I have $6k for an editing pc, help me with the hardware

[Crucio]

I was wondering if some of the more professional videographers (or rich hobbyists) could help me out with a video editing pc. I need it for a real estate business and film school. I have $10k total, but I'm spending around $3500 on the camera ( AGDVX100 )
So I thought $6k was a reasonable budget for an editing system.

I would have liked to have gotten a turn key system, but after looking at some made by Canopus and pinnaclesys, it seemed like I could build one cheaper. I mean, the targa3000 in pinnacle's liquidblue is $6000 alone lol.

1. I need a DVD+rw writer, I have no idea which is best, but the DVD+r will be going to a duplication company. So it must be good enough to create a master DVD+r. So, if someone knows of the best, please hook me up with the name :)

2. I need a processor. I really wanted to go with dual xeon 2.8 GHz, but I'm not sure even $6k will suffice for a system like that. So maybe just a 3.06 will be ok?

3. I need a video card good enough that will render things I make in lightwave fast and the transitions in premiere. I really have no idea. My friend recommended the nVidia Quadro4 900XGL. To me it seems very expensive, so maybe someone can recommend something a little less professional, but still better than say the radeon9700pro. Maybe the new card that’s coming out from nVidia? Or maybe the parhelia 512, is that a good card? I like the things I read about being able to output to 2 monitors and a TV, that could be helpful.

4. I will need some hard drives. I’m pretty sure 7200 drives will suffice since its multistream dv video and single stream uncompressed. Maybe not though. Should I use raid 0 on the 7200rpm drives? What size should I get? I was thinking 1 40 for system and 2 120s for video then 1 80 for games/other programs

5. Xp pro or 2000 pro. I have no clue.

6. Memory, what kind and how much. I was thinking about a gig of dualchannel ddr223, but maybe you pros have better recommendations :)

7. Motherboard. Which is good for the things I have described? Apg 8x would be nice, along with the 3.06 HT support or dual 2.8s xeons. Don’t really know what else to look for in it. Correct memory I Guess.

8. My video/capture card. I think that the best I have seen so far is the targa3000. But that is much MUCH too expensive, so my second choice has to be the DvStorm2 plus. Is this a good card? Is there one better that will fit my budget?

9. Case, I think a lanli will be quite nice. Do I need more than 400w?

10. Monitors. I would like to have dual-monitors. I have heard good and bad things about lcds, but really I’m in the dark about which is best. Are they sharper and easier to see? Are they also more expensive? If I can fit them in my budget I will, otherwise it’ll be 18-20 in viewable crts. The bigger the better for me concerning both crts and lcds viewable screen.

11. Where is the best place to buy this stuff? I couldn’t find the dvstorm at googlegear, so I have no idea

12. Of course I will also be encoding to Divx, so if there’s anything that will enhance that, then please tell me.

13. Is there a "13" I’m pretty sure I stated all of my questions, but please, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, if I’m missing anything, please tell me. It would suck to have a computer without something important lol.

Anyways, like I said, all of this somehow needs to fit under the $6k budget. Help me if you are a skilled videographer, or a hobbyist with some extra time. Thank you so much for your time and help.

)--Crucio--(

[alexnoe]

1. I need a DVD+rw writer, I have no idea which is best, but the DVD+r will be going to a duplication company. So it must be good enough to create a master DVD+r. So, if someone knows of the best, please hook me up with the nameThis statement doesn't make any sense, unless you have never heard of dvd-r(w) before.

A hyperthreading P4 3,06 should suffice, but note that you need software that uses dual CPU.

Hard discs:
I'd use WD 2000 JB discs. Don't use Raid-0. You are obviously rich: Use Raid-5.

Windows 2000 pro. XP doesn't have any advantage.

Dual channel memory? Are these boards available for single-CPU? Asus has one on their homepage, but I've not seen them in any shop...

AGP 8x has no advantage over AGP 4x.
Dual xeon 2,8 would be about $2000 for CPUs only, another $500-$1000 for the Mobo. These boards require dual registered ECC DDR-RAM.

[TCCK]

Windows 2000 Pro does not support hyperthreading properly use Windows XP as SP1 supports Hyper Threading properly and you will get 20-30% better preformance over Win2K.

Trust me I test this for a living!

DVD +R the brand new Sony 500DRU (I think tha tis the model) is the current best DVD writer out there.

As for drives I would suggest getting a SCSI raid card by someone like LSI and SCSI drives for DATA redundancy and better performance. I prefer Seagate drives and actually sell them to all my customers.

