Sorenson Video 3 [Archive]

rjamorim

18th February 2003, 06:10

You can check out it's efficiency playing the trailers found at quicktime's page. They are all encoded in Sorenson3.

I personally like this codec, but I don't use it since I don't know of any pratical way to rip from DVD to QuickTime.

It's very, very slow, both encoding and playback. That's another drawback.

deXtoRious

19th February 2003, 00:04

It all looks pretty good and promising, but is it available for download? If not, then what use do we have of it whatsoever? :confused:

Sirber

19th February 2003, 00:46

I have both codec and encoder. It only produce QuickTime file format. It sucks!!!!

rjamorim

19th February 2003, 01:15

Originally posted by Sirber
I have both codec and encoder. It only produce QuickTime file format. It sucks!!!!

Right. Sorenson Video is exclusively a QuickTime codec. Same is QDesign.

Rash

19th February 2003, 01:56

I think it produces a high quality image. But I think the final filesize is quite big as well. Anyway, like rjamorin said, there are no nice tools to convert DVD to Quick Time. :)

Sirber

19th February 2003, 17:15

I don't like QuickTime. If someone is interrested by this software/codec, mail me at sirber@webernic.com and I'll give you a URL.

Tommy Carrot

20th February 2003, 00:51

Sorenson is far slower and has worse efficiency than the ruler MPEG4 codecs. And using quicktime container doesn't make it nicer to my eyes. :D No reason to use it.

midiguy

20th February 2003, 05:49

Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
Sorenson is far slower and has worse efficiency than the ruler MPEG4 codecs. And using quicktime container doesn't make it nicer to my eyes. :D No reason to use it.
couldn't disagree more!!

FIRST OFF: most of you are probably talking about the Sorenson 3 Video Codec (basic, vanilla codec) while the sorenson 3 PRO codec offers 2-pass, b-frames and vbr (basic codec doesn't).

ALSO: Sorenson beats all the current MPEG-4 codecs at lower bitrates ideal for web (generally 650 kbps and lower, I have not really done much testing for higher bitrates).

ALSO: there are 2 main tools to encode in sorenson video (QT PRO IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!) either use "Cleaner" (made by a company called discreet) or "Sorenson Squeeze" (made by Sorenson themselves). I prefer cleaner (not sure why, I guess it is more compatible with shit although it is much bulkier than squeeze, also many more features).

ALSO: Sorenson also makes an MPEG-4 codec (just recently released) in addition to their "Sorenson Video 3" codec. Never tested it, so I can't say how it compares to other available MPEG-4 codecs, but it got a big press release.

midiguy

20th February 2003, 05:55

Originally posted by Rash
I think it produces a high quality image. But I think the final filesize is quite big as well. Anyway, like rjamorin said, there are no nice tools to convert DVD to Quick Time. :)

As far as I know, you should be able to import MPEG-2 video right into cleaner and encode to Sorenson Video 3 Pro in the MOV container. But if for whatever reason that isn't possible, you may be able to import an AVS (maybe not) and if that doesn't work, you can for sure import a VFAPI Pseudo AVI file.

I actually don't have a prob with quicktime, the MOV container is actually quite sophisticated, and I especially like the QT interface for web video (very user friendly, easy progressive download and play without a special server)

midiguy

20th February 2003, 05:58

additionally, I have done some tests comparing the Sorenson 3 Video Pro codec compared to RV9 (those 2 can't be touched at lower bitrates), and from what I could tell, RV9 came out slightly on top (although RV9 did look more post-processed since we don't have control over that, so it is really hard to judge the 2 objectively like that). and once again, I ahve only tested the Sorenson 3 Video Pro Codec, not their new MPEG-4 codec.

PS: sorry about the post after post after post,.

Sirber

20th February 2003, 17:13

In conclusion, it's a bad codec with no futur if you don't like QuickTime contener. For my tests with Sorenson Squeeze (Pro Codec), it's really slow at encoding and crashed often.

