limits of CDXA burning

[jkwarras]

Hi,

A question out there; Anyone knows the real limits of the CDXA burning via MOde2CD maker? Looking at the oficial documentation that come with the application, it says that for a 700 MB CD you can go for a 794 MB capacity limit, (795 less 1 MB for the ISO Header whatever..)

But, when you make the image, there's a estimated size, and if you really look carefully you'll see that for these values (785-790 MB), it is always indicated something like 694 -695 MB, and on a 700 MB you can go for 703 MB if you close the CD; So, i think that we can go a little higher, maybe 800 will make a 703 MB CDXA image; The point it's that if we can do it safely or not;

The other thing, i saw on another discussion, that someone as been able to put something like 820 MB on a CDXA doing an overburning!!! That's really interesting, but it's really safe? I know overburning t's not damaging anything, but already in a CDXA, and doing an overburning, maybe just a scratch will really damage the CD and make it unreadable!!

The CDXA it's really safe, i have done lots of them and there's no problem with it, it has error correction, because there's only a layer that's removed and that thjere's no present anyway on VCD and audioCD, but can we go higher than that safely?

NO a simple question i assume :p

Ivan

[cult]

just to mention cdx doesnt do overburn to achieve its goal.As for your question I have overburn a disc mode2 up to 810mb>I think that is pretty safe as overburning a normal cd.Correct me if I am wrong

[symonjfox]

Originally posted by jkwarras

The CDXA it's really safe, i have done lots of them and there's no problem with it, it has error correction, because there's only a layer that's removed and that thjere's no present anyway on VCD and audioCD, but can we go higher than that safely?

Depends on what you're writing on the disc:

for example if you use AVI container, it's very dangerous using XCD because AVI hasn't any kind of error protection, so a scratch can damage the file itself.

VCDs and SVCDs use Mode2 because they've an error protection in the MPEG1 or 2 stream itself. Also MPEG 4 and other new container has it, so it should be pretty sure (keep in mind that MPEG 4 has troubles with DShow filters if used with XCD ... I don't remember why ...)

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by cult
just to mention cdx doesnt do overburn to achieve its goal.As for your question I have overburn a disc mode2 up to 810mb>I think that is pretty safe as overburning a normal cd.Correct me if I am wrong

Yeah, I know that cdxa don't do overburning :) If you put an OGM file that is aformat with error protection (if i've well understood) everything should be fine; Wow, puting 810 MB on a 700 CD is awesome, but really i don't know if it's safe do an overburning in this kind of CD because i think we just remove also a part of the 2 left protection layers (in a niormal CD there are 3 layers if i'm wrong correct me); So question for the smart people :) is there' safe to put a 810-820 MB OGM file into a 700 MB CDXA? and if yes, anyone knows the real limit before really going too far and making a really damageable media?

Excuse my english :)

Ivan

[alexnoe]

If it is safe to write an 820 MB file to a 700 MB disc, which would mean that the image would be something like 830 MB, depends on your CD-R discs.

The Taiyo Yuden 24x discs which I have can do this; most others can't.

[cfm]

As I understand it, overburning makes use of extra material at the end of the cd. Most manufacturers don't make the cd to be exactly 800 mb. There is usually a 1% extra bit. One can normally safely overburn up to 808 mb.

[alexnoe]

Every CD-R must have additional 90 seconds for the leadout, meaning 15 MB.

However, especially Taiyo Yuden adds even a bit more (and a CD-R can be read even if only a few seconds of the leadout are present)

[jkwarras]

Ok, so we're talking about 815 MB on a 700 MB, it's really cool! How do you set up for ex. Nero to do that? i mean how time do i have to specify for the overburning? 79,80 min?

I guess we can put a lot more with 800MB CD-R, and CDXA....like 900 MB? You can really have GOOOOd looking DVDrips with this size :)

Ivan

[cult]

you can use nero to test the overburn of the cd and then view in prompt mode how many minutes will be the dat it is making,trying to get as close as possible to the result of nero.I cant see any other way for the moment.And use ogm

[alexnoe]

Most of the 800 MB discs are of really crappy quality, so using them for Mode 2 Form 2 is a baaaad idea (using them at all is a bad idea...)

[DeXT]

This post I did some days ago may have some useful information about the real numbers when using Form2:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46917

However overburning is not discussed, but in case you can get the max. overburning capacity in terms of min:secs.frames (use Nero medium info for this) you can easily calculate the max. Form2 capacity:

((min*60*75)+(secs*75)+frames)*2324

BTW the new GUI will feature a preview size bar showing the exact size being written on the CD, in terms of min.sec.fra, so you can have a first sight figure about your target CD.

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by alexnoe
Most of the 800 MB discs are of really crappy quality, so using them for Mode 2 Form 2 is a baaaad idea (using them at all is a bad idea...)