Video cards are such a personal choice as so many people are so picky about thier video cards. For personal use I use the ATI 9700 card (All in Wonder 128MB DDR RAM)but for business customers that do graphics for a living they all seem to choose something diff. from the last guy.

Brand new MoBo from ASUS kicks butt P4G8x

http://www.asus.com/products/mb/socket478/p4g8x-d/overview.htm

It supports 2 GB of DDR 333 RAM and RAM is cheap these days.

And with the price of Gigabit copper switches coming WAY down please go gigabit if you have any other systems in house you are throwing large video files around to.

If you want some more personal configuration info or info on having a custom system built please PM me.

[alexnoe]

Windows 2000 Pro does not support hyperthreading properly use Windows XP as SP1 supports Hyper Threading properly and you will get 20-30% better preformance over Win2K.Must be a bug :scared: Hopefully M$ is going to fix that.

About SCSI-Raid: Depending on the required capacity, it might be not possible for $6000...

[TCCK]

I could build that system easily for $6000 with 2-73Gb SCSI U160 drives and a U160 SCSI raid controller.

NO PROBLEM!

[Crucio]

like i said, im not rich, but i will be able to write a portion of this off since it will be for a business :)

This statement doesn't make any sense, unless you have never heard of dvd-r(w) before.

uh, sorry, i did spell check in MSwordXP. It must have changed it, Yes i did mean dvd+r(w). I think, I mean, "-" is older than "+" right?

thanx again.

TCCK i will probably PM u on some config stuff. I can build a normal comp from scratch, but im a newb at this workstation/server stuff

[Crucio]

I cant find the model Sony 500DRU. Is it mispelled?

[TCCK]

Sorry it is:

DRU-500A

It has the best support for the most formats and it is the fastest out there.

[alexnoe]

Yes i did mean dvd+r(w)That's exactly what I don't understand, unless you are rich and want to pay for dvd+ media, which is newer, but doesn't have any advantage over dvd-, especially not if you want to burn masters for mass production.

[TCCK]

Originally posted by alexnoe
That's exactly what I don't understand, unless you are rich and want to pay for dvd+ media, which is newer, but doesn't have any advantage over dvd-, especially not if you want to burn masters for mass production.

DVD-r (w is going away. It is the beat versus VHS fight again and +R is better, has more support and in the long run will be cheaper.

I test this stuff and know about the future of it way before the general public does.

If you buy a -r writer today you will be very disappointed 1 year from now guaranteed!!!!

Yes +r is more expensive right now but just wait for 3 months and -r will get harder to find the drives and then the media will start to go up.

[alexnoe]

DVD+R(W) is better
You're spreading the same disinformation as dvdplusrw.org.

There is only one advantage of DVD+RW at all, and this single one is not relevant for creating master discs (i'm speaking of CAV for better seek times for packet writing).

<sarcasm> Of course is DVD+ better. It's better because dvdplusrw claims that. It is better because it is more compatible than Vivastar DVD-R crap media. It is better because it only allows packet writing. It is better because DVD+RW media cannot be erased (only overwritten, but not erases in the sense of DVD-RW or CD-RW). That some players require discs to be full-erased once in a while, especially with non-high-quality-media, to recognise it doesn't matter of course.
</sarcasm>

<sarcasm> That DVD-R(W) is going away is obvious of course. The DVR-A05 does not exist, neither is Mitsubishi or Maxell going to release 4x DVD-R media soon (yes, very expensive, but 4x dvd+r media won't be cheaper either). And DVD-MRW isn't planned either.
</sarcasm>

About the "support" for DVD+: Yes, DVD+ has more support. But this is about marketing, not about features or technology.

If you get such technology before it goes public, then you must be a involved in either it's developement or in beta-tests.
This automatically makes your "opinion" worthless: It would be as silly as a review of a CDVD writer, written by the manufacturer itself.

You can fool many people certainly, but not me. You are welcome to come up with advantages of DVD+ over DVD-, but saying "it is better because it is better" shows that you don't know anything about either format.

[TCCK]

I test everything and have nothing to do with any of the manufacturers. Even DOOM9 can tell you that as he knows where I work.

Trust me your DVD-R will be gone in 1-2 years and DVD+R will still be around.

THe best of all the formats is DVD RAM as it does not crap out if you bump the computer hard, it can re-find where it was and start re-writing but not +R or -R, those ones you throw out the disc and start over.

We will talk again in a year or a bit more and I will not gloat, I will just tell you about the next path of technology to follow so you do not buy technology that dies.

Lets get back to helping Crucio with his computer choices.

[alexnoe]

Ah...now you get back a bit nearer to reality! :) At least you know that your 3-month-statement was propaganda :scared:

I don't care at all, neither does my crystal sphere tell me :sly: , what will be in 2 years.

