Regular dropouts of selectable CVD subtitles <- really a player problem?

[Chetwood]

Well, due to my little cousin not givin up on bugging me to rip her some stuff (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30752) I've started a new encoding sessions with the latest DVD2SVCD 1.1.0 build 1c under Win2k. I'm using two audio streams of 128 kbit each and 2 CVD subtitle streams.

The quality is really good however the subtitles frequently disappear while watching the movie. When I use the search function to 'rewind' and replay the scene the subtitles suddenly show up. The problem here is that this does happen in every movie and mostly at different scenes. So when I get the subs in chapter one and they suddenly stop next time I'm playing this chapter, there might be no dropout at all but suddenly in the next or previous one. So far there's no SVCD (I've done 3) that does no show this behaviour.

Though people in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=25975) conclude that this problem is related to the standalone player I'm inclined to believe it isn't. This is because I did not experience such problems on my standalone using previous versions of DVD2SVCD. Combining this with the info from the current readme


01 dec 2002 version 1.1.0 build 1c
- Bug Fix: Sometimes subtitles would dissapear at once, fixed (thanks
to Arianos and others)


it appears to me that this bug might not be fixed completely yet.

For a further test I used a friend's standalone which came up with the very same bug. When using my old encodes from older versions of DVD2SVCD I did not experience any such problems.

[dvd2svcd]

It is fixed! The problem you experience now is Player specific. How can I be so certain? Well, because the bug you refer to was visible in the subtitle txt files, which incidently Arianos points out in the thread too. I suggest that you check the same files first before shouting Bug Not Fixed!

[ux-3]

Come on, he is making his point very politely and carefully. He does NOT shout. He says it MIGHT not be fixed COMPLETELY. He backs his statement with plenty of observations that might help to sort his observation in. I think his post is trying to help, not to blame.

[dvd2svcd]

He refers to a bug which IS fixed. Maybe he isn't shouting, but he is accusing me of _not_ fixing my bugs properly. If any of you had bothered searching for the thread where Arianos explains this bug you would see that the bug has nothing at all with whatever Chetwood is experiencing! (btw ux-3, you're shouting, do it again and I _will_ strike you!)

[Chetwood]

So here you contradict yourself!

On the one hand you say it's player specific because the bug is already fixed, therefore it _has to be_ my player.

Originally posted by dvd2svcd
The problem you experience now is Player specific. How can I be so certain? Well, because the bug you refer to was visible in the subtitle txt files

On the other hand you say that I'm experiencing something totally different.

If any of you had bothered searching for the thread where Arianos explains this bug you would see that the bug has nothing at all with whatever Chetwood is experiencing!

So if what I'm experiencing is not related to the bug found by Arianos how can you know it's my player? It's quite improbable that it's the case. How can I be so certain?

Well, if you had bothered reading my initial post carefully you would have realized that I'd already tried my new SVCDs with other players that also showed this behavior. My old SVCDs I created with previous versions of DVD2SVCD do not have this problem on any of said players.

Well, does not exactly point to a player problem, does it?

[onesoul]

Hi everybody.

@DVD2SVCD

First I really like your program and I think you are a great programmer. I would also like to thank you by bringing a great software to make svcds.

But I think you are being to harsh, most people don't understand coding as you do, sometimes we just are trying to help to possible bugs that exist. Off course is up to you to decide if it's a bug or not and we trust you to that. Don't think we are blaming you when we do that. We just wanna contribute for making DVD2SVCD even a more greater tool.

Merry Christmas and a Happy new year

[dvd2svcd]

If you were bombarded each and everyday with bugs in programs which you haven't made (cce, tmpgenc et al), you too would get fed up. Just because d2s is a frontend for those programs, users bomabrd me with issues of said programs. And now I'm to blame for dvd players shortcommings too (or maybe winsubmux bugs, who knows). I do not need that. In fact, I think I'll consider quitting this all together, it's bringing me down a place I don't wanna be!

I do not contradict myself. The bug you refer to is fixed. Period!

