the Size predictor for IC I use now [Archive]

MackemX

14th April 2003, 20:02

link (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/backup/prediction.htm)

have fun, any questions just ask

neo_sapien

14th April 2003, 20:53

1. Why are there two fields under black bar and full screen, one for GB and one for MB?

2. Why do you recommend DVDSaveQuality at 1 instead of DVDSaveQuality at 0?

3. Can you explain the risk factor more?

4. How many times has this Prediction Calculator given you 4.37GB movies that were 16:9 1.85 or 4:3?

5. Do you intend to ever add a field for 16:9 2.35 movies?

MackemX

14th April 2003, 21:14

Originally posted by neo_sapien
1. Why are there two fields under black bar and full screen, one for GB and one for MB?

as sometimes IC shows GB aswell as MB, so I thought it better to have both as an option instead of having to calculate either GB or MB

Originally posted by neo_sapien
2. Why do you recommend DVDSaveQuality at 1 instead of DVDSaveQuality at 0?
Because I cannot change the setting to 0 using the settings programs, though if you are comfortable then use regedit. Again for simplicity of use

Originally posted by neo_sapien
3. Can you explain the risk factor more?
If you set it to 100, you risk going over the 4.38gb limit. If you have plenty of extras then this is ok cos you can just use the Oversized correction GUIDE (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/backup/2big.htm) to fix this within 10 mins or so. If it's movie only and not easily corrected set it the risk factor low

Originally posted by neo_sapien
4. How many times has this Prediction Calculator given you 4.37GB movies that were 16:9 1.85 or 4:3?
loads, I've used simliar calculations since Day 1. I always get around 4.35Gb or more now when I size IC up correctly. My best is 4.3818GB which had 2MB to spare and highest has been 4.40Gb and lowest has been 4.33Gb but I like to use a high risk factor cos I can always correct it

This calculator ain't tried and tested, but it's about the best I could do to pass on my excellent results and putting in figures it seems ok

but remember I religously check that IC is correctly stating the sizes (I compare with DVDToolbox or similar) cos even this can have an effect so you still gotta be careful, all that's shown in the other links in the guide HERE (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/ICinfo.htm)

MackemX

14th April 2003, 21:22

Originally posted by neo_sapien

5. Do you intend to ever add a field for 16:9 2.35 movies?

not really as they are only predictable upto certain percentage levels

e.g. Road To Perdition. anything over 75% gave the same results or there about upto 99.90%. It's the extras that disguise the 2.35:1 undersizing at the moment until they fix the black bar issue

I would just use DVD2One/DVD95Copy/DVDShrink for a 2.35:1 as most people have at least another app alongside IC

mrbass

14th April 2003, 22:42

Originally posted by MisterX

Because I cannot change the setting to 0 using the settings programs, though if you are comfortable then use regedit.

Hidden Settings Editor 1.1.2 changes it to DVDSaveQuality to 0. I think it was only the first version that only allowed changes to 1 and not 0.

MackemX

14th April 2003, 22:53

I knew there was one that did it

cheers mrbass, updated guide

neo_sapien

15th April 2003, 10:55

I tested this out with a 4X3 version of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, and the resulting PDI files are 4.13GB. I followed your instructions to the letter.

I really hope that the Pinnacle team is working to fix this. We've been facing this same problem (and screaming about it to their tech support) for what, 2 months now?

MackemX

15th April 2003, 11:05

Hi, can you tell me what your reg settings were?
predicted video sizes when set to what (4.37Gb etc)?
risk factor?
formats?
resulting predicted size setting?

cheers

neo_sapien

15th April 2003, 14:13

DVDAnalyzeMaxRel 10
DVDSaveQuality 0

(IC SET TO 4.37GB)
Menu: 55.34MB (16X9 1.85)
Title 1: 3.63GB (4X3)
Title 2: 12.91MB (4X3)
Title 3: 7.17MB (4X3)
Title 4: 110KB (4X3)
Title 5: 42.41MB (4X3 1.85)
Title 6: 54.63MB (4X3 1.85)

Risk Factor: 50
Resulting Predicted Size Setting: 4.408GB

MackemX

15th April 2003, 22:19

hi neo_sapien,

didn't you say that your reg settings defaulted back when you changed reg settings?

