audio syncing.....puzzles me,help from pros needed.

[toolman2k]

hi all,

ive been transcoding dvd's to make them fit on dvd-r for a while now.but getting the audio to sync with video still is just a lucky shot for me.

i simply transcode with CCE (which by the way always gives me few frames shorter file then the source?!)

the ac3 is stripped with dvd2avi.

i use meastro to put it all together.

no matter what i do i cant get the syncing exactly right....i tried ac3delaycorrector to cut out the delay, made sync track in maeastro, both combined even. even when dvd2avi says it has 0ms delay....it still is out of sync (probably because the video is always couple frames shorter)

anybody know what to do ?? this is getting my crazy.. i mean it takes a long time multiplex all that stuff before i can check it....

[ramutan]

Originally posted by toolman2k

the ac3 is stripped with dvd2avi.


What do you mean by stripped with DVD2AVI?
can define this for me??
:confused:

[toolman2k]

Originally posted by ramutan
What do you mean by stripped with DVD2AVI?
can define this for me??
:confused:

well open the vobs in dvd2avi and demuxed the ac3.

[atreides93]

When you go from DVD2AVI to cce, are you using the VFAPI method or the AviSynth method?

I used both and I found that when using AviSynth 2.05 my resulting mpeg2 file was the same length as my ac3 file!
But when I used the VFAPI method, my mpeg2 file was 4 seconds shorter!

Is that what you're experiencing?? If so, try AviSynth and report back please.
:D

[ramutan]

As oposed to atreides93 I use the VFAPI and my audio and video are in sync, same zise.
I haven't yet tried AviSynth but just follow atreides93 suggestion and post your results for more input.:o

[toolman2k]

Originally posted by atreides93
When you go from DVD2AVI to cce, are you using the VFAPI method or the AviSynth method?

I used both and I found that when using AviSynth 2.05 my resulting mpeg2 file was the same length as my ac3 file!
But when I used the VFAPI method, my mpeg2 file was 4 seconds shorter!

Is that what you're experiencing?? If so, try AviSynth and report back please.
:D

yes sorry, i am using avisynth 2.07 for frameserving..since vfapi cannot feed YUV directly to CCE.....and i tried both using the original vobs as input and the demuxed m2v....both same story :(

[toolman2k]

oh and i have to say im doing PAL only movies.so its not the framerate problem thing:)

I will try to get Meastro preview working...and then hopefully i can get it sync by palying around with it....im very keen on seeing/hearing the sync, but still.....there should be a way of doing it by software frame accurate.after this is a pro package!

ok say i get it to work....then is meastro able to shift the video/audio track back AND forward frame accurately? i tried similar things before.....but the video always "snaps" to the audio track.

example: say i have audio track that is 3 frames ahead of video, there are 2 options in meastro:

1. move the video track 3 frames further
2. move the audio track 3 frames back

BUT, meastro doesnt let me do this! the video always snaps to the start of audio track ...so if i try to move it forward, it just jump back to aling wiht the audio track.

also, i can move the audio track back, say into the "minus area", cause that thing snaps to video track!

so....basically i can only move stuff forward, correcting positive video delays / negative audio delays..... right ?

is there any setting or ket i have to press to do this ? or is this simply not possible in meastro ? i tried to hold shift,ctrl,alt down...but all it enables me to do is shorten the tracks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, another thing that i know i can do is do it all in ifoedit.i know that.i use it mostly for just stripping unwanted stuff with the "VOB extras" button and burn it back.perfect.no hassle with audio or video delays,no subs crap,chapters are in place.easy.

I know there an option to tick the "remux" box and feed it your new m2v file.i tried it but the result was the video going high speed and async with audio.just like u play it in powerdvd and try to fast forward....it doesnt slow down anymore.also the time is not correct, it says like 389 minutes left, while its a 2 hour movie.

I think this has something to do with the PTS (Program Time/track search) not being present in the encoded m2v.thats why in maestro it does work cause during muxing it adds PTS to the m2v.but not the same in ifoedit.

anybody knows a way to do it in ifoedit? if yes, thatwould be awesome,since then all i have to do is transcode, put it back with remuxing option in ifoedit (VOB extras).click the stuff i want to keep and done.

[dannyv]

Originally posted by toolman2k
i can move the audio track back, say into the "minus area", cause that thing snaps to video track!

so....basically i can only move stuff forward, correcting positive video delays / negative audio delays..... right ?

is there any setting or ket i have to press to do this ? or is this simply not possible in meastro ? i tried to hold shift,ctrl,alt down...but all it enables me to do is shorten the tracks.


