Some hardware questions.

[pirata]

Hi everybody.

I have some hardware questions that you might be helpful with.

-RAID:

I am thinking of buying a motherboard Gigabyte GA-8PE667 which has a Promise PDC 20276 RAID controller chip. More exactly: the motherboard has 4 IDE connectors (I swear! I saw them!). 2 are the normal UDMA100 we all already know. The other 2 have 2 behaviours: either normal UDMA133/199/... (2 channels, up to 4 devices), or RAID133 (up to 2 HDs in RAID0 or 1).

Well, I have 2 Seagate HDs, one is 60GB-7200rpm, and the other 20-5400rpm. Can I still use them in RAID 0? I mean, to have some partitions in a "common space" (the first 20 GB of the big HD and the full 20GB of the small one), and the resting partitions in the remaining 40GB of the big HD. Is that in general possible, or is it RAID chip dependent? Is there any problem with the speed difference (7200 against 5400)?

-PCTel AMR modem:

I have a PCTel AMR modem which I'd like to use as a phone device (to make calls using my soundcard, the speakers and a microphone; I also want to record calls, to have an answering machine, etc...). I've installed the driver, but I don't know which program to use to be able to make the calls. I can't even communicate with the modem (I tried Microsoft's Hyperterminal, but it doesn't respond to any command). Have anybody of you had experiences with such devices?

-UDMA66:

My motherboard supports UDMA66 but I am working at UDMA2 with both HDs and my DVD (all UDMA66 capable).
My motherboard is Elitegroup with a VIA Apollo Pro133 chipset. I am using 40connector-80conductor cables on both channels. I've tried VIA 4in1 4.38 and also the latest 4.43. Also tried the miniport driver (with UDMATool). I've tried a registry tweak that should enable UDMA66 in XP. I've tried the udata100.exe utility from Seagate (the maker of my HDs): Nothing solved the problem.


Thanks to those who answer.

[theReal]

the motherboard has 4 IDE connectors (I swear! I saw them!). That's not so uncommon nowadays - I also have a board like that (Epox 8K7A+, AMD761 chipset with additional HPT UDMA100 RAID controller).
I wouldn't buy anything with less than 4 IDE channels anymore ;)

Well, I have 2 Seagate HDs, one is 60GB-7200rpm, and the other 20-5400rpm. Can I still use them in RAID 0? I mean, to have some partitions in a "common space" (the first 20 GB of the big HD and the full 20GB of the small one), and the resting partitions in the remaining 40GB of the big HD. Is that in general possible, or is it RAID chip dependent? Is there any problem with the speed difference (7200 against 5400)? You could do that, but you'd end up with a 40GB RAID0 that will only be as fast as a RAID0 with two of the 20GB 5400rpm drives. The remaining 40GB of the bigger drive will be lost, you can't use them.
Better buy another 60GB 7200rpm Seagate HD (the same model as the other one) and make a RAID0 with those two.

[pirata]

Losing the resting 40GB is in general true, or is it RAID controller dependent?
How important is it for RAID setups that the 2 HD are exactly the same (size, speed, manufacturer, model)?

I have on more question, this time regarding old Soundblaster ISA soundcards: I own al old SB AWE 32 soundcard, which has a SPDIF connector mounted on the board. It looks like rather like a jumper left open. I am using Win XP Pro native drivers with it, and I'd like to know if somebody has been able to take some signal out of it. I'd like to know whether the WinXP drivers support that SPDIF connector, how to use it, and which piece of hardware (connector cable...) is needed.

By the way, there is also an IDE Mitsumi connector that I'd like to use with an old Mitsumi CD drive. I attached the card and the drive with a IDE cable (an old one, not UDMA capable). Connected the drive to the power supply, but nothing happened. Somehow I have to indicate WinXP that the drive is there. The real problem was that even though the drive was connected to the supply, it would not open when the eject button was pressed. The supply cable was OK.

Anybody willing to say something about my PCTel AMR modem problem or my UDMA66 problem?

Thanks, Pirata

[pirata]

Hey I've found something in Win XP Pro that may be interesting. XP Pro provides software RAID 0, 1, 5 and JBOD, that is stripping, mirroring, redundancy and extended volume (one volume spreading over several drives).

Some conclusions I think I've found:

-HDs with different sizes/spindle speeds can be used: they are turned into so-called dynamic discs, and former partitions are removed from the partition table and turned into dynamic volumes (except for boot/system partitions). More exactly, they are turned into simple volumes (dynamic volumes that exist in just one HD). This volumes can be made RAID 0, 1 or whatever, with whatever discs you fancy.

-Software is not as fast as hardware... But my CPU is always almost idle! I don't care to give it something to do, as long as the loading times are reduced (they use to be the bottleneck). :-)

-The great catch I already found is that you cannot use a RAID 0 partition for the partition where you install Win XP: you just can put the pagefile and the apps in a stripped partition, but not windows itself (as far as I know). Maybe there is some means to move as many parts of Windows to a stripped partition... I don't know. Anyway, data partitions can be stripped.

