IC7: Changing target size has no effect

[ux-3]

After encoding a movie with IC7 it came out to 4 GB (nothing new). So I set 4.7 GB , hit F5 and done it again. Two things surprise:
a) The movie started encoding right away, without scan the second time
b) It was still 4 GB!

Any thoughts?

[ZeroLimit]

yup happend to me also I would hit F5 and it stil doesn't put the size I set it so I dont think the F5 trick does work!

[Fmazzanti]

Same stuff here... WHat worries me the most is that I can't find a way to make IC7 fill the entire DVD. Either I end up with 3.9-4.1Gb no matter what copression level I set, or just with 5.3Gb or so when the compression level is set to 100% (=no compression).
SO going form a compression level of 95% to 100% makes the output being 4.0Gb or 5.2Gb... weird!.

[MackemX]

Originally posted by Fmazzanti
Same stuff here... WHat worries me the most is that I can't find a way to make IC7 fill the entire DVD. Either I end up with 3.9-4.1Gb no matter what copression level I set, or just with 5.3Gb or so when the compression level is set to 100% (=no compression).
SO going form a compression level of 95% to 100% makes the output being 4.0Gb or 5.2Gb... weird!.

setting between 4.55-4.75 will get around the 4.37 mark, the bigger the original movie file (don't include audio) the closer to 4.75 you should set it

[MackemX]

Originally posted by ux-3
After encoding a movie with IC7 it came out to 4 GB (nothing new). So I set 4.7 GB , hit F5 and done it again. Two things surprise:
a) The movie started encoding right away, without scan the second time
b) It was still 4 GB!

Any thoughts?

a) its stores the analysis data from the 1st run into the discdata folder, so that's why it skipped the anlysis when you run it again or any other time

b) it's always seems to be around 0.03Gb if you adjust sliders, the bigger the file the smaller the output, see my previoust post for the answer to compensate for this

I also have got a few suggestions regarding filesizing but I'm still testing before I post them

but one hint is to oversize a little more, and dont worry about going over because you can run the resulting file through IC again setting everything to 100% and just take the few MB you need to lose from one of the extras

if any title is set at 100% it doesnt get transcoded, it just gets copied direct as fast as your HD permits

if you pick the main movie file then it will take 2 hours+, so just choose small files if possible (I realise that some DVD's do not have small files, so this may not benefit)

or an even quicker method if you are capable of replacing transcoded VOB files into an original is to just choose the main movie again, then set the menu to 100% so it does not trancode( you need to choose menu or IC wont allow transcode), and only choose the title you wanna make smaller and run that through IC, then extract the relevant titles VOB and IFO/BUP files and use ifoupdate to insert these back into your 1st time run results

it took me 3 mins to process a 60MB menu file and a title of 140MB to remove 0.2Gb so 5-10mins is better than another 2hrs+ guesstimate of filesize, best thing is you get the full 4.37Gb also :)

p.s. early indications show that around the 70% mark gives better predicted filesize results (minimal tho)
the higher the % above 70% the more it is out and the same goes for lower than 70% (strange), still more testing needed tho before this can be confirmed

[Fmazzanti]

Originally posted by MisterX
setting between 4.55-4.75 will get around the 4.37 mark, the bigger the original movie file (don't include audio) the closer to 4.75 you should set it
Actually I do set always file sizes of 4.80Gb or so and keep getting the nasty 3.92Gb output as I said.
BTW you say choose only one audio... I want to keep two! I guess that doing one audio only and inserting the second audio afterwards is not that easy, isn't it?

[MackemX]

Originally posted by Fmazzanti
Actually I do set always file sizes of 4.80Gb or so and keep getting the nasty 3.92Gb output as I said.
BTW you say choose only one audio... I want to keep two! I guess that doing one audio only and inserting the second audio afterwards is not that easy, isn't it?
you misunderstand me completely, audio has nothing to do with it, thats what I'm saying

if a file is 6.5Gb with 1Gb of audio, and you want to fit this into 4.32 as IC predicts then it does the following

6.50Gb - 1Gb audio = 5.5Gb video files
4.32Gb - 1Gb audio = 3.32Gb for video files
so IC will say that a setting 60.6% for all files

but you would probably end up with a file of 4GB, so what most people do is add on 0.3Gb to the 4.32 as predicted by IC or a little more the bigger the diff between original <5.5Gb> space allocated <3.32Gb>) to compensate for this (mine have ranged from 4.57-4.75)

How are you getting 4Gb files regardless of what % setting you use, if you are then something is wrong with your IC

what version are you using?