All I know is that in 2 years, I certainly won't have a 2x speed writer any longer :angry: , and whatever format is more common then (may that be due to techincal superiority or due to propaganda) will be the one I'm going with (or a combo drive). :D

Statements such as "it will be obsolete in 2 years" are always true for PC components! Maybe you haven't noticed that so far :sly:
I will just tell you about the next path of technology to follow
<sarcasm>Of course, your tests/experiences show which technology to follow. It is impossible that you do not see possible flaws/bugs.
</sarcasm>

[Crucio]

Ill just get the DRU-500A, it supports both -r and +r which is good for the future, no matter which format "wins"

k?

[alexnoe]

Unless another company comes up with more formats :D

[Crucio]

Heres an update of the componets i am considering:

1. The DRU-500A, it supports both -r and +r and is fast.

2. Processor. I still need to add some things up, so i dont know if ill have enough money for dual xeon, but if i do, then ill get them, if not i will get the 3.06. Also, what about athlon mps? And, what makes a xeon so freakin expensive??? Is it higher cache? Am i better off just getting the 3.06?

3. The video card im going to get may be the radeon 9700 pro. That is the best card availible right now right? Also, it supports 2 monitors which is good. Although if there is a newer nvidia card that supports dual monitors, someone tell me please. Or maybe the parhelia 512. Also, what about CCE, dont they make hardware too?

4. Still not sure about drives. I cant find seagate u160 drives anywhere. Am i supposed to run windows on a scsi too? or should windows be on a 7200rpm and then have 2 capture/playback scsi drives and another 7200rpm for programs, ie, 2 7200 for boot and programs, 2 scsi for capture/playback raid?
If the 2 u160 seagates arnt availible, i guess i would get, 2 Maxtor Atlas(TM) 10K III KW073J8 73.4GB 80pin U160-SCSI 10,000RPM Hard Drives. Unless 10,000 rpm isnt enough... Also, whats the difference between u-320 and u-160?

5. XP pro

6. 1 gig of dualchannel ddr333. Maybe 1.5 or 2 depending on funds.

7. The MoBo - P4G8X Deluxe if i get the 3.06

8. Still not sure if i should get the DvStorm2 plus, the DVRex-RT Professional, or the Matrox RT.X100. Btw, the matrox RT x100 is the best card matrox makes right? i saw the RT2500, but the RTx100 seemed better. Ofcourse theres Digisuite too. Ugh, so many choices. I remember Scuba said something about a good card. I dont remember if it was a real time editor though.

9. Again, a lan li or a modified chieftech. Where do they sell lan lis?

10. Im going to get 2-3 of the 152T Silver. I cant find a better lcd that the 152T. Also, I was going to get a 17in, but all the 17in resolutions are 1280x1024. WTF! Thats not 4:3! That means im going to have letterboxing on a 640x480 video. I dont understand why the resolution cant be 1280x960 :-/ Well if the matrox parhelia512 is good enough, then 3 15in lcds will still be very cool. Also the 152T is only like $388!

11. Sound Card. I want the Creative Labs Audigy 2. I also want some good speakers. Any reccomendations for good speakers?

12. Best place to buy?

I think thats all, thanx

[Crucio]

Crap, this is bad, it seems a lot of places are out of the things I need. :( I HAVE to have it ordered by wednesday at the latest. Do you guys know of good online computer places? I cant find the 3.06 at www.googlegear.com!

[TCCK]

1. Wise choice as you can take advantage of cheap media now but go with the better that will be cheaper later.

2. The biggests reasons XEON's are expensive are the cache and the fact that the 2 CPU's can work together.

3. Radeon 9700 Pro, awesome card!!

4. If you can afford it go all SCSI as it is better performance and reliability. SCSI U160 has a max transfer rate of 160Mb/sec where as U320 is the new standard and has a max transfer rate of 320Mb/sec but are pricy right now as they are new!
My wholesale supplier is out of Seagate's too so I have Hitachi's right now.
5. XP is great (I am ready from the flaming from the Unix/Linux camp!)

6. You can always add more memory later so do 1 Gb now and leave some $ for some other things. 1GB should give awesome performance now though.

7. Good motherboard. This is what I am answering this post on. It rocks!


10. I have seen some 17" and 19 " with better than 1280 X 1024 but they are big $$!

11. BOSE Computer systems but are pricy.

12. I am in Canada so I am not much help there if you are in USA but I do ship anywhere in the world. Plus US $ go a long way here.

[alexnoe]

The max transfer rate of SCSI is not relevant but marketing.