I am thinking more about this, and just remembered that 2 HDs in a single channel cannot communicate with the CPU at the same time. If I want to use stripping, I have to move the second HD to the second channel and set it as master. But then, my DVD and CD-RW have to be slaves. The DVD is UDMA66 capable. That means that, even when it is not as fast as a HD at reading, when its buffer is full, it transmits along the IDE cable as fast as the HD does (or so I think). For that matter, I don't think the DVD will be a slow-down problem, but the CD-RW will. It is only DMA Multiple Word mode 2 capable, and it will slow down the HD if I attache them together. Any comment on that?

Has anybody ever had experiences with Windows RAID? Is it worth to try it?

By the way: I have been reading some RAID motherboard reviews (motherboards with an integated RAID controller), and one big questions has come to me: can you use a stripped partition (RAID 0) to install the OS, or are they limited to data partitions (so you have to use the normal IDE UDMA controller for the HD containing the OS partition, as always?). If that is so, RAID won't have such a big impact in performance. Windows dlls are always being loaded... stripping should be used there.


Cheers, Pirata

[theReal]

A friend of mine has been using the Win2k software striping for a while and the performance was quite good - almost as good as from an IDE RAID controller (which are mostly not real hardware controllers like the expensive SCSI RAID controllers).

You already pointed out the negative points of using the software RAID: you cannot install the OS on the RAID partition and you don't have enough master devices.

With any hardware RAID controller you can install the OS on striped RAID partitions, all you have to do is to load the drivers for the controller during installation.

My setup is like this: 2 IBM 120GB Deskstar drives, 7200 rpm as two single master devices connected to the Highpoint RAID controller. I use them for Win2k, installed programs, capture and the rest of it for storage. Then I have 2 WD 60GB drives, 5400 rpm that I use only for storage and temporary files, only stuff that doesn't really need a fast HD (although they're not too slow :)). The two WD drives are connected to IDE1 as master and slave, my CDRW and DVD drive are connected to IDE2 as master and slave.
That's the reason I wouldn't want anything less than 4 IDE controllers anymore :D

[pirata]

What do you mean with "and you don't have enough master devices"?
You said soft-RAID is near to hardware-RAID. If that's true, what the heck does an IDE RAID controler??!!


My concerns now:

When going strip, placing 1 HD as master of each channel, are the other drives still usable? I mean does Win XP Pro somehow ignore the slaves? There is no reason to think so, but I have never been involved with this before.

If my interpretation is right, soft-RAID is quite flexible, overcoming differences such as rpm or size among several HDs. Am I right? (maybe ask your friend, or give me his email address :-) ).
The only catch is the OS partition not being stripable.

I wonder how flexible are hardware IDE RAID controllers about those differences in rpm and size.

By the way, I guess that Win XP Pro should somehow detect when you are doing things wrong. 'Wrong' means putting woth HDs in the same channel. I really wonder the way Windows tells the user he has to move the 2nd HD to the second channel. Maybe your friend knows! :-)

But now, the only big big trouble about all this: I am a happy user of Partition Magic and Drive Image. I couldn't live without Drive Image. Whenever the OS gets screwed, I restore the image and I am again in business. But none of those programs support dynamic drives/volumes. If I ever want to have striping on my HD, I have to find an equivalent to those programs. There are Windows native tools (the Administrative Tools) for partioning, but the windows backup utility is not quite good for me. You have to install first Windows (which takes already a large while), and then rstore the backup. I don't know how thoroughly the system is backed up with that tool, though. I think I tried it before choosing Image Drive and I disliked it very much.

So my question is: does anybody of you know about a drive imaging tool capable to backup dynamic volumes?


Pirata

[pirata]

ANYBODY OUT THERE?

[trodas]

Dont worry, pirata, im here to help you :D
I have a Abit ST6R mainboard with the R as RAID and i used it recently, so...
I also using the Drive Image software on my bootable Zip, so...

The key is to create a botable device with Drive Image, that can acess the backup you made (and burn on CD or wheather) and - most important - to you run the driver for your RAID before the Drive Image. There are, before drive image starts (at least on the CD i got it, with ERZ win2x/XP boot/commander), it loads plenty of drivers - almost all failure, ofcourse, as i own only a Zip - the RAID i disabled.

Reasons? Well, it offers cool speed, but into real word, the speed is not that big, as into tests, so, i realized that i prefer quiet one drive, 80G Seagate IV and with slight loss of speed that two noisy Westerss, generating lots of heat that score over 38.000 on SiSoft Sandra 2000 benchamark.
Thats cool, right? But you never get the performace out of it, because into real life, the speed is compromised, because for example, for loading a level into Wolfenstain, you mainly need as much memory, as you can get (giving Wolf over 200MB is a GOOD idea + leaving about 400+ MB free for cache and buffer and winblows) and then you need as fast GFX card as possible when come to AGP speed AND - a ultrafast CPU is a must.
So, the poor drive are just about 5-8% of the loading speed. So, even if this can be shrinked down to say 3-4% - you gain nothing.

