Neon Genesis Evangelion - Artifacts!!

[LiquidFaction]

I've been trying for months to try and rip the Neon Genesis: Evangelion DVD's, ive managed to get them IVTC'd so theres no wierd interlacing and crap, the file size is fine, no ghosting (that i can see) etc.

But during playback, in fast motion sequences, (usualy as somthing moves accross the screen) i can see a horizontal "Break" in the image, i havent been able to get a screen shot though. Does anyone know if this is a encoding error? which filters can i use to remove this?

Also there is an artifact near the bottom of the screen that pops up once in a while, which causes the picture to jump slightly. theres a screenshot of this attached, (The screen was taken from the original VOB files, before encoding to divX 5.02)

thanx for the feedbak.
-LiquidFaction

http://members.shaw.ca/jag.mail/genesis.jpg

[LiquidFaction]

Heres the filter set i used to encode it with (straight from my .avs file:

LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\decomb.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\InverseTelecine.dll")

ivtc(44,11,95)
FieldDeinterlace()


_________________


my avs file & Gknot log are here:

http://members.shaw.ca/jag.mail/episode5.avs
http://members.shaw.ca/jag.mail/episode5_1_Gknot.log

[DJ Bobo]

If you used IVTC+FD, it's the best you can get if you want 24fps output.

I even tried to optimise the parameters of IVTC further (be sure to use IVTC 2.2), I came up with:

ivtc(70,10,25)
Blendfields()

last time.
Those new parameters are quite untested (only one week of testing), but they show better pattern detection. I switched to blendfields as fielddeinterlace tend to "forget" some combed frames.

Evangelion and many other titles aren't telecined in a standard way.
Normal telecine is: 3 normal frames + 2 combed frames.
Bad Telecine like in Evangelion: 1 normal frame + 2 frames combed in the higher area + 2 frames combed in the lower area :angry:

BTW, the jumping in the picture is normal in Evangelion. AFAIK, only the german version has been digitally remastered and cleaned from those "jumps".

[LiquidFaction]

thanks. ill try the blend fields and post my results.

Btw, with anime do u find you get better results using Bi Directional encoding & GMC or without?

[Angrychair]

The problem with evangelion is that gainax apparently only has very crappy source of it. The interlacing is crappy to deal with, I suggest trying this, it seems to work the best for me: use good old telecide in avs, use telecide ALSO in virtualdub, and use virtualdub's reconstruct from fields adaptive IDCT mode. That should get rid of pretty much everything except maybe little mouth movements. (at least, I think that was how I dealt with it... it's been a while 0_0)

[DJ Bobo]

@ Liquidfaction
I used to use GMC when DivX5 first came out, but then I saw some bad results posted here in the forum, and I also experienced similiar artifacts, so I don't use it any more since long. I'm waiting for a new version of DivX.
So I use only bidirectional encoding at the moment.

@ Angrychair
Isn't it a little bit weird that there is no 24fps master tapes of Evangelion? I hardly believe this. How can an anime studio keep only badly telecined 30fps master tapes of its properties?!
Just to name an example, I got a Saint Seiya DVD from Hong Kong (NTSC) and one from France (PAL). The HK one is badly telecined like Evangelion (was captured from a japanese LD). The french one is progressive! (PAL speed up).
That means there must be 24fps master tapes somewhere. Why shouldn't the same thing apply to Evangelion? do you think it's a money issue? may be the 24fps tapes are more expensive than the 30fps ones? :confused:

[RadicalEd]

I dunno, but gainax had a pretty bad rap before eva and weren't very successful at all, I wouldn't be surprised if money played a big part in the quality of eva. I remember hearing something about a fire in the studio before episodes 25 and 26 also, but I'm not sure of the details. Ermac has a good knowledge of gainax and eva's history, hopefully he'll provide more details.

[LiquidFaction]

Heres some test clips i encoded using different IVTC methods in the avs. (the clips are on my ftp so ill try and leave it on as long as possible)

there doesnt seem to be any noticable gain in it, even disableing GMC didnt seem to help.

(it helps to view the clips fullscreen, the interlacing problem very easy to see with the flashes)

IVTC (original method):
ivtc(44,11,95)
FieldDeinterlace()
ftp://eva:genesis@liquidnet.serveftp.com/originalivtc.avi

IVTC (original method - No GMC)
ftp://eva:genesis@liquidnet.serveftp.com/originalivtcnogmc.avi

DJ Bobo's IVTC method (blend fields):
ivtc(70,10,25)
Blendfields()
ftp://eva:genesis@liquidnet.serveftp.com/ivtc2.avi

Normal movements are fine, (mouth movements, walking etc. it seems to be mostly with the large action sequences (lots of flashing etc) that problems seem to occur, so this is the area i focused on when doing the test clips)

I'll attempt AngryChair's method later when i have time, i also dont have much experiance with virtualdub (without the help of GKnot) so ill let you know how that goes.

