ffvfw

[athos]

well i think it's time to start a new thread about this. iäm not sure it belongs in the xvid forum, but the ffdshow discussion has always been here so i'll post this here too. I made a new build of ffvfw today, download from http://athos.web1000.com/ffvfw.html
From the changelog it seems 2-pass has been fixed.

For those who dont know, this is milans vfw implementation of the encoding part of libavcodec/ffmpeg. The decoding part is ffdshow. These two can work more or less together.

Update: I did a small test with 2-pass qpel and it worked alright. B-frames in 2-pass does not seem to work yet though.

[-h]

I have been testing recent builds of ffmpeg, and am quite eager to try porting libavcodec's fDCT over to XviD - it appears to be less accurate (a full 1 dB lower PSNR than XviD when quantizer is fixed), but bitrate savings are quite significant and it's an effective pre-filter.

Trellis quantization also gives significant quality improvements at a given bitrate - around 0.3 dB in my tests, very useful for the 2nd pass.

-h

[sam_b]

Cheers athos.

I have been testing (your previous build) recently as well, and am very very impressed by it, particularly its qpel - although I suspect 90% of libav mpeg4 is cut-and-paste XviD code.

Were there problems with the 2-pass qpel? I just did Arlington Rd. with Qpel and I though it did a very fine job. B-frames just crash for me, or just plain look bad.

-h, could you explain trellis quants to me? I have yet to find a good explanation on the net. Also, how are they meant to be used. I tried on a 1pass-quality encoding, and it seemed to reduce the quality slightly after reducing the quality setting to match the filesizes.

[NiTroGen]

For anyone having problems with downloading from http://athos.web1000.com/ffvfw.html, you can also get all builds of ffvfw since April 2002 from this unofficial site (http://homepages.pathfinder.gr/ffvfw/) of ffvfw that I've created.
Thanks Athos for the new build. I'm looking forward to finishing my XviD encoding of "MIB2" and testing ffvfw.

[athos]

Originally posted by sam_b
Were there problems with the 2-pass qpel? I just did Arlington Rd. with Qpel and I though it did a very fine job.
I did not try 2-pass for the previous build, but the changelog mentions 2-pass so i assume something has been done in this area.
B-frames just crash for me, or just plain look bad.

Crashes for me too

[sam_b]

I cannot reach ffvfw from virtualdub. It does not appear in the codec list for me. Reinstalling the previous version makes it appear again. If I copy the dll from the new ffvfw, install the old one, and then copy back the new dll into the system32 dir it still doesn't appear in vdub(mod). I have tried uninstalling before reinstalling. Any ideas?

[Suikun]

Originally posted by sam_b
Cheers athos.

I have been testing (your previous build) recently as well, and am very very impressed by it, particularly its qpel - although I suspect 90% of libav mpeg4 is cut-and-paste XviD code.

[...]


libavcodec is a part of ffmpeg, which is yet another MPEG-4 implementation (see ffmpeg.sourceforge.net). It was developed before XviD :)

[Suikun]

On another note, this version of ffvfw can cause macroblocks to become pink over time when not using the original MPEG-4 encoder (like MP42 and so on).
On pans macroblocks slowly get pink...looks like a DCT error accumulating over time...

[-h]

This version of ffvfw has a QPel bug which performs HV interpolation incorrectly. It has since been fixed in ffmpeg's CVS.

Most of the code people here use (MPEG-4 specific) was written by Michael of the ffmpeg team - none of it is from XviD, and most of the structure is radically different too.

Perhaps try this paper (http://www.ee.ucla.edu/~iap/facultypublications/villasenor/villasenor_2000_TIP_9_8_1431.pdf) for a description of trellis quantization. I tested by performing a 1st pass without trellis, and performing two second passes - one without trellis, one with, and comparing PSNR of the identically-sized output files.

-h

[easyfab]

Whao!
I 've D/L the new version and made little tests.
(Xvid has a lot of parameters to play with but ffvfw has much more :)but i don't know the most of them (X1 ? diamonds 2 or 6 ? ...). i think i must go to the ffmpeg faq's for have the answers.)

The tests:
xvid,divx,ffvfw codecs
1)
all codecs with basic parameters (no b-frames, q-pel ...)and 2 pass encode
10 sec action and 20 sec normal scene
bitrate ~250kbs and ~750kbs.
Decoder ffdshow without PP
Results FOR ME 1)ffvfw 2)XVID 3)Divx in 250kbs
Results FOR ME 1)XVID 2)ffvfw 3)Divx in 750kbs
2)
Same but with b-frames enable @ ~750kbs
Results 1)xvid 2)divx 3)ffvfw
I think the b-frames code in ffvfw in not completly implemented

Conclusion : The ffvfw codec is and could be an alternative to Xvid and other mpeg4 codecs in few times if it progress at this rythm.