What is relevant is that the fastest available SCSI HDDs (Seagate 15k rpm and the such) have a seek time of 1/2 of what a WD JB IDE drive can do.
*This* is what can make SCSI systems fast.

If you initiate 2 transfers on the same IDE drives, not the throughput is the problem, but the seek times of IDE drives.

[Crucio]

thanx a lot TCCK

and alexnoe I know what u mean, its sortof like ATA133 drives. They dont do anything special, yet they have 133 instead of 100 on them lol

TCCK, I live in Michigan, would the shipping be very bad if i ordered from Canada? I mean, im pretty close.

Also, Alexnoe, are you saying i should get 15,000 rpm instead of 10,000?

One more thing. Can the radeon 9700pro do dual DVI (dual LCD) ?

[alexnoe]

Crucio: If it is compatible to your budget ;) , then a 15000 rpm disc (or 4-5 as a Raid-5 :D ) is the better choice.

[Crucio]

heh, thats a lot of rpm, and about twice the price too

[TCCK]

No the shipping is not that expensive and for bi8gger orders i drivew across the border and ship it from the US so as to avoid customs slow downs.

15K drives are great but again it comes down to your budget as they are still a premium. 73Gb 10K U160 drive is about $150-$200 cheaper than a 73Gb 15K U160 drive and when you get into U320, well the $6K would get swallowed up quickly there if you have 3 or 4 drives.

No the 9700 supports one DVI and one standard 15 pin monitor out.

see picture below:

http://mirror.ati.com/designpartners/media/images/r9700bd-sml.jpg

[Crucio]

10k it is then :)

[dan]

I'm late, but here goes...

If you get the Radeon 9700 pro, you won't see any performance gain in Premiere. To get the performance gain, you need to get an editing card [such as the Matrox RT2500], but editing cards cost an arm and a leg, even for the "cheap ones." [The Matrox RT.X10 is considered cheap, with an MSRP of $600]. With a "regular" video card, you're looking at Premiere throwing everything to the CPU, the same as it would with a riva TNT from years ago. If you read about the 9700 Pro's "programmable pixel shaders", they are indeed there, but Premiere isn't programmed to take advantage of that. You'd need a pricier card to get any performance benefit in Premiere. [This same goes for nvidia's line, and the Parhelia as well.] But, for the time being, the 9700 Pro is where it's at in terms of gaming. I don't mean to start heat within this thread, but by choosing an ATI Radeon 8500 or 9000, you could save $175 [probably more] and still maintain the functionality of multiple displays. That $175 could easily improve harddrive capacity or add more RAM [which would contribute more to the system's performance]. Of course, the 9700, for video cards is more future-proof than anything at the moment, but of course, the "future", in video card terms, is nearer than almost any other component.

I don't think you can go wrong with the Audigy2...for speakers, I'd recommend the Klipsch ProMedia. If you will watch DVDs or play games on this computer, go for the 5.1 or 4.1 [4.1 will save you another $100+ vs. the 5.1]. If you won't be doing surround sound encoding with your video projects, the 2.1's would be fine [and save more money to be put into other components].

CCE makes a hardware MPEG2 encoder; I'm not sure how much it costs, but it's in the thousands. I think that might affect your budget a bit.

For MPEG2 encoding, software encoders would probably be fine [considering the processing power involved] and cheaper. TMPGenc and CCE are fine software encoders, with CCE being pricier than TMPGenc by a fair amount.

Maybe this isn't what you were looking for in your thread, but buying an alternate lens for your camera could make more of a difference with your projects than a 3.06 vs. dual Xeons. I'd recommend getting both a telephoto [2x] and a wide angle [.7x should be fine], as these purchases can help the quality of the final project more than computer hardware could. A different microphone will also help to supplement the onboard. Yeah, yeah, this is the 'PC Hardware' forum, but the chance of Premiere being able to pick out the wind from an audio track recorded outside because of a faster processor or RAID array is slim to none. Oh yeah, don't forget to include the cost of software...that can add-up really quickly.

Good luck with your purchase,
Dan

[Crucio]

thanx, i cant use radeon because it only supports dual crt monitors though. Also, in my post, #8, I said,

8. Still not sure if i should get the DvStorm2 plus, the DVRex-RT Professional, or the Matrox RT.X100. Btw, the matrox RT x100 is the best card matrox makes right? i saw the RT2500, but the RTx100 seemed better. Ofcourse theres Digisuite too. Ugh, so many choices. I remember Scuba said something about a good card. I dont remember if it was a real time editor though.

well whatevr. Thanx everyone for the help.


also, the reason i needed dual xeon was for the card, it needs a 64bit PCI slot

[dan]

Sorry for that, I didn't look at your original post closely enough, and the posts following the first dealt with issues other than the editing card... my fault.

