No Time Code Display on Set Top Player

[BassPig]

Can someone confirm that encoding the MPEG2 stream with a starting timecode of 00:00:00:00 causes set top players not to display timecode?

I did some early authoring tests in which I used the default CinemaCraft timecode of 01:00:00:00 and though it was a simple test layout with one menu linking to one video with one scene/chapter change, the burned DVD-RW disc displayed time code in the Pioneer DV343.

Now that I am authoring a more complex project, in order to use chapter numbers exported from Premiere 6.5, I set CinemaCraft's time code to start at 00:00:00:00, as Scenarist would not allow scene times that preceded the start timecode of the MPEG stream. However, this burned DVD does not display timecode on the set top player. I am wondering if it is because I started the timecode at true zero, as I read somewhere, in these forums perhaps, something to the effect that DVD timecode starts at 00:58:30:00 or something like that.

Or, is it more likely that the arrangement of PGCs and VTS links has disabled timecode?

Anyone?

[Vulcan]

My experience is that you can only have one videofile in each VTS in order to have the time code show up on a set top player. If your project is broken down in separate vidoefiles and these are put in the same VTS time code is not displayed. To get around the problem you either have to merge the files into one or to put them in separate VTS. If you go for the latter route the files will not play seamingless.

[BassPig]

I think I understand.. for example, I have a structure with a first PGC containing the usual logos/intro. That leads to a main menu, which is a motion menu that has two links. Each link goes to another short video clip providing a reaction to the user input. The cell post commands in each reaction clip lead to the first cell in their respective videos.

Menu choice #1 has three options.. and here I chose to take a program of alternating music and sermons and make 3 versions: just the music, just the mass, and everything together. I used two PGCs to accomplish this, but all under one VTS. Is that where I went wrong? I'm not sure that what I'm attempting to do is even possible across multiple VTS.

As I started to mention, the first menu choice leads to a still menu with 3 choices for choosing the playback order of the mass video. I put a scene at every song and sermon beginning. So I could alternate and link the odd and even cells together to form two versions of the program by letting the viewer rearrange.
In a separate PGC, I put another copy of the entire program, but just let it play seamlessly.

Back to the main menu, the other choice goes to another still menu with links to various chapters on a second program. This is also in another PGC. The last item on that menu links to a third program in yet another PGC.

There are three original MPEG videos for the main programs.
There is a short MPEG for the main menu.
There is another very short MPEG with one chapter/scene for the two possible menu choice results (zoom the left or right menu button to show action).
There is also an intro logo animation for the firstplay.

Firstplay is in FirstPGC.
Everything else is in VTS_1

I guess this is why there is no timecode.

How might I break this up into multiple VTS modules without loosing the interrelationships I want to maintain between programs?

I'm attaching a cropped view of the essential structure for illustration, though the whole project will not even fit on a 1920x1440 screen.

[BassPig]

I'm rearranging the program structure so that each feature is in its own VTS. However, with this structure, I cannot link a button from the main menu in the first VTS to each separate features in separate VTS domains.

There must be a way to have timecode and make the disc searchable by timecode entry and yet have a complex navigational structure.

Is it even possible to link from one menu (let's say all my menus are in VTS_1) to various program streams in different VTS (to ensure continuity of timecode)? My attempts are resulting in the circle with the slash through it, indicating it's not a valid place to link.

[Vulcan]

I can't see the structure and I'm not quite sure if I understand what you have done and/or what you are trying to achive. I would put "first play" in a separate VTS (I guess you want this to play when the disc starts up then go to the main menu) and your main video(s) in different VTS(s).

If your main video is split between different files you will have to put each file in a different VTS in order to view the time code. If you have the videofiles in separate VTS you will not be able to play seamingless from video1 to video2 but if this isn't important (i.e. if the viewer is to be returned to the meny after watching video1 or 2) this is no big deal. By creating "dummy" menues it is possible to route/direct the viewer between video1 and video2 (a button in menu 1 will take you to menu 2 and vice versa).

You can have many scenes within a single file but I don't know if you can make/force a selection to play scene 1 - 5 (out of 10) and then return to the meny and let you play scene 6 - 10 or 1 - 10 but considering that Scenarist is said to be the best authoring program it would be a shame if you couldn't. I guess that someone more familiar with the program need to step in and sort this out.

