ReMPEG2 vs. TMPGEnc. Test on NTSC Romeo Must Die

[john@sympatico.ca]

Authors note (02/12/18):

Synopsys of this thread:

Following the Doom9 IfoEdit guides, I could not get an m2v file created with TMPGEnc to properly remux into the original VOBs with IfoEdit (m2v created with ReMPEG was ok), mostly had audio synch problems and occational jerkyness with the video (see thread for complete details).

Note: This apparently does not happen with PAL titles, I am using NTSC.

I was able to use Maestro to author the m2v and an ac3 properly.

As well I found that if I use IfoEdit to Author (Not the Remux option in VOB Extras), I was able to get good results. Using the same set of files I was able to repetedly make bad VOBs with the Remux option and good VOBs with the Authoring function (which appears to be much faster than Remux).

My recomendations, if you are following the Doom9 guides for IfoEdit with TMPGEnc (Basic Guide or Multiangle DVDs and TMPG re-encoding), replace the remux procedure (Add the new video stream) with the IfoEdit Authoring function. You will need to get the ac3 with DVD2AVI (When creating the d2v project).

__________________________
The original post follows:



I finaly did my first sucessful transcoding (its burning as I
write).

I tried various different approaches with TMPGEnc (because its supposed to be better than ReMPEG), and when I finaly got the final DVD image size just under 4.7GB, the last few chapters were messed up. From ch. 30 and on there were audio synch problems, starting with choppy intermittent audio gaps (like a cooked mp3, but not quite) and then it worked properly but the audio was laging by about 1 sec. Up to that point it was perfect.

I ran through the TMPGEnc process a few more times, but allways came out with the same problem, so I tried with ReMPEG and it worked properly.

So its good that I have 2 ways to do this, but I'd like to use TMPGEnc over ReMPEG, since its supposed to be better, and I will likely allways try it first, and if that fails try ReMPEG.

I could save myself a lot of time though if I knew what the problem was in the first place and how to identify it before choosing which transcoding method to use.

Is this a common problem with TMPGEnc? (I'll admit I might have messed up, its a bit more fexible than ReMPEG).

Any comments appreciated.


Oh yah, here is what I did in breif:
1. DVD Decryptor
2. IfoEdit (strip all but 1 video and 1 audio stream + TmpgTemplate.txt)
3. DVD2AVI (create d2v project)
4. Create m2v with either TMPGEnc or ReMPEG2
5. IfoEdit (Re-mux new vobs)
Test + make image + burn

Win XP, PIII 700, gobs of ram, 20 GB NTFS.

[john@sympatico.ca]

Follow-up: I tried using TMPGEnc again this time for a Korean movie (JSA - very good movie BTW), technically all went well, I was able to create a set of VOBs that are just under 4 700 000 000 bytes. However the audio and video streams get out of synch near the middle to end, and the video seems to have a bit of jerkiness, subtle at first and then pronounced, continuous, freeze frames from the middle to end.

I figure there must be something I'm doing wrong but I'm following the guides to the letter.

Is this behavior symptomatic of a common mistake?
:confused:
I'm going to redo it with ReMPEG, I suspect this will work well.:stupid: haha

[Endor]

I have yet to get a TMPG or CCE encoded movie to play properly when using an IFOEdit remux. I get the same thing you do; broken video followed by out-of-sync audio. ReMPEG2 just works better in this situation, but the quality is not all that great (IMHO).

However, what has given me luck (at least on the last 5 or so movies I've backed up) is to use CCE and re-author the movie with DVDMaestro. That works perfectly either with CCE or TMPGenc (tried both) and gives the best quality, but is a little added work.

I've found that many movies seem to barely miss DVD-R mark and just need a 90% or so transcode. ReMPEG2 seems to look fine when compressing in the 4000 kbps range... once you drop below that, the quality drops quite a bit. CCE or TMPG surely seems better at lower bitrates.

[john@sympatico.ca]

The second test (with JSA) had the same results as Romeo Must Die. Fist attmept at transcoding with TMPGEnc did not remux well. Second attempt with ReMPEG worked well.

