VCD or SVCD at 1150kbps

[neily]

Hi,

I want to back up a number of kid's DVD's (cartoons) that are in danger of getting damaged beyond playablity. All are about or less that 80 mins, so I could happily go for VCD or SVCD.

I assumed that MPEG2, being the newer technology, would give better results than MPEG1, but having tried both, using AVISynth BilinearResize and Compare, the MPEG1's actually appear closer to the original than the MPEG2's.

I am using TMPGEnc for MPEG1 and CCE 2.5 for MPEG2. Is my method fatally flawed or does MPEG1 genuinely give better results than MPEG2 at 1150 kbps on cartoons?

[Boulder]

I'd say that MPEG-1 is better at low bitrates, and I mean low by DVD standards - which means something like averaging less than ~3000kbps. TMPGEnc is also very good at MPEG-1 and the best part is that it's free of charge. You only have to pay for the MPEG-2 portion:D

Also if you use the CQ mode, you'll notice that MPEG-1 produces slightly smaller files compared to MPEG-2. Therefore you'd be able to raise the CQ value and get better quality.

[segfault]

Yes, your eyes are not deceiving you. MPEG-1 does generally give better results at low bitrates. Although both are capable of any bitrate and resolution you are likely to use, MPEG-1 is optimized for low resolutions and low bitrates, such as might be found in VCDs, while MPEG-2 is designed for higher resolution broadcast-quality video.

Either will work, but they are just tuned differently.

[DivXerouS]

Could you Elaborate a little bit more on the Mpeg 1 being better then Mpeg 2's at low bitrates. I've been making SVCD's for a while now and I usually encode a 40 Minute movie [1CD] at a bitrate of usually around 2000 [XSVCD] and they come out pretty good, but most DVD Players don't play SVCD's. Usually I have a lot of high action scenes. So please explain to me a little bit.




DivXerouS
:stupid:

[Boulder]

I think you should be able to find some official or non-official papers about it, but based on the fact that DVDs use MPEG-2 and they have a high bitrate (usually more than 2500kbps all the time) and MPEG-1 is used for lower bitrate encodes such as VCDs, I'd suppose that's the way it just is.

Also I quote myself: MPEG-1 produces slightly smaller files with CQ mode than MPEG-2 and therefore you can use a higher CQ value (=better quality) for your MPEG-1 encodes.

MPEG-2 does have its advantages over MPEG-1. For example MPEG-2 supports interlaced material so no need to deinterlace if your source is interlaced.

[segfault]

I usually encode a 40 Minute movie [1CD] at a bitrate of usually around 2000 [XSVCD] and they come out pretty good
A bitrate of 2000 is still within the official SVCD specification because the spec allows any VBR up to 2520. Unless you're using a non-standard resolution you're probably not making XSVCDs.

The best way to judge the difference is to do a few test encodes and compare. I find that the difference between MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 starts to disappear around 1.8-2Mbit/s, but that's largely a matter of opinion. But the fact that MPEG-2 scales better than MPEG-1 is not. :D

As Boulder said, a Google search should turn up some good documentation on it.

[DivXerouS]

the fact that MPEG-2 scales better than MPEG-1 is not.


I didn't quiet understand that...what your saying is that Mpeg2 is not superior to Mpeg1 ?


Lets say that I have a 2 hour long dvd Rip of Shakespere's Romeo & Juliet [lets say the original play], which obviously has no action, and has nothing but dialogues, so it would be best to convert it to a Mpeg1 with low bitrates due to the low motion scenes no ? BUT wouldn't it be even better to convert it to an Mpeg2 and get an even better quality ?....

_____________________________________________________________________

I was thinking about Kwag;s templates and how you can fit a "2 hour long movie" easily on 1 CD, I downloaded some of the templates and It says the file will be 1 GIG, are the templates compatible with low motion movies or high motion movies as well. I read a lot about the templates, many people criticzed him but I was thinking about trying them out, again...you got any ideas...?