I didn't knoooooow that :p Is this true? I've already heard that when 700MB CD came out. I've not use 800MB CD yet, but i was thinking about it;

[alexnoe]

700 MB are the maximum what the specs allow, that's why no quality manufacturer has made 800 MB discs.

Only TDK has recently started to, as well as EuroDigitial Disc ("DataTrack"). Only these two can be considered trustworthy.

[cult]

great news DeXT!

[cweb]

So far I haven't found branded 800Mb cdr's in the local shops - only unbranded ones. Are they really that bad quality in the sense of durability? So far for something important I'll use branded cd's only,
I don't risk using unbranded 800Mb.

[alexnoe]

If you have bad luck and get Digital Storage Technology discs, they will be either unburnable or will degrade within months.

[Ramirez]

Originally posted by alexnoe
Most of the 800 MB discs are of really crappy quality, so using them for Mode 2 Form 2 is a baaaad idea (using them at all is a bad idea...)

Couldn't disagree more! IMHO Very bad generalization. I am using 800 Megs GPT disks since they first become available, none a single problem! I can go up to 880/900 Megs (XCD) using these CD's.Furthermore some of them are badly scratched and still pretty much playable.
Originally posted by alexnoe
700 MB are the maximum what the specs allow, that's why no quality manufacturer has made 800 MB discs.
Orange Book specs are not written in stone, they'll change and all those "Quality Manufacturer" will follow.

Only TDK has recently started to, as well as EuroDigitial Disc ("DataTrack"). Only these two can be considered trustworthy.
Well I've lost my count of how many times I've seen supposedly good quality (Branded) CDs, totally unusable after just 4 month of use, IMHO branded doesn't always means GOOD in many cases. And let me tell you something about your beloved TDK, many of the TDK's CDs circulating in the market are not manufactured by the TDK at all, so I wouldn't call it trustworthy.

[alexnoe]

Couldn't disagree more! IMHO Very bad generalization. I am using 800 Megs GPT disks since they first become available, none a single problem! I can go up to 880/900 Megs (XCD) using these CD's.Furthermore some of them are badly scratched and still pretty much playable.Could you post a C1 scan? Could expose the recording layer to sunlight for a day? Quality discs will not get seriously damaged; Taiyo Yuden discs would most likely not even get damaged at all, not even noticable in a C1 scan. Princos may render useless after this procedure.

BTW, TDK sells media made with IDs of TDK, Ritek, Taiyo Yuden, Plasmon and more.

The TDK 800 MB discs I speak about are TDK.

I know one person who has used thousands of Platinum CD-Rs so far (this reseller labels Ritek B-grade stuff, DST, Forget, and eveb worse things), and had each single time the luck of getting usable Ritek discs.

Maybe you're just another case of statistical weirdness....

Orange Book specs are not written in stone, they'll change and all those "Quality Manufacturer" will follow.You got the point exactly: They WILL follow (note the future tense). But the majority of them just does not want to make round things for which there are no rules.
IMHO branded doesn't always means GOOD in many casesOf course not. Original Imation discs are not better than any rebranded ones.

[Ramirez]

Could you post a C1 scan?

I can't use WSES because its works with LiteOn drives and c1/c2 test only available for asus drives, same story with the CD-Doctor
Can you suggest another way to make such a test with my Teak-512e burner?

Could expose the recording layer to sunlight for a day?

Consider it done. As soon as my problem above will be solved.:)

Quality discs will not get seriously damaged; Taiyo Yuden discs would most likely not even get damaged at all, not even noticable in a C1 scan. Princos may render useless after this procedure.
Imo possible degree of damage caused by such a exposure heavily depends on the Dye Type used for that particular disc,AFAIK Taiyo Yuden uses exclusively Long strategy; e.g. Cyanine, Azo Dye Type.

Maybe you're just another case of statistical weirdness....
:D
That's maybe so, but there is also another possibility,Perhaps Prodisc (ATIP INFO) has managed to produce a very good and reliable product which I use almost exclusively, think of it.;)

[alexnoe]

Nah, a Teac won't allow C1 scans.

Imo possible degree of damage caused by such a exposure heavily depends on the Dye Type used for that particular disc,AFAIK Taiyo Yuden uses exclusively Long strategy; e.g. Cyanine, Azo Dye Type.

It is no problem, really not, to make crappy, fast degrading disc from a good dye... CMC (partially), Princo, DST, MMMM and some more demonstrate this.

The current situation is that the best and most durable discs are Mitsui (phthalo), Taiyo Yuden (cyanine) and also Mitsubishi (Azo). They can even sustain a certain amount of sunlight in florida.
Someone on cdfreaks did such a test, and Princos were not even recognised by his drive after 2 hours of exposure to sunlight. Mitsui's did not show any damage, and Taiyo Yudens were unfortunately not available for him