Compression of Red and Dark Orange

[CruNcher]

@Soulhunter

i think it has todo with more factors like graphic card driver and directx version so i will show you what i use :)

Directx: 9.0b (4.09.0000.0902)
Nvidia: Detonator 45.24
OS: XP

[Soulhunter]

@CruNcher

Ive the same stuff... (DX9b and Detonator 45.xx)

But my OS is WinME so I thought its possible that this only works with WinXP... !?!

When I get a friend's PC with XP in my hands next time, I'll test it...

Bye

[Markust]

i have the same problems with red and orange colors...
Movies like The Shining or 2001: A Space Oddysey are a truble for me.
Stanley Kubrick is a Big fan of the RED colour :P
In 1 CD there´s no way make it look good. I wish have time todo test with some scenes (like "the Bathroom" in the shining).
Any way, i will try some advices from this thread...

Best Regards.

[Soulhunter]

All you wanna know something real interesting... ???

This red-chroma-bug is solved "for me" !!!

Today Ive upgraded my old Nvidia-GF card, to an ATIRadeon one...

And now, all this small blocks in high intense red are gone !!!

Damn !!! Now I can imagine why some PPL dont agreed what I mean when I talked about this bug...
Cause I think only Nvidia users where able to see them... :D :D :D

My comment: F#C$ Nvidia ! Hail to Radeon !!!

PS:
Are the PPL with both cards out there to check this ???
Would be interesting to know if its really a Nvidia related bug !

Bye

[crOOk]

I'm using a Radeon9700Pro with the newest Catalyst driver, Win XP, newest AVS2.5 version, newest ffdshow build and am experiencing the same red pixeliation problem...
Converttorgb32() doesn't work for me in ffdshow's avisynth dialogue, but I'm not worried about it. I just hope the problem will be solved one day...
Just wanted to tell you all, that the problem is not related to NVidia cards (which I wouldn't recommend to buy anyway...)

[Soulhunter]

Not NVidia related ??? :confused:

The graphic-card was all Ive changed... (and drivers of course ! ;))

Converttorgb32() doesn't work for you ?

Does it crash the player ??? (C++ error ?)

When yes, try one version before...

Hmm... Thought the Radeon cards use some sort of other output-processing, that would solve this problem...
So, what is it then... ??? Maybe because its a VIVO ??? :confused:

No matter, I'm happy now !

Bye

[Prettz]

My Geforce3 classic produces some color smeering when playing videos in full screen (you have to have it enlarged to full screen to be able to notice it, but once in full screen it's extremely noticeable and ugly). This happens in all media players EXCEPT bsplayer, which produces no color smeering at all, leading me to believe that the problem is the drivers (but I have a Hercules 3D Prophet III, which is the only Geforce3 card that uses drivers from the card manufacturer and not Nvidia's reference drivers).

[drebel]

Nvidia graphic cards, at least the old Geforce2 serie, had problems with intense colors (red, violet...).The problem was that the tv-out chip (especially the chrontel one) had a difficulty keeping the right voltage all the time , thing which made a lot of people hard mod their cards to avoid the ennoying effect.Also , TV tool seems to help a lot ,by fine tunning the "color carrier" tab.One can find helpful info at their site
It's well known that ATI keeps filtering the video output to avoid these nasty situations and I think better EMI protection (especially some silver pcb models ...).But some might find its image kinda blurry.It's intirely up to us to decide.All I can say is that the "Nvidia+TVtool" combo may easily compare the "Catalyst+ a radeon tweaker " one

[crOOk]

@Soulhunter
Converttorgb32() doesn't work as well as any other avs command in ffdshow's avs dialogue (using mplayerc). The output just turns all green, well not all green, actually there's lots of horizontal green lines. I've got to admit: I haven't tried much yet, haven't even changed the player... and really, I'm not worried about it since I know everything's gonna be back to normal as soon as I manage to convert the output to rgb32.
But thanks for your advice, maybe I'll try some older versions of ffdshow.

[Soulhunter]

Posted by Prettz
My Geforce3 classic produces some color smearing when playing videos in full screen (you have to have it enlarged to full screen to be able to notice it, but once in full screen it's extremely noticeable and ugly). This happens in all media players EXCEPT bsplayer, which produces no color smearing at all, leading me to believe that the problem is the drivers (but I have a Hercules 3D Prophet III, which is the only Geforce3 card that uses drivers from the card manufacturer and not Nvidia's reference drivers).
This small 2x2 pixel blocks that can be seen in high-intense red chroma, are also visible when the player is in window mode... ;)

Maybe this "smearing" is a other problem... :confused:

It was discovered here, that this blocks aper, because the YV12 colorspace, and the wrong chroma-upsampling !

