Authoring Software just like the Professionals ?????

[Ekin]

Ok I have this question I don't know if anybody knows the answere. But here goes, ...I recently bought a DVD and there menus are sooo awsome...I mean really good. It's just like a Macromedia Flash file. It's INTERACTIVE. In the first play they have like a windmill turning slowly. It looks like it's animation. From there if Click on "Chapter Selection" all of a sudden there's lighting went across the screen while the screen zooming in the windmill to go to the "chapter selection" screen. And in there they have a little TV on the right and a listing of chapters on the left. When I navigate from chapter 1 to chapter 2. The TV has a little motion clip playing. Each chapter have their own little clip playing in the same TV window when I select it....Soo anybody know how and what software they made it with ??? Well I know that ReelDVD can't do it. And I don't think Maestro have it either. What about Scenarist?? Anybody know ?? I have all three but know know how to use Scenarist.....

[mpucoder]

Most likely scenarist, its been used by the pros since day one.

edit: and it can do all of that, which, btw, isn't uncommon for Hollywood DVDs.

[Arky]

Care to tell us what the name of the DVD title is?

Anyway, in answer to your question, no DVD-authoring system can completely accomplish the results you are looking for. In all likelihood, the menus were created using a combination of a composited video background (using a Picture In Picture effect, judging by your description), together with animated subpictures. There are many programs which can do video compositing, the best of which, IMHO, is Adobe After Effects, but this is not a particularly easy program to learn. Look here for an alternative method:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27176

With regard to the animated subpictures, this is largely done within the domain of the DVD-authoring app (best for this is Scenarist), and is an ongoing topic of discussion on this forum:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37074


Arky ;o)

[auenf]

Originally posted by Ekin
Well I know that ReelDVD can't do it. And I don't think Maestro have it either. What about Scenarist?? Anybody know ?? I have all three but know know how to use Scenarist.....

actually, just about every authoring software that supports motion menus can do that. you have to set all the buttons to auto action, and each highlighted button has its own menu with its own animated background.

Enf...

[slk001]

Maestro can do this just as easily (?) as Scenarist. This is just the linking of other menus through the buttons. Arky is correct in that the actual videos are created in other programs, because neither program can do this on its own (I create all my motion menus - PIP type - using LAYER and MASK commands in AviSynth). Depending on the amount of work that you want to do just for a menu, you can do this too.

To see what I mean, rip the movie in question (ALL OF IT) and look at some of the VTS_XX_0.VOB files (where menu animations are usually kept) and view each VOB_ID separately. You will see all of the separate "parts" of the animation in these VOB_IDs.

For instance, where the video goes from a windmill to a lighning flash and zoom, when you hit the CHAPTER SELECTION button, all that the CS button really does is jump to a "dummy" menu with the lightning flash /zoom that times out to the real CS menu.

[Ekin]

slk001: Thanks for the reply. And I think you know what I am talking about...That DVD is a Region 3 and they make their DVD so nice. So SLK001 can you tell me or have a link to a guide on how to do those kind of menu. And please tell me what software does all of that Interactive menus. I love it when the "professional" spend time on their menus. I like that fact that it's Interactive when I click on the buttons, and Lighttine would flash across my TV or door open and closes while zooming in and out...wow..that's the PROs right their.

[easy2Bcheesy]

Ekin - I'm afraid these lovely menus don't just magic themselves up! You really need a qualified graphics artist to create these animations, along with a real mastery of a package like Adobe After Effects to do most of the rendering work. Then you need a MPEG2 encoder to make the M2V stream for the authoring tool.

The authoring tool just puts everything today, it does not originate the assets...

[Ekin]

hmmm...that's interesting. Well yeah I can understand that all of the animation they have to create it in After Effect or something. But in an authoring software, how can they make it so that Lighting strikes only when clicking the buttons.??? Well my knowledge of authoring dvd w/ motion menus in Maestro and Reeldvd serves me that all of my motion menu has to be in one mpeg or m2v and then subpictures on top for buttons. So how can the PROs create a motion menu and I guess a subpictures on top. And the most important thing is that...where would they put the "lighting" at ? The lighting could be as a subpictures or a little 2 secs m2v. But how can they connect a m2v or bmp to "play"?? when click of the buttons ???