cos the figures you showed there is about right for a 4:3 DVD, just under 4.41 with a 50% risk, I wudda went for 4.43-4.44 :)

with the latest version of IC using a reg setting of 0, if you set the size to anything above 4.45Gb with a 4:3 DVD and you are risking oversizing

I've a funny feeling that the 4.13Gb with yours means your setting has either somewhow defaulted back or ain't even being changed, cos that may explain exactly the 0.24Gb undersize

even a 1.85:1 DVD now only needs something near 4.51-4.55Gb for a DVDSaveQuality of 0 if it's all sized up properly

looking at your figures which is a total 3.80Gb video and assuming it reserved 6% which is 0.228Gb which when added to 4.13 gives 4.358Gb which is what I would expect as you only had a 50% risk factor

but the other factor is you said you set it to 4.80 in your other thread with 7% DVDSaveQuality to get it to fit which is abnormal for a 4:3 believe me

but you mentioned IC reported the incorrect size by too much (0.45GB), so say xx%(whatever you used to fit 4.37GB) of none existent 0.45GB is nothing so this maybe the answer

but it's a shame cos it does work believe me

most people's results with latest version now get on average over 4.10GB with default settings and people who change DVDSaveQuality to 0 dont have to oversize normally any higher than 4.60Gb if IC sees the true size of DVD or they've sniffed out missing MB and adjusted figures accordingly if it is wrong (2.35:1 after a certain percentage are still unpredictable :()

I go nowhere near 4.60GB now for a 1.85:1 anamorphic DVD now so your setting of 4.80Gb to get 4.37Gb in the other thread is well freaky for a 4:3 DVD, but that's obviously down to the 'phantom' 0.45GB you noticed more than the reg settings

shame cos it's great for me, it saves me all the guessing but then again I know IC inside out anyway and have never struggled with sizing since the early days :D

I have told Pinnacle, in this thread HERE (http://webboard.pinnaclesys.com/read_messages.asp?WebboardID=1&ForumID=877&SectionID=170&ThreadID=137159&ThreadStart=0&Pos=19&cntThread=164&lng=1), about the incorrect sizing and even gave them a link for DVDToolbox to show them how naff IC is at guessing 'true' video/audio title sizes

In that thread I also gave them a DVD I created were IC reported the 2 titles at 54kb each, yet both were 99MB each :eek:, and Josh has forwarded the info & the DVD onto the relevant guys at Pinnacle :)

so hopefully the next update will have better original estimated video/audio sizes and 'phantom' mb fix aswell as the better resulting filesizes due to black content and the sooner the better :)

neo_sapien

16th April 2003, 13:53

I believe the reg settings thing was fixed a few days ago. I reinstalled IC and the updates. I can confirm that regedit now states DVDSaveQuality is 0 even after a round of compression, as does Instanttool and InstantCopy Hidden Settings Editor, so it's fixed now, and was fixed when I did the Harry Potter 1 (4X3) test.

You're misunderstanding me somewhat. The 4.80GB IC run was on a widescreen 2.35 16:9 Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, while this 4.4GB run was on a 4X3 version of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Two different DVDs, two very different AR's.

This 4X3 undersizing can't be attributed to an incorrect DVDSaveQuality setting.

Scarpad

16th April 2003, 21:20

Bottom Line we should'nt have to jump thru these many hoops to get the program to uilize the full disk. They have to base the estimation on something else.

neo_sapien

16th April 2003, 21:50

I agree, I dislike this hoop jumping.

MackemX

16th April 2003, 23:49

regardless of anything else that result tells me you would now need to add at least 0.24(0.26 probably) to 4.40Gb to get 4.37, which would be 4.66Gb, which is not normal at all, those 4.65Gb days have gone if you have a DVDSaveQuality of 0

for a 4:3 even anything over 4.50Gb is abnormal if IC is checked and setup & working right. Not even a 1.85:1 anamorhpic undersizes that much now unless there is something else to blame that ain't been sniffed out

but like I said if it don't work for you, it don't work :(

exaggerated example.
I set it to 50% of a total of 8GB that IC tells me, I ignore that and use 50% of what DVDToolbox tells me (6GB) not IC cos we all know how useless IC is