[ux-3]

Well, thats what it boils down to...
I keep getting the same size, regardless of what I set IC7 7091 to. I can't set it any higher, because I am at 99.90%.
I wonder if I should delete the file where aparently IC stores information about previous treatsments of the same DVD. What are they called? Should check for recent encoding dates to find them. Then do a "first" encode with inflated size. Will try this evening...

[fusion007]

i tend to ignore the slider altogether, generally if i have a transcoded video file(i include the audio)of about say 3.4gig i add up how much the extras will be and then adjust the main movie accordingly (if the extras are 300meg i set the vid to about 4to4.2),but if i have a lot of extras ill lower the quality to sqeeze abit more out of the main movie.it works for me! but if i have found anything out on this forum is nothing seems to work the same for everyone.

[ux-3]

Originally posted by fusion007
but if i have found anything out on this forum is nothing seems to work the same for everyone.

This is usually the indicator for people not yet knowing exactly what they are doing. We are all acolytes trying to enchant something with the new spell we found...
Proliferation of toads is a by-product...

[Oneiroxy]

Originally posted by MisterX
or an even quicker method if you are capable of replacing transcoded VOB files into an original is to just choose the main movie again, then set the menu to 100% so it does not trancode( you need to choose menu or IC wont allow transcode), and only choose the title you wanna make smaller and run that through IC, then extract the relevant titles VOB and IFO/BUP files and use ifoupdate to insert these back into your 1st time run results

Could you please elaborate more on this! It sounds very good.

[MackemX]

I will upload some pics to make it easier for you to understand :)

[MackemX]

Originally posted by Oneiroxy
Could you please elaborate more on this! It sounds very good. basically all you are doing is just reprocessing selected Titles in a much faster 2nd run with IC and using the produced smaller VOB's to replace the ones from the 1st run and this could be as little as 10 minutes to complete depending on files chosen

link with pics and info HERE (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/2big.htm)

[ux-3]

After deleting the files in which the movie information was stored, ic7 rescanned the movie. Even though this time I set it to 99%, it still turned out to 4GB... Very odd.

[waldok]

My test : I specified 4.80GB and hit F5, and I finally got like 4.35GB (at least DVD capacity is fully exploited)

I see two major problems with this commercial software :

1. Unpredictable size is not acceptable

2. Unpredictable quality is even less acceptable

On extras, I had to reencode the stuff 4 times in a row before I could find an acceptable balance between movie quality and extras quality. This is 15 hours spent for nothing (3 useless 5 hour-long sessions).

I would expect better from Pinnacle than this.

There is definitely some room for good stuff like DIF4U, DoCCE4U and reauthorist...

Waldok:cool:

[Fmazzanti]

Maybe, but there's something in Instantcopy that makes it really valuable, at least as much as the other methods: SIMPLICITY. You may not consider this important, but otehr people do. In fact, I'm sure many people here accepts happily some quality loss in favour of easiness, as not everybody wants to spent *lots* of hours learning how to use an hex-editor to delete a button in a menu, let's say...
Furthermore and as DVD2SVCD said once, 'quality is in the eye of the beholder', and that means 'unacceptable quality' is a relative term that makes different sense for different people...
But let me finish stating that I actually prefer also the CCE method :D , and better a combination of both. BTW, ReAuthorist has not been released yet (AFAIK)...

[waldok]

FMazzanti,

You are absolutely right as far as quality perception is concerned, each user will be satisfied towards his own criteria. Yet, macroblocks are macroblocks and even people who are unfamiliar with video quality problems had no trouble noticing them in my test. They considered it a major flaw and couldn't enjoy the movie, that's what I call unacceptable. As soon as the originakl picture is turned into a "tetris game", I would safely call it unacceptable ;)I am talking about "severe" artefacts here ! If you have the time, give Resident Evil animated menu a try and see if you can accept the quality produced by IC even at 70% quality ? Just looks like a 1Mbps encoded movie...