Could this be a difference between the TMPGEnc trial version and the Pro version?
From TMPGEnc website:
Because of MPEG-2 licensing matter, we are not able to provide unlimited MPEG-2 encoding function for free, thus, TMPGEnc (which you can download from this website) has limited MPEG-2 encoding function because it is free.
Does anyone know what "limited MPEG-2 encoding function" means?


Endor:

I had a look at the procedures involved for the DVDMaestro method. At this time it looks like a bit more than I want to invest for what I need, but I might try when I have more time + a better system. How long does it take you to do the whole process (and on what sort of processing power)?

[JF Sebastian]

john
As per Endor's post I use Maestro to author my projects. Once you get going with it there's not much added time. Takes about 25 mins to mux files to new VIDEO_TS folder when you set it running, and that's on a v.slow PC (I'm not going to tell you how slow - it's embarassing :D )

Just imagine how long it takes me to do the transcoding.....!!

After transcoding (BTW I only use TMPG) and authoring in Maestro, I then use imgtools to make an image and Decrypter to burn. Job done.

JF

[Endor]

Does anyone know what "limited MPEG-2 encoding function" means?

MPEG2 encoding is fully operatinal for 30 days, then stops working. AFAIK, that's all they mean by this.

I had a look at the procedures involved for the DVDMaestro method. At this time it looks like a bit more than I want to invest for what I need, but I might try when I have more time + a better system. How long does it take you to do the whole process (and on what sort of processing power)?

I'm using an Athlon 1800+ with DDR333 memory and an 120GB 8MB cache drive (Western Digital). For a 2 hour movie:

- 20 mins or so to rip with DVDdecryptor(Liteon 16X DVD-ROM), I usually rip the whole thing and use IFOEdit to split instead
- 10 mins to split the video/sound I want
- 5 mins for DVD2AVI to do its thing
- ~5 hours to reencode with CCE (3 pass VBR)
- 5 mins to pull the M2V and AC3 stream into DVDMaestro
- 10-15 mins for DVDMaestro to create the new DVD
- 25 mins to burn the DVD-R (Pioneer DVR-A04, 2x discs)

So from start to finish, I guess about 7 hours. I usually let the CCE encode go overnight, so my work (actually sitting there) is usually an hour or so total.

As long as you're doing just the movie (no menus or subtitles), it's really easy, adds very little time to the overall project, and shouldn't be too dependent on processor power (the re-encode is the toughy). Plus, it seems to work 100% of the time, unlike using IFOEdit with anything other than a ReMPEG2'ed stream.

[john@sympatico.ca]

TEST 3 (NTSC anime: Akira), I screwed up something on the TMPGEnc settings and got a postcard size distorted (very wide black borders framing the video), it did have the audio and synch problems. Again ReMPEG worked ok (a few artifacts).

For me and a few others there seems to be issues with the TMPGEnc + IfoEdit.

New Question to Forum:
Is there anyone that has had a successful re-mux of a TMPGEnc m2v with IfoEdit prepared VOBs? If so, have there been many / consistently successful?



JF & Endor,

Thanks for the information, this is encouraging, I'll try the DVDMaestro method soon as I can find the sw. :sly: :rolleyes:

[stl]

Yes, once, I transcoded Phantom menace with re-mpg, came out with terrible artifacts in the middle-end of the film.

I then used tmpg and authored in DVDcomplete, came out perfect.

PROBLEM, afterwards, DVDcomplete freezes at menu creation stage, I've been trying to figure out why for a week. Works with other files though weird.

ALSO: tried DVDworkshop, which worked but the audio was totally, totaly out of synch.

I too am looking for a consistent way to use tmpg and re-author instead of using re-mpg and IFOedit. BTW, re-mpg takes 4-5hrs while tmpg takes 1:40-2hrs so there's that issue too.

[Endor]

Is there anyone that has had a successful re-mux of a TMPGEnc m2v with IfoEdit prepared VOBs? If so, have there been many / consistently successful?
Not sure if this directly answers the question above, but I tried authoring VOBs with IFOEdit and CCE & TMPG encoded m2v files but had problems with random video freezing and audio sync during playback.

I've heard grumblings elsewhere that Ifoedit authoring seems to have problems with NTSC streams and 2:3 pulldown so I chalked it up to that. Granted, I did try ifoedit early on in my DVD backup experiments.... now that I know more about these things, I may try using IFOedit authoring again over the next few days and post my results.

