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View Full Version : DVD-R and DVD+R: some previously unmentioned technical issues


Doom9
9th December 2002, 14:07
c't had a big article on recordable DVDs in the last issue. They've performed a pretty thorough media test, the results of which can be seen in this thread: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39575. The only comment I can add is that c't mentioned to take the results with a grain of salt as production can be changed over to another plant which could yield discs of very different quality.
Currently, most people buy DVD-R because the blanks are currently cheaper (though when it comes to really good media the difference is really small). That may, however, be subject to change: If you look at the recordable surface of a DVD-R you'll see a small ring close to the center that looks different. This is the area where normally you'd have the CSS codec on a pressed DVD-5. This ring is there to prevent 1:1 copies of DVD-5s (that's why you have to rip 'em first and burn 'em later, during the ripping process the CSS stuff is removed so it can be burned onto a DVD-R blank). Here's where it gets interesting: This area has to be burned!!! on each disc that is being manufactured. Theoretically this area could be stamped when the disc is created (which would obviously be much quicker) but some members of the DVD forum (can you say MPAA members;) want the manual way because this way each blank can have its own ID number. DVD+R on the other hand has the copy protection in the firmware (so theoretically it could even be hacked).
Therefore DVD+R production is cheaper and the copy protection is potentially weaker.
DVD+R is also addressing sectors more accurately so they need less "help" via the physical structure of the disc (and don't need help from the software to prevent buffer underruns). DVD+R/W also supports multisession writing without problems (on DVD-RW a disc has to be finalized before it can be read on another drive), packet writing and allows you to overwrite part of an already written +RW disc (mostly interesting for standalone recorders). And then there's the issue with the minimal disc size of 1 GB on DVD-Rs that DVD+R does not have. Admittedly, some of these issues have been resolved in the meantime (if you use special software (like the latest release of InstantCD/DVD), standard software like Nero for instance does not support this stuff (yet?)).

Also interesting is that most DVD+R blanks are manufactured by the same company (Ricoh). This is obviously not very good for prices. Once more manufacturers are beginning to produce DVD+R discs that could have quite an impact on disc prices.

Something else rather interesting: Some of you might remember my rand on manufacturer codes. At least for the 2x DVD-R blanks there are no specs - hence I guess the manufacturer IDs have some merit. There's a standard for 4x DVD-Rs and 2x DVD-RWs though.

Last but not least c't has also discovered some manufacturer ID irregularities. Some discs do not contain an ID, and on others there's a wrong ID (Princo illegally uses a TDK tag - these discs cannot even be burned on the new Sony burner).

alexnoe
9th December 2002, 19:16
The minimal-size-issue is a silly firmware bug of some DVD players and not related to any standard.

gooki
10th December 2002, 02:55
"Princo illegally uses a TDK tag " - Lol I knew it.

I presume c't is a computer related magazine? If so can someone comfirm as I'd liek to read the whole article.

Doom9
10th December 2002, 07:50
c't is Germany's most formidable PC mag, the only one that really addresses the computer pros. The article I took the info from has been published online: http://www.heise.de/ct/02/25/112/ (German though). There are several other DVD related articles in the current issue, a DVD blank test, a test of the latest recorders, an article on commercial DVD copying tools (there's one alpha version of a tool they tested that looks pretty promising) and an article on how to author DVDs using myDVD but all these are only available in the print issue.

bac
10th December 2002, 12:39
The info about the "illegal" TDK media
is also at:
http://www.dvdwriters.co.uk/
under their 12/6 news.

"TDK discovered that DVD–R discs are circulating in the European market in violation of its manufacturer identification codes. TDK is not the manufacturer of these particular discs and takes no responsibility for them."

I wonder if one can truly claim that it's illegal however. Brand
name dilution?

alexnoe
10th December 2002, 20:32
The Manufacturer ID is what the Laser Power Calibration is mainly based upon ("OPC" is only kind of fine tuning)!
Faked IDs can thus lead to lower quality burns than what proper write strategy and manufacturer code would allow.

That's why Sony's decision to refuse writing to these discs is good.

bac
10th December 2002, 22:08
Originally posted by alexnoe

That's why Sony's decision to refuse writing to these discs is good.

What decision? How can sony tell that they are fake? I'll be
pissed if sony tries to make my real TDK media fail.

alexnoe
10th December 2002, 22:14
Nah...the write strategy code for faked TDKs should be different, so the sony drive will probably know true TDK from faked ones.

delly01
12th December 2002, 07:27
Originally posted by Doom9
[B]DVD+R on the other hand has the copy protection in the firmware (so theoretically it could even be hacked).
Therefore DVD+R production is cheaper and the copy protection is potentially weaker.

DVD+R does not have the protection scheme at all, because protection is purely a firmwareissue in the reader. But, since DVD+R does not have the area where the manufacturer can store the CSS-data, it is not possible to produce DVD+R for authoring use.