Once we get this figured out it might be a good idea to do a step by step writeup and see if Doom9 would like to post it, as anime ripping problems seem to take up alot of space on this board.

[LiquidFaction]

I just had a thought,

using the original inverse telecine method i hunted out of old posts:

ivtc(44,11,95)
FieldDeinterlace()

almost ALL of the interlaced frames are removed, with the exception of some crap during scenes with lots of flashing.

could the wierd separation in the picture have somthing to do with an aspect ratio error in while resising in gordian knot? (eg. not cropping), since DivX 5 needs the width & hieght to be multiples of 2 & 4 respectivly (i think)... introducing an aspect error would mean Gknot has to strech the frames to fit the resolution, maybe messing up a good ivtc job?

there's always the argument that im ripping at too low of a bittrate and so my video is getting butchered in the process...

- Either way i think im going to hunt down some Gainmax employee's and make them eat thier own DVD...

[DJ Bobo]

I've just downloaded the clip you've done with my method. I don't see any interlacing. The clip is just perfect.

Note that using BlendFields, there is *NO WAY* any combing remains, and I mean *NO WAY*! it's just impossible!

[EDIT]
Of course IVTC & BlendFields must come at the top of the avs script.
For example:

loadplugin("...\mpeg2dec.dll")
loadplugin("...\ivtc.dll")
mpeg2source("eva.d2v")
ivtc(70,10,25)
BlendFields()
crop(...)
BicubicResize(...)
...

[Angrychair]

The clip I downloaded looked fine to me, if not a little small. With decent settings, you should be able to achieve GREAT quality with about 900kbps using divx5 or the latest xvid builds in full frame (640x480) instead of shrinking down to 448x336. (which is just obscenely small)

[DJ Bobo]

@ angrychair
I'm not so sure about that 640x480 @900kbps, it won't look very good.
In quality based 100% with bidirectional encoding, I was barely able to put 3 episodes per CD with a 512x384 resolution or 4 episodes per CD with 448x336.

Add to that that 640x480 needs a powerful PC to play fine. Most CPUs with 800MHz and lower have trouble playing such a resolution (mine for example, a P3@667MHz :D)

BTW, you may call 320x240 small, but not 448x336. 448x336 is fair IMHO

[Angrychair]

well, here's an example ep for you.

http://web.mit.edu/zer0el/www/bandersn/[Ishin] Get Backers - 07.avi

It's about 770kbps WITH SOUND. I didn't encode it personally, someone else in my group that takes great weight from my advice did. The quality is pretty good for a TV capture, and the res is 576x432. Not full frame, but not 900kbps either.

[DJ Bobo]

Nani?! 136MB?! forget it man! too much!

Anyway, I can also show you a 100MB file with 640x480 resolution which looks very good ... as long as you're talking about calm scenes! just put some action scenes and you'll see how much blocks there will be!

Add to that that many fansub groups filter the episodes waaaaaay too much, it gets blurred everywhere, so it gets much more compressible than before because almost all details were killed through strong filtering.

Personally I won't go under 230MB if I was to encode in 640x480.
Just to let you know, there is very few anime episodes that get saturated at 230MB with 512x384. So what about 640x480? wanna go the 350MB way? ;)

[Angrychair]

Originally posted by DJ Bobo
Nani?! 136MB?! forget it man! too much!

Anyway, I can also show you a 100MB file with 640x480 resolution which looks very good ... as long as you're talking about calm scenes! just put some action scenes and you'll see how much blocks there will be!

Add to that that many fansub groups filter the episodes waaaaaay too much, it gets blurred everywhere, so it gets much more compressible than before because almost all details were killed through strong filtering.

Personally I won't go under 230MB if I was to encode in 640x480.
Just to let you know, there is very few anime episodes that get saturated at 230MB with 512x384. So what about 640x480? wanna go the 350MB way? ;)

Admittedly, most anime groups don't do as good of a job filtering things as I do (usually blurry as hell, or lots of artifacts from the original tv cap) but it's still a good example that a high bitrate isn't necessary. Like I said, I didn't encode that, I (unfortunately) don't have webspace to host the things I've done.

Really, most of the time for a 'HQ' encode we're shooting for about 900kbps (175 megs per ep).