[slk001]

Ekin,
You are being confused by believing that you are still on the same menu when you select your button. What is actually happening, is you are jumping to another, nearly identical menu, that begins basically where you made the jump, then morphs into your lightning flash and your "zooming" effect. If you watch the screen closely, you will see a slight pause before the new menu kicks in (it's not entirely "seamless", but it's close enough for most people). You should be able to find your exact menu in one of the VOB_IDs of one of the VTS_XX_0.VOBs.

As for the creation of the "play-after-selection" menu structure, nothing could be easier (the LINKING part, anyway). Just create two video sequences, with the first one being of the relatively simple repeating play type and the second being the effects after the button is pressed. Now, create two separate menus, each with one of the video sequences. The button in the first menu (MENU1) has "CHAPTER SELECTION" on it, but it really takes you to your second video on MENU2. This second video starts out looking exactly like the video in MENU1, buttons and all, but they aren't real (they're just pictures anyway). MENU2 now morphs into your lightning flash, etc.

MENU2 has no (real) buttons on it, just a timeout action to go to the real CHAPTER SELECTION menu after all the effects (the video) has played. The timeout actions are set in the CONNECTIONS window when the menu is selected (in Maestro).

The resulting menu effects themselves are really neat, but as easy said, it takes a lot of work to create.

[Ekin]

Ohhh ok...I think i understand now...so you're saying just create 2 motion menus. Menu 1 is the motion part of the menu. Menu2 ..hmm...should I just capture a .bmp at the last second of Menu 1 and have it start in Menu 2 like for 2 sec. and then the Lighting ect.. ??? From there just time out Menu2 into my REAL MENU ???

[Arky]

Also see here for a possible alternative method:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27226&highlight=trouble+china+lightning


Arky ;o)

[Ekin]

Ok I don't know if I mentioned this already but here goes. OK I am a Karaoke DVD and they make their menu so nice.!! Let say I am in the Song Selection menu. They would have like a list of 7 song titles on the left hand side of the screen, and they would have a window/square on the right hand side. And the awesome thing is that...when I navigate from song #1 to #2 the window/square would play a motion clip of that song. And from #2 to #3...same thing happens. The same window would play a clip of that song for 10 sec and loop. So I guess you get the point right? Each songs would have their own clips and it's audio. And when each songs's buttons is selected, the window/square would play a clip of that song. OK !! So how do they do that ??? with what software ....

[Arky]

By "Select", do you mean actually clicking on a song button (i.e. "executing" the Select command), or do you mean just gliding over it with the cursor?

I can think of a couple of different possibilies, depending on what your answer is to the above question. If it's the latter option, then auto-selection has been used, but I won't bother to go into detail as to what manner it has been used in, until you actually tell me your answer! :)


Arky ;o)

[auenf]

Originally posted by Ekin
Ok I don't know if I mentioned this already but here goes. OK I am a Karaoke DVD and they make their menu so nice.!! Let say I am in the Song Selection menu. They would have like a list of 7 song titles on the left hand side of the screen, and they would have a window/square on the right hand side. And the awesome thing is that...when I navigate from song #1 to #2 the window/square would play a motion clip of that song. And from #2 to #3...same thing happens. The same window would play a clip of that song for 10 sec and loop. So I guess you get the point right? Each songs would have their own clips and it's audio. And when each songs's buttons is selected, the window/square would play a clip of that song. OK !! So how do they do that ??? with what software ....

actually, i think i have that dvd at work (boss bought a bunch of different ones for 'research' before we made our own). and im pretty sure that is using the auto action method.

not much in the way of trickery could be done with the ones we did at work, DVDVirtuoso 2.5 only does so much :(

Enf...

[Ekin]

So can Maestro do the same thing ?? How can they do that ?? What is "auto action"? and how does that work ? I think Maestro has that option...??

[Arky]

Well, "auto-action" (which is what I meant by "auto-selection" - thanx for correcting my terminology, auenf!) is basically a command which can be applied to a button during the authoring process which means that whatever function the button is connected to, can be made to operate when you move the cursor over the button during playback without even having to execute it deliberately.

SO, in the case of your menu, one possibility would be to link each of your menu buttons to a different chapter point in a video stream (or even to a different video stream altogether, for each button, although this might be a little more jumpy during playback, and would actually constitute a duplicate menu in each instance). Then, when you rolled the cursor across a button, it would (unbeknown to the viewer) jump to a different chapter point in your background video stream. The illusion of a consistent background is still maintained, but there is this trick going on behind the scenes which the viewer is unaware of.

