Encoding/Transcoding: Movie Only Quality

[jzaman]

Over the past six months I have purchased Dvd2One,Dvd95Copy, DVDXcopy, and IC. I have also worked with DVDtoolbox and DvdShrink. Before that I worked with Ulead DVD Toolbox and Adobe Premiere. With all these choices I am narrowing down my sights to the best looking single disk movie only solution. I know that is is extremely subjective but I'm asking for opinions anyway. Given a final size of 4.37gb for movie only (6.5 gb for a movie before processing): Is there any clear winner for visual quality?

[MackemX]

I say IC (If CCE is a breeze for you, use that for the larger stuff), but that's my opinion and others may agree or disagree as everyone has their own standards of what they regard as best quality and different means of viewing (see sig)

one the rules say you can't ask which is best cos stuff like this causes disagreements :)

but seeing as I'm in 1st I'm not disagreeing with anyone :D

[muralin]

use dvd toolbox to filter out the extras and unneeded audio & subtitle streams and then feed the movie to IC to shrink.

[jzaman]

Muralin and MisterX:

The encoding prowess of IC is impressive but the hard work to bring it to size is a dice roll. For example, after splitting GRAY ZONE with DVDtoolbox I had the following:

Directory of D:\Gray_Zone\DVDToolbox\Disc1\VIDEO_TS

04/14/2003 07:07 PM 8,192 VIDEO_TS.BUP
04/14/2003 07:07 PM 8,192 VIDEO_TS.IFO
04/14/2003 07:07 PM 65,536 VTS_01_0.BUP
04/14/2003 07:07 PM 65,536 VTS_01_0.IFO
04/14/2003 07:04 PM 1,073,739,776 VTS_01_1.VOB
04/14/2003 07:05 PM 1,073,739,776 VTS_01_2.VOB
04/14/2003 07:05 PM 1,073,739,776 VTS_01_3.VOB
04/14/2003 07:06 PM 1,073,739,776 VTS_01_4.VOB
04/14/2003 07:06 PM 1,073,739,776 VTS_01_5.VOB
04/14/2003 07:07 PM 1,073,739,776 VTS_01_6.VOB
04/14/2003 07:07 PM 552,271,872 VTS_01_7.VOB
12 File(s) 6,994,857,984 bytes
2 Dir(s) 83,369,308,160 bytes free

After passing it through IC 7.02 and burning I had the following:

Directory of E:\VIDEO_TS

04/15/2003 04:21 PM 8,192 VIDEO_TS.BUP
04/15/2003 04:21 PM 8,192 VIDEO_TS.IFO
04/15/2003 05:30 PM 65,536 VTS_01_0.BUP
04/15/2003 04:21 PM 65,536 VTS_01_0.IFO
04/15/2003 04:40 PM 1,073,739,776 VTS_01_1.VOB
04/15/2003 04:57 PM 1,073,739,776 VTS_01_2.VOB
04/15/2003 05:16 PM 1,073,739,776 VTS_01_3.VOB
04/15/2003 05:26 PM 610,830,336 VTS_01_4.VOB
8 File(s) 3,832,197,120 bytes
2 Dir(s) 0 bytes free


This should have been a sizing nobrainer even for IC.(DVD2one and DVD95copy correctly sized it). I can understand it if there were extras, etc. but...

As I said earlier, I'm looking for best quality movie-only which shouldn't involve any algebraic tweaks. Yes..full movie does require more massaging but movie-only should be hands off.

P.S. Thanks for your feedback in this "controversial" post. I guess I'll have to wait for this class of software to mature.:)

[MackemX]

'Gray Zone' :confused:, it isn't a 2.35:1 aspect ratio by any chance is it? :D (read this HERE (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/backup/sizing.htm) )

p.s. IC size predicting is a stroll in the park for some now

[monomer]

Most of my 'strolls' are with 2.35 stuff and I keep getting 'mugged' strolling through the IC park. As far as I'm concerned, movie only, 2.35 A.R. is almost a pure guessing game with IC (which often ends up consuming 6+ hours to get an acceptable final file size).

Acceptable for me is between 4.15Gb and 4.38Gb
P.S. when I tried 'Grey Zone' skin tones were 'blotchy' in IC and DVD21 had the movie going in and out of focus which made it completely un-enjoyable to watch. I finally just did a 1:1 split across two discs. Anyway, that's my recommendation.