Upsampling the colorspace to RGB32 corrected this bad looking red blocks... :)

So I thought the Radeon cards/drivers using some sort of internal color upsamling, while the NVidia is keeping it... :confused:



Posted by drebel
NVidia graphic cards, at least the old Geforce2 serie, had problems with intense colors (red, violet...).The problem was that the tv-out chip (especially the chrontel one) had a difficulty keeping the right voltage all the time , thing which made a lot of people hard mod their cards to avoid the ennoying effect.Also , TV tool seems to help a lot ,by fine tunning the "color carrier" tab.One can find helpful info at their site
It's well known that ATI keeps filtering the video output to avoid these nasty situations and I think better EMI protection (especially some silver pcb models ...).But some might find its image kinda blurry.It's intirely up to us to decide.All I can say is that the "Nvidia+TVtool" combo may easily compare the "Catalyst+ a radeon tweaker " one
Not sure about this...
Because converting the bad looking frames into RGB32 removed this red-blocks ! So when its a problem with the GF2 tv-out voltage thing, this would also apear in the converted frames... But they looked OK !
Also changing stuff into color-tab does nothing to this problem...
Be sure, thanks to ALL THE NICE PPL here, now I know that it is just a problem with the wrong color-upsampling... ;)

Bye

[Soulhunter]

Hi again,

I found this (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/Radeon7500_vs_geforce4mx/index2.html) info about Radeon7500...


Heres a quote from the link:
In terms of hardware acceleration support, it's the same as we had under OS9 for the Radeon product. We take over the chain once the macroblocks have been parsed and use the hardware to perform the inverse discrete cosine transform (iDCT), motion compensation, subpicture overlay, YUV to RGB conversion and scaling to the screen.
Ok ! Its about the Radeon7500's hardware acceleration for DVD playback...

But this "YUV to RGB conversation" stuff, seems to be exactly what I thought ! ;)

Bye

[nuked]

OK I've been curious for awhile. Those yuv equations shown a ways back have offset values... like 128 for U and V as I recall. If not accounted for this could really mess up quantizing preciscion as I understand it and diferently for diferent colors and shades. I could explain my idea in detail but I won't yet at least. For now I'll just ask.... is this accounted for somehow in the compression schemes?

[cult]

All I can say is that the "Nvidia+TVtool" combo may easily compare the "Catalyst+ a radeon tweaker " one
Not true.For example my ati's tvout is 1024@60hz while a geforce2 800x600

[Didée]

All I can say is that the "Nvidia+TVtool" combo may easily compare the "Catalyst+ a radeon tweaker " oneNot true.For example my ati's tvout is 1024@60hz while a geforce2 800x600
... and still unbeaten by anything is Matrox' 720x576 true-overscan TV-out. :)
At least in PAL land, I can't speak for NTSC.

- Didée

[Soulhunter]

Have read the feature-list of my Radeon... :D
VIDEO FEATURES:

- FULLSTREAM™ hardware accelerated de-blocking of Internet video streams

- Hardware accelerated de-blocking of RealVideo video streams

- Integrated MPEG-2 decode including iDCT and motion compensation

- All format DTV/HDTV decode

- Top quality DVD with lowest CPU usage

- YUV to RGB color space conversion

- Back-end scaler delivers top quality playback

- 4-tap horizontal and vertical filtering

- Upscaling and downscaling

- Filtered display of images up to 1920 pixels wide

- Unique adaptive per-pixel deinterlacing feature combines the best elements of the "bob" and "add-field" (weave) techniques

- Hardware mirroring for flipping video images in video conferencing systems

- Supports 8-bit alpha blending and video keying for effective overlay of video and graphics
Don't known that it does all thus stuff... !!! :confused:

"Hardware accelerated de-blocking of RealVideo video streams" Uhm... What ???

Does it mean, it should play my RV9 encodes faster now... ? :D :D :D

Bye

[drebel]

Not true.For example my ati's tvout is 1024@60hz while a geforce2 800x600

Sorry for the misunderstanding, guys.I wasn't talking about my Geforce (2MX) .Newer models have different tv-out chips than my crappy chrontel one,and of course ,they support higher resolutions ,just like the ATIs do

Fullstream technology doesn'y necesserely add quality to mpeg2-4 videos (by deblocking).But that 's according to a review about 3 months old...

[Soulhunter]

@drebel
But that 's according to a review about 3 months old...
Ive forgotten to ask... :D

Could you please give me a link to this review... ???

Bye

[drebel]

Oooups ! It's 3 months and a year old...
It's a link at Tom's about fullstream.But I doupht there's any advance in that area since then

http://www17.tomshardware.com/graphic/20020819/radeon9700-27.html

[mf]

Btw, I have to note that contrary to my GF2Pro, ATI's Radeon 9800 Pro has chroma upsampling on VMR9 (not overlay) YV12 rendering. Very nice, now I won't need ConvertToRGB32() anymore.

[Sharktooth]

Uhm. I own a GF3 and i fixed the problem using software overlay instead.
It seems to me there is something in hardware thats causing all the mess.