For RV9, the "post-procesing" you see result from a bad resizing filter (present in RealOne). Uses MPC (www.lalternative.org) and see.

midiguy

20th February 2003, 22:56

Originally posted by Sirber
In conclusion, it's a bad codec with no futur if you don't like QuickTime contener. For my tests with Sorenson Squeeze (Pro Codec), it's really slow at encoding and crashed often.
well if you don't like the quicktime container then you probably wouldn't like using it (since it is only support MOV) but it is by no means a bad format. and sorenson MPEG-4 is suppose to be pretty good although I have never actually tested it myself.

rjamorim

21st February 2003, 05:43

Originally posted by midiguy
As far as I know, you should be able to import MPEG-2 video right into cleaner and encode to Sorenson Video 3 Pro in the MOV container.

Cleaner doesn't decodes AC3 nor LPCM.

Of course, it would be possible anyway. But my post was exactly that there isn't a pratical way of doin that. By pratical, I mean leaving a program ripping at night and when you wake up you have nice CD-sized files with the video.

midiguy

21st February 2003, 16:22

Originally posted by rjamorim
Cleaner doesn't decodes AC3 nor LPCM.

Of course, it would be possible anyway. But my post was exactly that there isn't a pratical way of doin that. By pratical, I mean leaving a program ripping at night and when you wake up you have nice CD-sized files with the video.

I'm sorry people, but I just don't see the big deal. if it can't take the AC3 audio in the VOB, just rip the VOB wityhout the audio, rip the AC3s, convert tp PCM wav and use that. once you get it to start the 1st of 2 passes, it will do it and just leave you alone...

I still think that RV9 is better though, atleast for lower bitrates (although RV9 has a few bugs to fix, major bugs in fact, this jitter bug as well as the bug mentioned earlier, that resize bug).

rjamorim

21st February 2003, 23:02

Originally posted by midiguy
ALSO: there are 2 main tools to encode in sorenson video (QT PRO IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!) either use "Cleaner" (made by a company called discreet) or "Sorenson Squeeze" (made by Sorenson themselves). I prefer cleaner (not sure why, I guess it is more compatible with shit although it is much bulkier than squeeze, also many more features).

You can use Canopus Procoder for * -> MOV encoding too.

But Cleaner (with MPEG charger) and Squeeze have at least an advantage: You can eport the MOVs with MP3 audio, while on Procoder and QTPro you must use outdated codecs or that damned QDesign.

ALSO: Sorenson also makes an MPEG-4 codec (just recently released) in addition to their "Sorenson Video 3" codec. Never tested it, so I can't say how it compares to other available MPEG-4 codecs, but it got a big press release.

I just tested it, but didn't compare to other encoders. Very good image quality on an average-difficulty clip. Good compliancy (played on Quicktime, Envivio and MPEG4ip), and relatively fast.

Regards;

Roberto.

deXtoRious

22nd February 2003, 01:23

So after all it seems that the codec is worth testing at least. Therefore I have a real lamer-like question (sorry for that), but where can I download it? Where did you guys get it? I'm especially interested in the MPEG4 codec, but the other one would suit fine as well...

Tommy Carrot

22nd February 2003, 01:40

While quicktime container technically certainly superior to the avi, i still have strong feelings against it. I find it a very sick idea to asking money for a minimally useful player on pc. The free quicktime player is practically useless, and the encoding options are limited too. /The 'please update' notes was very annoying too, i've removed quicktime after a short time./

I've played with sorenson 3 (not pro), and i can say with confidence: it is worse than advanced mpeg4 codecs, and much slower also.

I've not tested their mpeg4 codec, but i gathered from several sources, that it is not comparable to divx/xvid. Rumors about bad blockings, y'know. :D

rjamorim

22nd February 2003, 02:17

Originally posted by deXtoRious
So after all it seems that the codec is worth testing at least. Therefore I have a real lamer-like question (sorry for that), but where can I download it? Where did you guys get it? I'm especially interested in the MPEG4 codec, but the other one would suit fine as well...