Once you;d set the above scenario up, you'd have to tell Maestro to make each of the buttons "Auto-Action". This option is available on one of the tabs at the bottom of the menu editor. You would also have to carefully set (in the main "connections" dialogue) the end actions for each of the sub-clips/chapters, so that they looped appropriately, otherwise, if you left the menu alone, it would start playing the next button's video, which you had not actually selected.

The above is a VERY brief outline, and others may suggest alternative methods.


Arky ;o)

[dan]

Honestly, I've just skimmed the posts on the topic, so sorry if I'm repeating, but I'm pressed for time and feel like being [possibly] useful...

There is a chance that the video clips appearing when he navigates the cursor over the song names could be a result of subpicture highlight manipulation. If the video is "hiding" underneath a subpicture area that is at 100% opacity, when the cursor moves over that particular song [the area of the button would include the colored box contained in the subpicture as well as the "song name" area], the opacity could change to 0%, effectively making the video "appear" out of thin air, no pauses or disc seeking.
Being that he said the menus looked so 'great', having that solid block of color may not help the menu's aesthetics, but given that people are almost endlessly creative, something that looks good and stays within the four color subpicture limit could be done. Of course, I also doubt that the authors would go this route, but the only way to tell would be to see the disc in action. For what it's worth, Scenarist could do the opacity changes and button definitions [I do think his original message had something having to do with wondering which programs could do this effect.] without much difficulty. Also, I'd assume Maestro could do it too, but I wouldn't know how, being that it's not the program I use.

Thanks,
Dan

[Ekin]

Arky: I dont' know if I am get this right. But from reading your reply I don't understand some part. Yes I see the "auto action" option on Maestro. I can click that and on the right there's a "target box" that I can assign to the button to any other menus or chapters of the movie when it is click. That's the part I don't get. How can assign that "auto-action" to some other chapter points or another video stream so that I can have a preview of that?? Ok let say i have 3 songs in the video streams. And I have 1 menu w/ 3 buttons all targeted to those 3 songs. If I use the "auto-action" option...how am I connect that to another video ? or a chapter on the timeline ? I am confused !!!

P.S. I saw another DVD on which the menu automatically goes the next one just by clicking the "right" button on my Apex remote. In other words I am in the chapter selection screen and they have 4 chapters buttons. The first default button is chapter 1, when I click the "right" button on my remote it will jump to chapter 2 button and then "right" again to chapter 3 and chapter 4. But when I am on Chapter 4 button I just have to press "right" button on my remote it will automatically goes the the next menu screen. So that I don't have to press "enter" on my remote. So is that the same thing as "auto-action" ? If not then what is it ??

[Crazyjoe]

Originally posted by Ekin

P.S. I saw another DVD on which the menu automatically goes the next one just by clicking the "right" button on my Apex remote. In other words I am in the chapter selection screen and they have 4 chapters buttons. The first default button is chapter 1, when I click the "right" button on my remote it will jump to chapter 2 button and then "right" again to chapter 3 and chapter 4. But when I am on Chapter 4 button I just have to press "right" button on my remote it will automatically goes the the next menu screen. So that I don't have to press "enter" on my remote. So is that the same thing as "auto-action" ? If not then what is it ??

Yes! That's "auto-action". Actually it's a really very simple trick. The buttons you define in your authoring program won't be visible for the user in the final project, until they are content of the still image (in case of a still menu) or the background video (in case of an animated menu). So in your example we have 5 buttons. 4 for the 4 chapters, which are visible in the still image or background video (i don't know, wheter your menu is animted or not), and a fifth button next to the fourth, to which "auto-action" is asigned.

This way is also used for hiding easter eggs on a dvd... :)

[auenf]

Originally posted by Ekin
Arky: I dont' know if I am get this right. But from reading your reply I don't understand some part. Yes I see the "auto action" option on Maestro. I can click that and on the right there's a "target box" that I can assign to the button to any other menus or chapters of the movie when it is click. That's the part I don't get. How can assign that "auto-action" to some other chapter points or another video stream so that I can have a preview of that?? Ok let say i have 3 songs in the video streams. And I have 1 menu w/ 3 buttons all targeted to those 3 songs. If I use the "auto-action" option...how am I connect that to another video ? or a chapter on the timeline ? I am confused !!!

what you'll want to do is create your menu, and duplicate it for as many buttons there are. each version will have a different background video, cause a different button will have 'focus' (or have the selection). the 'current' button on each menu (it will be a different one for each menu) will point to where you want the user to go when the 'activate' the button, the rest of them will have auto-action and point to a different menu.

if you basically understand whats happening, and how to emulate it, then have a quick go with real or dummy files, make it very rough if you want, cause when you get it into action once, you'll find it not all that hard (try in dvdmaestro first).

