Which is a better capture chip, Philips SAA7108E or SAA7114H?

[Fox Mulder]

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/cgi-bin/pldb/pip/SAA7108E/V1/

http://www-us.semiconductors.philips.com/cgi-bin/pldb/pip/SAA7114H/

Maybe the second one? Pros/Cons like capture quality/TV out quality?
I think TV Tool supports only SAA7108.
Thanks in advance for any help.:)

[Fox Mulder]

Maybe this post belongs to PC Hardware forum? :confused:

[cjv]

Sorry, wish I could help out.

Actually, I bet most people in here use BT8x8 or ATI for capture. Maybe that's why you're not getting any replies?

cjv

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

philips chips tend to produce blurry images,both on video in (i can say this for sure,as i've seen some huff captures made with them,etc.),and tv-out (this i can't say for sure,but find it on tvtool site.....seems like conexant is best if you wan't sharp tv-out images....)
perhaps better solution is cheap bt8x8 + some tv-out chip based on
conexant's hardware....(as recommended by tvtool author himself..)
combo cards are tempting only because of advertising.....

if you can,test and compare to bt(conexant)
many people have bt devices and would probably be willing to send you some short huff samples.....
philips users?
ask users of asus combo boards.....

i prefer conexant (as drivers are tweaked to the max,you have many programs that support bt8x8 directly etc.)........
if you're gonna capture,watch tv,watch divx, i think conexant is cheapest and very nice value for the money.......
(it's much older than philips solutions,so many people worked on drivers and got really deep into it.....)

[fasttimes]

The only place that I know of that pits the new Philips SAA7134HL with the Conexant CX23881, is here (http://anipeg.yks.ne.jp/topic.html)

[cjv]

Interesting screenshots. Appears the CX23881 just has the contrast upped a bit, but what about those green/blue dots at the bottom?

Do you understand Japanese..or anyone who can interpret the site's impression?

cjv

[fasttimes]

Bable Fish give the following:


02.07.23 Philips SAA7134HL vs CONEXANT CX23881


* Certain the certain chip which has been adopted with the SK and the certain chip which has been adopted with the certain IO, taking the same picture with each one, you tried comparing.
* Always the animation picture, when it is the ??? temporary, being to be gotten angry, also photograph taken on the spot is prepared.
* Those where it places here considering indication, have become JPEG type, but being the non-pressure reduction BMP to prepare, the person who has interest please.

* Non-pressure reduction BMP data SAA7134HL CX23881

And:


* Big the difference, the.SAA7134HL which is the scale 15 - 235, as for the CX23881 the scale it makes in 0 - 255.
* Depending, the SAA7134HL is visible like the DV to be thin.
* And copy guard (macro vision) as for the.SAA7134HL where the processing with detection differs brightness rose, as for the CX23881 brightness went down. Quite it is symmetrical.
* After, as for this you do not understand whether it depends on environment, but it becomes the enlarged view of taking in the color bar.

and, last:


* Being not to understand, whether it is something this due to some cause that or it is about you cannot say at all. (also future the ‚Á you verify) <- whatever degree doing, it becomes same, - (the tear


* Data: When the color bar (ADVC-100), the bench * building (the VX2000), the river no island (GR-DVF10), the ??? it does, the ??? (the SUCCESS), the CG picture (K), the ??? (Victor)


* Hunuaa use and picture quality parameter et cetera utilize all default values.
* Note writing: The result it is one example to the last, everything becomes the similar result with does not limit.
* Certain the IO you have written, but the card which has been used is not something of the certain IO corporation, to the last it is intention of tip/chip efficiency comparison.

[cjv]

And for the second question...is there anyone who can understand Babelfish? :D

Just kidding. :) I appreciate you taking the time to run it through a translator. I actually did before I posted, but it still came out (to me at least) somewhat incomprehensible. I was hoping someone (you) spoke the language.

I am mostly concerned about the bottom right image with the blue/green dots. I have been seeing that pattern in my captures when I zoom in, and I figured it was just RF interference from my system. But now it appears it may be a flaw in the chipset.
Thanks for the link,

cjv

[Fox Mulder]

Thanks guys. Maybe I will get an ASUS V9280 VS or a V9280S card. The V9280S has the SAA7108E chip and the V9280 VS has the SAA7114H chip, but will see if I can get a better alternative.

[Karyudo]

I'm also interested in what capture chip might be best, so I took some time to translate the Japanese web page cited above, and make a PDF (hyperlinks intact) of the original with a paraphrased translation.

Unfortunately, it's 7xxKB, so I can't attach it here. But it's up on my ftp server [66.183.4.70, port 21, login: doom9 p/w: doom9] until about 2003-01-31. After that, please PM me, and I will send it along by e-mail.

I've also got a translated PDF of another link from the same Japanese guy, which gives some details on the capture cards available (to him) in Japan.

As an aside, I've done a bit of research myself, and it looks like the FlyVideo 3000 (available here in YVR for about $90CAD) also uses the Philips SAA7134H chip -- same as the "SK" card in the Japanese comparison. Might have to try it out...

