3ivx D4

[bullitB]

Yet another MPEG-4 video codec. Actually, this one is pretty damn slick. Unlike previous release, this fully runs on both Windows and Mac, and can use the Video for Windows. And the decoder has really serious post processing.

http://www.3ivx.com/

Anyone want to try it out and do some DivX/XviD comparison? I was able to encode a movie trailer at 800 kbits/sec off a DVD, and the results were...really good.

[spyder]

It sucks.

The lumimasking they have is too high. It is very effective for low bitrates but murder on higher ones. It has the same blurring problem as VP3, it tends to blur the still, non-complex parts of a image. Again, good for low rates. The stream is spec compliant as xvid gracefully decodes it. And also the decoder is spec compliant. It decodes even the latest development xvid encodes very well considering it seems to have no qpel support. It has frequently misplaced MBs because of that I think. The post processing they use is very heavy. ffdshow doesn't even get that heavy on the highest settings. But it really seems to blur then. There's no comparison between it and the latest Xvid stuff.

[bullitB]

Originally posted by spyder
The stream is spec compliant as xvid gracefully decodes it. And also the decoder is spec compliant. It decodes even the latest development xvid encodes very well considering it seems to have no qpel support. It has frequently misplaced MBs because of that I think.

You seem pretty sure that XviD is spec compliant.

[spyder]

Well, if it decodes in thre "spec compliant" implementations.....

I'm willing to say that yes.

[sillKotscha]

... but imho the decoder does a very good job at least for me/ my eyes. I tested the decoder on high-bitrate encoded movies as well and I must say I can't see that much blurring - post processing seems to work quite/ very well. But one thing was just annoying... to test the decoder capabilities I had to uninst. DivX and untick ffdshow 'DivX 5 as supported codec' - is there an easier way of letting 3ivx D4_decoder decode divx encoded movies than just uninstalling everything divx related??...

cheers & thanks - Sill

[DeXT]

Althought I'm not interested on encoding with this CODEC, I love the MP4 DirectShow filters for Windows Media Player included with this package. Now I can play MP4 files with WMP without having to install Envivio Plugin... it's fast and it even works with files made with MPEG4IP. Do you want more? ;)

[sillKotscha]

Originally posted by DeXT
Althought I'm not interested on encoding with this CODEC, I love the MP4 DirectShow filters for Windows Media Player included with this package.

yeah, that's it... me neither, I don't like to encode with it but like to decode my divx encoded movies - but as I said, the only (?) way to use the 3ivx D4_decoder for divX5 is to get rid/ uninst. divx and that shouldn't be the solution!!

Sill

[Valky]

I seem to have very much problems with this. I would like to test this decoder to some poorly encoded 3.11 stuff, but is it possible with Bsplayer or Viplayer?
I can watch divx movies through QT-player, but is that all? There is no quality slider or anything so is there some 'default setting' in it pre-prosessing that cannot be adjusted?

[phrentec]

how come doom9 hasn't posted the new 3ivx release in the news section? does doom9 like to post stuff that only he is interested in? maybe i'm wrong but i still haven't seen him even mention it, yet.

[rjamorim]

Originally posted by phrentec
does doom9 like to post stuff that only he is interested in?

I guess he only posts stuff most readers are interested in.

And I reckon most readers are interested in DivX and Xvid, not 3ivx.

Regards;

Roberto.

[Neo Neko]

Untill possibly quite recently there had been no real development over the last two years on the 3vix front in refference to the pathetic state it was in. If a project is silent for all that time you are gonna have a hard time holding your breath for news.

Also AFAIK no one on the 3vix team or anyone interested in 3vix has brought this up before. If no one asks or shows interest why should he. Perhaps now is the time for us all to re-evaluate. We shall have to see.

[Neo Neko]

Observations after a short test.

It encodes a hulluvalot faster than previous versions IIRC.

The quality is palletable. No 2-pass. But it is better than stock Divx3 me thinks.