However, I know it's pretty tough for people to open their mind to the idea that someone else may really know how to do something much better than them, I used to catch that a lot when I first joined the group, now they're glad to have my advice. You can go ahead and encode your eps at 2000kbps if that's what turns your screws, but I don't (personally) find it necessary for properly formatted and filtered anime (the guy that did the ep I posted made the glaring mistake of not cropping, but it still turned out decently).

[LiquidFaction]

what about when the screen flashes during the test clip? isnt anyone else seeing any abnormal breaks or horizontal lines?

maybe it might be time to reformat my comp...

-

I just checked the clips on my other computer, looks fine there - sry for taking up forum space =P

could be one of 2 things, need to reformat, or i really should get around to replacing my voodoo3...

Your right tho, you dont actualy need a high bitrate for good results. The full clips i ripped look crystal clear on my computer (except for that damned bug i've been seeing) when running them fullscreen, and thier only encoded at around 850 kb/s

i'm ripping 3 more episodes at a higher bitrates & resolutions now, im trying to keep the same episodes per DVD on each CD i make (just to preserve a nice solid collecton =)

[manono]

Angrychair-

Cool-Ishin-I absolutely loved Azumanga Daioh. Great anime, decent encoding job, and probably the best subs I've ever seen.

There's something wrong with this example, though. It plays real jerky using an older XviD decoder from Nic. When I switch to ffdshow, it plays OK. Maybe it's got the XviD B-Frames in it, I don't know. But a more serious problem (besides not cropping) is the stuttering pans and scrolls. When it's drawn, for example, as 8 fps, or 3 frames between movement, the numbers are all over the place. For example, in one passage, the number of frames between movement goes 3,2,3,4,1,1,4,4,1,1,4,4,1,1,4,2,1,3. I guess there are 29.97fps Progressive passages in there and that's why the guy kept it at 29.97fps. But personally I think the guy should have decimated it. There's also some interlacing in there. If he used Decomb, I think he should have tweaked the settings better. I'm having similar problems right now with the Excel Saga DVDs which have some 29.97fps Progressive portions. Thanks for making it available.

[Angrychair]

Originally posted by manono
Angrychair-

Cool-Ishin-I absolutely loved Azumanga Daioh. Great anime, decent encoding job, and probably the best subs I've ever seen.

There's something wrong with this example, though. It plays real jerky using an older XviD decoder from Nic. When I switch to ffdshow, it plays OK. Maybe it's got the XviD B-Frames in it, I don't know. But a more serious problem (besides not cropping) is the stuttering pans and scrolls. When it's drawn, for example, as 8 fps, or 3 frames between movement, the numbers are all over the place. For example, in one passage, the number of frames between movement goes 3,2,3,4,1,1,4,4,1,1,4,4,1,1,4,2,1,3. I guess there are 29.97fps Progressive passages in there and that's why the guy kept it at 29.97fps. But personally I think the guy should have decimated it. There's also some interlacing in there. If he used Decomb, I think he should have tweaked the settings better. I'm having similar problems right now with the Excel Saga DVDs which have some 29.97fps Progressive portions. Thanks for making it available.

Like I said, I (unfortunately) didn't encode that, and no eps I have encoded in the past are on any public webspace (that I know of). However, the point isn't as much what our group is doing well or wrong with encodes, the point is that with the latest codecs, you don't need 2000kbps to get a good quality. :)

[coolearl]

LiquidFaction, I'm sorry to back track, but I am also trying to rip the evangelion dvds. The first DVD ripped fine but from the 2nd on have given me fits! I've tried ripping each stream (.m2v and the .ac3). The .ac3 files work beautifully, but the .m2v file reads only 1 second in length but the actual file size is around 3.5 GB's. I've tried using DVDDecryptor and SmartRipper, but both yeild the same results. Did yours do this, if so how did you get around it?

[DJ Bobo]

@ Angrychair
I never said I encode with 2000kbps *lol*
I encode usually 3 to 4 episodes per CD, so I'm in the 1000~1500kbps range.
I get usually an average quantizer around 4, which means the quality is very good and quite near to saturation (saturation is about 3 with b-frames I guess :confused: )
That means the choice of 512x384 for 3-eps-CDs and 448x336 for 4-eps-CDs is good.