IC will still try to compress it to 50%(3Gb) even if it says it's 8GB and 60% of that is 4Gb, so it's overestimating by 1GB

It works to percentages not the estimations so it's easy to control, so I guess that's why I'll stick with it cos it's easy to control for me

p.s. once you know how to jump through the hoops it ain't that hard :D
cos it's the engine thats to blame not the estimation as it doesn't realise how much it can actually save on dark content but that's easily compensated if you clart on enough

JFerguson

20th July 2003, 20:09

Originally posted by neo_sapien
DVDAnalyzeMaxRel 10
DVDSaveQuality 0

(IC SET TO 4.37GB)
Menu: 55.34MB (16X9 1.85)
Title 1: 3.63GB (4X3)
Title 2: 12.91MB (4X3)
Title 3: 7.17MB (4X3)
Title 4: 110KB (4X3)
Title 5: 42.41MB (4X3 1.85)
Title 6: 54.63MB (4X3 1.85)

Risk Factor: 50
Resulting Predicted Size Setting: 4.408GB

Hey, I've been reading this thread and will be trying to take a shot at using the calculator.

A question. How does neo_sapien get the precise aspect ratios (e.g. 1.85) above. Is there software that echoes this?

mpucoder

20th July 2003, 20:31

Aspect ratio is usually stated on the box. If not, you can check www.imdb.com for "dvd details" about any movie.

JFerguson

21st July 2003, 18:59

mpucoder,

I knew about the back of box, but not IMDB. Thanks.

But neither source will give as much detail as neo_sapien listed, so where does he get that from?

snowcrash

21st July 2003, 19:50

I'm about to give up on IC7. I have two movies that I've been trying to back up, movie-only. So I ran them through DVDShrink and removed everything but the main movie. Then I fed them to IC7. Here's what I got:

Spirited Away (1.85:1)
setting/result (GB)
4.75 / 3.72
5.20 / 3.72

Barton Fink (1.66:1)
setting/result (GB)
4.77 / 3.83
5.37 / 3.83

So it seems no matter what I set the size slider to, I end up with the same undersized result. Has anyone else seen this behavior?

I also tried doing Barton Fink from the original DVD and just deselecting everything but the main movie in IC7. Then I got this:

setting/result (GB)
4.77 / 3.90

I have a feeling even if I go higher I'm still gonna end up with 3.90 GB again. <sigh>

JFerguson

22nd July 2003, 00:30

snowcrash,

I think it's been documented (and field tested by many!) that InstantCopy will not give predictable results for certain types of films.

This is why I have been resurrecting this thread with questions regarding identifying film types.

I did Groundhog Day a coupla days ago and IC nailed the size within .02GB.

I did some other films, and saw results like yours.

Hopefully, someone can chime in here and give us some info on prequalifying movies for IC so we won't even bother when it simply won't work.

Dre

22nd July 2003, 01:49

Originally posted by snowcrash
I'm about to give up on IC7. I have two movies that I've been trying to back up, movie-only. So I ran them through DVDShrink and removed everything but the main movie. Then I fed them to IC7. Here's what I got:

Spirited Away (1.85:1)
setting/result (GB)
4.75 / 3.72
5.20 / 3.72

Barton Fink (1.66:1)
setting/result (GB)
4.77 / 3.83
5.37 / 3.83

So it seems no matter what I set the size slider to, I end up with the same undersized result. Has anyone else seen this behavior?

I have the same problem with Bourne Identity Region 1. I deleted all the soundtracks except Dolby 5.1 and it will only let me go up to 4.29GB. I even made the main movie 100%.

JFerguson

22nd July 2003, 06:39

Ok, some questions:

1) From my earlier post:

But neither source will give as much detail as neo_sapien listed, so where does he get that from?

