The new "mp3" - ogg or mp4 ?

[Stigma]

I must admidt i havent been keepingmyself as updated on the pogress of the work beeing done on the mp4 format, still, what it promises seems incredible. Ogg also blows the old mp3 standard completely away..

Wich format do you think will be the dominant one in half a year - a years time, and most importantly WHY?

-Stigma

[ChristianHJW]

Dont wnat to be the bad nitpicker here :D ... but you are using wrong terms, leading to potential misinterpretation :

MP3 = MPEG 1 layer 3 : audio compression format ( codec )

Ogg : Container Format

MP4 : Container Format


I guess your question should better be like :

Will it be AAC ( MPEG4 audio ) or Vorbis that will replace MP3 as audio compression format of the future ?


Of course, i vote for Vorbis. AAC can only cope with Vorbis at lower bitrates together with SBR, is highly patented while Vorbis is an open standard, and there are no opensource encoders so we cant add an UCI codec API interface to it :D ...

Main advantage of AAC compared to Vorbis is that there is still no proper 5.1 encoding profile for the latter :( .

[bond]

Perhaps it is also interesting to add mcf here

Can someone, who really knows the technical details, plz sum up the main advantages, disadvantages and differences between ogg/ogm, mp4 and mcf?

[Doom9]

for mcf technical specs you best visit mfc.sourceforge.net, and it's obviously also a container, not a format.

Do not forget that when it comes to standalones chances of AAC support are much higher than Vorbis. In fact there are already devices (portable audio players which support AAC besides MP3) that can handle the format.

And in a years time my vote goes for MP3. Why? Because things don't change as quickly. MP3 works and has broad support, both in hardware and in software. Every modern Windows PC comes equipped to play MP3 files and AVI files containing MP3 audio without needing any other software installed.

Chris, you missed FFAC, that's an open source AAC encoder. Here's the URL: http://www.audiocoding.com/faac.php. Quality of the first release seems to be lower than aacenc but the 2nd version is rumoured to be much better.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Doom9 Chris, you missed FFAC, that's an open source AAC encoder. Here's the URL: http://www.audiocoding.com/faac.php. Quality of the first release seems to be lower than aacenc but the 2nd version is rumoured to be much better.

Yes, but i heard on hydrogenaudio.org that Menno, the main developer, has joined the Ahead ( Nero ) MPEG4 team now, following Ivan Dimcovic ( the aacenc dev ) ?? Anybody to confirm this ?

Maybe a prejudice, but wouldnt this mean that development of FAAC would slow down significantly ? Or is there someone in the FAAC team with the same/similar skills as Menno ? Thanks to anybody who does know more than i do and cares to clarify ... rjamorim maybe ? :D ..

EDIT :

Doom9's link seems to be broken. Valid links are :

http://sourceforge.net/projects/faac

and

http://www.audiocoding.com/

And when reading the latter things become much clearer. Seems that the FAAC project will remain opensource, and only commercial apps need a license. Will contact them now ....

[Stigma]

@ Chistian,

Yes you are of course completely right =) I do know the difference, but i actually think the misconseption is more widespread than the actualy knowledge, atleast with the general population and the "hobby" encoders ^_^

I appreciate your input though, and i hope, as you do, that vorbis will pull through with its exelent qual at low bitrates =)

-Stigma

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by Doom9
[B]Do not forget that when it comes to standalones chances of AAC support are much higher than Vorbis. In fact there are already devices (portable audio players which support AAC besides MP3) that can handle the format.

I have never seen a standalone set top play that supports AAC. Any links? I have however seen portables that support AAC and Vorbis.

Originally posted by Doom9
[B]And in a years time my vote goes for MP3. Why? Because things don't change as quickly. MP3 works and has broad support, both in hardware and in software. Every modern Windows PC comes equipped to play MP3 files and AVI files containing MP3 audio without needing any other software installed.

Yes it will likely be well over a decade or so till we see common propper MPEG4 and MP4 support on consumer electronics and standalones. Though I will keep pushing for Vorbis as well. ;)

[Sven Bent]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
Yes, but i heard on hydrogenaudio.org that Menno, the main developer, has joined the Ahead ( Nero ) MPEG4 team now, following Ivan Dimcovic ( the aacenc dev ) ?? Anybody to confirm this ?


Confirmed
You can read Ivan's (the make of psyell aac encoder) posting about it over at www.hydrogenaudio.org

i didn't know about Menno was going to ahead too

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
I have never seen a standalone set top play that supports AAC portable:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27360
Originally posted by Sven Bent
i didn't know about Menno was going to ahead too i believe Menno is working on the ahead's aac decoder.