[onesoul]

I am really sorry to hear that :(

I can say I am one of those people who sent you a, which I thought at that time, bug report. I am sorry for that.

Maybe there could be a sticky with bug reports so that the false bug reports could be solved at the forum by anyone here.

I wish I could help...

[dvd2svcd]

onesoul: Thanks for your sympathy, although that's not what I'm asking for. All I ask is, just sometimes, that there is put an effort and a measurable amount of intelligence behind posts and mails. I know, I'm the developer and therefore I have a unique perspective on the matter. And maybe today is just one of those days where I should have stayed in bed.

chetwood: Sorry I was harsh, it's just extremely hard sometimes. d2s is like walking against the wind sometimes. Anyway, try installing the version in which you know worked, then perhaps compare the used values between that and 1.1.0. Make sure to use the advanced level in the misc. tab, that way you can compare all used values.

[onesoul]

dvd2svcd: you're welcome :)

We all have bad days, and we all can understand the headaches provoked by programing dvd2svcd and all that relates to it.
edtit: And yes, we all should do more research before mailing you bug reports. Hey people, let the artist work.

Please continue your great work :)

[ux-3]

btw ux-3, you're shouting, do it again and I _will_ strike you!

I am not shouting, I have absolutely no reason to do so. I am just emphasizing key words used in another persons letter, try to point out that he words himself very carefully and in fact is not trying to say things as you interpret them. Actually, I can hardly think of other stuff he could have said or done, unless you would rather not hear from him at all.

Most people who come here and report bugs use your programm and are very fond of it. As others have pointed out in this thread, this is thought of as help, not criticism. So don't get upset. I suppose many here have done programming at some time. Those know quite well, how obnoxious bugs can be, and that fixing one bug will sometimes only uncover the next. As to your comments regarding being a front end, most of those people also had times when they despaired at their code, only to find out that the compiler had a bug as well. Myself, being of Fortran77 vintage, remember the agony too. And if you have to punch cards again, its even worse...

[Clixo]

just for the record.
i have 3 dvd players that ALL play cvs subs. the players are jocel mp3000, mustek 562 and jocel q45. what hapends is that my svcds react diferent ways with the same svcd:
1.in the jocel mp3000, i have subtitles dropouts but comming back if i hit the subs key
2.in mustek all subs are visivel and no dropouts
3.in q45 the subs are all visible and i get no dropouts

this hapens only with some svcds, i thing it is the decoding card the one responsable for the gug becouse i already changed the drive in the mp3000

i have 2 freinds with jocel mp3000 that have sometimes the same problem with the subs.

so to those ones that are posting subs bugs, THERE IS NO BUG it is a player problem !!!!

[onesoul]

Originally posted by clixomano
just for the record.
i have 3 dvd players
I guess you don't have to get up to change your svcd's :)

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by clixomano
so to those ones that are posting subs bugs, THERE IS NO BUG it is a player problem !!!! [/B]

Like I said in my posting to DVD2SVCD: I find it very hard to believe that 2 different players (gonna check a 3rd today at another friend's house) that flawlessly played all the subtitles off those SVCDs I've ripped with DVD2SVCD 1.09 b3 should suddenly be the reason for the subtitle dropouts.

Come on, the only thing that changed in my config here is the DVD2SVCD version. As suggested I'll reinstall this version and do another encode to verify this. Gonna get back to you then.

Originally posted by dvd2svcd
chetwood: Sorry I was harsh, it's just extremely hard sometimes. d2s is like walking against the wind sometimes.

Ok, no problem, let's forget it. I hope we can narrow it down and fix this, whatever is causing it. Thanks for your efforts for this great tool.

[Chetwood]

Well, after almost 4 days of extensive testing of various combinations and on 4 standalone-players the whole thing seems to boil down to this:

it's a bug!

This was my guess right from the beginning simply because all the SVCDs I had encoded so far had no problems at all on my standalone, only the new ones did. As the software was the only thing that I'd changed it simply had to be it.

