Toolame 112 kbs

[symonjfox]

Hi, it's a long time I use Toolame for my svcds, but just now I noted one thing.

I tried several times to encode 48000 hz, 16 bit, stereo waves to 112 kbs, 48000 hz, JOINT STEREO with toolame.

I ALWAYS got an output of 112 kbs, 48000 hz, STEREO (not joint st.).

This will appends just using 112 kbs, while using 96 or 128 the output is ok.

I tried also the VBR and I analized the output file, and it still is JOINT STEREO.

Does anybody know anything about it?

[frank]

How did you analyze it?
WinAmp doesn't say the truth.

Maybe you should ask Mike Cheng. :)

[symonjfox]

Yes, I used Winamp.

Then when analizing audio for multiplexing (SVCD, using bbmpeg), it's shown Audio type = 0 Stereo ... not 1 Joint Stereo (or something similar, I don't remember ...)

And also when creating the image using VCDEASY, analizing the mpeg it shown STEREO, not JSTEREO.

I tried everything, just using Toolame or Besweet, 48000 hz, 112 kbs, it creates STEREO files, also when selecting JOINT STEREO.

Try yourself

[frank]

Maybe that only headers differ? My experience is that WinAmp has a problem with mp2 mode display. But all my MP2 encoded files produced excellent sound. I use 44.1 kHz, 192 stereo, 160 joint stereo.

Attention!
48 kHz VBR uses STEREO mode only, and the header is patched to 112 kb/s. Other settings are ignored.

Look at http://mikecheng.d2.net.au/
There is a new version tooLame 0.2l and much information on Mike Cheng' site.

[symonjfox]

From VBR.html in Toolame0.2l.tgz

Why can't the bitrate vary from 32kbps to 384kbps for every file?
Reason 1: The standard limits the range
As quoted above from the standard for 48/44.1/32kHz:
"For Layer II, not all combinations of total bitrate and mode are allowed. See
the following table."

Bitrate Allowed Modes
(kbps)
32 mono only
48 mono only
56 mono only
64 all modes
80 mono only
96 all modes
112 all modes
128 all modes
160 all modes
192 all modes
224 stereo only
256 stereo only
320 stereo only
384 stereo only

112 kbs All Modes, means All modes! I tried VBR sound and it works well and it's Joint stereo, too (only with 48 khz).

I'm talking about CBR 112 kbs 48 khz JOINT STEREO (that is translated in STEREO). I tell you this because Joint STereo gives an overall quality better than normal Stereo (I don't want ultra surround for my SVCDs, just a nice quality file).

[frank]

Hm, strange.
I tested TooLame again, and all encoded mp2 tracks are STEREO, regardless of setting the param -m j! WinAmp says STEREO. Hexbin compare gives equal file results.

Tested with TooLame 0.2i 0.2k 0.2l.
P4, XP.

But JOINT STEREO in MP2 is intensity stereo mode, and NOT the same as MP3 js! Intensity stereo destroys phase information, and you'll lose all surround info.
Maybe that's the reason for disabling that mode.

Joint mode in MP3 is MS stereo (middle/site). There you'll get better sound at 96-128 kbps than stereo.

[symonjfox]

So, is it definetly better to create normal STEREO files?

Don't trust to Winamp, use BBMPEG (while muxing with video) instead or Encspot (that gives better information)

[frank]

Yes, STEREO in mp2.
All my SVCDs have 44.1 kHz CBR 192/160 kbit/s STEREO Dolby pro Logic II sound, encoded with BeeSweet.
Excellent sound.

[symonjfox]

Instead I always used 112, 128 kbs Joint Stereo (to give more quality to video). I don't know if surround is deleted using these settings, but my TV is Mono ;) so I don't know.

It sounds quite good for me, I'd like to use MP2 VBR from 112 to 160 to give eccellent quality with less space, but I'm waiting for next Toolame (with Max Bitrate support, so I'll limit max bitrate to 160 to be sure that nothing will go over SVCD specs).

PS: VBR from 112 - 368 kbs can be done just @ 48 khz, with 44,1 khz just 192 - 368.

[frank]

You are far away from SVCD specs!
If you need mono then encode 96 kbps CBR mono. :)

Better use 90/99 min CDs and 160 kbps.