[jzaman]

monomer:
You are correct. When the movie size is over 6gb then a split is normally indicated. In the meantime, I'll hang out in the waiting room..waiting for the authors of all these pioneer fast copy programs to hone their encoding and transcoding routines. I'm sure there are more tricks up their sleeves.

[MackemX]

Originally posted by monomer
Most of my 'strolls' are with 2.35 stuff and I keep getting 'mugged' strolling through the IC park. As far as I'm concerned, movie only, 2.35 A.R. is almost a pure guessing game with IC (which often ends up consuming 6+ hours to get an acceptable final file size). 'mugged' :D, funny

on most of my experiences anything over 70% with a 2.35 is when it starts to get dodgy

normally I would've used the extras to fix sizing but now if it's got a few extras then I do the extras in IC 1st and the menu/movie with DVD95Copy afterwards

p.s. jzaman was it 2.35:1 by the way?, have you got the option of using CCE?

[jzaman]

MisterX:
I guess I could use CCE Basic or DV capture the audio/video stream but that is too much work. Whether a movie is 2.35:1 or not I can still lazily get a movie-only with DVD2One at the correct size. If I could plant the CCE Basic or IC encoding engine into DVD2One then I would have the perfect lazy user interface. This is not said to detract from your excellent guides and guides of others such as 2cool that bridge the gap in these programs. I just want my Movie Only Utopia. Is that asking for too much? :)

Movie Only Utopia:
(1) Rip DVD in file mode.
(2) Point program to it.
(3) Select movie only and sound tracks
(4) Select encoding/transcoding duration (30,60,90 minutes)
(5) Burn 4.37gb disk

[MedicineMan]

Why don't you try DVD2DVD-R (www.dvd2dvd-r.de). It allows you to select the main movie file; the languages and subtitles you want; and if needed CCE does the encoding automatically. It's almost a one-click solution.

[MackemX]

yep I agree MedicineMan, cos that's what I used to set it all up with minimal effort

personally I used to hijack DVD2DVDR during the CCE bit and then adjust settings myself using the same advanced method as the CCE guide on this site, though it wasn't necessary

then rebuild it all back together myself cos for movie only it's quite easy for most DVD's

[jzaman]

MedicineMan and MisterX:

Never worked with DVD2DVDR. I think I'll give it a try. Thanks for the advice!

[jzaman]

MedicineMan and MisterX:
Took your advice on trying DVD2DVD-R for 6.5+ gb movies.
(CCE Basic 2.67.01.09, DVD2DVD-R 1.47, and ImgTool 1.00.4 with Nero 5.5.10.20 API)

I created a Grey Zone movie only DVD with forcefilm and 2:3 pulldown checked and it ended up at 4.34 gb which is full enough for me. It took about 2.5 hours but it does look very good. I can't figure out how to get an English manual unless I learn German and translate.

I am going to screen this movie with discerning eyes other than mine and compare the visual quality of CCE/DVD2DVD-R, Dvd2one, Dvd95Copy, IC and DVDxcopy movie-only copies. I'll do the same with Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones to get another reference point. After that I'll get drunk and they'll all look the same...:confused:

P.S. Both Grey Zone and Star Wars:Attack of the Clones sized to 4.34 gb without any tweaking. Takes longer than IC but it sizes more reliably so far.

[monomer]

2.5hours? WOW, jzaman...
...what are you running 'under the hood'?

The combination of DVD2DVD-R and CCE-Basic is now my new replacement for IC! I just tried it out on "Out Of Sight" (~5.4Gb movie only) and it took 3hours and 20 minutes (including the 2X Nero burn). That's about the same with IC, because with any 2.35 'movie only' I can never get the right file size the first time with IC and sometimes it'll take 3 or 4 or even 5 tries to get between 4.18Gb and 4.38Gb (I will no longer accept anything less). Each run through IC takes ~ 1.5hours and another 30minutes to burn it. So 2 runs in IC = 3.5hours total. BTW, I'm running an AMD 2000+XP, 512 DDR, Win XP Pro (with some 'tweaks' to the CPU and memory speeds).

jzaman... how did you go about donating to the DVD2DVD-R folks? I'm afraid to try the 'donation' button on their website, since it's all in German and I don't speak a 'lick' of it.

[Grover]

Originally posted by monomer
2.5hours?

jzaman... how did you go about donating to the DVD2DVD-R folks? I'm afraid to try the 'donation' button on their website, since it's all in German and I don't speak a 'lick' of it.