If my understanding of what you are trying to do and what you have done is correct I think that this can be achieved even if all the footage is combinded into one single videofile (thus saving space on the disc).

[Vulcan]

Now I saw the structure.

As regards the menus I think that your Main menu shall be in the VideoManager folder (or its language folder, can't remember) and that your VTSMenues" shall be in the language folder (not the video/title folder) of each separate VTS. You can link from Main menu to each separate VTS meny and from the VTS menu to the Main Menu. To link from one menu in one VTS to a menu in a different VTS you have to route through an dummy menu (a menu that you place in the language folder of the VideoManager. The pre command of that meny should be to go to the VTS menu in the other VTS).

[BassPig]

I found a way to link from a common menu to programs in various VTS domains. The showstopper is that when I go to burn the DVD, I find out my project size has been multiplied by the number of VTS domains.

I am testing with a one-hour stream in two VTS domains, linked from a common menu. The project size is 7795.8MB--double the project when it was all in one VTS.

I wonder what other means of maintaining timecode at the player exist without doubling the size of the project?

Attached is a screen shot of the new hierarchy. I tests okay in simulation, but I doubt I will be able to burn a DVD to actually verify that timecode is being displayed.

[BassPig]

Originally posted by Vulcan
I can't see the structure and I'm not quite sure if I understand what you have done and/or what you are trying to achive.

To answer that quickly, I was trying to give the viewer some options as to the order and sequence of playback.

One: 1,3,5,7,9, etc. cells
Two: 2,4,6,8,10, etc. cells
Three: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, etc. cells


To do this seems to require that I create two copies of the video. One copy has all the even cells linked to eachother and all the odd cells linked to eachother, so, depending on which entry point viewer picks, either the odd-numbered or even-numbered cells play, creating a different version of the program.

The second VTS would contain another copy of the same video, but with natural flow from cell to cell.

Problem is, putting the same program in separate VTS domains causes the data size to double for that feature.

[hendrix]

@BassPig
Your Menu should go into the English language folder either in the VideoManager or VTS_1 folder your in that instead of the Title folder.
I put my menus in the language folder under VTS_1 and the main video in the Title folder...hope this helps

hendrix

[BassPig]

It looks like I can have my top level menu under a PGC that is under a language under the VMG domain, but if I try this under a VTS domain I cannot link to such a menu. My workaround was to place the menu under the Title folder under the VTS, because a menu under the VMG domain can link only to the title folder in the VTS domain (anywhere else and I get the circle with a slash through it).

I'm burning a test DVD now. This disc will allow me to see if putting program 1 and 2 in their own VTS folders will allow timecode to display on the player.

I encountered one problem with the structure of this disk and that's the fact that a menu in VTS_2 needs to link to a video in VTS_3. So far, I have not been able to work around the fact that I cannot find a valid way to link across domains, or even back to a dummy PGC in the VMG domain. So I discarded this title set for the sake of testing the timecode issue with the other two.

I may have to call each title set from the VMG domain menu, if I cannot find a way to jump across domains in VTS space. That will require redesigning a two option motion menu and link animations into a 3 option motion menu with 3 link animations, something I'd like to avoid. :-(

I feel like McCoy in Star Trek, when he had to put Spock's brain back together... so much information and rushing to do the task before I forget how!

[BassPig]

My scheme of putting each video sequence in its own VTS failed to yield timecode on the player, although in the simulator I get timecode. Hmmm....

None of the VTS have timecode. Even the one that has a single video sequence with no tricky rearrangement of scenes.

I'll have to forego the timecode for the current project, but in the future I'd like to learn how to do this in such a manner as to keep the timecode intact.

[BassPig]

Here is a screenshot of my attempt to put streams in their own VTS. I realize VTS_1 has more than one stream--it's unavoidable, given that I want to keep the disc to a single layer. But the second VTS also has no timecode. Why is this?

--attached--

[bira]

Instead of creating 3 VTS with the same video, each playing a different sequence, can you create only one VTS with all the scenes and then use GRPM's to set the play sequence?

Menu option 1 -> You would set a GRPM1 to 1
Menu option 2 -> You would set a GRPM1 to 2
Menu option 3 -> You would set a GRPM1 to 3

Then after the first cell of the sequence is played you would test GRPM1.
If it is 1 then play cell 3.
If it is 2 then play cell 4.
If it is 3 then play cell 2.