[sam_b]

@Suikun
I am aware of what libavcodec and ffmpeg are and I know they are quite old. It's just I didn't think that MPEG4 was a significant part of it, and I though it was a (relatively) recent addition. libavcodec's capabilities amaze me, it really can seem do pretty much anything. mplayer too. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

It it's MPEG-4 code really not based on even OpenDivX (which is pretty old)?

@-h

cheers for the link, but I get a 404 Not Found from it.
I'll give trellis a second go. When I figure out how to install it.... :D

[athos]

sam_b> did you put msvcr70.dll in Windows/system(32)?
http://www.dll-files.com/dllindex/dll-files.shtml?msvcr70

[sam_b]

Still no go I'm afraid. Can install 0401 and it works fine. 1104 just makes the codec disappear from the list after restarting vdubmod. My win2k SP2 is only 1 day old! Why must it taunt me so!

[easyfab]

@sam_b

I had the same pb in capture mode.
For me, i just unselected "unable image processing" and it works again
(colorspace pbs perhaps?)

[-h]

cheers for the link, but I get a 404 Not Found from it.

Goodness look at that. You can still access the google cache if you search for "trellis quantization dct", it's the top match.

-h

[birdy]

WOW!
I am really impressed! I have been trying all the builds of divx and other codecs one by one and I didn't know about ffvfw!

What is this damn Libavcodec???
The quality of what I captured with it is amazing!!!
Please guys, point me to a guide (how to, options explained etc) for this and help me figure it out.

Also I don't know if its me having problems or a bug but in iuvcr I get load of access vialation errors when setting the codec!~:(

[athos]

Originally posted by birdy
What is this damn Libavcodec???
The quality of what I captured with it is amazing!!!
Please guys, point me to a guide (how to, options explained etc) for this and help me figure it out.

libavcodec is part of ffmpeg, http://ffmpeg.sourceforge.net/

[birdy]

Originally posted by athos
sam_b> did you put msvcr70.dll in Windows/system(32)?
http://www.dll-files.com/dllindex/dll-files.shtml?msvcr70


it's looking for msvcp70.dll too! and here is the link:
http://www.dll-files.com/dllindex/dll-files.shtml?msvcp70

After adding both dll's it worked for me :) and what a surprise!
Between the build from 2003 01 04 and the 2003 01 11 there is so much change and improvment!!!

If the guy or guys involved in this project continue the job at this speed I guess there is a damn promissing futur for ffvfw.

hehe I am so exited about this that I want to talk about it! But there are so many options with it that I have to test that I better keep the talking for later with a little more experience and avoid saying some stupid things ;)

Only thing I can say for now is that it's really worth that all of you give it a try and you will be surprised!

[NeVeRLiFt]

I know your testing it with captures Birdy using the Cyberlink filter ;) And I know how nice your captures look. But how much smaller or better does it get than using XviD??? I use XviD and the Cyberlink filter and have files that are just over 2mb for 1min sample using a 512x384 res and that quality is as good as a SVCD capture? Are you getting 1mb for 1min with this?

Whats the avg for the size of a 5min capture?

(and I know the size depends on whats happening in the scenes but I usually avg 3-8mb most times, with you PAL based satellite using S-video you must be having a better time of it than me)

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42088

posted here about the way we capture using XviD and people liked it :D

[sam_b]

Thankyou Birdy!!

[birdy]

hey Neverlift :) nice to see you here m8.
Well I guess if there is one here who know me well it's you.
As you know I capture my files to 768X576 and the file size is not the first issu for me. My goal is to make 1movie fit on 2 Cd's so I can preserve the maximum possible quality. But what I can say about size improuvment with this codec is that for the same source and same picture I get about 1 to 1.5mb/m less file size with this codec compared to xvid. (my captures are normaly ment to be arround 10 to max 12 MB/M)

What I found very interesting with this codec was all the options and possibilities it gives you to configure it and also the speed of development of this codec! Seems these guys are really putting time and working hard on it!

Anyway it all seems very promissing and I am ready to bet on it as becoming a successful and popular codec.

There is Only one wish I have and its that codec developers try also to optimize there codecs for direct capture too! Ofcours this is possible and we get very good quality already with the existing codecs. But it seems that encoding(Converting) is what they are all mostly focused on for now.

