MiniDV and Progressive Recording

[mikecito]

Are all MiniDV cameras progressive? How can I tell if one isn't? I look at specs, ask the salesman, no one seems to know what I'm talking about in Circuit City (The spawn of ignorance... but their return policy is SO GOOD!)

[OvERaCiD23]

it would say "progressive" somewhere on it, should be very noticeable. it's only available on higher-end cameras, not the lower-end ones (such as Canon's ZR series, which I own but wish it had progressive shot).

the people at Circuit City aren't going to know what you're talking about, they probably don't even know what interlacing is. a reply I received a while back when just browsing ~~> "Check out the quality of that still shot" ~~~> 640x480 :eek: . I know not everybody is into quality the same way we are, but come on! I said "umm, yeah" and walked away.

[mikecito]

Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad someone shares the pain I feel when shopping in electronics.

I understand that Mpeg2(dvd, which is my final product) will work fine with interlaced files. I plan on showing most of my stuff on either a TV or LCD projector, from a DVD. Would it be worth the extra money to get a progressive camera, just to have that higher quality? Also, is it harder for premiere or CCE plugin to handle the interlaced video while I work with it?

Thanks!

[bb]

For DVD progressive scan is not necessary because you can encode interlaced, and you have enough bitrate to waste ;)

If you'd want to produce SVCD's you should encode progressive video to get better quality at the low bitrate you have. In this case you get better results with a progressive scan camcorder, because you don't need to deinterlace, which is lossy.

For viewing on a computer monitor you get better results with progressive sources. An interlaced source will be de-interlaced during playback, which costs sharpness and quality.

On interlaced monitors (TV set) interlaced video plays back smoother than progressive video. But not everybody realizes that, and compared to films in cinema being played back at progressive 24 fps, I think progressive 25 fps from a DV camcorder are ok.

bb

[luka]

Hi!

What is progressive recording? What is the diference between Interlaced and non-interlaced encoding? You encode this after capturing to disk, or during capturing?

Bye, Luka

[ByronE]

If you plan on doing alot of video editing with your DV source material, I would go Progressive. I pondered upon the same thoughts a few months back when I was looking to buy one, and ended up buying a Sony TRV-17, which is a great cam, especially for 500$, but after all the nerveracking crap I've gone through with it, I wish I had dropped another 2 or 3 bills to get Progressive. A few of the biggest issues with it...#1 if you use CCE, it encodes everything Top Field First, regardless of wether the box is ticked. Interlaced DV is always Bottom Field first. #2 If you want to do real time capturing into mpg2 (which I KNOW is not as good of quality as capping to an avi first, but if you just want to cap a quick tv spot which is poor quality comparitively anyways, or if you have limited drive space, this is a good direction to go in) then the captureing program always fubars the interlaceing. #3 it's just a real bugger to deal with...plus de-interlaceing slows the encode process by 75% sometimes.

So, if you can find a decent progressive cam with a decent price, then go for it. Don't worry to much about the digital fx it has (except for nightshot) since they can all be done with much more control on the PC.

[mikecito]

I'm only worried about one thing then. I use the CCE plugin for everything I do, but I have version 2.64. Would upgrading to 2.66 fix the problem of not being able to do lower field first? I wrote to CinemaCraft, but no response...

Thanks!

Mike

[ByronE]

No, I'm using 2660107 and it still encodes everythin in TFF. I usually just end up deinterlaceing it, but a different method I found, if you use avusynth is to reverse the field orders on the fly, but I'm not 100% sure that thats the best methodology, sometimes I end up with interlaceing artifacts at scene changes then. I cant believe after this long they still haven't fixed this issue.

[OvERaCiD23]

Originally posted by ByronE
I cant believe after this long they still haven't fixed this issue.

and all the $ they ask for the product, you'd think it would have something as simple as this fixed.


as for the camera, if i could go back and buy one again, i'd defintely buy a progressive camera. interlaced material will be outdated by 2008 (when HDTV is the standard, right?), so we should probably look into the future for purchasing things. all in all, progressive is easier to work with, sharper, etc etc etc. the only thing holding one back is the extra $.

[ByronE]

Originally posted by OvERaCiD23
interlaced material will be outdated by 2008 (when HDTV is the standard, right?), so we should probably look into the future for purchasing things. all in all, progressive is easier to work with, sharper, etc etc etc. the only thing holding one back is the extra $.

Very True OA23, one good note about the $$ though, is that by 2008, HD-DVD will be the video standard (if the new holographic discs aren't implemented instead). IN any case, HD-DVD is suppossedly going to be 59.97fps progressive (ntsc), hence, the "half-frame speed" ones from before then will be drastically cheaper.

[nick ctrl]

it's true cce has a trouble, always encoding with top field first, which is a trouble for interlaced dv.

the clue is to use pulldown.exe after the cce encoding to revert the field order ( set it to even ).

then it plays beautifully on a dvd player.

[Richard Iredale]

I have CCE 2.62, and have never had a problem with the wrong field first, going to NTSC DVD. For those that do, I've come across a simple little freeware utility that can change the field order of MPEG2 after encoding. It is made by Darim Vision, and is called "Easy Changer." It's been a while since I visited their web site, which is:
www.darvision.com

[midiguy]

Originally posted by ByronE
...IN any case, HD-DVD is suppossedly going to be 59.97fps progressive (ntsc)...

oh man... 60 fps progressive video... that is almost... orgasmic!

[bb]

Originally posted by Richard Iredale
I have CCE 2.62, and have never had a problem with the wrong field first, going to NTSC DVD. For those that do, I've come across a simple little freeware utility that can change the field order of MPEG2 after encoding. It is made by Darim Vision, and is called "Easy Changer." It's been a while since I visited their web site, which is:
www.darvision.com
I didn't find it on their web site any more, but here's a link:
http://www.dvbpool.de/tsunami/easych.html

You may also use pulldown.exe, which is available at Doom9's downloads.

bb

[BassPig]

I've used 2.62 and now 2.64 and virtually ALL of my projects come from DV format (VX2000/PD150 cameras) and the TFF issue is not a problem at all. I just check the DVD box and leave the others as is and encode. The field order is correct in the final DVD. If it wasn't, there'd be an awful flicker.