[rjamorim]

AAC can only cope with Vorbis at lower bitrates together with SBR

Wrong. It's Psytel AACenc that can't cope with vorbis at low bitrates, not the AAC standard.

Problem in Psytel is the same one in Lame: lack of Intensity Stereo.

Yes, but i heard on hydrogenaudio.org that Menno, the main developer, has joined the Ahead ( Nero ) MPEG4 team now, following Ivan Dimcovic ( the aacenc dev ) ?? Anybody to confirm this ?

Nope.

Menno sold Faad2 to Ahead (but the open source development will continue)
And he's working under contract - not as employee - in the SBR decoder implementation and MPEG4 video decoder.

Maybe a prejudice, but wouldnt this mean that development of FAAC would slow down significantly ? Or is there someone in the FAAC team with the same/similar skills as Menno ? Thanks to anybody who does know more than i do and cares to clarify ... rjamorim maybe ?

Menno stopped working on FAAC1 months ago, even before he sold FAAD2 to Ahead. And he plans to, one of these days, start working on FAAC2 - which won't have much higher quality than FAAC1 at start, but will have a cleaner code and will be much more tweakable/tunable than it's predecessor.

Yes it will likely be well over a decade or so till we see common propper MPEG4 and MP4 support on consumer electronics and standalones. Though I will keep pushing for Vorbis as well.

MP4 is already supported in an Archos product. And I heard that Philips plans to add MPEG4 support to their DVD players. (Although it can just be a rumour)

i believe Menno is working on the ahead's aac decoder.

The Ahead AAC decoder is ready, and it's identical to FAAD2.

Menno is now working on SBR decoder, I think (which won't be open, since it's being done under contract).

Regards;

Roberto.

[rjamorim]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
I have never seen a standalone set top play that supports AAC. Any links? I have however seen portables that support AAC and Vorbis.

What portable support vorbis? I never heard of it.

[DSPguru]

heheh.. Roberto.. there's a great signature you've got there :o

i will continue working on it. i promise.

[JohnV]

Originally posted by rjamorim
Nope.

Menno sold Faad2 to Ahead (but the open source development will continue)
And he's working under contract - not as employee - in the SBR decoder implementation and MPEG4 video decoder.
What nope? According to Ivan and Menno himself, he's an Ahead MPEG4 developer working in the team, although he works from his home (he couldn't move to Germany because of his studies are not finished).

Are you sure you are allowed to talk about Menno's SBR implementation for Ahead? Last time I talked to him privately about SBR, he specifically asked not to talk about it in public (November 19th). Also Ivan says it's something they can't comment, meaning you probably shouldn't be spreading the info publically here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=2&t=4420&st=25#entry44862

[rjamorim]

Originally posted by JohnV What nope? According to Ivan and Menno himself, he's an Ahead MPEG4 developer working in the team, although he works from his home (he couldn't move to Germany because of his studies are not finished).


LEVIATHAN: So, now you are an Ahead employee?
M&NO: hmm, not really, they hire my company :-)

(Leviathan is me)


Are you sure you are allowed to talk about Menno's SBR implementation for Ahead? Last time I talked to him privately about SBR, he specifically asked not to talk about it in public (November 19th). Also Ivan says it's something they can't comment, meaning you probably shouldn't be spreading the info publically here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=2&t=4420&st=25#entry44862

Well, according to my ICQ logs, he never asked me to keep privacy on the subject. I'm sorry if that was the idea, but i couldn't guess it, really. Since he made public he would work for Ahead, I guessed SBR dev would be public too.

I can provide you the logs if you want them.

And I can't know Ivan's thoughts on the subject, since I don't read HA anymore (except when someone sends me a link).

[JohnV]

Originally posted by rjamorim
LEVIATHAN: So, now you are an Ahead employee?
M&NO: hmm, not really, they hire my company :-)
Hire his company... to work in the Ahead MPEG4 team... ;)

I can provide you the logs if you want them.
I don't do anything with the logs. It's not my problem if Ahead internal company information goes public before it should.. :D
I pretty much always ask before I talk about things like these publicly...

And I can't know Ivan's thoughts on the subject, since I don't read HA anymore (except when someone sends me a link).I guess that's your loss then.. :p

[rjamorim]

Originally posted by JohnV
I don't do anything with the logs. It's not my problem if Ahead internal company information goes public before it should.. :D
I pretty much always ask before I talk about things like these publicly...

Well, as I said before, he had already made public that he works for Ahead. So, I guessed that what he's working at would be public by now then.

I guess that's your loss then.. :p

Not really. I would be glad to keep track of all of Ivan's ideas, but that would require reading even elitesecurity (in yugoslavian :D)

Anyway, I'm really sorry for that. I'll publicly apologize to Menno somehow.