[diogo6]

I have yet to get a TMPG or CCE encoded movie to play properly when using an IFOEdit remux. I get the same thing you do; broken video followed by out-of-sync audio.

For some reasons the remux function on the "newer" ifoedit versions don't work. I keep all the versions stored just in case, and each of them is better for than the other ones for a different reason... but anyways, you should stick to version 0.6 for your "remuxing needs"

hope that helped...

[dannyv]

Originally posted by john@sympatico.ca

New Question to Forum:
Is there anyone that has had a successful re-mux of a TMPGEnc m2v with IfoEdit prepared VOBs? If so, have there been many / consistently successful?

[/B]


I have never gotten a good audio/video sync using TMPGEnc and it does not matter if you use infoedit first or just use dvd2avi and skip the infoedit step. I think I'm going to try REMpeg method and I'll report back my results.

[dannyv]

New Question to Forum:
Is there anyone that has had a successful re-mux of a TMPGEnc m2v with IfoEdit prepared VOBs? If so, have there been many / consistently successful?

I have never gotten a good audio/video sync using TMPGEnc and it does not matter if you use infoedit first or just use dvd2avi and skip the infoedit step. I think I'm going to try REMpeg method and I'll report back my results.


Well I tried rempeg and the audio is perfectly in sync but now I have a new problem. When using rempeg on harry potter the image is streched top to bottem. it should be 720x480 (which I did select) but it looks more like 720x600. any ideas? I did shrek which is in 4.3 and that worked fine.

[john@sympatico.ca]

diogo6:

I'm not able to get verison 0.6 from www.ifoedit.com, there is a link for it there but it is currently broken. Can you (or anyone else reading this) help me out?


dannyv:

I've not had that problem with ReMPEG and IfoEdit, maybe you could try it again with the other ReMPEG setting (352x480), and make sure you folow all the steps in the guide. If that does not work you could start a new thread with all the pertinent information.

[bumblebe]

I emailed you 0.6 John.

The problem is the guides are designed for more recent versions, so I'm not sure how to go about to make it work properly. For instance, do you save the ifo's created by this version or do you create new ones with later versions?

PS - I'm currently struggling to back-up Titanic with the Rempeg method!

[dannyv]

Originally posted by dannyv
New Question to Forum:
Is there anyone that has had a successful re-mux of a TMPGEnc m2v with IfoEdit prepared VOBs? If so, have there been many / consistently successful?

I have never gotten a good audio/video sync using TMPGEnc and it does not matter if you use infoedit first or just use dvd2avi and skip the infoedit step. I think I'm going to try REMpeg method and I'll report back my results.


Well I tried rempeg and the audio is perfectly in sync but now I have a new problem. When using rempeg on harry potter the image is streched top to bottem. it should be 720x480 (which I did select) but it looks more like 720x600. any ideas? I did shrek which is in 4.3 and that worked fine.

I was able to resolve the streched video problem by selecting 16x9 when authoriing in dvd maestro.

[john@sympatico.ca]

I'm repeating test 3 (AKIRA), TMPGEnc is now transcoding. When finished I will try remuxing with IfoEdit 0.6 (thanks bumblebe :D )

Point of interest: Setting Motion Search Presision from Normal to Highest can increase the Transcode time by a factor of ~3. I just canceled a 74 :scared: hour process. Now on Normal it has an estimate of 25 hours, slow, but better than waiting a week.


EDIT 10/12/02: Messed up the AKIRA Transcode, possibly because of trying IVTC. Am repeating test 1 Romeo must die. Hope this one works well.

[dannyv]

Originally posted by john@sympatico.ca
Point of interest: Setting Motion Search Presision from Normal to Highest can increase the Transcode time by a factor of ~3. I just canceled a 74 :scared: hour process. Now on Normal it has an estimate of 25 hours, slow, but better than waiting a week.

Set it to motion estimate search and it will go much faster and there will be no noticable difference in quality.

[john@sympatico.ca]

Ummm, well no good news. The video is technically well done, no jerkiness or choppiness like other times time, but the audio get out of synch gradualy throughout the film, up to about 2 seconds late at the end.