What's more interesting in the test from c't is the outcome of the quality for DVD-R and DVD+R:

c't found most DVD+R to be quite mediocre: There were no really good media, while Fuji, TDK and Verbatim make very good DVD-R. On the other hand, the really bad media like cheap parrot, Intenso etc. are only produced for DVD-R. Intenso was especially interesting: Their DVD+R perform better than their DVD-R, but their DVD-R are produced inhouse while their DVD+R are labelware.

So, while the brands of DVD-R vary very much from excellent to very bad, most DVD+R offer similar average quality.

However, neither I nor c't expect this to last: Since the production of DVD+R and DVD+RW is quite similar, it is only a matter of time until the low-quality brands start punching out bad DVD+R as well.

Bye,

Detlev

bouis
12th December 2002, 10:35
I was right (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35261)

bastioned
12th December 2002, 11:37
Just a sidenote, but with latest firmware Sony DRU500A CAN indeed burn Princo DVDs , be it -r , +r , -rw or +rw. Before that it could only burn -r and + r, not any rw ( from Princo ). And, to point out, I have burnt more than 2 hundred Princo -r DVDs without a coaster at all, so speaking of quality... go figure

alexnoe
12th December 2002, 15:25
The Sony should only refuse Princos with TDK code! Princo 1x with PRINCO code will continue to work.

bastioned
12th December 2002, 17:23
Well, I don´t know of that TKD code thingy, but if that includes 2x Princos then I assure you they work just as the 1x, that is, great. And with the older firmware too, not just the 1.0f

spath
22nd December 2002, 13:31
> The Manufacturer ID is what the Laser Power
> Calibration is mainly based upon ("OPC" is only
> kind of fine tuning)!

No, static informations used for laser calibration are
found in other parts of the ADIP/prepits, not the
manufacturer id.

> ah...the write strategy code for faked TDKs
> should be different, so the sony drive will probably
> know true TDK from faked ones.

This way you would also prevent TDK from using
this write strategy in the future... doubtful. Where
did you see that a Sony drive would refuse to write
to these fake TDKs ?

alexnoe
22nd December 2002, 13:33
The C'T claimed that TDK would use its contacts to Sony to ensure the DRU500A not to write to these discs.
No idea if Sony implemented that. According to reports from forum members here, they haven't, so this piece of "information" could be obsolete.

Chibi Jasmin
1st February 2003, 17:33
Originally posted by Doom9
If you look at the recordable surface of a DVD-R you'll see a small ring close to the center that looks different. This is the area where normally you'd have the CSS codec on a pressed DVD-5. This ring is there to prevent 1:1 copies of DVD-5s (that's why you have to rip 'em first and burn 'em later, during the ripping process the CSS stuff is removed so it can be burned onto a DVD-R blank).

Taken from Pioneer A05 test on cdrinfo.com

Pioneer has just shipped the first batch of the following media types and the availability for Europe will follow shortly through Pioneer distributors. The new 4X High Speed DVD-R media will come under the part number "DVS-R47BF" in a standard slim jewel case.This media also supports "CSS".

What does it mean, this media supports CSS? Can one actually write a CSS encrypted disc with these? Or maybe even copy a CSS-encrypted DVD-5 on-the-fly without ripping?

Are 4x DVD-R no longer split into into 'g'eneral and 'a'uthoring use?

Chibi Jasmin
1st February 2003, 17:47
Originally posted by Doom9
This is the area where normally you'd have the CSS codec on a pressed DVD-5. This ring is there to prevent 1:1 copies of DVD-5s (that's why you have to rip 'em first and burn 'em later, during the ripping process the CSS stuff is removed so it can be burned onto a DVD-R blank). Here's where it gets interesting: This area has to be burned!!! on each disc that is being manufactured. Theoretically this area could be stamped when the disc is created (which would obviously be much quicker) but some members of the DVD forum (can you say MPAA members;) want the manual way because this way each blank can have its own ID number.

The c't article 'Scheibenwahl' also says, this ring is only burned on DVD-Rs and stamped for DVD-RWs...why is that? Maybe they'll start stamping this ring for DVD-Rs, too, instead of burning, if price competition with DVD+R ever gets an issue? Most DVD-Videos are DVD-9s anyway and maybe MPAA doesn't insist on this ring being burned anymore? Who knows?

alexnoe
2nd February 2003, 15:12
@Jasmin: CDRInfo has written crap several times before. I wouldn't take this excerpt of the review too serious...

Authoring media only exists for 1x speed (not even for 2x speed). 4x authoring media does indeed not exist.

Chibi Jasmin
3rd February 2003, 11:51
Originally posted by alexnoe
@Jasmin: CDRInfo has written crap several times before. I wouldn't take this excerpt of the review too serious...

Authoring media only exists for 1x speed (not even for 2x speed). 4x authoring media does indeed not exist.

Well, I think time will tell...but what is the point of this ID number on each DVD-R(G), that has to be burned? I think, I'd have to order a Pioneer 4x disc to find out, if the ring is still there and if it's burned or stamped...