It conflicts with about every other MPEG4 codec using Bytes instead of bits for datarate. :rolleyes:

Not bad. But alot of room for improvement.:sly:

[Valky]

Thank you, gabe. This new MPC gives me chance to test this decoder. Unfortunately it only works if I first un-install Divx 5 codec. Otherwise the Divx codec always overrides the 3ivx even if the 3ivx is set on the top of video decoder filters :(

[Valky]

Actually, I am now only able to use this player with this codec. Neither Bsplayer or viplayer no longer works.

Is it possible somehow to use this player only with realmedia and with 3ivx codec and not to uninstall Divx decoder, so that I can still use other players too? So that this player could somehow to be able override divx decoder if man wants to?

I also noticed that I cant watch couple of my movies now with small resolutions like 352x288 or 360*270 ?? These are avi files and divx files.

I have been able to watch them with other players and divx codec. Is this 3ivx or new MPC?

also resolutions 640x480, 576x432 and 512x384 are out of game, but NOT 480x352..

I dont know what's happening here..something very unstable. Doesn't seem to open any files no longer without crashing to white screen. Could be the 3ivx codec. Can't reboot right now, but I'll try again later. And yes, it still open s those 4:3 simpsons, but nothing else...

[Kb_cruncher]

the only (?) way to use the 3ivx D4_decoder for divX5 is to get rid/ uninst. divx and that shouldn't be the solution!!

Zoomplayer should do this nicely.Check out my reply to this post for more info...........http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37822

[sillKotscha]

Thanks for your reply Kb_cruncher,

I see it is possible to build 'my own .mediagraph' but look at Valky's reply... the new MPC (great player as well!!) recognizes all installed filters and as it is said:

"The selected filters will be tried and inserted between the decoder and renderer in the listed order. Incompatible filters are removed automatically after failing to connect."

So, I can see '3ivx D4 video decoder' as a decoder filter. But even if I tick it to decode my movies (DivX5 is untick in ffdshow), the 'normal' DivX_decoder 'jumps in front' and decodes the movies. Sorry again for my silly and dumb question - how can I 'tell' DivX5_decoder not to decode any movie (propably unregister the decoder filter) but that I still can use divx5 to encode my movies?? As far as I know, unregistering means to unregister the whole codec, not only it's decoding capabilities.

Sill

[DeXT]

Just as a side effect... thanks to this CODEC now you can watch MP4 files burned on a XCD!!!

MP4 was not supported under XCD (Mode2 CD Maker) due to the lack of good MP4 DirectShow filters. Thanks to the new MP4 DSF included with 3ivx, now it works like a charm! The only annoyance is, you can't seek the video because WMP hangs (althought I'm not sure if it's due to a bug or incompatibility with the XCD filter because it also hangs randomly with "pure" MP4 files when seeking). Strangely enough, it doesn't hang when DebugView is active, dunno why.

I start to LOVE this CODEC ;)

PS: I'm not interested on the 3ivx decoder either, just the MP4 (MPEG-4 File Format) support.

[spyder]

The postprocessing and MP4 support is nice but the encoding is horrid.

[baz00ie]

I think "horrid" is a bit strong. I've completed several tests with it and have yet to see anything "horrid". In fact I've had more trouble with Xvid then I've had with this codec. Of course I don't do much DVD ripping, but instead, I need a codec that's suitable for video archiving (good image/playback quality and small file size).

After making a video for a customer, I will then archive it and later use it for making copies onto VHS. I need something that fills certain requirements - quick, easy, excellent quality and smooth playback. Using my test video clip i've discovered that some codecs fail at higher bit rates - such as DivX5 and Xvid.

At this time my main archiving codec is DivX4.12. However, if 3ivX continues to pass my tests then i may consider switching to it, because it can do the same job in less time.