PS. I experience the same problem with DVDs (i use powerdvd) when enabling HW acceleration.

[Soulhunter]

Thanks for the link... :D

Would be cool to have a list of cards that show this problem, or not... !

If anybody find such a list, or more info about this stuff... Post it here ! ;)

Bye

[drebel]

Btw, I have to note that contrary to my GF2Pro, ATI's Radeon 9800 Pro has chroma upsampling on VMR9 (not overlay) YV12 rendering. Very nice, now I won't need ConvertToRGB32() anymore.

You mean hardware support on VMR9 ? I'm asking this because with my Gforce2MX, I never had to use that line to have VMR9 output directly after the codec's (XviD in YV12 to be exact) dshow decoder filter

[mf]

Originally posted by drebel
You mean hardware support on VMR9 ? I'm asking this because with my Gforce2MX, I never had to use that line to have VMR9 output directly after the codec's (XviD in YV12 to be exact) dshow decoder filter
I don't understand what you mean. Please clarify.

[drebel]

All I meant was this:

why did you need to ConvertToRGB32() with your old card in the first place? Did your Gforce2pro have a rendering problem with YV12 movies and VMR9?
I know that older cards like mine are using software mode to perform VMR9 output , unlike your new ATI which uses hardware support on Directx9 (and VMR)

I never had to use that line to have VMR9 output directly after the codec's (XviD in YV12 to be exact) dshow decoder filter

That was an attempt to describe the filter chain in graphedit.

Avi->Xvid decoder->VMR9 , without unnecessary colorspace conversions in between

[Soulhunter]

Compare between Avisynth's and Radeons upsampling...


Original
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/Soulhunter-No.1/Original2.jpg


Bad upsampling
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/Soulhunter-No.1/Wrong_Upsample.jpg


AviSynth's upsampling
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/Soulhunter-No.1/AviSynth_Upsample.jpg


Radeon's upsampling (VMR9)
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/Soulhunter-No.1/Radeon_Upsample.jpg


Bye

[hopstiii]

I have same problem even with x264 lossless 720p @ Bit rate 37.0 Mbps.
There is no resized video, and no such problem in RAW uncompressed RGB video.

I consider it definitely a bug because it's ugly for eye to watch.

It was major problem in some How I Met Your Mother episodes that i riped from DVD's to XviD 2000 kbit/s with max quality settings.
In scenes where camera was standing still, bar restaurant red;- wine / dress / lights/ table-cloth. The whole scene is still, everybody is sitting, and ugly red pixels everywhere.

Can it be the color space bug, because it's even in lossless X264.

[henryho_hk]

It is a compromise between fidelity and data size. There is not much we can do:

1) do proper IVTC or use a high quality bobber (TGMC or QTGMC) before compression.
2) use madVR (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228) when viewing.

[Dark Shikari]

I have same problem even with x264 lossless 720p @ Bit rate 37.0 Mbps.
There is no resized video, and no such problem in RAW uncompressed RGB video.

I consider it definitely a bug because it's ugly for eye to watch.

It was major problem in some How I Met Your Mother episodes that i riped from DVD's to XviD 2000 kbit/s with max quality settings.
In scenes where camera was standing still, bar restaurant red;- wine / dress / lights/ table-cloth. The whole scene is still, everybody is sitting, and ugly red pixels everywhere.

Can it be the color space bug, because it's even in lossless X264.Your player's YV12 -> RGB conversion is broken. It has absolutely nothing to do with x264.

[henryho_hk]

BTW, since your "How I Met Your Mother" is from a DVD, it should be in MPEG2 YV12 colorspace already. How do these scenes look on the PC monitor?

[hopstiii]

Your player's YV12 -> RGB conversion is broken. It has absolutely nothing to do with x264.

Hard to belive, it's years ad years been like that with different players (VLC, MPC-HC).
But my monitor is not true 24bit but 18bit and its faking it to look like 24bit. Might be that.

BTW, since your "How I Met Your Mother" is from a DVD, it should be in MPEG2 YV12 colorspace already. How do these scenes look on the PC monitor?

I will search an good example and post vs screenshot here, now it seems there is no such problem on DVD as im looking DVD's

It is a compromise between fidelity and data size. There is not much we can do:

1) do proper IVTC or use a high quality bobber (TGMC or QTGMC) before compression.
2) use madVR (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228) when viewing.

How is it done, can i do it in VirtualDub?

[Dark Shikari]

Hard to belive, it's years ad years been like that with different players (VLC, MPC-HC).
But my monitor is not true 24bit but 18bit and its faking it to look like 24bit. Might be that.No, the problem is that your graphics card isn't doing interpolation on the chroma channels during YV12->RGB conversion, so it looks blocky.

[hopstiii]

I found out my How I Met Your Mother rips look perfect now in newest VLC and i got ride of the problem in MPC-HC by changing output from EVR Custom Pres. ** to Haali Renderer **
I just yesterday updated GPU drivers also.