The only thing you can do is align the audio to the video (move the audio). One trick I do for negitive is shorten the audio using ac3 delay corrector by putting in a negitive number e.g. -89. This shortens the audio stream into the negitive area and allows you to slide it positive. You can find ac3 delay corrector here http://www.doom9.org/Soft21/Audio/ac3delay_all.zip

[cinephile]

To resolve synch issues, I do either/combination of the following:

1. position the audio exactly to the frame I want on the timeline and then right click "lock track asset". Max zoom to do this.

2. "create synch audio track" by similar method and allow Maestro to try and synch it for you (although this has not always worked for me).

3. use Ac3 Delay corrector to correct the delay. For -ive delays, it is often easier to correct the delay by a larger -ive number to the nearest frame (in order to force a +ive delay so you can position the audio after the video).

4. insert a black bmp (resolution of the aspect) at the start of the video timeline (snaps to 15 frames) to allow you to position the audio before the video. Note that this may slightly offset your chapter points (but only by the audio offset).

If you wish, test by compiling for about 20 sec, load created VOB into DVD2AVI, select track and demux. The look at the filename for the delay.

All these methods I have read on this forum.

[dannyv]

Originally posted by cinephile
To resolve synch issues, I do either/combination of the following:

1. position the audio exactly to the frame I want on the timeline and then right click "lock track asset". Max zoom to do this.



I've offset the audio on the time line but I never locked the track asset because I never saw a need to. What does lock track asset do that just moving the audio on the time line doesn't?

Also I've noticed that in most cases when using tmpgenc to transcode, the audio in the beginning of the movie starts out in sync but gradually goes out of sync and can be as much as 1 second out of sync by the end of the movie. If I use rempeg this does not happen but the video quality is not as good. Does anyone have a solution to this?

This thread may be a good place to discuss these issues, sucesses or failures. If enough people get talking about these issues maybe we can come up with some solutions. I know the problem exist because I read thread after thread on this subject usually ending up with little to no solution.

[toolman2k]

Originally posted by cinephile
To resolve synch issues, I do either/combination of the following:

3. use Ac3 Delay corrector to correct the delay. For -ive delays, it is often easier to correct the delay by a larger -ive number to the nearest frame (in order to force a +ive delay so you can position the audio after the video).



thanks alot!

i have some questions though:

3. can u explain this method with an example ? im a little confused on how this exactly works ....like how do i know the nearest frame etc.

[dannyv]

Originally posted by toolman2k
thanks alot!

i have some questions though:

3. can u explain this method with an example ? im a little confused on how this exactly works ....like how do i know the nearest frame etc.

First off the key is to get the preview working in maestro. Install the cinemaster 2000 codec to get this going (e-mail me if you can't find it).

I never use ac3 delay corrector to correct positive (+) delays. I just slide the audio on the time line 2 or 4 frames at a time until it's in sync. To do this use the zoom buttons and zoom in until the time line shows the frames in 2 increment steps. Then slide the audio forward until the audio is in sync.

To correct negitive (-) delays I use ac3 delay corrector to remove frames from the audio to shorten it.
Open delay corrector and choose the .ac3 file in the source window. Accept the default target name and put a -120 in the delay box. This will cut approx 4 frames from the audio (32ms = 1 frame). Now remove the old audio file from the time line and insert the new file and slide it forward until you get proper sync.

[toolman2k]

thanks alot man! i have tried to install cinemaster 2000 dvd codec (not the player, so i selected dvd codec only during setup), but the RT preview still doesnt work on meastro, any ideas ?

[dannyv]

Originally posted by toolman2k
thanks alot man! i have tried to install cinemaster 2000 dvd codec (not the player, so i selected dvd codec only during setup), but the RT preview still doesnt work on meastro, any ideas ?

1. Make sure your using cinemaster 2000 and not cineplayer.

2. In maestro go to file/preferences/decoder and make sure "ravisent cinemaster hardware decoder" is selected. If the selections are not selectable it means the codec is not installed correctly or not present at all. In that case uninstall cinemaster 2000 and dvd maestro and FIRST re-install the entire cinemaster 2000 program including the player then SECOND re-install maestro. Its important to install them in that order.

If nothing works check version numbers.

I use maestro v2.9.2915a and cinemaster 2000 v1.0

Let me know how you make out.

[atreides93]

i wonder why you have to manually sync the audio in the first place. does everyone have this problem? is it only with pal movies?
i've been re-encoding movies using DVD2AVI AViSynth and CCE and i haven't had any audio sync problems so far. i don't do any manual correction other than using ac3delay set to whatever dvd2avi reports in the file name for the ac3 file it demuxed.
then I reauthor it using spruce up.