You can get a trial version here:
http://www.sorenson.com/content.php?pageID=138

IMO, Sorenson Video 3 is a very interesting encoding option for another reason: In the form of Sorenson Spark, it's playable on every computer that can play Macromedia Flash 6. Not a great idea for movie ripping, indeed, but interesting for small clips distribution.

rjamorim

22nd February 2003, 02:31

Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
While quicktime container technically certainly superior to the avi, i still have strong feelings against it. I find it a very sick idea to asking money for a minimally useful player on pc. The free quicktime player is practically useless, and the encoding options are limited too. /The 'please update' notes was very annoying too, i've removed quicktime after a short time./

Actually, you can play MOV files with other players. Most notably, RadLight and Sasami2k.

But you need QuickTime installed. (the codecs, at least)

I've played with sorenson 3 (not pro), and i can say with confidence: it is worse than advanced mpeg4 codecs, and much slower also

Correct, but that's unfair. Get xvid, strip out all VBR code, don't use b-frames, and you'll get something closer to Sorenson Basic.

And the Pro version is faster too.

deXtoRious

22nd February 2003, 11:41

2 rjamorim

thx :D

Sirber

22nd February 2003, 15:54

Some tests, codec v2 vs codec v3

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Tests/Das_Codec-Duell_-_Sorenson_2_gegen_3__mit_Screenshots__.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSorenson%2Bversus%2BReal%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8

rjamorim

23rd February 2003, 01:25

Hrm... That seems to conclude that Sorenson 3 is a good codec. But I really couldn't make sense of most of it. :D

Ramirez

23rd February 2003, 01:33

Damn,after 8 hours of encoding the squeezer just died on me.:devil:
too bad because the app is actually quite sophisticated, very
intuitive UI,lots of settings to play with,supports 6 diff
formats as output including QT-3 Pro RV-9 and MPEG4 Pro.
The Program ver is 3.0; I'll check the Sorenson's web site tomorrow for updates.

midiguy

24th February 2003, 03:21

Originally posted by rjamorim

Correct, but that's unfair. Get xvid, strip out all VBR code, don't use b-frames, and you'll get something closer to Sorenson Basic.

And the Pro version is faster too.
and only 1 pass support too, I've tested the Basic and Pro, you can't even compare the two.

rjamorim

27th February 2003, 20:05

Originally posted by Ramirez
Damn,after 8 hours of encoding the squeezer just died on me.:devil:
too bad because the app is actually quite sophisticated, very
intuitive UI,lots of settings to play with,supports 6 diff
formats as output including QT-3 Pro RV-9 and MPEG4 Pro.
The Program ver is 3.0; I'll check the Sorenson's web site tomorrow for updates.

Have you tried encoding again?

BTW: The AAC encoder seems to be Fraunhofer's Professional (AACdemo 2.x) - what means audio quality is excellent. :)
(Too bad you can't choose VBR)

Ramirez

27th February 2003, 23:34

I've planned to encode "saving private ryan" using QT-Pro Rv-9-M5 and Sorenson's MPEG4-Pro and post the results here later, but two major problems stopping me from doing so.First,No Avisynth support, use of Vfapi it's a bad choice imo due to its horrible speed. Second,it's always dies(at least for me)completely randomly on second pass doesn't matter which codec I choose to encode with. Now if it's not enough the encoder seem not to respect correct crop and resize setting I'm feeding it with.(Did I mention an exceptionally "high" encoding speed? >15 hours just to complete the first pass):eek: I went to the Sorenson's web site and guess what,no updates available,I guess those guys living in a fantasy that they've created some sort of bugs free,rock stable product that doesn't need any updates.

rjamorim

28th February 2003, 00:08

Originally posted by Ramirez
I guess those guys living in a fantasy that they've created some sort of bugs free,rock stable product that doesn't need any updates.

