warpsharp vs xsharpen vs msharpen vs unfilter for anime

[Dark-Cracker]

Hi,

i have make some little screenshot with the different filter for sharp a video, i have made these tests for an anime, i think these can interested some people who generaly make some anime and don't realy know which sharp filter they must use.

genrely to encode a anime u clean/smooth the source (with 2Dcleaner or smartSmoothHiQ or temporalsoften/temporalSmoother) an after u sharp the video to get more details.

i have made some tests with :
(all filter YUY2)

warpsharp
xsharpen
msharpen
unfilter

i have make a screenshot of unfilter to show a "standard" sharp filter it was not designed for the anime but for the movie.

(these filters show the difference beetween the source and the picture filtered)

Unfilter :
http://www.eclipsedvd.firstream.net/autodub/Filter_screenshot/unfilter.jpg

MSharpen :
http://www.eclipsedvd.firstream.net/autodub/Filter_screenshot/msharpen.jpg

XSharpen :
http://www.eclipsedvd.firstream.net/autodub/Filter_screenshot/xsharpen.jpg

Warpsharp :
http://www.eclipsedvd.firstream.net/autodub/Filter_screenshot/warpsharp.jpg

i don't have make a compressibilty test (because i have actually no time) but i will edit these post as soon as possible to post the result.

Bye.

[Metalazzo]

the result with msharpen and warpsharp seems to be good for anime stuff
i think unfilter will be better on movie

[OUTPinged_]

genrely to encode a anime u clean/smooth the source

To encode anime DVD you usually _dont_ have to clean a source.

You use all filtering only in cases where source' quality is real bad.

In questionable cases just use a temporal denoiser and sharper resize like Lanczos.

If you still arent satisfied, reduce resolution a bit.

I got a minor visual improvement using a C3D+WS combo for UY dvd but that thing is broken and looks real crappy when unfiltered. I am still not sure if it is better to just leave it alone at high quantizer, and not filter. With large amount of noise added it looks tolerable on TV and that is the point.

[edit] And you guys shouldn't filter Spirited Away DVD, it is far from being "bad".

[Dark-Cracker]

personally i prefer use a denoise filter because the sharp filter increase noise , a 2Dcleaner will avoid block and mosquito when u use low bitrate. and of course a sharp filter will reduce the compressibility, and a denoise filter will improve the compressibilty.

but of course if your source is clean and u have a good compressibility u are not forced to use filter. no denoise and no sharp filter. but if u read this thread it because u want use filters.

[Zarxrax]

In my opinion, you should always filter anime no matter how good it looks. It has gone through DCT from the mpeg2 which has introduced artifacts into the video stream. If the source is clean, all that means is that the artifacts aren't bad enough that you can see them, though they still exist. When you reencode the video these artifacts that you couldn't see before get exponentially worse. So by filtering them out some before you encode, the final result can look a good bit nicer.

[manono]

Hi-

Lots of opinions. Mine is that Spirited Away is as clean as they come and needs no smoothing or sharpening at all (although I did use LanczosResize). Your time would be better spent getting rid of the horrible pink tint.

[Marc FD]

i think my opinion might be interressing, as i encode anime only, and my filters are often designed for anime. (but not all !! you can, no you shoud use s3dc for movies ^^)

so let's share my impressions on this topic :

first, dark cracker (slt au fait ^^), your test is not good. using subtract is a good idea to compare resamplers (comme tu l'as conseillé TSO) but here, it's really not a good idea : xsharpen and warpsharp are modifing the picture a lot. IMHO, it would be more interessing to see the result and not the diff.

second, using sharpening in pre processing is not a good idea. with RV9 encodes, it's defendable, but for MPEG-4 (DivX,XviD or whatever) it's really bad. MPEG-4 encoders _hate_ edges.

third, OUTPinged_ is 50% right : filtering a clean source is not a good idea. if you oversharpen it, it'll be more difficult to encode, and if you use heavy denosing + heavy sharpening, it'll be very modified. it's exactly what does the RV9 pre processing, and if we encode without, i think it's better to avoid this destruction, at least for bitrate over 600 kbps.