Concerning time, I'm afraid getting reasonable quality out of IC7 will take even more time than doing it the DIF4U and CCE way. At least, with the CCE method, you make your bitrate calculations BEFORE, and check that everything will be ok, so you know what you will have in the end. This is a little hassle for a great result. With IC7, I set extras quality to 60%, ran the process, checked it, no luck, was ugly, then started it again at 70%, ran the process, checked it, not much better, but hey, now my movie is too big,had to lower quality settings on the movie itself, ran the process, checked it, and so and so... See what I mean ? I'd rather spend 1 hour calculating all bitrates rather than this trial and error stuff :mad:

Honestly, I'd rather use DVD2one than IC7 (ok, you'd still have to torture me a bit before I accept :D ).

But that's just a personal opinion and I totally respect people who prefer to use IC7 or DVD2ONE or any other solution. I just wanted to point out IC7 is not the "Ultimate" tool and it won't allow "perfect" 1:1 copies, despite what Pinnacle advertises.

Considering the size bug, I really think it is not a good product. I admit it is not that expensive, but price isn't the whole point.

I know Reauthorist is not available yet, that's why I say there is much room for it when it comes out, together with DIF4U and Docce4U.

Aquabubble hurry up !

Waldok:cool:

[MackemX]

Originally posted by waldok
My test : I specified 4.80GB and hit F5, and I finally got like 4.35GB (at least DVD capacity is fully exploited)

I see two major problems with this commercial software :

1. Unpredictable size is not acceptable

2. Unpredictable quality is even less acceptable

On extras, I had to reencode the stuff 4 times in a row before I could find an acceptable balance between movie quality and extras quality. This is 15 hours spent for nothing (3 useless 5 hour-long sessions).

I would expect better from Pinnacle than this.

There is definitely some room for good stuff like DIF4U, DoCCE4U and reauthorist...

Waldok:cool:
1. you are kidding, 15hrs!, try reading my suggestion in this guide HERE (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/2big.htm) and the guide below and you will chop off at least 12 hours :)

2. anything over 60% is normally acceptable quality even the larger files like Saving Private Ryan. Menu's and extras can be dropped as low as 50% and still be acceptable quality. I cannot understand how @ 70% it is unnaceptable for you as most people complain when using under 60%, how many audio tracks are you keeping?

To use IC to get maximum quality and filesize utilization try this

1) Use IC only for what it is advertised for and that is 'true 1:1 copies' not for stripping, as it does not alway do it properly!. So to save on potential DVD structure errors use the VOB MENU/EXTRAS feautures with Ifoedit to strip VOB ID's (plenty of guides to so that about)

2) read my suggestion guide on how to use IC, but concentrate on the bit at the bottom about suggested % settings for IC (suggested minimum for menu & extras is 60%). Files set near 30% also seem to cause problems for IC, so go no lower than 40%

3) Now add 9% of the predicted file size (NOT the figure in the brackets beside it, as the audio does not change!) for all the SELECTED movie files & menu NOT set @ 100% by IC (don't include linked titles twice), as IC always seems to be 8-9% under regarding filesize on these files, don't worry about a resulting file over 4.37GB (you should know why if you read my guide)

4) set IC away and minimize it and go do something else for 2 hours if need be

5) if resulting PDI files do not fit on DVD blank or are less than your acceptable level then now use my guide if needed on resulting files to either add or subtract the difference

6) ENJOY your DVD backup :D

I will eventually post a full guide, but all I can say for now IC is a wonderful tool when used with Ifoedit :D

[waldok]

Thanks misterX for taking the time to write it all down, but I'm afraid if I have to strip VobIds before using IC7 and tweak it further after the process, I'll stick with my usual "fully" manual method where at least I can control every single part. I won't buy a 1:1 off-the-shelf solution that needs "manual adjustments" to work properly. Doesn't look "fair" to me.


Thanks anyway.

Waldok:cool:

[MackemX]

Originally posted by waldok
Thanks misterX for taking the time to write it all down, but I'm afraid if I have to strip VobIds before using IC7 and tweak it further after the process, I'll stick with my usual "fully" manual method where at least I can control every single part. I won't buy a 1:1 off-the-shelf solution that needs "manual adjustments" to work properly. Doesn't look "fair" to me.