Or maybe they didn't finished squashing bugs yet so that they can do a maintenance release. :)

Ramirez

28th February 2003, 01:31

Yeah but why to release such a buggy untested piece of crap in the first place?.They're probably following in the footsteps of another
quite famous software company known as doing the same for years...;)

midiguy

28th February 2003, 09:30

Originally posted by Ramirez
I've planned to encode "saving private ryan" using QT-Pro Rv-9-M5 and Sorenson's MPEG4-Pro and post the results here later, but two major problems stopping me from doing so.First,No Avisynth support, use of Vfapi it's a bad choice imo due to its horrible speed. Second,it's always dies(at least for me)completely randomly on second pass doesn't matter which codec I choose to encode with. Now if it's not enough the encoder seem not to respect correct crop and resize setting I'm feeding it with.(Did I mention an exceptionally "high" encoding speed? >15 hours just to complete the first pass):eek: I went to the Sorenson's web site and guess what,no updates available,I guess those guys living in a fantasy that they've created some sort of bugs free,rock stable product that doesn't need any updates.

it is probalby some problems in QT Pro. I would reccoemdn using Cleaner for Sorenson encodings. Sorenson Pro Video 3 codec is rock-solid stable as far as my tests go, and has been around for a very long time (almsot since 2000). and there have been some updates to the codec (check again?)

PS: Yesh lee zayin gadol meod.

rjamorim

1st March 2003, 02:55

Originally posted by Ramirez
Yeah but why to release such a buggy untested piece of crap in the first place?.They're probably following in the footsteps of another
quite famous software company known as doing the same for years...;)

It's strange, I never had any problem with it here. (although I must admit I never tried encoding lenghty movies. 30 minutes max, I think)

Ramirez

1st March 2003, 18:28

rjamorim an midiguy,you're both probably talking about Sorenson's video pro 3.0 codec which Is undoubtedly very good and stable codec,but you see what I have in mind is Sorenson video pro 3.01 and MPEG-4 PRO 3.01codecs,which only available among with the Sorenson Squeeze Suite,there is no choice other then use of Squeeze encoder if you want all those goodies like 2-pass VBR,B-Frames,GMC and AAC Audio.(Cleaner Only Supports Video Pro 3.0)

P.S.
Originally posted by midiguy
PS: Yesh lee zayin gadol meod.
Interesting Postscript Bro.;) :D

midiguy

1st March 2003, 19:38

Originally posted by Ramirez
rjamorim an midiguy,you're both probably talking about Sorenson's video pro 3.0 codec which Is undoubtedly very good and stable codec,but you see what I have in mind is [b]Sorenson video pro 3.01 and MPEG-4 PRO 3.01codecs, which only available among with the Sorenson Squeeze Suite,there is no choice other then use of Squeeze encoder if you want all those goodies like 2-pass VBR,B-Frames,GMC and AAC Audio.(Cleaner Only Supports Video Pro 3.0)

nope, cleaner supports the pro codec as well. it only COMES WITH the basic codec, but if you install the pro codec, it will have all the pro features in cleaner, and allow you to configure all the pro options (2-pass, b-frames, etc.) I know this for a fact because I have it set up like this.

Ramirez

1st March 2003, 22:52

Yup, you where right, cleaner do support Video-pro 3.01 codec; I just had to D/L an update and viola it's there 2pass vbr/b-frames etc. (still you'll have to use Squeeze encoder if you want Mpeg-4 Pro (http://portal.knowledgebase.net/al/2970/3816/52132.html) output)

I've celebrated too early, apparently cleaner only accepts audio stream muxed in AVI container, and there is no option to import an audio track separately.... a well.

midiguy

3rd March 2003, 04:06

Originally posted by Ramirez
Yup, you where right, cleaner do support Video-pro 3.01 codec; I just had to D/L an update and viola it's there 2pass vbr/b-frames etc. (still you'll have to use Squeeze encoder if you want Mpeg-4 Pro (http://portal.knowledgebase.net/al/2970/3816/52132.html) output)

I've celebrated too early, apparently cleaner only accepts audio stream muxed in AVI container, and there is no option to import an audio track separately.... a well.
you certain about that?? I'm almost certain that you can put in external audio files... well, another possibility using VFAPI to amke a fake avi file for the video and also attach PCM audio to the same fake avi file.. that should work.