I think you said you had to put the order in by Wednesday [today], I can't help but wonder what the final machine you put together was made up of. If you don't mind me asking, what sort of damage did you do with the $6000? I think a lot of us in these forums wish we had the means to put together a high-end editing/encoding computer, so I'm curious about how it all ended up for you.

Thanks,
Dan

[Crucio]

Alright.

I decided to go with this card dv rex rt (http://www.canopus.com/us/products/dvrex-rt_professional/pt_dvrex-rt_professional.asp)

then im using this videocard, although it hasnt been put in yet, just as long as i have the actuall computer, i can get the 40% tax break, so ill order this maybe saturday.
quadro 4 980 xgl (http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?PAGE=quadro4xgl)

does anyone know when the new fx cards from nvidia are coming out? thats mostly the reason ive held off from getting a 3d card yet.

then i got 4 scsi harddrives. 2 15k 18gig seagate (u160) 2 73gb 15k u160

im running raid 0 on the 2 73, then the 1st 18gig is windows and the other is video programs.

then i have a normal 7200 120gig hd for storage and games and whatever.

I still havent bought the processor or the memmory because i cant find anywhere that has the 3.06ghz in stock. I was going to get dual athlon mps, but they didnt seem like they would make that much of a difference. Ofcourse, i still might get them. I also wanted dual xeon, but they have problems with some programs, so no point. Also, i got a card that uses 2 32bit pci bus cards instead of a 64bit one.

The case is a full server tower.

I havent bought the monitors yet.

As u can see, im still deciding on some componets, but once i get it completely together, i will do some benchmarks.

btw, anyone know when faster athlon mps are coming out? and if theyre going to use the same chipset as the ones availible right now? thanx

[Bigbucks1959]

Don't I remember this same speech about

SONY BETAMAX


LOL

I will stick with my DVD-R

I get media for 87 cents a piece and they burn flawlessly.

PK


Originally posted by TCCK
DVD-r (w is going away. It is the beat versus VHS fight again and +R is better, has more support and in the long run will be cheaper.

I test this stuff and know about the future of it way before the general public does.

If you buy a -r writer today you will be very disappointed 1 year from now guaranteed!!!!

Yes +r is more expensive right now but just wait for 3 months and -r will get harder to find the drives and then the media will start to go up. SONY BETAMAX

[theReal]

9. Again, a lan li or a modified chieftech. Where do they sell lan lis?

If it isn't for looks and coolness only, I wouldn't buy a Lian-Li case. They are very expensive and the extra cooling you get from an aluminum case isn't really worth it. I'd say a standard Chieftec is not only cheaper but also better for your purpose - it's heavy and absorbs vibrations very well (and it also looks good, imo).
As for the PSU, I don't think you'd need more than 400W, just make sure it is good quality (like Antec True Power). Many PSUs that are labelled "400W" are actually worse than a real good 300W quality PSU.

[Virus Suriv]

Well i can tell you that you might like to look at the yeong yang cube case.
cause you are planing to buy some really fast disk 10k rpm generates lots of heat.
as in the cube case the mobo its seperate from the HDD and the CD\DCD roms
this will really clear you out some heat more than a alumini case could do.

And you are like forgeting the heat problem all those components will generate keep it in mind
you wont be happy seeing it burn
so remember good heatsinks
or make room for a water

V!rus Sur!v

[mikecito]

This thread is old - but for the sake of searches - Don't use RAID 5 unless you REQUIRE a live redundancy. Raid 5 requires calculation of the parity bit which slows down transfers. Striping is much faster - striping has always outperformed raid 5.

Also - remember quantity of drives is better than HD size. If you have to choose between 4 20's or 2 40's, go for 4 20's. It will outperform if they are on a nice SCSI raid controller and setup with striping correctly.

Just remember with striping that another computer with a LARGE amount of space is good for backing up important data. Or DLT, or whatever.

[Crucio]

haha, very old :)

Btw, the computer is working great if anyone cares.

Its a speed demon in after effects and premiere.

Thanx to all who helped :-D

[Xayd]

So you ended up with the 15k RPM drives? I'm envious, can only afford 10k :)

FYI for anyone else who might read this that's considering going SCSI, you need a 64 bit PCI slot to get U320, the bandwidth limitation on the 32 bit PCI bus is ~150mb/sec.

So, get a server motherboard or save some cash and just get a U160 card instead ;).

[Crucio]

no, im sorry, i did end up going with 10k :) They work great though.