Enf...

[Arky]

Yeah, sorry about that Ekin, I shouldn't have rushed my answer so much. It was only after I got to work and mulled it over, that I realised some of what I said was, perhaps, slightly illogical, or difficult to understand (it was all perfectly clear in my own head! lol). That'll teach me to only answer when I am NOT rushing to get ready for work!

I hope auenf's clarification makes good sense to you. Essentially, as we've both said, it's not particularly difficult - it's more a conceptual issue. Once you've grasped the fact that it's mostly an illusory technique, rather than an authoring tour-de-force, you will see it's very easy to achieve :)


Arky ;o)

[Ekin]

Ok guys I think I understand now. Correct me if I am wrong ok. Let say I have 3 songs. And I am making 3 different menus with each having 10 sec of the 3 songs as background or on the right. And on menu1 I would have 3 buttons, default on button 1 and the 10sec of the first song is playing on the right side. Button 2 and Button 3 is "auto-action" right ?? So when the user navigate down the "auto-action" would kick in and play menu2 with it's 10sec on the right and also default on button2. And same thing would go for button3. Because when I navigate from button2 down to button3 "which is "auto-action" so as soon as button3 is activate. My menu3 would kick in and playing it's 10sec for the 3rd songs. So on menu3 button3 as default, from there I can assign or target it to the actual song as chapter3 on the timeline ??? :D :D :D :D I think I get it now... I am so :D :D :D ;)

[Arky]

Yes, that is correct :)

Just remember that (as I see it (but auenf/easy2bcheesy, please step in and correct me if you spot a flaw in my logic)), the very first menu never actually DIRECTLY works with a deliberately pressed button - all it does is auto-action to the second menu (which contains button 1 as default highlight, with it's appropriate stream playing in the right hand side of the screen). Now, on this second menu, button 1 has no auto-action - it actually takes you PROPERLY to the desired video, but ONLY if you deliberately PRESS (i.e. "execute" the button). Buttons 2 and 3, on this second menu are auto-actioned to take you to their own, respective, menus. So if you were in menu 2 and you moved the cursor over button 1, it would not actually do anything automatically. If you moved the cursor over button 2, however, it would take you (invisibly to the viewer, of course) to your third menu. Also, on this second menu, if you moved the cursor to button 3 (without ever moving it to button 2 first), the auto-action would invisibly take you to your fourth menu. The reason why I believe you must have the preliminary menu number 1, is that without it, I do not see how you could properly select #full-length# Video Stream Number 1. I can't say this 100%, but I've certainly bever noticed that a menu button could possibly have both an auto action to one command, and a deliberately-executable (i.e. manually-executable) action to an alternative command. Or have I been over-complicating my authoring life in past projects? :D

SO, if my own brand of twisted logic serves me correctly(?):


MENU 1) ALL buttons are auto-actioned to 'invisibly' go to their relevant menus.

MENU 2) Button 1 is highlighted by default, and has Video number 1 already playing on the right hand side of the screen. This button 1 has no auto-action - it links properly (i.e. in the standard way, to the actual full length Video number 1 - in other words, it will play the full-length movie 1, but only if you manually execute the button 1. Button 2 is auto-actioned to go to menu 3. Button 3 is auto-actioned to go to menu 4.

MENU 3) Button 2 is highlighted by default, and has Video number 2 already playing on the right hand side of the screen. This button 2 has no auto-action - it links properly (i.e. in the standard way, to the actual full length Video number 2 - in other words, it will play the full-length movie 2, but only if you manually execute the button 2. Button 1 is auto-actioned to go to menu 2. Button 3 is auto-actioned to go to menu 4.

MENU 4) Button 3 is highlighted by default, and has Video number 3 already playing on the right hand side of the screen. This button 3 has no auto-action - it links properly (i.e. in the standard way, to the actual full length Video number 3 - in other words, it will play the full-length movie 3, but only if you manually execute the button 3. Button 1 is auto-actioned to go to menu 2. Button 2 is auto-actioned to go to menu 3.