As for two-pass encoding, well, the most common codec still seems to be DivX 3.11, and it can't do two-pass without external help.

so far, i like it.

later
baz

[-h]

After making a video for a customer, I will then archive it and later use it for making copies onto VHS. I need something that fills certain requirements - quick, easy, excellent quality and smooth playback. Using my test video clip i've discovered that some codecs fail at higher bit rates - such as DivX5 and Xvid.

I know XviD's motion estimation can break down at extremely low bitrates, but I've never heard a complaint about its performance when fine quantizers are used.

What exactly happened?

-h

[baz00ie]

hey mon,
Well, with Xvid, I found that i was getting some macro-blocks when ever there was a severe and/or rapid change in focus from a foreground object to a background object - for example: the camera will be focused on some small objects sitting on a table, then someone walks into the room and the focus changes to that person. For me, the macro-blocks would occur during the transition, but not before or after. Sometimes the blocks are bearly noticable and at other times they're huge.

I'm not sure if anyone else has seen this, but for me it just puts a tiny bit of doubt in my mind about using the codec at this time.

Other than that, i like it alot. playback is smooth and the image quality (in general) is damn good.

take care
baz

[rincy2000]

AFAIK german dicas also distributes a free MPEG-4 DS-Filter called "mpegable DS decoder" (see http://www.mpegable.de). It plays ISO-MPEG-4 and you don't have to uninstall DivX 5.x to use it ;-)

[zulu]

AFAIK german dicas also distributes a free MPEG-4 DS-Filter called "mpegable DS decoder" (see http://www.mpegable.de). It plays ISO-MPEG-4 and you don't have to uninstall DivX 5.x to use it ;-)

hey, that sounds damn cool! anybody tested it yet? does it support aac audio?

[CavalloPazzo]

I've tested it some time ago but files seems to be not seekable :( , making it totally unusable.
Anyway it supports aac and has the possibility to connect output of the splitter to other video decoders (FFdshow and Xvid),that's not possible with 3ivx dsf.

[mtrooper]

Did anyone acutally make the MPEG4 DS filters work? They work for me if mp4 is without audio (be ti aac or cbr mp3), video was: a) file divx 5.02 with B-Frames and GMC b) Divx 5.02 without B-Frames and GMC c) XviD
the result was always the same.
mp4 files ware made by mp4creator60 0.9.7 and psytel's aacenc MPEG4 (also tried "normal" aacenc).
At the moment I'm open to suggestions.

Will try mpegable's DS filters.

[cjv]

I can confirm that these filters _do not_ work for me either if the mp4 contains any audio, (aac/mp3) but they do work for video-only. They crashed every player I tried (mplayer2, mpc, zoom, bsplayer), and the player had to be killed manually. Platform: Win2k SP3.

cjv

[ChannelK]

@sillKotscha

(If you still havent found a solution)
For a permanent solution to the choice of playback filter used, try changing the priority of the codec. This involves registry editing but is somewhat straight forward. Check out [URL=http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19404[/URL]

Basically the same as that but set the MP4 filter to have a higher priority than divx5 as WMP simply goes through the intalled filters in order of priority untill a succesfull filter is found.

[ChannelK]

(bugger, yet another stuffed up link LOL)

[Selur]

hmm,.. I just did a small encoding comparison with different codecs (m$v3,divx4.12,DivX5.0.2, Xvid, 3ivX) on max quality level, and I have to say: 3ivX won, it didn't show any ringing artefacts, all the other codecs did.

filesize produced by (on max quality):
m$v3 3.454KB
divx4.12 7.052KB
DivX5.0.2 7.142KB
Xvid 4.316KB
3ivX 7.646KB
(duration of the clip is 35sec)

So 3ivX produced the biggest file size, but at least the ringing is gone.
So my conclusion is that it really might be worth to test an upcomeing 3ivX release,.. especially if 2pass encoding is supported and the postprocessing filter are more configurable.