So here's what I did in order to narrow it down:

- used several standalone players
- several DVDs
- several settings (VBR/CBR)
- several DVD2SVCD versions

and I'm far sure to say that:

As soon as you use _two_ CVD subtitle streams in your encode the primary subtitle stream (no matter which language) will definitely have dropouts. This is reproducible. It does not matter which audio stream you use as a primary one or whether you use two or only one.

The reason why this has gone unnoticed so far is quite simple: you do not get any dropouts as long as you only encode _one_CVD subtitle stream. My guess is that this is what most people do so they never encountered this problem.

Of course I'm not saying this is a bug in DVD2SVCD, it may as well result from Winsubmux or something (I'm using only default settings in all of the tabs).

In case you wanna work on this I can provide log files of all encodes or even the encodes themselves. However, I can't put the encodes on my page since the dropouts mostly occur at around 3 mins into the file so my bin files are about 60 MB which cannot be hosted on my free domain on netfirms.com.

BTW, the bug starts in version 1.1.0 b1, it's not in 1.09 b3 and of course it is not that certain bug mentioned by Arianos. Actually I don't have any idea what's causing it.

[dvd2svcd]

Hmm, weird. Well, I'll look into it. Since so many players fail for you I should be able to get one of my friends to help me. The strange part is I _always_ use more than one CVD stream (mostly da, nl, no and se) and I don't ever get dropouts on da (danish) on my player (even when using 1.1.0). But as I said some of my friends have other brands of dvd players and I will test on those.

[dvd2svcd]

Ok, I have investigated the problem and the only thing I found that was different between 1.0.9 and 1.1.0 was that the bmp palette for the last 12 entries in 1.1.0 was different. Also the start and end times were sligtly different, 1.1.0 is more accurate in this regard. So, Chetwood, if you have some time, try this:

1. use 1.0.9 to rip the subtitles
2. after that use 1.1.0 to do the conversion as normal, including subtitle ripping. When for instance the video encoding starts copy the subs extracted from 1.0.9 into 1.1.0's sub folder.
3. Burn it when it's done and see if you're still experiencing dropouts.

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by dvd2svcd
1. use 1.0.9 to rip the subtitles
2. after that use 1.1.0 to do the conversion as normal, including subtitle ripping. When for instance the video encoding starts copy the subs extracted from 1.0.9 into 1.1.0's sub folder.
3. Burn it when it's done and see if you're still experiencing dropouts.

I've done exactly this and I still get the dropouts. Sorry, in case you need some logfiles let me know...

[dvd2svcd]

Ok. And if you convert a dvd using 1.0.9 B3 you don't experience dropouts at all (using the same dvd to compare of course)?

Please post your SubLog1.txt located in the subs folder.

[needle]

I have also experimented troubles with CVD subtitles with the latest DVD2SVCD 1.1.0 build 1c. After some checks I found that the computation of the Y-position (Ypos) in version 1.1.0 build 1c differs from that of the 1.0.9 B3 version. In my standalone player, the troubles appear when (Ypos + height) is greater than 500. Therefore, at present I modify the Ypos in the sub file as follows:

if (Ypos + height > 500) then Ypos = 500 - height. Otherwise,
don't change Ypos.

@dvd2svcd: Please check if the computation of the Ypos in the current version differs from that of the 1.0.9 B3 version.

Best,

needle

[naoenxeosaco]

I have experimented the same problem and I disagree using previous versions of DVD2SVCD, like 1.09 b3, you don't experience dropouts at all. In this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=165021#post165021) I concluded that selecting alternate streams maybe stoped any dropouts. I was wrong but nobody impugned :( . In this way we have less dropouts but aren't stopped entirely.

Originally posted by Chetwood
As soon as you use _two_ CVD subtitle streams in your encode the primary subtitle stream (no matter which language) will definitely have dropouts... I disagree again. The second stream have dropouts too.

Originally posted by Chetwood
The reason why this has gone unnoticed so far is quite simple: you do not get any dropouts as long as you only encode _one_CVD subtitle stream. My guess is that this is what most people do so they never encountered this problem. I agree. Completely.