2) I gave the spreadsheet a try on one of my DVDs, "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" (Full Screen). Here's some data:

Col #1    Col #2              Col #3      Col #4
Title     Size (DVDToolBox)   Size (IC)   Size (IC Predicted) / %
-------   -----------------   ---------   -----------------------
Menus     na                  32.74MB     32.74MB / 30%
Title 1   6.747               6.62        3.70 / 55.93% 
Title 2   0.007               7.43MB      7.43MB / 100%
Title 3   0.003               3.25MB      3.25MB / 100%
Title 4   0.003               224KB       224KB / 100%
Title 5   0.000               3.43MB      3.43MB / 100%
Title 6   0.218               223MB       66.78MB / 30%
Title 7   0.004               4.89MB      4.89MB / 100%
Title 8   0.004               4.68MB      4.68MB / 100%

Note: significant differences in size reported between DVDToolBox and IC for Titles 1, 4, 5. Titles 4 and 5 look reversed between the two programs - weird.

Need some clarification on the procedure - here's what I did:
1. Adjusted percentages of Menus and other extras (there's not many) down to 30% where possible.
2. Entered Col #2 values into column G (FULL SCREEN - GB) of the spreadsheet.
3. C7 value in spreadsheet = 4.440, for C4-C6 (IC Predicts, DVDSaveQuality, Risk Factor) values of 4.37, 0, 50.
4. Adjusted percentage in IC for Title 1 to 55.93% to yield estimated data size of 4.43GB (slider wouldn't do 4.44GB).
5. Ran IC.
6. IC generates 4.27GB of .pdi files.

Did I do this correctly? I tried to follow MackemX's instructions but get confused at times. Thanks...

MackemX

22nd July 2003, 12:07

Originally posted by snowcrash
I'm about to give up on IC7. I have two movies that I've been trying to back up, movie-only. So I ran them through DVDShrink and removed everything but the main movie. Then I fed them to IC7. Here's what I got:

Spirited Away (1.85:1)
setting/result (GB)
4.75 / 3.72
5.20 / 3.72

Barton Fink (1.66:1)
setting/result (GB)
4.77 / 3.83
5.37 / 3.83

So it seems no matter what I set the size slider to, I end up with the same undersized result. Has anyone else seen this behavior?

I also tried doing Barton Fink from the original DVD and just deselecting everything but the main movie in IC7. Then I got this:

setting/result (GB)
4.77 / 3.90

I have a feeling even if I go higher I'm still gonna end up with 3.90 GB again. <sigh>

this is probably why

http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/backup/sizing.htm

just doing movie only with IC is mainly hit n miss as it aint got much to work with reagrding accuracy and 2.35:1 movies (unless its really long and large) just will not reach 4.37Gb even at 99.99%

MackemX

22nd July 2003, 12:14

Originally posted by JFerguson
Ok, some questions:

1) From my earlier post:

2) I gave the spreadsheet a try on one of my DVDs, "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" (Full Screen). Here's some data:

Col #1    Col #2              Col #3      Col #4
Title     Size (DVDToolBox)   Size (IC)   Size (IC Predicted) / %
-------   -----------------   ---------   -----------------------
Menus     na                  32.74MB     32.74MB / 30%
Title 1   6.747               6.62        3.70 / 55.93% 
Title 2   0.007               7.43MB      7.43MB / 100%
Title 3   0.003               3.25MB      3.25MB / 100%
Title 4   0.003               224KB       224KB / 100%
Title 5   0.000               3.43MB      3.43MB / 100%
Title 6   0.218               223MB       66.78MB / 30%
Title 7   0.004               4.89MB      4.89MB / 100%
Title 8   0.004               4.68MB      4.68MB / 100%

Note: significant differences in size reported between DVDToolBox and IC for Titles 1, 4, 5. Titles 4 and 5 look reversed between the two programs - weird.

Need some clarification on the procedure - here's what I did:
1. Adjusted percentages of Menus and other extras (there's not many) down to 30% where possible.
2. Entered Col #2 values into column G (FULL SCREEN - GB) of the spreadsheet.
3. C7 value in spreadsheet = 4.440, for C4-C6 (IC Predicts, DVDSaveQuality, Risk Factor) values of 4.37, 0, 50.
4. Adjusted percentage in IC for Title 1 to 55.93% to yield estimated data size of 4.43GB (slider wouldn't do 4.44GB).
5. Ran IC.
6. IC generates 4.27GB of .pdi files.