[Boulder]

Originally posted by DivXerouS
I was thinking about Kwag;s templates and how you can fit a "2 hour long movie" easily on 1 CD, I downloaded some of the templates and It says the file will be 1 GIG, are the templates compatible with low motion movies or high motion movies as well. I read a lot about the templates, many people criticzed him but I was thinking about trying them out, again...you got any ideas...?

The templates are very good IMO. I've used them for converting TV captures, DivX/XviD files and DVDs to single-CD copies. Last week I put Star Trek - The Motion Picture on one CD with a resolution of 528x576. The movie is about 2h 10min and it looks extremely good despite the fact that the average bitrate is just over 700kbps:D Widescreen format and dark scenes in general makes it very compressible.

If you want more information, I suggest you head over the forum there and start reading..there are some very good guides over there which will help you get the best out of the encodes.

[segfault]

what your saying is that Mpeg2 is not superior to Mpeg1 ?
It depends on what you are doing. If you are making VCDs, yes. If you are making DVDs, no. It's a question of the right tool for the right job. For low resolution/low bitrate, MPEG-1 is superior. For higher resolutions/bitrates, MPEG-2 is better. The actual point at which one becomes preferable over the other is a matter of opinion and personal preference. I'm not sure how much simpler we can put it......
BUT wouldn't it be even better to convert it to an Mpeg2 and get an even better quality ?....
It depends on what you want to do. Using MPEG-2 will not automatically make your movie higher quality. If you don't mind having it on 5 or 6 CDs, then yes, you can encode it at 6 Mbit/s MPEG-2 and have a DVD quality movie. (Although most players can't spin CDs that fast....) If you want to get it on 1 CD, then your average bitrate will have to be 700-800 kbit/s, at which MPEG-1 will certainly yield better results.
I downloaded some of the templates and It says the file will be 1 GIG
You have to use file prediction and tune the CQ value to match the size of your MPEG to the size of your CD. There is a forum at kvcd.net devoted to file prediction, and it has detailed instructions on how to do it.

[symonjfox]

MPEG 2 is not always better than MPEG1 just because they were created for different use.

MPEG 1 is ok for VCDs (low res, quite low bitrate 1150 kbs).
MPEG 2 is ok for Broadcasts and DVDs (High res and high bitrate).

Try yourself: encode the same clip (352x288 @ 25 fps) using CBR MPEG1 1150kbs and CBR MPEG2 1150 kbs. The MPEG1 win the game!

Instead if you try to encode a full res clip (720x576 @ 25 fps) using the same bitrate, bigger than 2500 or 3000 kbs, the MPEG2 win (also because it can keep interlaced frames, giving higher quality than deinterlacing).

[DivXerouS]

so...is their a way to determine whether or not the file should be convereted to Mpeg1 or Mpeg2, or I guess it's a matter of opinion...other than that I understand exactly what your guys are saying, thanks a lot for the very useful information. :D

[symonjfox]

The way to determine if MPEG 1 is better or not, is your EYES!! If you feel it looks better in MPEG1 ... just do it.

Make some test ... take some short clips and try them.


I guess it's a matter of opinion...other than that I understand exactly what your guys are saying, thanks a lot for the very useful information.

It's easy. Formats are made just for 1 use.

For example, maybe you think that MP3 is surely better than MP2? You're wrong. Because MP3 was created to sound good in a bitrate near 128, 160 kbs, while MP2 was created to sound good over 192 kbs (Digital Audio Broadcast).

If you believe that you need to use MPEG2, try creating a NON-Standard SVCD (maybe your player will play it, like mine :D )

It's easy, just create an MPEG2 stream for SVCD, using the resolution of 352*288 @ 25 fps (for PAL). You can take advantage of the innovations of SVCD, so you can try to create an audio stream of 128 kbs (instead of 224) and use a Variable Bitrate for VIDEO (use 2 pass VBR to increase quality).
Your DVD player should play it, because this format should be DVD compilant.
I tried it few times and it worked.

[DivXerouS]

Thanks for the info...very helpful. :D