Sorro for my raid-negative point of view.

Another reason why NOT RAID is, that it add something nonstandard to your machine. Any that mostly bring problems. I never advice this, tought when i buy yourself a burner finally, i have to use the raid again... sigh...
Serial ATA sounds good. But the same as for RAID are valid there - nonstandard = you are asking for troubles.

[theReal]

But the same as for RAID are valid there - nonstandard = you are asking for troubles.
I didn't mention it yet - but I'd never put important data on a RAID. The chance that a RAID will fail is much higher than that of a single drive. Not only is the risk of HD-hardware failures doubled, but also if the controller fails (hardware or software), you cannot take the drive and put it in another pc to save the data...

The friend I mentioned with the Win2k/NT software RAID has lost about 100GB of mp3 on his NT server where the software RAID wasn't recognized anymore after a fresh install... We both tried hard to find a way to save the data, but it was gone...

However - if you're dealing with a lot of big files (captures, DVD rips, DV editing) that need to be stream copied and moved into temporary files all the time, then you really profit from every bit of speed you can get. When I compare the speed I get on my RAID for a preview in Ulead media studio to PC's with slower HD's, I just wouldn't want to miss it. However, the rule is: don't put important, not yet back-upped data on the RAID for more than a few hours :D

[TCCK]

If your friend had made a repair disk by going into Windows backup (access this by typing: "ntbackup" in the run command) he would have been able to put that in after re-installing his OS and the new OS would have known the configuration of that dynamic disk volume.

Windows 2000 calls it an "Emergency Repair Disk" and Windows XP Pro calls it a "Automated System Recovery WIzard" but they do basically the same thing. Put the registry settings on a floppy and the disk configuration.

Software RAID is getting better but I will stick to high end SCSI U160 and now U320 drives and RAID controllers as they almost never fail and they are cheaply purchased on eBay.

Trust me I have over 3 terrabytes of data in my home on SCSI RAID controllers and SCSI drives!

[pirata]

I find it irritating when people consider "a piece of advice" just to say "go to the store and spend a lot of bucks for f*ng good/expensive hardware"

I CANNOT AFFORD THAT, MAN! I AM STILL STUDYING AND I HAVE A LOT OTHER MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO PUT MY MONEY IN!!!!!!

SOFTWARE RAID IS GOOOOOOOOD!!!!!! AND RAID-0 AS WELL!!!!!!

Anyway, thanks for answering and playing a role in the forum.

[theReal]

The friend I mentioned has learnt from his experiences: he recently bought himself a Siemens Primergy server with 100GB SCSI RAID 5, hot spare, with a Mylex RAID controller, 3 redundant PSUs, 4 Pentium Pro 200 and a dual network adapter. For his less important data he put in some more IDE drives so the whole thing has about 560 GB of storage space now :)

However, what I wanted to say is that he only paid 600 Euro for the Primergy (on Ebay), everything included (except the IDE drives he added). So, SCSI RAID 5 for important data does not have to be extremely expensive :)

(I should have bought the second Primergy, but right now I don't have enough place for a monster like this... btw. have I mentioned this guy has a server room in his apartment filled with the Primergy, a 19" server rack with 3 additional pcs and a 2500W USV plus of course also about one PC per room? His power consumption is about that of a small town... LOL)


If your friend had made a repair disk by going into Windows backup (access this by typing: "ntbackup" in the run command) he would have been able to put that in after re-installing his OS and the new OS would have known the configuration of that dynamic disk volume. I guess his not doing so was the biggest problem. I don't even know what kinds of things he tried, but he also installed XP and Win2k to use their recovery features, I think he tried about everything that he could find on the web and in newsgroups. I really thought he'd make it because he really knows what to do in such cases, better than me. But this RAID must have been doomed or something...

[trodas]

The most important problem in case of failed SW raid is "How to convice the OS to acess this drive(s) as before" ...

On sucess into this task depend all the rest.

Basicaly - data did not, and never ever disapear.

Even my drive lost its FAT table, i was able to resore more that 98% out of it. Tought, it cost me another drive (you have to get one to restoring too, right?) and about a week of work, fiddling with programs that "promised to do the work" (mainly when you register) but failed realy badly.
The worsest is the Repoman things, what claim even restore-rebuild the FAT from what they find at the drive - sounds promising, but it never works.
I end with 300k util called Recover it all what really do the job, including long names and trying realy hard to find everything it can. Forget programs like "Easy recovery" with thousads or "awards" and such a crap...

Tought in case of RAID, there is no possible sucess - how you the hell can convice any tool, to acess the space as SW raid with settings, you probably hardly remember...??? :rolleyes:

That suxx.

I never ever try raid. Its just not worth it.