Did I do this correctly? I tried to follow MackemX's instructions but get confused at times. Thanks... you did everything right apart from using the IC sizes. I have shown that IC cannot report the correct sizes of titles and requested on their boards previous to the last update they fix this to help sizing but still no luck :(

so use the DVDToolbox sizes as it gives more accurate results and in this case probably would have gave a closer result to 4.37Gb

I'm not so sure the calculator would work anymore with the new update anyway and I aint really used the new version that much to get an idea of whats going on

you can get 4.44Gb on the slider bar, just get the main movie title and the click the slider bar but then use the arrow keys for 0.1% increments :)

mpucoder

22nd July 2003, 14:53

Just a sarcastic jab at IC, something I've had to restrain all these months. Is it truly a one-click application if you need a speadsheet and pocket calculator to get it to work?

Allistah

23rd July 2003, 05:16

**cough** DVDShrink v2.3 **cough** ;-)

snowcrash

23rd July 2003, 05:35

*cough* lower quality *cough* especially for bigger movies *cough*

voo_doo99

23rd July 2003, 17:44

Originally posted by mpucoder
Just a sarcastic jab at IC, something I've had to restrain all these months. Is it truly a one-click application if you need a speadsheet and pocket calculator to get it to work?

Well, it's a question of "click, click, click NOW" or "click,...hours...click,...hours...click LATER" :D

JFerguson

23rd July 2003, 23:43

Originally posted by MackemX
you did everything right apart from using the IC sizes. I have shown that IC cannot report the correct sizes of titles and requested on their boards previous to the last update they fix this to help sizing but still no luck :(

so use the DVDToolbox sizes as it gives more accurate results and in this case probably would have gave a closer result to 4.37Gb

Actually, I did use the DVDToolbox sizes -- that was probably hard to pick out with my crude table... :)

Originally posted by MackemX
I'm not so sure the calculator would work anymore with the new update anyway and I aint really used the new version that much to get an idea of whats going on

Yeah, I'm having some trouble using it, mostly from not knowing when something's letterbox versus black bars versus widescreen etc etc. :(

I'm switched to using your record.xls spreadsheet now, I'll write about that in a moment... ;)

Originally posted by MackemX
you can get 4.44Gb on the slider bar, just get the main movie title and the click the slider bar but then use the arrow keys for 0.1% increments :)

Did not know that - thanks!

JFerguson

24th July 2003, 00:36

Ok, some comments from a newbie DVD archiver, who's been reading a lot of material in this forum as of late:

1) Yes, it seems that this program InstantCopy can be kind of a pain to work with. However, I've been getting some very accurate results from it with certain types of DVDs.

I'm still trying to figure out how to identify these certain types up front; a couple of us have asked, so if anyone wants to take this one, please do!

2) Yes, DVDShrink is pretty cool. I use it for these type of DVDs:
. ones where there's wide/full on the same disc (I set full to Still Pictures, and that's often enough to get a fit!)
. ones where I don't have to compress the movie beyond 15-20%

I'm using the 15-20% as a rule of thumb based on comments in the forum regarding DVDShrink versus InstantCopy quality.

Although, I did do "The Ring" the other day at like 30% and I think it looked pretty good on my big screen TV. Not a relative comparison, though -- just an impression.

3) For DVDs where compression exceeds 15-20%, I'll try InstantCopy (I got it free at Amazon).

I've read a lot of good material regarding usage at both Mr. Bass's and MackemX's site. Thanks guys! Although, I do get a little lost at MackemX's site sometimes - he's got so many links and so much information there! ;)

I was trying to use the procedure that MackemX posted in this thread with some mixed results. I did try something else today, though.

MackemX has this record.xls spreadsheet for analyzing usage trials with InstantCopy. I ran "Catch Me If You Can" through IC and got an overage. So, I plunked the data into this spreadsheet and I'm trying the new ratio that it recommends to size the image down. InstantCopy is working on it as I type this -- I'll let you know how it goes.

Note: I'm using data from DVDToolBox to fill this spreadsheet, not InstantCopy's data.

Admittingly, re-running IC will get old. I'm also playing with interrupting IC early in its processing to see if I can guess the final size based on what it builds, say after 10% of processing. I'd bet someone else has tried this before - we'll see what comes of that.

Kind of a pain, but everything's evolving and improving, so hopefully it's all short-term.