I guess I can go a bit higher with the resolution if I filter more, but I just don't have the time to use SmartSmoother. I'm just using TemporalSmoother at a low level (1 or 2)

Note that even if the episodes get saturated and don't reach the desired size, I can reencode the audio part at a higher bitrate, so I hit 2 birds with one stone: perfect divx compression, higher audio quality (higher bitrates than 128kbps are always welcome ;))

My motto is: a perfect rip is a rip that doesn't reach the desired size :D

[Angrychair]

Originally posted by DJ Bobo
@ Angrychair
I never said I encode with 2000kbps *lol*
I encode usually 3 to 4 episodes per CD, so I'm in the 1000~1500kbps range.
I get usually an average quantizer around 4, which means the quality is very good and quite near to saturation (saturation is about 3 with b-frames I guess :confused: )
That means the choice of 512x384 for 3-eps-CDs and 448x336 for 4-eps-CDs is good.

I guess I can go a bit higher with the resolution if I filter more, but I just don't have the time to use SmartSmoother. I'm just using TemporalSmoother at a low level (1 or 2)

Note that even if the episodes get saturated and don't reach the desired size, I can reencode the audio part at a higher bitrate, so I hit 2 birds with one stone: perfect divx compression, higher audio quality (higher bitrates than 128kbps are always welcome ;))

My motto is: a perfect rip is a rip that doesn't reach the desired size :D

Seriously, I just get the feeling it's overkill, but to each their own. (230 megs an ep is PLENTY IMO for 640x480 in 22-24 minute eps) if you want to talk to me on AIM maybe we can work some real time pointers, never know, we might be able to help each other out.

[-h]

Seriously, I just get the feeling it's overkill, but to each their own. (230 megs an ep is PLENTY IMO for 640x480 in 22-24 minute eps) if you want to talk to me on AIM maybe we can work some real time pointers, never know, we might be able to help each other out.

I don't feel that this is enough either, though perhaps in exceptional circumstances.

If you used variable frame rates and a higher skip threshold perhaps, but surely you'd still need some strong filtering. Unfortunately I've trained myself to notice artifacts a bit too well :(

-h

[LiquidFaction]

CoolEarl

i didnt have any problems like your describing,

i used smartripper 2.40 (included with Gknot) to rip the vob files, then i just used DV2AVI to split the vob into the separate episodes.

the only thing i can suggest is to go back to dv2avi and check all your settings, (set dv2avi to yuv color, sound track 1, dolby digital, demux etc.)

i did have a major problem with my audio sync off the first episode tho, the audio doesnt come in till -1447 ms after the video in the first episode, and for some reason dv2avi assumed they both started at 00, so if u have probs with your audio in the first episode, use -1447 ms as your delay

-i'd like to help more but i just finished reformatting my computer and i dont have the original VOB files.

[Pen-Pen]

the only way to get rid of all the artifacts, is to IVTC manually with TMPGEnc... I'm currently busy with my 22th episode, and I can swear it's heavy work, but it's worth it when you love that series as much as I do ;)

[sungey]

hmm i like my rips to be high res ... 640x480 ... so usually i put 3 epi on a cd ...

[Ctrl-Alt-Suppr]

ivtc(70,10,25).BlendFields()


... OK, but what is the equivalent for AviSynth 2.5 ?
( is-there an IVTC-2.2-YV12 ? )

[Awatef]

If you really love the series, better get the remastered japanese DVDs, they are progressive ;)

[magomago]

Odd...I used Gknot and it ripped just fine :) (even the credits are perfect) 640*464 @ ~1800kbps (save for the last twoish episodes...they went down to about 275 megs but that episodes has a LOT of still pictures so I'm not suprised it went down 75 megs lower than normal)

[Awatef]

No, it's not ripping "just fine".
I would say, it's "unrippable", because there is no way to get good quality rips out of these crappy DVDs!

You've gotta pay more attention to the motion jerkyness and to the excessive ghosting ;)

You saying it's ripping "just fine" shows you have no experience whatsoever :D

[manono]

Hi-

Take it easy on him, Awatef. We all know that Eva is the worst mastered anime NTSC DVD out there (unless Record Of Lodoss War is). Maybe when magomago revisits them in 6 months, he'll better understand the problems with it. But we're doing this for fun, and I don't think you have a right to try and take that away from him. I'd say we NTSC anime lovers are lucky not to be living in a PAL country where every single one has problems like Eva. You just can't return unblended, smooth playing, progressive frames.

On a side note, a while back I sent a piece of a vob from Eva to neuron2, and he just laughed and said to forget trying to IVTC it.

[Ctrl-Alt-Suppr]

I used Gknot and it ripped just fine
This is a nice & very technical remark ...

In YUY2 with IVTC.dll + Donald's Mpeg2Dec2 the result is acceptable.
With AviSynth 2.5x, ... bearrrkkkkk

If you want a piece of .vob :
http://ctrl.alt.suppr.54.free.fr/Eva.vob



PS : Sorry for my very bad english.