Next up, I'm gonna try using the method described in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39983), using ifoedit 0.88. Although there is a link for it on the ifoedit website, it is dead. So if anyone has this version I would appreciate it if you could email it to me (user name = email address) :rolleyes: haha I love these little emoti-dudes :D

[john@sympatico.ca]

Well I never did try the propsed method with IfoEdit 0.88 in this other thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39983) mentioned earlier. It seems that this is only an issue for NTSC titles (see other thread for details).

I finally got Maestro, and after a bit of playing around with it I got a nice re mux of the m2v left over from the previous failed attempt, and an ac3 that I generated with DVD2AVI.

Works great and was not hard to run through Maestro. Although the first time I forgot to set the First Play command sequences, haha, I was skipping all the menu stuff and that step got by me. Now its looking good though.

Thanks Endor and JF, what was it?, queen to bishop 6: Check, or in this case: Success:)

[Endor]

John, glad it helped and you had success!

And yes, the First Play setting got me the first time out too... sorry I forgot to give you a heads-up on that one!

[john@sympatico.ca]

I'm glad that I'm now able to use and unserstand Maestro, however I think I solved (found a work around to) my original problem with IfoEdit

I was playing around with IfoEdit and I tried the Authoring function. Worked very well, producing a perfect set of VOBs. I did it a few more times, very easy to use, good results and no problems.

I then took the same files that I Authored and tried the Remux step form the IfoEdit guide (Step 5: Add the new video stream), and it produced a bad set of VOBs, with all the problems describerd earlier. And it took much much longer to remux the VOBs.

So Authoring with either tool seems to be the solution for my situation (single NTSC title, no menu, one audio track).

The only deviation from the guides is that you need to get the audio and subtitle tracks that you require. Effectively this takes little extra time. I get the ac3 from DVD2AVI at the same time as generating the d2v project, as well the audio and the subs can be extracted with VOBEdit.

[Endor]

john,

Are you also importing the chapters? I found that the problems some folks have mentioned with CCE no obeying I frame settings caused problems with chapter points (since they need to be on an I frame) when using IFOedit authoring. The video would play, but when you switched chapters the player would get really cross-threaded (freeze, unsynced audio, etc).

Maestro seems to take care of this by adjusting the chapter points ever so slightly so they fit on an I-frame/GOP.

Also, what version of IFOedit did you use?

[john@sympatico.ca]

Yes I imported the chapters, it was easy to do I created CellTimes.txt with VOBedit, and used that in the IfoEdit Authoring stage. I'm using the latest version 0.95.

I also found that I could remove/create my own chapter points by adding entries to CellTimes.txt. I did it randomly, and it worked well, no stops of synch problems. For example:

Original CellTimes.txt

33507
66387
90805
122974
142239
168569

New CellTimes.txt

1000
33507
40000
66387
75000
90805
122974
130000
142239
168569

It was interesting to see some of the chapters jump to the middle of a word / dialog.

[bumblebe]

Originally posted by john@sympatico.ca
I'm glad that I'm now able to use and unserstand Maestro, however I think I solved (found a work around to) my original problem with IfoEdit

I was playing around with IfoEdit and I tried the Authoring function. Worked very well, producing a perfect set of VOBs. I did it a few more times, very easy to use, good results and no problems.

I then took the same files that I Authored and tried the Remux step form the IfoEdit guide (Step 5: Add the new video stream), and it produced a bad set of VOBs, with all the problems describerd earlier. And it took much much longer to remux the VOBs.

So Authoring with either tool seems to be the solution for my situation (single NTSC title, no menu, one audio track).

The only deviation from the guides is that you need to get the audio and subtitle tracks that you require. Effectively this takes little extra time. I get the ac3 from DVD2AVI at the same time as generating the d2v project, as well the audio and the subs can be extracted with VOBEdit.

Are you saying that the remuxing should be done with Maestro and NOT ifoedit?

[john@sympatico.ca]

No. Either type of Authoring works well. What I am suggesting is to not use the Remux feature in IfoEdit, use the Authoring feature.

(see the first message in this thread, I put a write up of my suggestions there)