fourth, OUTPinged is 50% wrong : you should _always_ filter anime sources. always always always. for very very clean HQ MPEG-2 DVD9, of course you wouldn't use heavy filtering. a very sweet convolution3d or simple3dcleaneer if you have time, or faster a moderate PP. (or when s3dc would be SIMDed, it'ld be damn fast too). because like Zarxrax said, you need to get rid of the noise of the MPEG-2 encoding process. and moreover, anime DVD are often based on analogic sources, and they never denoise correctly ^^

fifth, you should always look what the ENCODED result look like. and keep in mind that fast cpus (and they'll get faster and faster) can do incredible things in Post Processing, if your encode is clean enough. for example, sharpening is great when used in postprocessing. when i would have some time (in 2017, like vlad always say) i would code a SIMD block-based unsharp mask pros processing helper for ffdshow. it'ld help to get incredible sharp effect on anime sources wihtout too much blocking. that's approximatively what the RV9 post processor does (but mine would be better, because it's opensource developement ^^)

so, my humble advice is the following :
>> clean MPEG-2 source
> for MPEG-4 (DivX,XviD)
MPEG2Dec3 (if you want) and light c3d/s3dc, Lanczos/Neutral bi^3 resampling
> for RV9
only Lanczos resampling
>> crappy MPEG-2 source (HK dvds)
> for MPEG-4 (DivX,XviD)
MPEG2Dec3 (usefull) c3d/s3dc with med settings, Neutral bi^3
resampling
> for RV9
MPEG2Dec3 (usefull), Lanczos resampling
>> crappy analogic source
> for MPEG-4 (DivX,XviD)
Cnr2, heavy c3d/s3dc, warpsharp (the only good pre-processing sharpening filter), Neutral bi^3 Resampling
> for RV9
Cnr2, c3d/s3dc with med settings, Neutral bi^3 Resampling

(feel free to copy paste this in any tutorial if you think it's a good sum up for anime filtering ^^)

Regards,
MarcFD

[Dark-Cracker]

Hi,

>first, dark cracker (slt au fait ^^)
salut

>your test is not good. using subtract is a good idea to compare resamplers (comme tu l'as conseillé TSO) but here, it's really not a good idea : xsharpen and warpsharp are modifing the picture a lot. IMHO, it would be more interessing to see the result and not the diff.

i have use a script with the subtract function because a lot of peoples (like TSO) don't see the difference beetween the 2 pictures (source and filtered). it for that i prefer the subtract function , u can easyly see the difference beetween the differents settings with the filter (even if u use fine tuning for the settings).

i don't have create this thread for explain what is the best filter for anime but simply to show (for the people who are interested) the difference beetween the different sharp filters.

Bye.

[Yama4050242]

@Dark-Cracker
the picture links are not available, can you update them? i am really interested in this comparison

[Alxemi]

Hey i was going to start a thread quite like this one :)
But instead jpgs, i have some XviD videos (in a server temporaly down)
The server should be up shortly. I will post URL then.
Greetings people

[jorel]

can you include asharp in the tests too? (i know,it's "YV12 inside")

[Chainmax]

Would it be a bad idea to use aWarpSharp+MSharpen/Unfilter/SSXSharpen on anime or cartoons with thick black outlines? Should I be better off just using mftoon instead?

[theReal]

I've been using warpsharp and xsharpen on the Simpsons, but only when I re-encoded VCD Simpsons captures (and of course I threw in some heavy smoothing before :) ).
For any source better than VCD I think sharpening filters make the results worse.

btw as long as you have close and half-close views in the Simpsons sharpening always looks great with warpsharp - but as soon as you have wide-views with a lot of smaller details, warpsharp starts smearing the edges and it doesn't look good anymore...

[geoffwa]

for producing results that look like they've been filtered with Warpsharp.

Don't forget mpeg2dec's post processing features!

[Chainmax]

theReal: I never read anything about aWarpSharp smearing edges before, does that happen to you only with "The Simpsons"?

Anyway, I guess I'll try aWarpSharp+SSXSharpen as soon as I get a faster PC.