I don't speak much German either but this seems to work OK.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dvd2dvd-r.de&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools


Ich bin ein DVD2DVDR mit user..... :)

[jzaman]

monomer:

2.5 hours was for the Grey Zone which didn't include 15 minutes for the burn (4x). Star Wars: Attack of the Clones took 3 hours. I have a computer lab so to speak. My first (audio/video) machine has a p4 2.66 with a gb of rdram, geforce4 video, two 100gb hard drives and a 480gb raid0 hard drive array. My second (audio/video) has a p4 3.06 with a gb of pc3200 ddr, a 120 and 180gb hd, and a Radeon 9500. My third (music server)has a P4 2.80 with a gb of pc3200 ddr, 100 gb hd, and a geforce 3. My fourth (game machine) has an Athlon 2200+ with 512mb pc3200 ddr, Matrox Parhelia, and 100 gb hd. My fifth (file server) has a p4 2.4 with 1.5 gb pc133 ram, geforce 3, and removable hard drives. All machines except for the file server have a pioneer dvr-105 and pioneer dvd-117. I hand built all of them and all run on Winxp pro sp1 NTFS except for the file server which runs whatever op system I swap into it. Having all this stuff allows me to test all the crap I've collected. Since October I've purchased Dvdxcopy, dvd2one, dvd95copy,IC, CCE Basic and proferred donations for Imgtool, DVDToolbox, and recently DVD2DVD-R. I also do DV/Analog captures through Canopus advc-100 units into Ulead DVD Toolbox which started me off on this after hours kick. During the day I manage a Computer operation that is not in the Audio\Video field.

I, like you, can not read German so I had to guess on what to do. Since I previously setup a paypal account to pay the rightful dues to these overlooked authors, I clicked the paypal icon in the donation section and typed in my paypal login name and password. I donated in euros and the author sent me a reg code that bears my name. I like it so far so I'll run anything with a movie 6 gb+ through it until it gives me grief.

[monomer]

Grover thanks for the excellent website translation... I didn't know google could do that.
I succeeded in giving a donation for this amazing program through Paypal and I found an English section in their forum... For anyone interested just go here: http://www.dvd2dvd-r.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=eBoard&file=forumdisplay&fid=13
I will inquire about either the existence of or a future creation of an English version of the manual.

And jzaman... you've got quite the collection of computers. Your slowest system is far faster than my best. Consider me suitably impressed... and envious. One question though... I figured out why you selected ForceFilm... (when I didn't I experienced combing 'big time') but why did you select 2:3 pulldown?

[jzaman]

Originally posted by monomer
One question though... I figured out why you selected ForceFilm... (when I didn't I experienced combing 'big time') but why did you select 2:3 pulldown?

I'm not sure if I made the right decision but forum discussions from heavy CCE users suggested that it is more efficient and it also covers all the bases if it is truly needed. Both Grey Zone and Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones played correctly in both my progressive and regular standalones with near original quality. Do I leave that off, quality control it, and then redo it with that option if it is needed? That would potentially create a six hour process per movie. What are the negatives of enabling 2:3 pulldown as a default?

P.S. I'm doing Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones again with 2:3 pulldown unselected to examine any differences.

Epilog: After redoing it without pulldown enabled it did not freeze when I skipped (with my remote) from scene to scene on a standalone I tried both on after I made this post. I guess I need to be careful about randomly selecting the pulldown option!

[jzaman]

Just a follow up to DVD2Dvd-R and CCE Basic:

I went with all the CCE defaults encoding Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones except I also enabled Force Film. By default progressive frames, linear quantizer scale,zigzag scanning order and upper field first were enabled. I need to get more detail about these defaults and the pulldown option. Does anyone have a link or guide I could refer to?


P.S. I consider the DVD2DVR-2/CCE Basic combo to be a "One click DVD backup solution".

[monomer]

jzaman...
I first tried ForceFilm-unchecked and got really bad 'combing'. I next tried ForceFilm-checked only and the resulting movie played perfectly in both my computer and in my Sony stand-alone player (non-progressive). Then I tried ForceFilm-checked and 2:3 pulldown-checked... the results were choppy stuttering in my computer's player (don't know about my STB because I didn't burn this one). Finally, I tried ForceFilm-checked, 2:3-checked, and flag progressive-checked and got really bad stuttering using my computer's player. If you have some time and decide to try this experiment also I'd be very interested in your outcome.
BTW, Chatwalker (the DVD2DVD-R guy) e-mailed me to say, "Not at this time. The german manual is also rather old and not up to date. Sorry." I guess this means a lot of 'trial-n-error' type learning ahead.