My tests showed that by using 2 CVD streams subtitles, PAL or NTSC movie, resize to CVD, I have dropouts in Apex 1500 and Daewoo 3000. Worse is to use 4 CVD streams subtitles: dropouts appear often.
Anybody did tests with SVCD subtitles? Or resizing to SVCD with CVD/SVCD subtitles?
Edit:
I finished test the same movie resing to SVCD with CVD subtitles. It's a disaster!:confused: The dropouts increase much more.

[Chetwood]

After a few further tests (I seem to be enjoying too much spare time atm) I realized that these subtitle dropouts already appeared with version 1.09a!

I haven't noticed earlier simply because I'd ripped those Buffy-eps for my little cousin to make her watch it in english with german subtitles to improve her english. So when an episode was ripped I took a short glance at the result to see if it was ok. Apparently I always watched less then necessary cause sometimes it can take about 10 min into the ep before the first dropouts appear.

The point why she didn't notice any dropouts is (as I just found out by accident yesterday) that the darn bitch did not watch the eps in english as suggested (and promised) but in German! Thus she did not turn on any subtitles and all the eps I encoded with 1.09a appeared to be fine which they're not!

I still have to verify this phenomenon on some other players, it make some time cause I gotta borrow them first. Gonna get back to y'all asap...

[dvd2svcd]

Maybe you should try fiddling a bit with the "Forced Mux Rate" in bbMPEG settings. You must use Advanced Level in the misc. tab before you can change the bbMPEG settings. The default setting in bbMPEG is 6972, but dvd2svcd uses 0 as default (that way it is auto calculated). The reason I use 0 is because NTSC movies always gives buffer over/underruns otherwise.

[waldok]

Hi,

As DVD2SVCD suggests, some issues like this one were solved for me by increasing BBmpeg mux rate a bit (never had any prob otherwise when using one single sub stream). You get a "bigger" file in the end, but everything plays smoothly.

Waldok:cool:

[naoenxeosaco]

I tried the initial suggestion by dvd2svcd but not worked (default setting in "Forced Mux Rate"). On the contrary, the dropouts has increased as well as time dropouts too, in others words the dropouts are continuous. :angry: Anyway I will go research a bit more to understand this phenomenon and will be carrying out any tests.:)

[Chetwood]

Naoenxeosaco, I've tried your tip both with 1.09a and 1.10 B1C and set the subtitles to

subtitle lang. 1 = deutsch
subtitle lang. 2 =
subtitle lang. 3 = englisch

Still on my standalone both subtitles were on tracks 1 + 2 instead of 1 + 3. Thus my subtitle dropouts remain. How did you manage to set em with one blank stream in between? Thanks.

[Clixo]

just make a fake subs file with no files inside ;)

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by Clixo
just make a fake subs file with no files inside ;)

Well, one of the main reasons for me to use DVD2SVCD is to make a conversion on a click, i.e. I don't have to do any of the several steps manually. This is my idea of how a computer should do our work.

Yet, I'd be willing to test this so we can see whether this workaround works, however, I do not know how the file has to look like, where to put it and when to put it there in the process of conversion. Did the other guys using this trick do a fake file as well?

Maybe my standalone would still produce the dropout effect due to the fake file being there? Well, hopefully I'll get the other standlone players borrowed today so as to verify my latest ripping results.

[Clixo]

@Chetwood: request ... request ... request... i wonder if you ever gave anything to the author of dvd2svcd....
:sly:

[Chetwood]

Clixo, obviously you're having problems to understand what people are writing. I asked ppl to explain their subtitle workaround to me, call that a request towards DVD2SVCD? Cause I don't.

Actually, all I'm expecting from a tool is to do what it is programmed for. So if DVD2SVCD is advertized as being able to rip SVCDs with subtitles I expect it to do so (and of course without any dropouts). If you think this is too much it's not my problem. Especially not as DVD2SVCD asked me via pm to keep on trying to narrow down the bug.