[-h]

But what I can say about size improuvment with this codec is that for the same source and same picture I get about 1 to 1.5mb/m less file size with this codec compared to xvid. (my captures are normaly ment to be arround 10 to max 12 MB/M)

I don't understand - how are you capturing? Fixed bitrate or fixed quantizer? The fDCT function in libavcodec is less accurate, so file size (and detail) is lower at a given quantizer than XviD. If ffmpeg is smaller with fixed bitrate encoding, something is wrong with rate control.

What I found very interesting with this codec was all the options and possibilities it gives you to configure it and also the speed of development of this codec! Seems these guys are really putting time and working hard on it!

Michael does put a lot of effort into ffmpeg. The modular nature of supporting multple codecs means most options *have* to be configurable. Sometimes this is a problem.

Anyway it all seems very promissing and I am ready to bet on it as becoming a successful and popular codec.

It already is - it's just taken windows users a while to figure it out :)

There is Only one wish I have and its that codec developers try also to optimize there codecs for direct capture too! Ofcours this is possible and we get very good quality already with the existing codecs. But it seems that encoding(Converting) is what they are all mostly focused on for now.

Not really, ffmpeg is designed for capturing as well. There's not much you can do to speed it up, apart from resorting to inferior motion estimation modes like zero vectors.

-h

[Dali Lama]

Wow, a lot of settings to understand in the latest ffvfw.

I was wondering is there any information I can read up on the different Motion Estimation routines and Masking techniques?

Also, is the MPEG-4 Encoder without B-frames and QPel standard MPEG-4? How about with B and Q?

Thanks all for re-introducing this interesting and high quality MPEG-4 codec.

Dali

[AlphaDivxMovies]

There ain`t much information unless you search google for every bit of optional parameters in ffvfw.
Where do they hang out? Do they provide some explanation to what is happening or we have only the changelog? It`s hard to test something you know nothing about!

[slavickas]

nice link on settings test
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1478400&forum_id=1506

[sillKotscha]

sorry mates,

I've tried different days, times, both websites but I can't download it... either site not found or a fabulous websearch :confused:

where may I get it??

regards Sill

[NiTroGen]

Originally posted by sillKotscha
sorry mates,

I've tried different days, times, both websites but I can't download it... either site not found or a fabulous websearch :confused:

where may I get it??

regards Sill
Just checked my site and guess what... It was found! Sorry, but I don't know what's the problem. Try this one (http://62.103.124.5/ffvfw/ffvfw-20030111.exe). Does it work?

[Assault]

I have the same problem as sillKotscha. I cannot download ffvfv neither by Athos' link nor by NiTroGen's. NiTroGen's new link doesn't work either. :(
I don't know whether it's important but we are both from Germany. Just a thought. :confused:

Regards
Assault

[molerus]

Hello folks!

I've just started using ffvfw and I must say I have some petty troubles and one BIG problem:( . The file I have encoded cannot be loaded into VDub. It says either that video frame are corrupted or crashes.

What should I do?????

Regards
Maciek

[unixfs]

Hi,

afair older versions of ffvfw were supposed to be compiled with with mingw/msys but when I try it I get this error in the dll-build part:

make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/nico/ffvfw/src/ffmpeg/libavcodec'
dllwrap --mno-cygwin --target=i386-mingw32 \
-o ffvfw.dll -def ./driverproc.def config.o driverproc.o codec.o 2pass.o config.res.o \
-Lffmpeg/libavcodec -lavcodec_enc \
-Lxvid -lxvidcore \
-lgdi32 -lcomdlg32 -lwinmm -lcomctl32 \
-L/usr/lib/mingw -lcrtdll \
/usr/lib/mingw/dllcrt1.o -lmingw32
make: *** [ffvfw.dll] Error 1



Can anyone help me to solve it, please?

[Koke]

Originally posted by Assault
I have the same problem as sillKotscha. I cannot download ffvfv neither by Athos' link nor by NiTroGen's. NiTroGen's new link doesn't work either. :(
I don't know whether it's important but we are both from Germany. Just a thought. :confused:

Regards
Assault

Don`t right click->save target, try left click.

[Koke]

Originally posted by molerus
Hello folks!

I've just started using ffvfw and I must say I have some petty troubles and one BIG problem:( . The file I have encoded cannot be loaded into VDub. It says either that video frame are corrupted or crashes.

What should I do?????

Regards
Maciek

Set fourcc to xvid and when done open it in AVIC, set fourcc
description to xvid and voila, you have an xvid avi!

[sillKotscha]

Originally posted by Koke
Don`t right click->save target, try left click.

you're really one of those funny guys : lol : :D

I gave up trying to download ffvfw... although I even have 3 possibilities now to download, it still won't work...

- Sill

[sam_b]

You want it emailing?