So far, the audio sync has been perfect. i gave a copy to a friend and asked him to judge the audio sync for me, he said it was perfect. and he's caught other dvd's i've made before where i didn't think there was an audio sync problem but he did. he's more "sensitive" to it than i am

[toolman2k]

this is drivin me nuts!

i got the preivew working.

but i cant get the sync to work.....ive been shifting around for an hour now.....no exact match yet!

so i tried to compile a few secs, then let dvd2avi tell me what delay it was....it said -80ms.so i put in the ac3 in ac3corrector,put in -80 and then put the track into maeastro.when i compiled again it still said -80 ! how can that be ???

i thought this was a good way of doing it exact, instead of shifting for hours in meastro......

[dannyv]

Originally posted by atreides93
i wonder why you have to manually sync the audio in the first place. does everyone have this problem? is it only with pal movies?


It actually seems to be mostly ntsc movies and seems to happen during the transcoding. It is mostly with TMPGENC. If I use rempeg there are no sync issues. Unfortunitly I've never tried it with CCE because the cost is prohibitive. There are many threads about the issue but there never seems to be a solid resolution. The biggest problem is that the audio starts out OK but then gradually go's out of sync. I've herd that its mostly in the 3:2 pulldown. A resolution in one thread was to encoded without 3:2 pulldown (leave it at non-interlaced) and do the pulldown seperatly with pulldown.exe which I've tried and I still have audio sync problems. I've also herd that you could get TMPGenc to read the GOP log (CLLF)file that rempeg creates and follow that instead of the d2v but it was never explained how to do it.

Funny enough tho when I did the exact same procedure on a win98 machine it came out fine. As soon as I upgraded to win2000 to utilize maestro is when all this started.

I use dvd decryptor, dvd2avi ,TMPGenc or rempeg then put it all back together with dvd maestro. I use infoedit when I just need to strip out enough to get the movie on a dvr-5 without compressing.

[dannyv]

Originally posted by toolman2k
this is drivin me nuts!

i got the preivew working.

but i cant get the sync to work.....ive been shifting around for an hour now.....no exact match yet!


I'm courious about somthing.

Try this,

Get the start of the movie in exact sync by sliding the audio forward or backward (You may have to use delay corrector to cut out more audio frames). Once you get it in sync slide the movie position marker to near the end of the movie and see if its out of sync. If it is you have the same problem I have (Read the post above).

Try it and get back to me.

[toolman2k]

ok i will try, but like i said .. icant get it to sync!!! ive been trying that for over an hour now!

[dannyv]

Originally posted by toolman2k
ok i will try, but like i said .. icant get it to sync!!! ive been trying that for over an hour now!

How far out of sync is it e.g. 1 sec .25 sec half a sec etc?

[toolman2k]

Originally posted by dannyv
How far out of sync is it e.g. 1 sec .25 sec half a sec etc?

well its very close...but no cigar :) i cant get it to sync...no matter what i shift back or forth...sounds crazy huh, i know, im quite good at hearing sync....but i cant get it to sync...im stupid i guess...thats why i want to do it by math, by dvd2avi

[dannyv]

Originally posted by toolman2k
well its very close...but no cigar :) i cant get it to sync...no matter what i shift back or forth...sounds crazy huh, i know, im quite good at hearing sync....but i cant get it to sync...im stupid i guess...thats why i want to do it by math, by dvd2avi

Thats weird,

You are shifting the audio on the timeline in maestro correct?
Did you try shifting it like 5 seconds to here if that made a difference (exagerating it). and are you zooming in on the timeline to see how muching your adjusting the delay?
Also are you playing it back in maestro's preview mode or compiling it and playing it back in a player e.g. powerdvd?

What we are trying to accomplish is to see if when you get the movie in sync in the beginning if it goes out of sync at the end. If this is the case then the procedures we are trying will not work.

[toolman2k]

Originally posted by dannyv
Thats weird,

You are shifting the audio on the timeline in maestro correct?
Did you try shifting it like 5 seconds to here if that made a difference (exagerating it). and are you zooming in on the timeline to see how muching your adjusting the delay?
Also are you playing it back in maestro's preview mode or compiling it and playing it back in a player e.g. powerdvd?

What we are trying to accomplish is to see if when you get the movie in sync in the beginning if it goes out of sync at the end. If this is the case then the procedures we are trying will not work.


yes.i zoomed in all the way.the weird thing is....it doesnt say where it is exactly....you just have to sorta guess.i did try to shift it like way too much, to see whether its ahead or behind.im playing it back in preview mode......

btw im only doing PAL movies....i thought that problem only accured on NTSC ?