Just read your last posting... my defaults keep changing with each movie I try... in 3 movies, I've had 3 different sets of defaults checked.

[jzaman]

monomer:
The safest bet so far with cce basic/dvd2dvd-r is to go with all the defaults and manually enable Force Film. I posted the following on some cce oriented areas:

I am using CCE Basic with the DVD2DVD-R front end.(CCE Basic 2.67.01.09, DVD2DVD-R 1.47, and ImgTool 1.00.4 with Nero 5.5.10.20 API). I need to get more detail on the following options:

Progressive frames
Linear quantizer scale
Zigzag scanning order
Upper field first
Force Film
2:3 pulldown
Set Drop frame Flag
Set Progressive Flag
Picture Complexity

Can anyone help me or point me to where I should go?

[MackemX]

I learnt all about the settings from this guide and used Bitrate viewer to get info about the video

the info you need is a little way down and it helps you decide on what settings to use

http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/cce-advanced.htm

[jzaman]

MisterX:
You must literally live in these forums.

In the guide it states "If you have an NTSC movie you've most likely encoded it at 23.976 and will find that no authoring program will accept your video stream. This is because the stream has the wrong framerate. Use pulldown.exe...". I am only working with NTSC movies so it suggests that I should always enable the 2:3 pulldown option. However, when I do my player compatibility success rate drops. For example, with pulldown enabled I can't skip from scene to scene with my remote (Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones) without a freeze on my Sony DAV-c700. Another thing that puzzles me is how the DVD2DVD-R package predicts the correct defaults without a Bitrate viewer,etc. Apparently the movie is studied since the settings change from movie to movie and min and max bit rates are pre-selected. I know that IFOedit,dvd2avi, and avisynth are integrated into it. Is the analysis routine built into DVD2DVD-R? By default I never see pulldown selected or Force film selected. However, I manually select Force Film or the output sucks. Also Image Quality priority is recommended at 5 while the default for Picture Complexity is 2. Is Image Quality Priority the same as Picture Complexity? I still have a lot of questions the guide can't answer but at least it's a starting point. Thanks for your help.

[monomer]

MrX... thanks for the 'lead' , lotsa good info there...

I was thinking along the same lines as jzaman. I assume there must be a 'bitrate viewer' type of program incorporated within DVD2DVD-R because it seems to select the appropriate options for each movie (with the exception of ForceFilm). BTW, if I select 2:3, the finished movie will play in PowerDVD but freeze in ZoomPlayer (using the Sonic video filter) if I try to 'jump' using the time-line. This must be similar to what's happening with jzaman when using his stand-alone.

This truely is a 'one-click' solution. Sorry MrX, but I'm going to 'mothball' IC until they can get the 'final file size' issue fixed. The only advantage it has over this DVD2DVD-R/CCE Basic combo is faster speed, which is negated by the fact that I have to run it 2 or more times to size the finished movie correctly. So far I've done 3 movies (Hamlet, Out of Sight, Femme Fatale) and achieved final sizes of either 4.34GB or 4.33Gb ...that's pretty darn good.
All I do is: select source (straight from the disc... encrypted and all) and destination (should have at least 16Gb free available), 'click off' any subtitles, check ForceFilm and click GO... that's it! Couldn't be any easier. I come back 3 or 4 hours later and burn with Nero.

So my new rules for doing back-ups are... if 'movie only' is under 4.38Gb I do an ISO read/write (courtesy of DVD Decrypter)... if under 5.4Gb I use DVD21 after ripping in file mode with DVD Decrypter... if larger than 6.4Gb I do a 1:1 split across 2 discs (DVD Decrypter/DVDToolBox)... and if in-between I use the DVD2DVD-R/CCE Basic combo.

jzaman... how did 'Grey Zone' turn out? (If I remember right the movie only was 6.59Gb. Maybe I'll move up the 'break' point where I do the 1:1 split to 2 discs.)

[jzaman]

monomer:
Grey Zone is excellent with DVD2DVD-R/CCE Basic. If you try it tell me what you think. SW2:Attack of the Clones is close to 7gb and it looks perfect after processing. It comes so close to DVDxcopy on 2 disks (except for omitted extras) that it may be what I use exclusively when the movie exceeds 6gb. Still too soon to tell.