Finally, I've also PDF'ed a video card list that gives what VIVO chipset is used for various cards. The list came from some Linux site, so I've clipped off the columns we Windows-based cappers don't need :D

Enjoy!

Karyudo

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

i think philips chips use some pre-processing (denoise ie. smoothing)
filter,so it's not quite accurate capturing......
all philips screenshots look smeared....
if there's no way to avois this (turning off pre-filter,or sharpening by the means of driver itself) philips lost this one!
[ i think the guy (yoshina) doesn't speak english,but you can contact him if this
info is of any value to him.... ]

thanks for the translation........

also the guy should use same capture codec on both devices (if not,then there's no point in testing...)
this only goes to prove it's the same quality as with asus combo boards+philips capture chips....
philips still overdoing the image filtering.....

[fasttimes]

I get Access Denied trying to go to the FTP sub-directory. The root is empty!

[Karyudo]

OK, I've also added the raw samples from the Japanese site. I've re-packaged them as zip files, because I'm not sure everyone can deal with LZH easily.

@fasttimes: I dunno what the prob is. The root is indeed empty (by design), but I tested everything myself (i.e. by logging in to my own ftp site with my ftp client, as doom9/doom9) and it was working. Maybe too many people at once? I'll bump it up from three, and see how that goes. If you still have problems, lemme know.

Karyudo

[cjv]

Hey,

Thanks for translating, great work. I checked out the comparisons PDF.

Any idea on what cap. card you're going to get..or did you find any good sources out West here yet?

cjv

[fasttimes]

I'm sorry, but I still can't get into the \FTP subdirectory, without getting an 501 Access Denied error. If you keep an FTP log, you should see my 501 errors. Could you just email the PDFs? Thanks.

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

Originally posted by fasttimes
I'm sorry, but I still can't get into the \FTP subdirectory, without getting an 501 Access Denied error. If you keep an FTP log, you should see my 501 errors. Could you just email the PDFs? Thanks.

i couldn't do it with IE too,but that's where "smartFTP" kicks in.......

(it's freeware too..)

[Karyudo]

@cjv:

Thanks for translating, great work. I checked out the comparisons PDF.


It was sort of tough to translate, because the original Japanese is sort of vague and unfocused already, and because I don't understand Japanese *that* well! But I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who is getting some use out of it.


Any idea on what cap. card you're going to get..or did you find any good sources out West here yet?


I've scoured TCP, and even checked all the advertisers' websites (some of them are *so-o-o* bad), but I can only find the TV@nywhere (cheapest was $83CAD) with a Conexant chip. The FlyVideo 3000 (with the SAA7134 chip) is available at at least one place, for $89.

I'm half-tempted to buy a TV@nywhere and a FV3k locally, send away for an XCap and Asus TV tuner, run some quick tests, and then return/send back whatever three cards I don't like. But like everyone, I'm cash-strapped and lazy, so I doubt that will all come to pass.

I have looked at the raw BMP files, and I think I like the 7134 captures better. Smoother -- but I don't think artificially so -- and using the NTSC colour gamut (15-235). The 23881 caps look like they could use some adjustment to line the fields up better horizontally. Let's put it this way: the first thing I'd probably do to a -881 cap is to try to get it to look more like the -7134.

Anyway, those are my thoughts at the moment; they're bound to change again before I pick a card and actually put down some cash for it.

@fasttimes:

You got the e-mail, right?

Karyudo

[fasttimes]

Originally posted by Karyudo
@fasttimes:
You got the e-mail, right?Yeah. fasttimes@mochamail.com

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

btw. where's "YVR"

[Fox Mulder]

Thank you very much, Karyudo; I received the mail with your translations.:)

[Karyudo]

@^^-+I4004+-^^:

Where's YVR, you ask? Well, about 3 hours driving north of SEA, and about 3 hours flying north of SFO. I kid you not! :D

@Fox Mulder:

Good to hear. Sorry there's not much meat there...

@fasttimes:

Oops! My mistake. I thought I'd already sent the stuff to you, but that was Fox. :P I'll send it right now...

[Fox Mulder]

Well all I've found in a site called "Bench House" was that "the SAA7114H is the succesor of the well-known SAA7108E" and that "the features of this chip are a video out up to 1280x1024, and an improved video in."

After reading the .PDFs in Philips.com I'm even more confused because all I know is that "the SAA7108E is a new multi-standard video decoder and encoder chip, offering high quality video input and TV output processing as required by PC-99 specifications. It enables hardware manufacturers to implement versatile video functions on a significantly reduced printed-circuit board area at very competitive costs" and the SAA7114H is a high quality video decoder-scaler.
So I thought, fine seems like the SAA7108E is a hardware encoder-decoder and the SAA7114H is only a hardware decoder-scaler, but then I read a review of a videocard in TomsHardware that indicates the included SAA7108E does all the capturing by software(WDM), relying completely on the CPU and that even an Athlon XP 1800+ is not able to capture at full resolution!.:confused:
Here are the datasheets:

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/datasheets/SAA7108E_7109E_1.pdf

http://www-us.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/datasheets/SAA7114H_1.pdf