So, YES I am doing a lot for him, "wasting" countless hours of using different conversion settings on different hardware to find the bug. Supposedly this is more to him than you ever did (I can't be bothered to read all your threads to verify this). In case you think your pointless bickering is necessary please refrain from doing so in public cause I did not start this thread for any such purpose. Thanks.

[Clixo]

@Chetwood:sory if i was rude

[naoenxeosaco]

Sorry Chetwood but unfortunately we have to make something manually. Rebuild "SVCD Authoring" phase! This is very easy. :cool:
Step 1. Re-multiplex
I use WinSubMux for multiplex all streams in one step. Finished the conversion, load WinSubMux (DVD2SVCD Software Bundle -> Support Programs -> WinSubMux x.x.x):
1. Input MPEG Filename - bbMPEG_Muxed_File0?.mpg
2. Output MPEG Filename - bbMPEG_Muxed_File-subbed0?.mpg
3. Check stream 0 and choose file "subs/"your language"1-?.txt (dt1-1.txt???)
4. Check stream 2 and choose file "subs/"your language"2-?.txt (en2-1.txt???)
5.Check Multiplex stream #0 and stream #2 as CVD
6. Click in Multiplex.
or
Look in dvd2svcd_log.txt and search for section "- Multiplexing CVD Subtitles". Copy the next commandline and paste in DOS prompt, like this:
"C:\Arquivos de programas\DVD2SVCD\WinSubMux\WinSubMux.exe" "G:\Blad2\bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg" -l "G:\Blad2\Subs\SubLog1.txt" -C -s0 "G:\Blad2\Subs\pt1-1.sub" "G:\Blad2\bbMPEG_Muxed_File-subbed00.mpg" -C -s1 "G:\Blad2\Subs\en2-1.sub"
Change -s1 to -s2 and execute.

Step 2. Create images
Two options: VCDeasy ou VCDXBuild. Let's to the fastest. Look in dvd2svcd_log.txt and search for section "-- Creating CD-Images using VCDXBuild". Copy the next commandline and paste in DOS prompt, like this:
"C:\Arquivos de programas\DVD2SVCD\VCDImager\VCDXBuild.exe" --verbose --cue-file="G:\Blad2\CD_Image_File_CD1.cue" --bin-file="G:\Blad2\CD_Image_File_CD1.bin" "G:\Blad2\VCDXBU~1.XML"

No more :o

Thanks Chetwood and dvd2svcd for help. Most people haven't interest in two sub streams. I have hope, we are going to get the solution for this problem.

[DCK21]

Hi all again,

--------------------------------------------
some background:
--------------------------------------------

we had a long discusssion some time ago ...

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=25175

WinSubMux 0.2.0.2 was a partial solution, but I think not
really definitive.

I continue believing that, althought there will be some crappy
players that are not able to show subs, many of the so said
not able ones are implementing a correct subs presentation
firmware.

Currently, I am able to see both SVCD and CVD subs. But, I have
what can be called "the starting sub bug": initial subs are not
displayed until rewind then replay.

I believe that the subs packages are not muxed really properly, that is, sometimes they arrive in the stream too late to be displayed by the player; perhaps other times too early and are discarded in the players buffer. New Age certainly made a good progress with WinSubMux, as many people was unable to see subtitles with SubMux but was able with WinSubMux (New Age himself discovered he was able to see SVCD subs!).

As H.V.Riedel has said many times in the VCDImager forums, the SVCD muxer needs reworking for a proper SVCD/CVD handling. Both video, audio and subs have to be muxed together. Injecting sub packages after video and audio muxing is only a partial solution.

Furthermore, I suspect all sub muxers have some common roots that give source to small bit erroneus implementation of something ...