Cu Selur

[Blight]

You can use the Zoom Player Registered Filter Editor to change this filter's merit to that above ffdshow's and it'll playback any format it supports ontop of all other filters, then knock it down or uninstall when you're tired of it.

[Valky]

Blight, could you kindly do this kind of filter chain if it is possible to do zoomplayer just with 3ivx, so that I dont have to uninstall divx 5.02?

I tried but couldn't do it without deleting divx registry filters in zoomplayer. And after that I couldn't use divx in other players too :(

[mikeson]

@Selur:

What exact settings did you use for each codec? In which method do you encode (AviSynth,mpeg2dec3,filters)? Please post your codec settings and AviSynth scripts.

[Selur]

"What exact settings did you use for each codec? In which method do you encode (AviSynth,mpeg2dec3,filters)? Please post your codec settings and AviSynth scripts."

3ivX: min Quantizer = 2; variable Bitrate;
Xivd: 1pass Quality 100/90/80/75%; tested with b-frames enabled; with bframes+qpel enabled; with bframes+qpel+dyn hpel/qpel; with bframes+qpel+dyn hpel/qpel+chroma and with b-frames&chroma; and with everything disabled
(hail to Virtual Dub Mod's joblist)
motion search: 6
Quantizer: new Modulated, also tested the others with some settings
Max I frame: 300
min I frame: 1
min/max Quantizer: 2/6 and 2/12
Only did 2 full movie encodes.(on max quality; did the rest with clips from matrix)
(used current unstable version from Koepi);
DivX5: 1pass quality 100%, rest standard
M$v3: full crispness, datarate 6000

in the avs file I used:
mpeg2dec3, decombyv12 and lanczosresize
(also tested mpeg2dec, decomb and lanczosresize, but didn't see any differens in quality)

Did I miss something?

Cu Selur

Ps.: Yeah, tested with a resolution of 512*208 and 704*288

[mikeson]

@Selur:

Xivd: 1pass Quality 100/90/80/75%; tested with b-frames enabled; with bframes+qpel enabled; with bframes+qpel+dyn hpel/qpel; with bframes+qpel+dyn hpel/qpel+chroma and with b-frames&chroma; and with everything disabled

Do not use any extra features when comparing max quality of codec regardless filesize

So use no B-frames, Qpel or chroma with XviD.

min/max Quantizer: 2/6 and 2/12

Does not have influence when doing 1pass quantizer 2 encode (and it is what we want to do).

(also tested mpeg2dec, decomb and lanczosresize, but didn't see any differens in quality)

Was source interlaced?

So my conclusion is that it really might be worth to test an upcomeing 3ivX release,.. especially if 2pass encoding is supported and the postprocessing filter are more configurable.

I don't thing we should use postprocessing while measuring codecs. ;)

@all:

In my tests 3vix failed when using AviSynthYV12 and Fast recompress (other codecs work fine), so I had to use Full processing mode (so no advatage using YV12 :( )

Results:
Tested clip - LOTR 3:32 (when Gandalf arrives to The Shire)
AviSynthYV12, mpeg2dec3YV12 0.94, no additional filtering

#--PLUGINS---------------------------------------------------#
LoadPlugin("D:\Program Files\DivX\AviSynth_filters\yv12\MPEG2dec3YV12.dll")
#
#--SOURCE----------------------------------------------------#
mpeg2source("E:\DivX\VOB\Lord of the Rings\Lord of the Rings.d2v",idct=4)
#
#--CROPPING--------------------------------------------------#
Crop(0,66,720,444)
#
#--RESIZING--------------------------------------------------#
LanczosResize(720,304)
#


3viX constant quality Q2
filesize: 71,202,816 bytes

DivX5 1pass quality-based Q2 with Qpel,GMC,b-frames and PEL
filesize: 47,804,416 bytes

DivX5 1pass quality-based Q2 with no additional features
filesize: 71,383,040 bytes

XviD (Koepi's 091202) Q2 with b-frames (100/150/3), qpel/hpel, chroma
filesize: 46,209,024 bytes

XviD (Koepi's 091202) Q2 with b-frames (100/150/3), qpel/hpel, chroma, lumi
filesize: 48,562,176 bytes

XviD (Koepi's 091202) Q2 with no additional features
filesize: 72,431,616 bytes

So I don't see any problem in XviD max quality as filesize was very close to other codec's filesize. Regardless XviD has the most crisp and sharp image with most details IMHO. 3vix was blurried, DivX5 also, but a little bit less.