This technique is easy enough, but it is very important that you take the time to very carefully consider other elements of your menu navigation, or you will find you have run rings around yourself and can't get back to where you want to go! :D (I may even have made a mistake with my navigation in the above description, to tell you the truth (although I hope not)- the only way to be sure is to get stuck in and when you have done the above, check the project using Maestro's navigation Simulator). Good luck, and please let us know how you get on! :cool:


Arky ;o)

[Ekin]

Arky thanks for clearing up things. I sure will do that ASAP. I have the next 2 weeks off from work so I have all the time in the world to work on it. I am doing a wedding VHS capturing to DVD-R. So I sure will post my results when I am done.

P.S. I am gonna do my project in Maestro. But I was wondering if Scenarist have the same options as in "invisible" and "auto-action" ?? or even more and better options. I don't know Scenarist. I am trying to learn using the guide here, but stuck at the part where I import in my menus. Scenarist suppose to ask me what it is like "still menu, motion, ect.." but it didn't so I am stuck. So I quit on that program like months ago... :rolleyes: So if Scenarist have those options and more of those nicelittle options for menu, then I would go back into learning it.

[Arky]

Although it may use different descriptions, and/or methods, let me assure you that there is NOTHING that Maestro can do which Scenarist can't.

oh, EXCEPT for one thing (there's just ALWAYS an exception to the rule, isn't there?!) :rolleyes:

The one thing that Maestro can do, which Scenarist can't, is make your life easier! Scenarist is fantastic, but it's also a slippery slope to frustration. For the time-being, I recommend you stick with Maestro. I advise most newcomers to do this, because you can build up confidence and experience using Maestro, which you can subsequently take forward with you when you attempt to learn Scenarist. Aside from the peculiarities of each of these programs, many of the fundamental techniques (such as the one which you have made the topic of this thread) are relevant regardless of which program you are authoring with, so please do not be concerned that you are "wasting your time" learning Maestro if you intend to go for Scenarist in the longrun. I feel very strongly that this simply isn't the case at all. Other examples of cross-transferable techniques include creation of subtitle graphics in Photoshop, creation of animated backdrops for menus, using, for example, After Effects (see the sticky at the top of the Advanced DVD Authoring Forum, if you haven't already done so), and refining the art of MPEG encoding itself! None of these skills will be made redundant by swapping from one program to another at a later date, and I daresay that even if you do swap to Scenarist, you will more than likely continue to use Maestro in Tandem with it (for seperate individual projects, though, I mean). Maestro will always come in handy whenever there is a tight deadline.

Maestro does 95% of the DVD spec, and with remarkable ease. Easy2bCheesy uses Conductor+PowerPack (which is almost identical to Maestro, except for stuff like Macrovision and CSS implementation) on a professional basis, and he will tell you that there is very little need to tackle Scenarist unless you are doing serious hardcore (and I MEAN hardcore) authoring (see, for instance: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37074&highlight=animated ). One example where Maestro scores over Scenarist in terms of usability, is the glorious ease with which it lets you use "playlists". Scenarist can do the same, but in a much less intuitive manner.


Arky ;o)

[auenf]

Originally posted by Arky
Ythe very first menu never actually DIRECTLY works with a deliberately pressed button - all it does is auto-action to the second menu (which contains button 1 as default highlight, with it's appropriate stream playing in the right hand side of the screen).

actually, that 'first menu' you speak of is basically redundant, and unless you have a 'main menu' or 'next page' somewhere on the page, there is no reason why you shouldnt just have the 3 (for 3 buttons).

if you have main menu and first page, you only have to create 1 extra menu, unless you want to make them move when they have 'focus' ;)

Enf...

[gov]

i need the best s/ware i can get to make menus? can anybody point me in the right direction


gov

[Arky]

Originally posted by auenf
actually, that 'first menu' you speak of is basically redundant, and unless you have a 'main menu' or 'next page' somewhere on the page, there is no reason why you shouldnt just have the 3 (for 3 buttons).

if you have main menu and first page, you only have to create 1 extra menu, unless you want to make them move when they have 'focus' ;)

Enf...

True, but your suggestion would mean that the first menu would already have video stream 1 playing, doesn't it? Nothing wrong with that at all - my "semi-redundant" menu No.1 was in an effort to have no default button-highlighting, and nothing at all playing in the right hand side of the screen until the user moved the cursor over a button. If you don't mind video stream No.1 already playing when you arrive at the first menu, then fine - 3 menus will do the trick, and you can dispense with the primary menu I described originally. Just a matter of taste, really.


Arky ;o)

[Arky]

Originally posted by gov
i need the best s/ware i can get to make menus? can anybody point me in the right direction


gov

Well, you don't say whether you wish to create still or animated menus :confused:

If you wish to create still menus, then your best option is Adobe Photoshop, particularly as many high-end DVD authoring applications are able to understand Photoshop dual-layer files, which makes menu creation a little more convenient.

