Temporal references and maestro..error

[nimrodim]

I encoded a videostream with cce at 23.976 with add sequence end as progressive.
I then did a pulldown with pulldown.exe with the following parametrs:
framrate 23.976
tff change field order - odd
mark entire stream - progressive
mark each frame - progressive
set drop frame flag for ntsc stream - true
aspect ratio 4:3

when trying to import the video stream into maestro i get the temporal references at gop error...
I checked previous threads about PVAstrumento - but it complains about an illegal stream..

What does this error mean exactly? does it originate from cce or after the pulldown?

Thanks in advance

Nim

[slk001]

Don't mark the entire stream as progressive (it's not).

Only use:
PROG_FRAME P
DROP_FRAME TRUE
FPS 29.97
(Surely you jest about your framerate of 23.976!)

Basically, your screwed up your file with pulldown. Delete the _pd.m2v file and try again. Try using the pulldown GUI - works great, lasts a long time.

[nimrodim]

Well i re-encoded the video stream at a different maximal rate and added add sequence end...then used the same pulldown - this time i didn't get any error messeges from maestro.
The question remains though which one of the two operations was responsible for eliminating the error?
By the way what is the maximal bitrate maestro allows for mpg elementary video streams to be?
And how do i estimate the maximal bitrate to set in cce - as after the pulldown the bitrate increases?

If anyone can enlighten me on any of these i would be glad...

Thanks in advance Nim

[nimrodim]

"(Surely you jest about your framerate of 23.976!)
Don't mark the entire stream as progressive (it's not). "

Well i would like to ask about these 2!
(considering i got it to work even with these parameters...)
I thought that fps in the gui was refering to the material you are feeding in - not what you expect to get out.
And as to the marking entire stream as progressive - i get your point - but what difference would it make with maestro or with the stand alone later on?

Nim
:confused:

[mpucoder]

The difference is that the pulldown flags take on an entirely different meaning for progressive streams (progressive sequence). Instead of top_field_first and repeat_first_field, the flags become a count of frames to be repeated.

[nimrodim]

Could you explain in a bit further detail what you meant by "a count of frames to be repeated" - does this mean every flag which is set as true will cause the previous frame to be repeated?
And what about the fps if the gui? who is correct me or slk001? - as (when i play back i get 29.976 fps).
And tff chanfe field order - what should that be on? odd or even?
And last question the temporal references error - would that be generated due to the incorrect pulldown?
I think we need a more in depth article about pulldown in doom9...

Well that all (Many questions - forgive me - i from a pal country)

Nim

[auenf]

Originally posted by nimrodim
I think we need a more in depth article about pulldown in doom9...


http://doom9.org/synch.htm

you mean that isnt indepth enough???

Enf...

[mpucoder]

I can only answer the question concerning the meaning of the flags, not pulldown.exe's use of them.
In an interlaced sequence top_field_first and repeat_first_field are field oriented, as one would expect. Each source frame consists of 2 fields, called "top" and "bottom" (equivalent to odd and even to those who are stuck in old NTSC definitions) repeat_first_field (rff) causes the first field to be displayed twice, in 2 different display frames. Whether that is the top or bottom field is determined by tff. Doom9's article on pulldown explains this better than I can in this limited space.

In a progressive sequence everything is frame oriented. The 2 flags are combined as follows:
tff rff
0 0 display frame 1 time (no repeat)
0 1 display frame 2 times
1 1 display frame 3 times

You'll notice there is an illegal value in there (tff=1, rff=0). If you use the normal sequence of 2 3 0 1 for each 4 frames several bad things happen. First is the illegal value (most likely the cause of Maestro's diagnostic, as this frame becomes invalid)
Second you turn 4 frames into 6 or 7 (depending on what is done with the invalid frame)

[nimrodim]

To MPUcoder
Well after reading that i decided to check again "Telecline explained - by robshot"
In the article it basically shows the following 4 sequence repeat for a basic pulldown:
T_F_F sequence: 1 0 0 1 then repeats itself 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 1
R_F_F sequence: 1 0 1 0 then repeats itself 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1

therefore i would have got 3,1,2,illegal (repeats conescutively)= which is 3 more frames for every repeating sequence ----> for 24 frames(1 sec) which are 6 repeating sequences i should have got an extra 3*6=18 extra frames on display which should have sent the film way out of sync (not even talking about the illegal combination).
This never happened.

And again i ask about the settings it the pulldown gui:
1. Should fps actually be 29.976 or 23.976?
2. tff-changes the field order odd or even - what does this mean?
3. i set all frames as progressive prog_frames=progressive? (And interlaced for prog_seq (the entire stream) as you have pointed out).

And again i aske about these:
By the way what is the maximal bitrate Maestro allows for mpg elementary video streams to be?
And how do i estimate the maximal bitrate to set in cce - as after the pulldown the bitrate increases? - would that be x=maximal bitrate before pulldown turn to x*(29/24) after pulldown?

Thanks
Nim

[slk001]

Pulldown does nothing to the bitrate. BR in is the same as BR out after pulldown.

You set the output framerate to 29.97. The reason that I believe that Maestro accepted it, was that you made an error in setting the framerate (ie, you used framrate 23.976), which the program ignored, and set 29.97, which is the default.

You desperately need the gui. Get it from GUIGUY.WMINDS.COM. Also, make sure that you have version 0.99D.

[nimrodim]

To Slk001 - got the GUI - thanks
From its readme "prog_frames [p, i] : marks each frame as progressive or interalced (by default, PULLDOWN marks all frames with an RFF as interlaced)"
So progressive prog_frames=progressive??? why set each frame to progressive?
tff-changes the field order odd or even - what does this mean?

By the way check with bitrateviewer before and after pulldown - you will see that bitrate increases - it has to as you are displaying 29.976 and 23.976 frames - i am NOT saying the bitrate in the encoded stream has changed - but that the bitrate output from the stream has increased...

Nim
:)

Ps. thanks for all the attention

[mpucoder]

If the bitrate viewer shows an increase, then there is something wrong. The display framerate for NTSC is always 29.97
Bitrate viewer should be looking at the source framerate, which should be 23.976 if pulldown is applicable. Setting the source framerate to 29.97 and adding pulldown is not an acceptable combination. It must be 29.97 with no pulldown, or 23.976 with pulldown for NTSC.

[nimrodim]

"Setting the source framerate to 29.97 and adding pulldown is not acceptable." - do you mean in the pulldown gui?
Nim

:)

[mpucoder]

No, I was speaking in respect to the DVd specs.

[slk001]

The Bitrate Viewer people are aware of this error where their program incorrectly shows the change in BR when pulldown is applied. They plan on correcting this in their next release.