gosh i couldnt get it to look acceptable in any way keeping it interlaced......but it looks good now:)

[69Mws]

Originally posted by toolman2k
yes ofcourse.....it is the plugins that do the work..not dif4u:)

Sure, but dif4u creates the AVS Scipts with the proper lines for DeInterlacing :) and I understood that you want to repeat the whole process with dif4u just to have these two lines added :)

Greetz
69Mws