[Assault]

@ Koke
I could finally download it a few minutes ago. I don't know why but until now my computer wasn't able to load the pages. The direct link didn't work either until today but it was definately not because I did a right click. :D :D
Thanks anyway. ;)

Regards
Assault

[sillKotscha]

you have a PM :D

[easyfab]

Originally posted by unixfs
Hi,

afair older versions of ffvfw were supposed to be compiled with with mingw/msys but when I try it I get this error in the dll-build part:

make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/nico/ffvfw/src/ffmpeg/libavcodec'
dllwrap --mno-cygwin --target=i386-mingw32 \
-o ffvfw.dll -def ./driverproc.def config.o driverproc.o codec.o 2pass.o config.res.o \
-Lffmpeg/libavcodec -lavcodec_enc \
-Lxvid -lxvidcore \
-lgdi32 -lcomdlg32 -lwinmm -lcomctl32 \
-L/usr/lib/mingw -lcrtdll \
/usr/lib/mingw/dllcrt1.o -lmingw32
make: *** [ffvfw.dll] Error 1



Can anyone help me to solve it, please?

What version of the sources have you? because with the lastest i think you must modify the makefile. And now i just can't access to the cvs (with wincvs or with ie) is there a sourceforge prob or what?

[Koke]

Thanks for laughs but this was partly sincere
advice. Why?
When I have tried to open link in a new window
another page opened, normally having no near relation
to FFvfw so, at first, I`ve thought link is no good one.
But then when I clicked it directly there it was!

I know that you knew, but, on the other hand,
one never knows...

:rolleyes:

[molerus]

Hello

Thx Koke for your reply.
I was changing fourcc to XVID earlier, but I was doing it with Nic's XviD installed. It seems that with Koepi's build everything is OK.

I have now another issue.
I'm using ffvfw build 13-th jan.
There are some masking facilities avaiable, like luma masking, P-block masking etc. I tried to use them with the quality set to 100%.
With or without these maskings there are no differences neither in filesize nor in quality. Do these maskings work? (I checked the Masking checkbox).

By the way - where should I look for the latest builds??

[molerus]

Ooooooppssssss

My mistake:D

It was build 2003-01-11

sorrry:scared:

[NiTroGen]

Originally posted by molerus
By the way - where should I look for the latest builds??
When a new build is out, I'm sure that Milan, Athos or whoever compiled the build will make a post here.
I am willing to host any new build to my web space (see my signature), so please feel free to send me (nitrogen@freemail.gr) any builds you make.

[birdy]

I hope that at the same time as improving the codec with new builds someone will start making a guide/option explained doc for it.

[unixfs]

Originally posted by easyfab
What version of the sources have you? because with the lastest i think you must modify the makefile. And now i just can't access to the cvs (with wincvs or with ie) is there a sourceforge prob or what?

It's the last version available on Milan's site.
Now I've seen that there are other versions available, but those binaries never work for me: whatever settings I use, VD and VMod (in XP Home) die with error -100.

Is MPEG1 encoding actually working for someone?

Thanks

[athos]

New build today. Includes (some) wmv9 support, havent tested myself yet. Compiled with Visual Studio 6 and Intel C++ Compiler 7.0, should not require any additional dlls (such as msvcr70.dll).

Webpage: http://athos.web1000.com/ffvfw.html
Direct download: http://athos.web1000.com/ffvfw-20030120.exe
ChangeLog: http://athos.web1000.com/changelog

I have emailed it to NiTroGen too, so he can put it up on his site.

Still no word from milan if he wants me to put up builds on sourceforge.

[Valky]

changelog link doesn't work.

Actually none of them doesn' work :)

[lat3ralis]

The links work fine for me :D

lat3ralis

[birdy]

all 3 links work perfect here.
right click the links and choose "open in new window" and not "save target as"
can't wait to test the new build :)

[Valky]

well..this is strange..even if I do everything (open in new window or manually write the url) it just doesn't work :(

It always opens this url for me and redirects: http://web1000.globalreachinc.com/404/mainstream/abcsearch2.html

strange..

[sillKotscha]

for me is it exactly the same but I think it's due to our browser(s), I assume you're using IE. Someone told me that using another browser i.e. opera/ mozilla is maybe able to open the desired page.

I think putting the binaries to sourceforge will be the best idea. ;)

- Sill

[AlphaDivxMovies]

Ffvfw rocks! What doesn`t rock is the total lack of information!
Since no one cared for the common joe out there i dug and found this cool link: http://rguyom.chez.tiscali.fr/libavcodec_tests.html

Hope it helps other users out there to test this codec implementation
and participate in it`s development.

Regards
AlphaDivxMovies