If you wish to create animated motion menus, perhaps as described in this thread, for example, then you have many options. See the sticky at the top of this forum for discussion on methods using Premiere or Cinestream Non-Linear Editors (NLE's):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27176

Sonic Foundry's Vegas Video would also be good for the job.

All of these NLE's will give you good results, but if you really want the absolute highest quality rendering for animated compositions, then you would need to look a little higher up the software tree to something like Adobe After Effects, Discreet Combustion, Pinnacle Commotion, or Boris FX / Boris Red. These have greater control, and give finer control on a sub-pixel level. Pinnacle Edition (NLE) lies somewhere in between these compositing applications, and the NLEs I mentioned beforehand, in so much that it does not offer as much control as the compositing applications, but it offers better rendering than the aforementioned NLE's, because it renders on the sub-pixel level, which means that slow movements (for example slow title crawls) are rendered with greater smoothness of movement. As simple as Premiere is to use for basic compositing, I have personally witnessed how juddery it's motionpath-movement can be with composites.
Having said that, for your first attempt, I still recommend following the tutorials for Premiere, provided in the above link. Once you've got what you need with Premiere, you can decide whether or not you are happy, or wish to improve upon your results with a specialised compositing application.


Arky ;o)

[gov]

both would b great

gov

[Arky]

Originally posted by gov
both would b great

gov


Err, excuse me? Hang on a minute, are you asking me to supply you with the above programs? Please read this:

http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm


You will find information on the aforementioned programs at the following links:


h**p://www.sonicfoundry.com/download/step2.asp?DID=363

h**p://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/main.html

h**p://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/main.html

h**p://www.discreet.com/products/cinestream

h**p://www.discreet.com/products/combustion

h**p://www.pinnaclesys.com/ProductPage.asp?Product_ID=561&Langue_ID=2
h**p://www.smartdv.co.uk/editiondv.htm

h**p://www.borisfx.com/products/RED/

h**p://www.VideoGuys.com


Arky.

[gov]

i'll take a look after

thanks again

gov
:D

[Ekin]

Arky: the links that u've listed for the programs that edit or make effect for videos right ? Well in your opinion which one is good ? What i mean in good is which one have more and good effects or even user friendly ??? I am currently using Vegas. I like that. I use that to make my motion menus. They have great effects and plugins. The only thing i wish they would have is to make video clips moving/flying across the screen or zoom out/in.....So what program is good ???

[Arky]

Originally posted by Ekin
Arky: the links that u've listed for the programs that edit or make effect for videos right ? Well in your opinion which one is good ? What i mean in good is which one have more and good effects or even user friendly ??? I am currently using Vegas. I like that. I use that to make my motion menus. They have great effects and plugins. The only thing i wish they would have is to make video clips moving/flying across the screen or zoom out/in.....So what program is good ???

Are you absolutely positive you can't create zooms and pans etc with your Vegas plugins? I don't have Vegas installed at the moment, so I can't check, but I recall those PIP plugins being pretty damned decent, as far as NLE's go...

Vegas is a solid program and offers more compositing options (I'm talking about the standard installation, not taking into account any 3rd party plugins) than many other NLEs. If you like it, and find it easy to achieve the results you require, then my advice is to stick with it. As I pointed out above, it's very much a case of "horses for courses". You cannot expect an NLE to do everything a specialised compositing app would do, just as you wouldn't expect a specialised compositing app to do everything an NLE can do. If you get to the stage where Vegas Video actually fails to fulfil your compositing requirements, then that would be the time to look a little higher to a specialised compositing app, for your requirements.

All of the above links point to decent programs, each with their strong points, or I'd never have listed them in the first place.

Adobe After Effects is the industry standard for specialised compositing, and is incredibly flexible and powerful. It is also well-supported by many third-party plugin developers. On the downside, it is hardly what I'd describe as 'intuitive'.

I tried Combustion about 18months ago, and I must admit, I didn't get on with it, even though it is a full-calibre serious program which offers respectable competition to After Effects (there's some really cool screenshots on the homepage link I provided above!).