[dannyv]

Originally posted by toolman2k
yes.i zoomed in all the way.the weird thing is....it doesnt say where it is exactly....you just have to sorta guess.i did try to shift it like way too much, to see whether its ahead or behind.im playing it back in preview mode......

Did you hear any difference when you exagerated the shift? Also if you zoom all the way in the time line should change from time to frames e.g. 10frames/sec etc. At that point each hash mark represent 2 frames. Is this happening?

You should be able to calculate how much your moving it using 1 frame = 32ms, 4 frames =124ms etc.

Now if your sync is -124 you need to move back 4 frames if your +124ms you need to move forward 4 frames.

[toolman2k]

Originally posted by dannyv
Did you hear any difference when you exagerated the shift? Also if you zoom all the way in the time line should change from time to frames e.g. 10frames/sec etc. At that point each hash mark represent 2 frames. Is this happening?

You should be able to calculate how much your moving it using 1 frame = 32ms, 4 frames =124ms etc.

Now if your sync is -124 you need to move back 4 frames if your +124ms you need to move forward 4 frames.

yeah thats correct.i noticed that also. each tiny shift is like 2 frames.

but how can 1 frame be 32ms? is that with pal movies too? anyway, if dvd2avi says delay is -80ms. i cant move it back like that......so i have to cut it with ac3correct.if i do so, then dvd2avi still reports -80ms delay on the compiled vobs ?!

[dannyv]

Originally posted by toolman2k
yeah thats correct.i noticed that also. each tiny shift is like 2 frames.

but how can 1 frame be 32ms? is that with pal movies too? anyway, if dvd2avi says delay is -80ms. i cant move it back like that......so i have to cut it with ac3correct.if i do so, then dvd2avi still reports -80ms delay on the compiled vobs ?!

Disregard what dvd2avi says. If you need to move the audio backwards use ac3 corrector and chop off enough frames until it allows you to move the audio back enough to get it in sync. if you chop -120ms and its not enough chop another -120ms off. If you chopped off to much you can always move it forward on the time line and you wind up loosing at most a half second of audio which is most likly unaudable.

[toolman2k]

Originally posted by dannyv
Disregard what dvd2avi says. If you need to move the audio backwards use ac3 corrector and chop off enough frames until it allows you to move the audio back enough to get it in sync. if you chop -120ms and its not enough chop another -120ms off. If you chopped off to much you can always move it forward on the time line and you wind up loosing at most a half second of audio which is most likly unaudable.


ok im getting frustrated now. i have cut 4,5, and 6 frames off...but i cant get it sync anyway.i hate this crap meastro.ive been trying for long time now....on different parts of the movie, but i cant get it to sync.....well forget it today.im off to bed.more tomorrow.....thanks so far.

[Matthew]

My post here may help.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=20433

It's a mathematical method like you wanted, as well.

Only problem I had was recently, the last half of a title I had ripped had a delay of -231 ms. I chopped it so the delay became +25. But the AC3 had a -80ms time stamp in it, even after this chopping. So I just dragged it 2 more frames to the right in Maestro, than if the time stamp wasn't there.

[toolman2k]

hi all, ive tried scenarist...and i must say that it is much more precise than meastro.i can easily shift audio forward per frame, also stretch and cut it.i can let the video start later (per gop)....and the audio goes with it....BUT the fun thing is i can change the offset....so by varying the offset on audio on frame basis, while video has been moved forward...i can also correct positive delays.

however, i still cant get it to sync properly....whenever i thought i had it sync.....i tried another part of movie and it wasnt sync anymore....really weird.seems like i can keep changing forever...but its never always sync....

anyway im sticking with scenarist now, since i can simply put in numbers to position both audio and video very precicly.

i will try tomorrow again and post my results.

[KinchTheKnifeblade]

After a lot of messing about doing synchronisation (particularly with WB titles) I have started using free software called dvd2dvdr (it's German - there are threads on it here)
There are 2 primary benefits
1. It is a piece of software which automates the the preparation process all the way up to and including CCE encoding. When it is finished all you need to do is reauthor

2. It has resolved all synchronisation difficulties for me to date. I have gone back and tested films such as Ocean's 11 which caused me initial problems before and it has done all the work for me (including removing the intial WB logo)

I absolutely recommend that you try this software - less time in front of the machine and more chance of sucess 1st time

Kinch

[dannyv]

I gave up on using rempeg and tmpgenc and now am using cce to encode and my sync problems are gone. It also encodes in half the time of tmpgenc and the quality is much better.