[Selur]

"Do not use any extra features when comparing max quality of codec regardless filesize"
I know, I did this first, that's what I ment with "everything disabled" :D

"So use no B-frames, Qpel or chroma with XviD."
If this is ment to be a general statement, tell me why?

"Does not have influence when doing 1pass quantizer 2 encode (and it is what we want to do)."
I know, jsut posted it because I thought somebody might ask ;)

"Was source interlaced?"
yes, thats why I did IVTC with decomb ;)
(used the ntsc version of matrix)

"I don't thing we should use postprocessing while measuring codecs."
U are right, but if I test a codec I also like to play a bit with the postprocessign settings ;)


"In my tests 3vix failed when using AviSynthYV12 and Fast recompress (other codecs work fine), so I had to use Full processing mode (so no advatage using YV12 )"
Yes, same for me,.. but it's still fast

"So I don't see any problem in XviD max quality as filesize was very close to other codec's filesize. Regardless XviD has the most crisp and sharp image with most details IMHO. 3vix was blurried, DivX5 also, but a little bit less."

He,he may be I mislead u with my post, I just wanted to mention that there are a bunch of movies out there which don't reach the size of a 2 Cd rip and so turn up undersozed. 3ivX kind of shows us in my point of view, that there's still some emprovement possible. I mean it definitly didn't have so much ringing and unwanted noise (at max quality), like I'm used to see with DivX&Xvid.

Cu Selur

[mikeson]

@Selur:

"So use no B-frames, Qpel or chroma with XviD."

AFAIK 3vix doesn't support b-frames, qpel, gmc, luma and so on. So while measuring codec capabilities, it would be wise to switch them off in all encodes.

In my "real life" encodes I use them, of course. But this is just codec comparing.

"Does not have influence when doing 1pass quantizer 2 encode (and it is what we want to do)."
I know, jsut posted it because I thought somebody might ask

I see. ;)

"I don't thing we should use postprocessing while measuring codecs."
U are right, but if I test a codec I also like to play a bit with the postprocessign settings

I understand, but you cannot compare codecs like that IMO.


I mean it definitly didn't have so much ringing and unwanted noise (at max quality), like I'm used to see with DivX&Xvid.

It's because of heavy blurring (especially on not focused "background").
Btw for noise reduction, there are bunch of AviSynth filters, that don't blur so much (Vlad's C3D or Marc's tiya3dd for example).

[Selur]

"I understand, but you cannot compare codecs like that IMO."
at least not if u just want to compare the quality ;)

"It's because of heavy blurring (especially on not focused "background").Btw for noise reduction, there are bunch of AviSynth filters, that don't blur so much (Vlad's C3D or Marc's tiya3dd for example)."
I know but the thing is u normaly still got ringing effects even if u use denoise filter,... and I really don't like these ringing 'arefacts',..

Cu Selur

[Wilbert]

"In my tests 3vix failed when using AviSynthYV12 and Fast recompress (other codecs work fine), so I had to use Full processing mode (so no advatage using YV12 )" Yes, same for me,.. but it's still fast

What do you mean with "failed"?

[mikeson]

@Wilbert:

I mean that 3ivx does not support YV12 IMHO. Because the result was 500kb avi (instead of 75mb) and there was no video (just green screen).