Unfortunately, I am not able to code a proper muxer myself :-(

Hope there is some change soon here ... ;-)

--------------------------------------------
So, for what this thread matters ...
--------------------------------------------
A)
If muxing is not-fully-correct, marginally allocated subtitle packages (timing) might be dropped by the player (i.e., not shown subtitle), this being highly dependant on the player brand and model (capacity of each player to reproduce non-fully compliant streams), and, of course, on the stream itself.
B)
Slight changes in video, audio, subs, changes in number of audios, number of subs, etc., makes that the program stream (muxed video+audios) changes, making that the injection of sub packages takes place in different points in the stream ... so this impinges changes in the already-marginal-timing situation of the packets ... and again in the player behaviour. That is, from one SVCD to the next, the slightest change may change that subtitles are dropped or
not and which ones.

Should the origin of the situation be as said, DVD2SVCD can not solve this issue.

This is my basic asumption in the full subs area. This can explain in a natural way so many problems with sub displaying. But ... I can be perfectly be wrong, I have no proofs but a collection of circumstantial evidences ...

By the way, did I said again thanks to DVD2SVCD Fiddler himself
for his work? Oh, I did not ... so THANKS :-) (hope will not be striked for the shooting)

Regards to all,
DCK21<-HAL

[Chetwood]

@Clixo: ok, let's forget it.

@naoenxeosaco: thanks for the info, gonna try these days, gotta wait for Maxtor to return my f**ked up HD though.

[Chetwood]

Naoenxeosaco, I've used your first method cause it seemed quite easy to me and it was. However, even when I managed to put in the streams as 0 + 2 I'm still getting the dropouts on the first stream. Curiously enough not on the second stream, though this is not confirm with your own results as you said earlier in this thread. I did not watch the whole ep on on the second stream though. For another test I encoded streams 1+2 leaving stream 0 empty and still the first stream dropped out, even really earlier into the ep.

I hope I'll be able to borrow some other standalone this weekend so as to verify this bug on others players. I'll get back to you guys.

[Chetwood]

Today I've borrowed a friend's player. It's a SCOTT 838 and it also shows the dropouts I experienced on my player both on 1.09 and 1.1.0 rips. Gotta try the trick with stream 1 + 3 tomorrow but I'm afraid it won't work cause it did not on my player.

So I'm still sure this is a software problem (not necessarily DVD2SVCD but Winsubmux), however it MIGHT be a problem of the chipset used. Both players I've used these days are running on an ESS chipset, one might get perfect results on other players, though there's only a few chipsets that support SVCD subtitles at all. I've given some thoughts on deliberately crippled firmware in this thread (http://www.dvd.reviewer.co.uk/forums/thread.asp?Forum=176&Thread=142053&Type=1/) (pls scroll down a bit).

Do you know what chipset your player does use, naoenxeosaco?

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by Chetwood
Today I've borrowed a friend's player. It's a SCOTT 838 and it also shows the dropouts I experienced on my player both on 1.09 and 1.1.0 rips. Gotta try the trick with stream 1 + 3 tomorrow but I'm afraid it won't work cause it did not on my player.


Right, the 1+3 trick (I also tried 2+4) did not work either. So, as soon as somebody turns up and names a standalone that usually does support CVD-subtitles and does NOT run on an ESS chipset we could try this out to verify whether it's a hardware problem or not.

[Clixo]

as i posted bofoure i have an jocel mp3000 same as scott 838 and i get subs dropouts but with my jocel q45 and with my mustek v520 i get no dropouts !! ( using of course te same disk ;) )
i will open my q 45 and check the chipset

ps regarding the dropouts i also got them using i-author so .... i am convinced that it is a player problem !

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by Clixo
ps regarding the dropouts i also got them using i-author so .... i am convinced that it is a player problem !

???

I-Author is used to make the bin-image, isn't it? I think the problem is earlier in the process: when muxing the subtitles. My guess is that Winsubmux causes the problem so it doesn't matter whether you use I-Author or VCDXBuild (like I am) to make the images...