Thanks anyway.

Waldok:cool:

looking at what you have just said, by what you state you are under the wrong impression what 'true 1:1 backups' means

Stripping even one tiny title using IC is not 'true 1:1' but it is if you strip 1st using Ifoedit and all works before you use IC

I think you are under the impression it means 1:1 quality but unfortunately it doesn't (wish it did! :()

can I ask about the extra usertime when using CCE, granted the quality is fractionally better if set at the same compression as IC but regards rebuilding original DVD structure then it's a lot more user time actually sitting at PC (IC incorparates this in the 2 hours) and even more for such DVD's like Matrix, Monster's Inc, etc when compared to IC when they don't work properly 1st time using traditional methods

I always used CCE previous to this regardless of usertime for quality also but after the initial teething problems of using IC I now enjoy ever so slightly less quality video and more time to do other things apart from compressing DVD's :D and for me it's worth that tiny sacrifice in quality (I could not find an easy method to compress menu data either)

I do hope you try my method at least once to see what I mean

[waldok]

MisterX,

I appreciate the way you react here in this thread trying to convince me ;). I'll give your method a try and see what comes out.
Anyway, I'm out tomorrow for a week holiday, far from DVD authoring problems, so, feedback should not be expected before a few days.

Be assured I'm not under the impression that 1:1 means same quality. There is no wonder one cannot use a DVD5 and have the same quality as the original DVD9. 7GB will not be 4.35GB without losing something in between ;)

But what I got for the moment was really too bad qualitywise. Resident Evil region 1, just keeping english channel audio tracks (2 of them), french subtitles, and willing to keep all extras (ok there are a lot of them). Animated menu is dark red and fast moving, which I agree will make it difficult to deal with for a transcoder. But even at 70%, it's not good.

I wouldn't sacrifice quality for more spare time, since at the time I will be watching the movie, I will have forgotten what I did during this spare time, but I will still have these ugly macroblocks before my eyes and wonder why the hell I did such a crappy encoding :D

I'll give your method a try though. I'll let you know.

Thanks for your efforts (Pinnacle salesmen wouldn't do better ) :)

Waldok:cool: :

[MackemX]

Originally posted by waldok
MisterX, But what I got for the moment was really too bad qualitywise. Resident Evil region 1, just keeping english channel audio tracks (2 of them), french subtitles, and willing to keep all extras (ok there are a lot of them). Animated menu is dark red and fast moving, which I agree will make it difficult to deal with for a transcoder. But even at 70%, it's not good.

I could never rebuild menus after reducing video size but then I never put that much effort into trying it, I just concentrated on the movie and extras

what is the size of the original DVD and how much are you actually keeping? as IC will struggle to keep huge DVD's to an acceptable quality in both main movie & menu/extras

one will have to suffer slighty but from what you say about blocking it must be some size that you are keeping :)

what size are shown in the Cell Set with all your chosen titles when set to automatic sizing including menu and then again to 100%

e.g. Total DVD size 7.82Gb
video data size 6.52 (7.63) slider bar=100%
transcoded size 3.21 (4.31) slider bar=50%

so as you can see the video is 6.52GB and audio/subs etc is 1.10GB (7.63+6.52), after stripping gives me a new video size of 3.21Gb and total size of 4.31, now that is a compression of 50% for video which is asking a bit much from IC to maintain high quality throughout, if it is 60%+ then is should be acceptable and the higher the better

below is not aimed at you waldok, but a pointer for all people complaining about quality with IC as you are asking for too much compression between what you are selecting and allocating

AFAIK there is not nothing better for ease of ise & quality for 1:1 backups, if you allocate the same video filespace and apart from using CCE and rebuilding (or any other high quality compression) and your comfortable doing it, which you obviously are waldok and I was, then IC is the best option for most users

please don't mention DVD2One will do it with better quality, as firstly DVD2 one is not a 'true 1:1' backup as of yet and if you did rebuild the DVD IC beats DVD2One regarding quality loss, not noticable with smaller files but the bigger files like this example then the greater the difference (sorry :(, if I upset any diehard DVD2One fans, please don't take it personally), but bear in mind I am saying this based on both resulting video filesizes for each Title being the same and not allocating DVD2One the full 4.37Gb for main movie file and audio as some people actually base their opinions on