rjamorim

5th March 2003, 02:11

Originally posted by Ramirez
rjamorim an midiguy,you're both probably talking about Sorenson's video pro 3.0 codec which Is undoubtedly very good and stable codec,but you see what I have in mind is Sorenson video pro 3.01 and MPEG-4 PRO 3.01codecs,which only available among with the Sorenson Squeeze Suite,there is no choice other then use of Squeeze encoder if you want all those goodies like 2-pass VBR,B-Frames,GMC and AAC Audio.(Cleaner Only Supports Video Pro 3.0)

Nope, I was talking about the MPEG4 codec. It actually _worked_ here(there), but, as I said, it was a short encoding.

And, indeed, you can't use MPEG4 with Cleaner (as well as you can't use Apple's MPEG4 there either). Your only hope is waiting for Sorenson to fix whatever bug is causing these crashes. :(

digitalman

29th March 2004, 17:49

I tested the trial of Sorenson Squeeze and it does a great job converting DivX avis to DVD format. It is a little slower than 1:1 encoding. The quality is comparable to any other encoder out there.

Sirber

29th March 2004, 17:53

Squeeze can encode to MPEG2?

Neo Neko

29th March 2004, 22:02

Originally posted by rjamorim
Right. Sorenson Video is exclusively a QuickTime codec. Same is QDesign.

I have a QDesign MP2 ACM codec. So that does not seem entirely correct. Or are you speaking of a particular QDesign product in general.

Originally posted by Sirber
I have both codec and encoder. It only produce QuickTime file format. It sucks!!!!

What? You don't like MP4? Sure I have issue with quicktime MPEG4 bitstream codecs. But their MPEG4 file mux is decent. And MP4 holds it's own with the best containers.

Originally posted by rjamorim
Actually, you can play MOV files with other players. Most notably, RadLight and Sasami2k.

Yes although I never liked Radlight that much. And you mean to tell me people still use Sasami2k? Scarry! That software has hardly been touched in 3 years!!. Also not to ignore the obvious but I would like to add Media Player Clasic to the list of QT playing software. And Mplayer. Though Mplayer is quite hit and miss under Windows it chugs right along under Linux.

On that note what about videolan? It handles almost everything but the kitchen sink. I will have to test that later.

Sirber

29th March 2004, 23:35

Originally posted by Neo Neko
What? You don't like MP4? Sure I have issue with quicktime MPEG4 bitstream codecs. But their MPEG4 file mux is decent. And MP4 holds it's own with the best containers.You gathered some old posts :) Things has evolved since. And, about the best container, Matroska is WAY better since it can handle RMVB :p

lilhobo

30th March 2004, 04:30

the sparks codec is the best thing out of the squeeze suite....very nice streaming, low bitrate high quality flash

what the deal with matroska??? is it another codec to fill up your HDD???

PS. I hate search !!! :D

bond

30th March 2004, 09:17

Originally posted by Sirber
Matroska is WAY better since it can handle RMVBi am getting tired of telling people about mp4...

mp4 can hold all a/v streams, in fact mpeg-4 systems (the part for dvd menus for example) was built to also work with non mpeg stuff (yes, these menus could also used with rv9 and it wouldnt even be a hack)
still it makes sense to limit the range of usable codecs in mp4, cause only this can ensure interoperability
as i wrote already in another thread:
where mp4 ensures interoperability, matroska ensures that people have a broad codec range to choose from

Tommy Carrot

30th March 2004, 11:22

MP4 has a big disadvantage. Virtualdub(mod) doesn't support it, and this fact definitely limits its usability. :p

digitalman

30th March 2004, 20:52

"Video output support

Squeeze supports output for multiple formats including QuickTime, Windows Media (7, 8, and 9), RealMedia, Flash, MPEG-1, MPEG-2, and MPEG-4 media for streaming, progressive downloads, CDs, and now DVDs."
http://www.sorenson.com/solutions/prod/comp_win.php

Originally posted by Sirber
Squeeze can encode to MPEG2?