[Clixo]

@ Chetwood : it seams you catched the train in the midle ... in the early days befoure dvd2svcd create an mux software that after evolved to winmux, i author was THE ONLY software available to mux selectable subs in an svcd so if you think it is only to author then you are wrong !
so i think that you should use i-author at least once to check if you player also giver dropouts with it :D

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by Clixo
in the early days befoure dvd2svcd create an mux software that after evolved to winmux, i author was THE ONLY software available to mux selectable subs in an svcd so if you think it is only to author then you are wrong !

Hmm, call me stupid but I don't get it. So you are saying that I-Author cannot be only used to turn mpeg-files into CD images (bin/cue) but also to mux subtitles into the mpegs? This sounds strange to me since I do not see any I-Author button in the subtitles tab but only in the CD image tab. And when I check this radio button in said tab I-Author instead of VCDXBuild is used to make the image (but not to mux the subtitles).

In case I'm still getting it wrong please tell me which buttons to use in whih tabs to use I-Author for muxing and I'll try it to rule it out as another possible bug source. Thx.

BTW, I browsed the DVD2SVCD-dir on my HD and I did not find any I-Author exe file...

[Clixo]

@ chetwood : first you need i-author since its an separate software, then since some time agon this was considered an advanced feature you will need to edit dvd2svcd.ini, find the line "use I-author=0" and change it to " use i-author=1 ", after in the image tab you will find i author support , also you will nedd cdmage to convert the cif imajes to bin, cue files so you can burn them with actual burning software as the cif files generated by i author only work with easy cd creator version 4

[Clixo]

@ chetwood: a test that it would be nice to be done would be to extract the subs from a finished svcd taht you have done and where you get subtitkes dropouts and then compare if the subs where reaky muxed or if they where no muxed during the mux process. to make this ( note i never made it but in theory it is possible ) you will need vobsub to extract the subs from the mpeg2 file and after compare the result of the extracted subs from the muxed subd in the " orijinal" , i saw o thread explaining the processes and if i remenber well it was related with svcd to dvdr with selectable subs.

NOTE: i was not calling you stupid !!. if i woul consider you as one i would not even post any reply !! i even admire your perserverance with the solution of this problem !

[Chetwood]

Although I'm still inclined to verify whether the ESS chipset used in my standalone, winsubmux or DVD2SVCD is the cause of the subtitle dropout problem it's getting harder not to kick the crap out of the window!

Take for example I-Author: it took me days to get a cracked version 1.0 and the ONLY image format that crappy tool can do is .cif. Which in turn can only be burned by the even more crappy Easy CD Creator which forced me to download a cracked Platinum version of 150 MB only to install the creator of 2 MB worth.

Even funnier is the fact that (of course after patching cd creator to finally recognize my burner) the only tool that can burn .cif-images actually CANNOT burn em! No matter if I used disc-at-once or track-at-once, the resulting CD was a mixed mode CD (!) with two tracks that were unreadable with

- Windows Explorer = "no disc in drive"
- CD Mage 1.01.05 = "File length doesn't match sector boundary"
- Winimage 6.10.6100 = totally locked up.
- my standalone = simply didn't show anything

Finally a cracked version of Isobuster 1.2 could open the initial .cif-image generated by DVD2SVCD (but not the CD burned with Easy CD Creator) and the files in there looked as a regular SVCD with subdirs like

AUTORUN
DATA
EXT
MPEG2

So I thought, I'd just grab the mpeg2 file and burn it manually using vcdimager. As you might have guessed Isobuster did not allow me to extract any of the files from the .cif-image. All options to do so were greyed out!

So now I'm sitting here with an image file I can't burn properly and some weird files. What kinda files does I-Author generate anyway?
What is an MPS-file? Is it similar to an mpeg file that is already muxed with subtitles? Could I burn this with another tool or extract the mpg from it?

Originally posted by Clixo
@ chetwood: a test that it would be nice to be done would be to extract the subs from a finished svcd taht you have done and where you get subtitkes dropouts and then compare if the subs where reaky muxed or if they where no muxed during the mux process.