In your post, you state that you go directly from disk. How is it getting decrypted? Anyway...no matter what, I use DVD Decrypter in file mode so I can determine the best route to take and I have the files immediately at hand for an alternate approach.

[MackemX]

it's one great tool along with CCE and I will on occasions use it for the big boy's DVD's or if I cannot get a satifactory result using IC7 or anything else (which is rare fortunately :))

you don't have to say your sorry for using the best option for yourself :o

I did AOTC with CCE and it's brilliant, but I also did it with IC and although ever so slightly inferior it is very very minimal as the pic still looks stunningly sharp and clear on my TV and the difference is absolutely miniscule

movie only's are simple enough for CCE and the best option for quality and sizing :)
1

DVD2DVD-R rips the files direct from the DVD, there is no need to use DVDDecrypter but the choice is yours

[monomer]

jzaman...
Yes, DVD2DVD-R will decrypt right from the disc! Maybe it incorporates its own DeCSS routine (or maybe it looks for DVD Decrypter on my system)... I don't know but it does decrypt though it seems to take a bit longer. Give it a try. This is really a 'one-click' DVD back-up solution, especially since it also rips and decrypts.

[MackemX]

Originally posted by jzaman
MisterX:
You must literally live in these forums.
I'm on the sick at the moment with a bad back, so I'm a bit housebound so that's why I'm forever floating about :(

I've got a few access points around the house and my main PC is on 24/7 and stored away in the cupboard and then using a wireless keyboard/mouse along with my crystal clear Sony TV I can just flick the TV channel over to check emails when I hear one has arrived. It also has picture in picture which is a bonus

or just flick on a monitor instead

[monomer]

MrX...
Both me and the wife have recently gotten over 'bad backs' and I also am just recovering from a bout with sciatica... I feel for you... hope you get better soon! Sure is 'tough' gettin' old...

[jzaman]

For folks who are ailing..you both have a great sense of humor and intelligence, too. I'm reasonably healthy as of late but my wife claims to be a "computer widow". Gotta go...she's a callin'

[MackemX]

'computer widow' :D

[atreides93]

This is an interesting thread. If you'd just read through the guides on this web site, you'd have avoided some of the mistakes you made...especially related to using DVD FORCE FILM....like when to use it and when not to use it.

Its interesting seeing you guys go through the learning process :)

[jzaman]

(deleted)

[jzaman]

Thanks to MisterX, MedicineMan, and monomer for all the feedback. All of the "Oneclick DVD backup solutions" have their pros and cons. Some require more work, some require more time, some require more time and work. I've struggled with the cce basic\dvd2dvd-r approach but now I can verify the options I should use with Bitrate Viewer. The defaults are generally correct. It is a great tool for 6.5 gb or higher movie only backups. Dvd2one is in a league by itself for speed and stability. DVD95Copy is a ever evolving full disk backup program with a dedicated author who responds quickly to users. IC is a smart full disk backup program with near cce quality that only suffers in size calculations. DvdXcopy creates an unaltered two disk backup. DVDToolbox and DVDSchrink replace or augment these approaches. To each his own...

[MedicineMan]

Maybe we could convince one of the mods to start a new forum on this subject. I've been using DVD2DVD-R for almost 3 months, without a problem (living in Europe, i use it on PAL movies, so it's easier). And yes, i have been trying all the other programs, but keep disliking them. The quality of CCE is just great. And yes, i do movies that start at 7Gb (just been doing JFK Directors CUT, and it works great).

As you say, the DVD2DVD-R site has a forum with a English section, but it isn't very lively. The best forums i know are the Doom9 forums. Do you think we could start a new section here (and of course tell Chatwalker about it).


Sincerely


MedicineMan

[SkoalWintergreen]

my advice would be learn CCE there is no substitute, and the ease of use has increased with the new tools, the guides seem a little confusing untill you start to try it, their really is no better way, it seems like a lot but it's really not, and in the long run the quality will be well worth your time, I goto school at a major university get decent grades, run track for the same school, have a girlfriend, and still get drunk most friday's and saturday's and I've still find time to copy well over 150 movies CCE method in the last year :) it's worth it for that day I graduate and get my phat plasma screen, and I have the kickest ass movie collection!