Perhaps your best option might be Boris FX. The reason I say this is that, IMHO, it is slightly more intuitive than either of the above, and scores highly in the sense that it can be used as a plugin for virtually any NLE (and yes, that includes Vegas Video). This offers you the advantage that you do not first have to render your Vegas project/footage before compositing it in Boris FX. Thus, you can avoid an extra render, which means you save time, HDD space, and image quality. There again, After Effects has more tutorials on the web. Up to you! Please also note that Pinnacle Edition has an "X-send-to" function, which allows you to re-direct your Edition timeline project to After Effects, even though After Effects is operating as a standalone application. This solution is flippin excellent, but do bear in mind that it's not perfect - you can't export transitions and other plugin work from the Edition timeline using the X-send function. These would require you to create a "fused" file which requires some pre-rendering before it can be sent to After Effects. It's a compromise, and is worthwhile but not as all-encompassing as the Boris plugin solution, which works natively from 'any' NLE timeline, without any 'X-sending' or 'fusing' being required.

The one major caveat to all this compositing malarky is that it simply GUZZLES CPU power - even worse then MPEG encoding, and that's really saying something.

BTW, in case you happen to wonder - Boris RED is actually (Boris FX)+(Boris Graffiti)+(a few bits and bobs). Boris Graffiti is for fancy flying, and/or 3D titles. Any combination of these Boris products wil integrate seamlessly into your NLE, and can be invoked by looking in your plugins folder within the editing interface.

Finally, in terms of "more and good effects", as you put it, the sky is pretty-much the limit with either Boris RED, Discreet Combustion, or Adobe After Effects. I can ssure you that you are extremely unlikely to ever master all that any of these programs can offer you. They are all just so awesomely powerful and flexible that you'd have to be working at the bleeding edge of hollywood to outgrow them (for 2-dimensional video work, I mean - obviously the serious 3-D work is undertaken by the likes of 3ds max, Softimage XSI, Cinema 4D-XL, Houdini, etc.). I will just point out, however, that (as I see it) Combustion and Boris RED are (as standard installations) of a more self-contained nature than After Effects is. In other words, they are not inherently better than After Effects, but After Effects is designed expressly with third-party plugins more in mind, so you'd have to acquire a few third-party plugz, and install them, before After Effects offered as much as the standard installations of Boris and Combustion. This is either an advantage, or a disadvantage, depending on your personal viewpoint! All three have massive potential.


Arky ;o)

[Arky]

Just found a nice Boris RED review here:

h**p://www.macworld.com/2002/12/reviews/boris/index.html

The review is MAC-based, but that's irrelevant, since the software performs identically in the Windows Environment.


Arky ;o)

[Ekin]

First of I just want to let u guys know that I got my dream computer..well not the best one but hey it's pretty good...2.5Ghz 2.0Gig RAMBUS !!!!..and the best thing is..IT'S FREE !!!!well for the other good news is. OK I have followed all the suggestion on this thread and I've made my first DVD using the "auto-action" and "invisibile" option in Maestro. My DVD came out really good just like the way I wanted to...:D :D Everything falls into place, buttons connection are good, but I really have to kept my mind in place because after a while I kinda forgot where I want to link to...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: But anyways it came out great, Thanks everyody. I burned it on DVD-RW just incase i screw up on buttons connections. But then there are a couples of "pointers" I need help on:

1. The DVD plays good while auto play/"auto-action", but then there's a slightly pause for 1 sec. when I navigate from one buttons to another. The screen pause/jump for a second when navagation hits auto-action buttons..why ??? maybe because it's on a DVD+RW ? My Apex 5131 seems to have problems playing R/W's. It would play for an hour then it would freeze up or starts to get jumpy...

2.This question is not related to this thread but then I don't want to start another thread. Since you guys are helping me so please answere this one too ok.. I just need some pointers. Ok the menus that I am making are clips that I've captured my weddings. I used ATI AIW, VirtualdDub, Huffuv @ 720*480, PCM 48khz Stereo. And as we all know that capture videos looks interlace on our monitors, but it's fine after encode and play on TV. Here's my question. How come my encoded movie looks fine on TV, and my encoded menus looks "interlace" on TV.?? I use VirtualDub to cut out little clips and edit in VegasVideo. In VegasVideo I "render as" MPG using DVD template and in the advance option for Field Order I pick "Interlaced,bottom field first". I also tried "Interlace:top field" It still doesn't work. My video still have a little of interlacing. My second try was to "Render As" AVI in Vegas using Huffuv codec and encode it with TMPGenc. Still same thing. I tried all the settings in TMPG. Like int he settings ->Video tab ->Encode mode...I tried all three settings "Interlace, Non-Interlace, Inverse Pulldown". Nothing works !!... So can somebody give me some pointers on how to encode my edited videos in VegasVideo or how to encode my AVI from VegasVideo using TMPGenc. ?? Like the settings and encode mode and stuff. Thanks !!:D :D