No need to do this Clixo, since all the subtitles that drop out definitely are on the SVCD. So if I get some dropouts from minutes 8-10 in the movie, I can rewind and watch these parts again seeing the subtitles. Later in the movie I might get dropouts again. Or if I restart the whole movie minutes 8-10 that just before dropped out simply run fine and the dropouts start at another scene.

So, how can I burn that darn file muxed by I-Author???

[needle]

@Chetwood

You can use the Iauthor muxer to mux the subs with the
audio and video stream. If you check 'Ps format' the output is a
compliant mpeg file. Then you can author the SVCD with Vcdxbuild
to obtain the cue/bin files.

[dvd2svcd]

In the subtitle tab, select I-Authors mux.exe instead of winsubmux. In the CDImage tab use VCDXBuild to make your images.

[Chetwood]

Thanks for the howto, DVD2SVCD. However, it did not work! I get the same dropouts with I-Author. So, I'm still trying to find one of my friends who has a DVD-player based on another than the ESS chipset to once and for all verify what's causing this.

What strikes me as odd is that the dropouts appear more often when I-Author is used. Maybe it's really like DCK21 said and these things have to be muxed very close to the standard and are somehow not done properly...

[dvd2svcd]

Have you tried the original SubMux.exe ? That is, I think, still supported in d2s.

[DCK21]

Hi again,
somebody (not me) is coding SVCD subtitles presentation for a
GNU SW player (Xine, sorry but for now only Linux based).

It seems that the "beta RC" is working, both SVCD and CVD.

So, along the work, subtitles streams in several SVCD samples are
being analyzed, mainly for testing purposes. Conclusions:
seems that it can be confirmed that the vcdhelp samples are not right. Amongs its defects are:
- out of frame display (for example, in line 700 ... !?)
- sub muxed "too late" (that is, when the muxed packet for a given
sub arrives, the display time is for an already displayed frame ...)

-------------------------------------
Some simplified background for whom might need it:
- the video, audio and subs come in chunks _packs/packets_ within the streams, each chunk with an associated time: when it has to be displayed
- The player has a buffer where it stores those chunks, mainly to be able to handle variable bit rate: CD/DVD reading speed has a "slow" changing rate _income bit flux is "slowly" changing_ but bit flux to be displayed has "sharp" spikes
- When time to display arrives, the player takes the chunk and displays it
--------------------------------------

What happens when a chunk in the buffer has a specified "display time" before "current time"? Drop chunk, cannot imagine what else.

What happens if all subs chunks arrive with a "display time" before "current time"? No subs are seen.

What happens if some subs chunks arrive late? Some subs dropped ...

It seems that Winsubmux produces streams better "sorted", with less "late arrival time subs", but still somehow marginal (i.e., not early enough). As far as I know, the full standard definition is not public disclosed. Probably, coders are working in a trial and error basis. By the way, I have not had access to the full standard :-(

DCK21<-HAL

PS: by the way, as Xine is GNU, source code for the sub displaying will be available, that means that bsplayer, zoomplayer, etc will have enough information to include that feature "easily" within their players. Perhaps there will be also a GNU subs muxer/demuxer ...

@Chetwood
yes, I know that this is not solving your issue. It only opens a door for the future (not far away, I believe).

[Chetwood]

@DVD2SVCD

I did all previous tests of these weeks with the version 1.1.0 B1 c that I got from you by pm. Now I've downloaded the latest version 1.1.1 B2 and I still have the dropouts even quite early in the movie.
I've been using submux as you asked and it seemed to make no difference except that some letters were underligned which of course they shouldn't be. Once sentence e.g. looked like

Wait up.

So, I'm gonna be concentrating on finding a non-ess-player amongst my friends and I'll get back as soon as I know more. In case you want me to send in some log files or in case you have any idea where to look for anything in em, let me know.


Originally posted by DCK21
@Chetwood
yes, I know that this is not solving your issue. It only opens a door for the future (not far away, I believe).

Well, I'm afraid that once I finally managed to find the cause for the bug DVD-Rs will be that cheap that I could copy the DVDs instead of converting them to SVCD ;)