I'm not a salesman for Pinnacle but I'm trying to help others who seem to suffer with IC by not getting at least one good result and by using a larger DVD with loads of extras will seriously affect you opinion, if you try it on an average DVD then you will see what I am ranting on about and why I try to help other with quality & program problems so they get the same good results as I do
Rant Rant Rant :D

[fusion007]

"If you have the time, give Resident Evil animated menu"



i may have done the different version to you but my resident evil was a straight disk to disk copy?

[ux-3]

Since this thread evolves into a new direction, I would like to get it a little on "my" track again. I am personally only after the main movie, or after a simple life when I have multiple TV episodes to deal with. Since Instant Copy 7 was very confused about the original vobs and (even with the reg hack working), would not let me do the movie without some animated menue. Hence I had ifoedited a stripped movie without menues. (Someone mentioned this method above too).

I would have no problems to apply this movie to DVD2DVDR, if it were not for the subtitle streams. It contains some elvish (won't say which movie it is). The second DVD can be stripped to fit with ifoedit, and it retains the smartness about which subtitle is to be shown along with which language. DVD2DVDR will reauther the DVD, and that destroys the smart handling of subtitles. I tried to find out how to do this manually, but could not get it done yet.

So I figured I would pass the 4.9 GB ifocreated "pre-image" through IC7 to shrink it to fit, keeping the minimal good DVD structure as is. As I reported, the encode, which only deals with the movie, comes out to 4GB flat. Viewing it makes me certain that I don't want to have my movie this way. By utilizing the full DVD, I could reduce the data reduction in half, leading to a better picture perhaps. But IC7 can't be coerced to yield more that 4 GB, no matter what I try.

So I will likely take the DVD2DVDR route. This however leaves me with the problem on how to transport the good subtitle management from the original ifo to the reauthored one. Perhaps someone remembers a thread that deals with this technique and can supply a good search term or the title. I have an ifo which contains exactly the subtitle management I want for the streams, I just need to port them to the newly authored ifo.

[waldok]

@fusion007

My resident evil is region 1. I contains a shitload of trailers (7 or 8 if I remember well). I would get rid of these, but the problem is I don't like to make a backup different from the original...
Whole files are about 7.9GB (not sure though, can't check now).

@MisterX

I'll check the size values reported by IC.

But now, it's time for...HOLIDAY.

See you in a week or so !

Waldok:cool:

[MackemX]

Originally posted by waldok
My resident evil is region 1. I contains a shitload of trailers (7 or 8 if I remember well). I would get rid of these, but the problem is I don't like to make a backup different from the original...
Whole files are about 7.9GB (not sure though, can't check now).
LOL, buy the basic version instead of special editions :D

p.s. NJOY holiday

[MackemX]

Originally posted by ux-3
I would have no problems to apply this movie to DVD2DVDR, if it were not for the subtitle streams. It contains some elvish (won't say which movie it is). The second DVD can be stripped to fit with ifoedit, and it retains the smartness about which subtitle is to be shown along with which language. DVD2DVDR will reauther the DVD, and that destroys the smart handling of subtitles. I tried to find out how to do this manually, but could not get it done yet.
I had same problem with audio tracks order, but found the solution and posted in this thread using Trilight's guides
ANSWER HERE FOR SUBS FOR YOU (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=268514#post268514)

I've edited the thread to answer your problem. Reply in that one if you have queries about info. Hope it helps :D

but I can't understand why you get 4Gb files all the time regradless of predicted size tho :confused: as I testing how audio affects final size I set mine @ 5.6Gb and it came out at 5.12GB :D

[CiViC]

when i tried Resident Evil, i stripped the extras and foreign language tracks (kept the cast comments and original 5.1), got it to fit on a dvd-r without reencoding...extras are great and all, but i'd rather keep the movie quality at 100% if at all possible (since that's what i'm aiming to backup)

*EDIT* oh, i kept the original menu as well...thank god for tools like ifoedit ;)