[N_F]

@Ctrl-Alt-Suppr - Are you saying you used IVTC on that vob source you provided? I have only looked at it briefly as I don't have the proper tools on this computer (I downloaded DVD2AVI to check it), but it's PAL 25 fps. IVTC should not be used on this.

[Ctrl-Alt-Suppr]

Ok ... so what is the correct fonction to deinterlace this anime ?

( Perhaps, IVTC.dll is not adapted, but it's with it that I obtain best result. )

[Awatef]

:D

Applied IVTC on a PAL DVD

:D :D

And got fine results he says

:D :D :D

ctrl-alt-suppr, whenever you see a PAL anime DVD that is interlaced, always apply:

FieldDeinterlace(full=true,dthreshold=0)

This is your only option!

*NEVER* apply IVTC on PAL video, NEVER! don't even think about it!

NB: for fieldshifted DVDs (actually progressive but with wrong field order):
Telecide(post=false)
The result should be 100% smooth and no ghosts whatsoever will appear.
If you don't get smooth playback, the DVD is not fieldshifted!

[magomago]

Who says I'm a PALer? :D

And it really does look perfect! No interlacing, the credits are perfect!

[Awatef]

@ magomago
Anyone can get rid of interlacing, that's not the problem! :D
It's all about motion and to get rid of the ghosts, which is impossible.
Second, you say good looking credits?! the credits of Eva are nothing but an almost still frame with Rei rotating. It will look good anyway, because motion is very minimal. I can decimate it to 8fps and it will still look good :D

[jggimi]

Awatef's point is if you use IVTC on a 25 fps source, you will end up with 19fps.

What is the framerate of your finished avi?

[Ctrl-Alt-Suppr]

FieldDeinterlace(full=true,dthreshold=0) ...
I do several tests before posting here and the result was bad. (artefacts are presents on some frames, and outline are trouble on all frames.)


avi framerate is 25fps ... so, is there any solution ?

[hakko504]

Originally posted by jggimi
Awatef's point is if you use IVTC on a 25 fps source, you will end up with 19fps. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked, 25*4/5=20fps...:rolleyes: ;)

[Awatef]

@ ctrl-alt-suppr
There is nothing else you can do with a crappy PAL source! you've got to live with the "artefacts" you get (you're talking about the ghosting I guess, because deinterlacing doesn't introduce artefacting). You can go blame the studio that made your DVD for taking NTSC masters as source instead of original negatives to make a progressive transfer!

[jggimi]

Hakko -- got me again, didn't you! :stupid:

[GrimJim]

Encoding Neon Genesis Evangelion is a pain, but it looks like there is going to be a newly telecined release in a few months. They have a test DVD of the first episode to sample with this new telecide now. Perhaps this new version will be better.

Official site:
http://www.gainax.co.jp/anime/eva/index.html#news

Nice place to buy from:
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=KIBA-1000

Cheers.

[Trip Machine]

While we're on this issue of NGE, I was just wondering:

I find that for Region1 DVD's, if I IVTC, the credits usually end up jerky and jumpy when it's scrolling. But I can't see a large difference in the main movie when it's 29.97 or 23.976 fps. There's some after effects of ghosting but not that much to my eyes. And it appears smoother too when the camera is panning/trucking. Or maybe I should get new prescription glasses? :confused:

I've done 4 dvds now with a framerate of 29.97 but I'll probably wait for an answer before deciding to do some more.

PS: Those funny breaks and white lines found at the bottom and top of the video during a scene change (what's the technical name for them anyway?) are also found in the Berserk series as well and DragonBall Z DVDs.

[Sirber]

I compressed them with no problem.

[RadicalEd]

Originally posted by GrimJim
Encoding Neon Genesis Evangelion is a pain, but it looks like there is going to be a newly telecined release in a few months. They have a test DVD of the first episode to sample with this new telecide now. Perhaps this new version will be better.

Official site:
http://www.gainax.co.jp/anime/eva/index.html#news

Nice place to buy from:
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=KIBA-1000

Cheers.

I hear that on the test type dvd just force film works ;o
Renewal is going to kick ass.

Some example screens off the newtype preview disc (left side is renewal, right is original):
http://www.ermacstudios.org/EvaRenewal/

[amoeba]

I've been ripping the Neon Genisis episodes and also have found the interface on the edge of the frame, however i have kept the DivXs the same as on the dvd's ie. 4 eps on the 1st 2 dvds then 3 per cd for the others and have achieved good quality so far at 640x480. I'm encoding from a PAL source though so i just have basic interlacing to handle.