After the second cell is played you would test GRPM again.
If it is 1 then play cell 5.
If it is 2 then play cell 6.
If it is 3 then play cell 3.

At least, it makes sense and you'll not get an oversized dvd. But I don't know if you'll get the timecodes. I don't even know if it is going to work at all!

[digitalvideo]

just for time code problem :

Never put more than one pgc in a title !!!!

For example in your vts2 create a title1 for pgc 2_2 and put all of your menu in the english part !!!!

If you have two films put them in separate title !!!

If you want send me your project as zip and i can look at it !!!

[hendrix]

@BassPig
Just a suggestion regarding your structure
I would put the MW Comms logo in the English folder under the VideoManager and put the menus in the English folder under VTS_01, VTS_02, etc. vice under the Title folder that you have. The Language folders are usually used for menus.

@digitalvideo
you can have more than one pgc in the title - thats what i had to do with lord of the rings extended to fit on one dvd. it worked fine.
Silence of the Lambs Criterion Edition has over 120pgcs in the title
i dont know why it had that many since most of them had nothing and were dummy pgcs. probably the authorer was just bored.

hendrix

[digitalvideo]

Yes you can have it !!! but there is no time code on the dvd player.

If you make it at pg level there is no problem !!!

[BassPig]

Originally posted by bira
Instead of creating 3 VTS with the same video, each playing a different sequence, can you create only one VTS with all the scenes and then use GRPM's to set the play sequence?

Menu option 1 -> You would set a GRPM1 to 1
Menu option 2 -> You would set a GRPM1 to 2
Menu option 3 -> You would set a GRPM1 to 3

Then after the first cell of the sequence is played you would test GRPM1.
If it is 1 then play cell 3.
If it is 2 then play cell 4.
If it is 3 then play cell 2.

After the second cell is played you would test GRPM again.
If it is 1 then play cell 5.
If it is 2 then play cell 6.
If it is 3 then play cell 3.

At least, it makes sense and you'll not get an oversized dvd. But I don't know if you'll get the timecodes. I don't even know if it is going to work at all!


I'm going to play with this intriguing idea. It will be an opportunity to use some higher functions in the DVD spec. I may have some questions and requests for guidance if I get in too deep with this function which I am inexperienced with at the moment. Here goes!

[BassPig]

As part of my attempt to 'simplify' the layout in one VTS, I thought about some suggestions I received here that I might try GPRMs instead of making two copies of the PGC and linking them with type 1 commands in different ways.

Objective:
To let viewer have 3 choices:
1. play even numbered cells
2. play odd numbered cells
3. play all cells in PGC

Initially, I made two copies and linked them manually, cell to cell. But that probably resulted in loss of time code display on the player.

So now I am exploring GPRMs, but am running into my knowledge limitations here.

Hypothesis:
That I might take each cell command and use a compare command to see if it matches the immediate GPRM set in the menu command.
Problem:
All cells in the PGC take on the same command as the first one that I programmed. I can't seem to have the next cell have an independant comparison test.
The idea was that I'd have menu button one set GPRM0 to immediate value 1, button 2 set GPRM1 to value 2 and button 3 set GPRM2 value to 3. Then I would set the cell commands in each cell to compare and do a "if GPRM==0 then jump to cell such and such" and then the cell that IT jumped to also compares, but has a DIFFERENT jump to cell value. But here's the problem: every cell seems to inherit the last value I set for the cell I programmed just previous. So all commands send me back to that cell and the concept falls apart.

Does anyone understand my gibberish (it's almost 5am and I've not gotten any sleep yet) and have an idea as to what I'm trying to do and where my programming method is lacking?
This is turning into rocket science. I was a camera operator before I got pressed into DVD mastering. I only had to worry about gain, pedestal, black balance, white balance, chroma phase and focus. But here in the DVD world, there seem to be thousands of things to worry about. Maybe one of the wizards on this forum can set me straight here and clear up the mystery?

[hendrix]

Originally posted by BassPig
I only had to worry about gain, pedestal, black balance, white balance, chroma phase and focus. But here in the DVD world, there seem to be thousands of things to worry about. Maybe one of the wizards on this forum can set me straight here and clear up the mystery?

dont forget the vectorscope and the waveform analyzer
hehe..i too work in a tv studio