I have tested VBR 5, 48 kHz (~160 kbps) on SVCD. It works on my players, but DPL2 didn't sound much better on my Pioneer 5.1 receiver.
You may got some problems with chapter points and fast moving.

MP2 has lower qualtity than MP3 at the same bitrate!
128 kbps MP3 equals 160 kbps MP2.

There is a new version of TooLame out: 0.2l
Downloadable at Mike Cheng's homepage.

Here comes a faster ICL7 compile I found in the edges of the internet.
TooLame 0.2l-ICL7 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jfe1205/others.html)

pacohaas edit: no need to be secretive, in fact these rare-wares have become quite popular

[symonjfox]

Originally posted by frank
You are far away from SVCD specs!
If you need mono then encode 96 kbps CBR mono. :)
Better use 90/99 min CDs and 160 kbps.
WRONG: SVCD specs allow bitrate from 32 to 368 kbs. 112 and 128 are compilant and for me are enought for movies (not enough for music).
Unfortunately my CDRW doesn't support 90 min CD, so I must use 80 ones.
I have tested VBR 5, 48 kHz (~160 kbps) on SVCD. It works on my players, but DPL2 didn't sound much better on my Pioneer 5.1 receiver.
You may got some problems with chapter points and fast moving. I tried it too, but about 160 kbs means that there are many peacks to 368 kbs and so I must decrease video bitrate (or I'll get a XSVCD that my player doesn't support)
MP2 has lower qualtity than MP3 at the same bitrate!
128 kbps MP3 equals 160 kbps MP2. Maybe. Have you ever heard to any DAB trasmissions or satellite radio. The cheapest radios use 128 kbs but quality is very good (better than an FM radio). Off course 192 kbs would be better.There is a new version of TooLame out: 0.2l
Downloadable at Mike Cheng's homepage. Yes, I use it since it's out :D

[frank]

VBR from 112 - 368 kbs can be done just @ 48 khz,Yea, that's what I meant with out of specs. Let's hope that Mike Cheng finds a solution.

...about 160 kbs means that there are many peaks to 368 kbs...Oh no, the peaks don't make problems because of video BUFFERING that averages the bitrate.
Mux with bbMPEG - the really best muxer for SVCD. You'll see, there is no error message. Only if bbMPEG outputs buffer underrun errors you'll get problems.
Philips players play it smoothly, tested.

128 kbps quality sounds good on PC cubes, or televison devices.
But I have a home cinema, 5x100W DPL, and here the sound of higher bitrates is much better.

@pacohaas
Thanks for editing the link. No secret, I lost the link. :)

[symonjfox]

Originally posted by frank
Mux with bbMPEG - the really best muxer for SVCD. You'll see, there is no error message. Only if bbMPEG outputs buffer underrun errors you'll get problems.
I heard that BBmpeg can't mux VBR sound ... I'll test it soon
Philips players play it smoothly, tested.
I GOT IT :D

[SurfaceCleanerZ]

When using BBMpeg to mux my SVCDs, I don't know exactly which settings to use in "Program Stream Settings". I'm using "SVCD", "Add SVCD Scan offsets" and "Timestamps" for "all frames". Because there is no other option I'm using "auto pulldown". The pack options (size: 2324; packets/pack: 1) are ok I think, when selecting SVCD above, according to manual.

But do I have to use "VBR" ? I think so, but I'm not sure, because I have an CCE generated SVCD Video stream (right PAL dimensions: 480x576; RoBa method manually) and toolame (CBR) audio stream. Which Buffer sizes I have to use? And what about the "Startup delays"? Do I have to set them to 0 in order to leave my input as (good as) it is?

Should I use floating point to improve quality? I'm using an Athlon XP or sometimes an TB C (no SSE).

[frank]

@symonjfox
Ouch... you are right, I muxed the VBR tests with TMGEnc as SVCD stream. Sorry, I mismatched something with MPEG-2 multi-channel 5.1 streams. :(
But the SVCDs including mp2 VBR streams from TMPGEnc muxer played fine!

@SurfaceCleanerZ
Some off-topic here!
Search threads on dvd-svcd-forum.de.
Use SVCD standard settings in bbMPEG. You can reset 'SVCD scan offsets' and 'Align sequence headers' if your dvd player plays it.

[SurfaceCleanerZ]

I didn't know in which forum to post it, thx for your answer.