Don't worry, I think it definitely is not fault of AviSynthYV12. ;)

[Selur]

argh, found my mistake :)
quality=100% != quantizer=1

Cu Selur

[Stux]

Originally posted by sillKotscha
... but imho the decoder does a very good job at least for me/ my eyes. I tested the decoder on high-bitrate encoded movies as well and I must say I can't see that much blurring - post processing seems to work quite/ very well. But one thing was just annoying... to test the decoder capabilities I had to uninst. DivX and untick ffdshow 'DivX 5 as supported codec' - is there an easier way of letting 3ivx D4_decoder decode divx encoded movies than just uninstalling everything divx related??...

cheers & thanks - Sill

We're working on adding priority settings for the various formats 3ivx can decode. This might not be in the next update, but we're working on it.

[Stux]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
It conflicts with about every other MPEG4 codec using Bytes instead of bits for datarate.

Point taken, we're thinking about adding a KBps/kbps switch

[sillKotscha]

Originally posted by Stux
We're working on adding priority settings for the various formats 3ivx can decode. This might not be in the next update, but we're working on it.

oh wow, great news

thanks Stux for your info - appreciated

cheers Sill

[Stux]

Originally posted by mtrooper
Did anyone acutally make the MPEG4 DS filters work? They work for me if mp4 is without audio (be ti aac or cbr mp3), video was: a) file divx 5.02 with B-Frames and GMC b) Divx 5.02 without B-Frames and GMC c) XviD
the result was always the same.
mp4 files ware made by mp4creator60 0.9.7 and psytel's aacenc MPEG4 (also tried "normal" aacenc).
At the moment I'm open to suggestions.

Will try mpegable's DS filters.

Obviously, its supposed to work, but there is a lot of variance in MP4 files at the moment, and a lot of variance in AAC implementations.

We are working towards total mp4 compatibility, but need your help :)

If you find bugs, or problems with the codec suite the best thing to do is report it on our forums at http://forums.3ivx.com

Also, if you can make smallish test files available on the internet for us to get (ftp/http etc) then that helps a lot as we can then add them to our test suites.

Thankyou

[Stux]

Originally posted by Selur
hmm,.. I just did a small encoding comparison with different codecs (m$v3,divx4.12,DivX5.0.2, Xvid, 3ivX) on max quality level, and I have to say: 3ivX won, it didn't show any ringing artefacts, all the other codecs did.

Cu Selur
:)

[Stux]

Originally posted by mikeson
@Selur:
I don't thing we should use postprocessing while measuring codecs. ;)


Well, you should at least try watching the video with our post-processing filters, they're really quite good ;), and are a major part of the decoder

Originally posted by mikeson
@all:

In my tests 3vix failed when using AviSynthYV12 and Fast recompress (other codecs work fine), so I had to use Full processing mode (so no advatage using YV12 :( )


There is a bug in PR2 which slipped in at the last moment, basically YV12 input doesn't work. Its already fixed in the CVS and will be in the next update.

We really do need bug reports and feedback, and the best place for bug reports/feedback is on our forums

[Stux]

Originally posted by sillKotscha
oh wow, great news

thanks Stux for your info - appreciated

cheers Sill

You're welcome :)

I hope you guys enjoy playing with the codec :)

[mikeson]

@Stux:

There is a bug in PR2 which slipped in at the last moment, basically YV12 input doesn't work. Its already fixed in the CVS and will be in the next update

It's good to hear. :)

[Marc FD]

hi ^___^

>Well, you should at least try watching the video with our
>post-processing filters, they're really quite good , and are a major
>part of the decoder

maybe it's clean&fast, but i think it would be even better if it worked ^_^
IMHO, it lacks a emms.

for the encoder, not bad, it's approximatively as good as the 6 months
old XviD and DivX (basic) encoders i reinstalled for my testing.

Cheers,
MarcFD

(btw, i'm running on athlon XP 1600+ / 256 Mo DDR)

[mikeson]

@MarcFD:

:D