[auenf]

Originally posted by Ekin
First of I just want to let u guys know that I got my dream computer..well not the best one but hey it's pretty good...2.5Ghz 2.0Gig RAMBUS !!!!..and the best thing is..IT'S FREE !!!!well for the other good news is. OK I have followed all the suggestion on this thread and I've made my first DVD using the "auto-action" and "invisibile" option in Maestro. My DVD came out really good just like the way I wanted to...:D :D Everything falls into place, buttons connection are good, but I really have to kept my mind in place because after a while I kinda forgot where I want to link to...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: But anyways it came out great, Thanks everyody. I burned it on DVD-RW just incase i screw up on buttons connections. But then there are a couples of "pointers" I need help on:

im glad that we could help.

1. The DVD plays good while auto play/"auto-action", but then there's a slightly pause for 1 sec. when I navigate from one buttons to another. The screen pause/jump for a second when navagation hits auto-action buttons..why ??? maybe because it's on a DVD+RW ? My Apex 5131 seems to have problems playing R/W's. It would play for an hour then it would freeze up or starts to get jumpy...

a slight lag while the dvd player switches menus is expected, and might be exaggurated on burnt media, but i have no way to verify or back that up.

2.This question is not related to this thread but then I don't want to start another thread. Since you guys are helping me so please answere this one too ok.. I just need some pointers. Ok the menus that I am making are clips that I've captured my weddings. I used ATI AIW, VirtualdDub, Huffuv @ 720*480, PCM 48khz Stereo. And as we all know that capture videos looks interlace on our monitors, but it's fine after encode and play on TV. Here's my question. How come my encoded movie looks fine on TV, and my encoded menus looks "interlace" on TV.?? I use VirtualDub to cut out little clips and edit in VegasVideo. In VegasVideo I "render as" MPG using DVD template and in the advance option for Field Order I pick "Interlaced,bottom field first". I also tried "Interlace:top field" It still doesn't work. My video still have a little of interlacing. My second try was to "Render As" AVI in Vegas using Huffuv codec and encode it with TMPGenc. Still same thing. I tried all the settings in TMPG. Like int he settings ->Video tab ->Encode mode...I tried all three settings "Interlace, Non-Interlace, Inverse Pulldown". Nothing works !!... So can somebody give me some pointers on how to encode my edited videos in VegasVideo or how to encode my AVI from VegasVideo using TMPGenc. ?? Like the settings and encode mode and stuff. Thanks !!:D :D

not sure exactly what you mean, but it could be one of a couple of things (or all of em ;))

- using a captured still from the movie as a still menu background: you need to remove one field (BOB) otherwise the background will appear to 'shimmer' between two frames.

- using an interlaced clip resized small shows some combing: remove a field (BOB) or such should get rid of this too :)

Enf...

[slk001]

The jump between menus is not seamless, so a slight stutter is to be expected. You can see this on commercial DVD's, too, but they design their menus so that it is not really noticeable.

[Ekin]

auenf: uhhh...this sound stupid but what is (BOB)? and how do I remove it from my little 20sec avi that I've cut out from the main captured movie ?? How do I remove it in VegasVideo? I used a .bmp as the background and the 20sec avi as a menu window. So how do I remove that BOB thing...???


-oh so i guess i am stuck with that 1sec lag between menus huh...oh well...but the professional DVD don't have that long lag...it's barely noticeable...but my DVD+RW is noticeable....oh well !!!:cool:

[auenf]

Originally posted by Ekin
auenf: uhhh...this sound stupid but what is (BOB)? and how do I remove it from my little 20sec avi that I've cut out from the main captured movie ?? How do I remove it in VegasVideo? I used a .bmp as the background and the 20sec avi as a menu window. So how do I remove that BOB thing...???

uhh, BOB's you're uncle...

;)

http://doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm

scroll down to 'de-interlacing', of course after you double the frame rate, you'll have to remove half of them (every second one actually) to make it compliant.

-oh so i guess i am stuck with that 1sec lag between menus huh...oh well...but the professional DVD don't have that long lag...it's barely noticeable...but my DVD+RW is noticeable....oh well !!!:cool:

the lag might be longer on burnt media (the laser takes a little longer to focus or something).

Enf...