Force Film/Pulldown Causes Vertical Pan Jitter

[d62ks821]

Encoding NTSC Film DVD to SVCD I have noticed that video segments which pan in vertical direction have significant, noticeable jitter. This is not the case for horizontal pan, or non panning segments. To investigate the cause of this I have tried several experiments. Among these are:

1) If I gerry rig DVD2SVCD in order to skip the pulldown.exe step, them I do not get vertical pan jitter. (Of course I have other problems, like the video playing back 25% too fast and ahead of the audio, but then this was only an experiment to see if the jitter would go away, and it did!!!)

2) If I select FORCE FILM off, and do not deinterlace the result, then I do not get vertical pan jitter. (Of course, my resultant SVCD is needlessly interlaced, and requires 25% more frames to encode, but then again, this was only an experiment to see if the jitter would go away, and again it did!!!)

3) I am certain this is not a field ordering problem. As an experiment, I have reverse fields resulting in any/all motion jittering badly.

I am wondering if the is just an artifact of the way my APEX 660 DVD player is doing playback time pulldown. OR is there something more basic I am missing.

Any ideas? Anyone? Thanks.

[markrb]

I have had no issues with jitter and my Apex or Pioneer units with NTSC video.

Have you tried other source DVD's?
What DVD are you trying to do? If I have it I will look at the settings I think is right for it.

You mention de-interlace. Are you forcing a de-interlace on material that doesn't need it, maybe?

Do you have DVD2AVI set on automatic and are not forcing a way of acting?

Try another DVD as you would normally and if you get the same results post your log file.

Mark

[d62ks821]

Thanks for you post. I will try to address your responses one at a time. I am an advanced user, and understand video pretty well, but looking to understand what is happening here.

>I have had no issues with jitter and my Apex or Pioneer units with NTSC video.

This is a suttle issue which is possible to see on nearly everything I have encoded. Can not see the problem in movies without vertical panning sequences. And not easily seen on non-animated movies. But, is easily seen in animated movies which have vertical panning sequences, but undetectable in non-vertical panning sequences.

>Have you tried other source DVD's?

Yes, several.

>What DVD are you trying to do? If I have it I will look at the settings I think is right for it.

No specific DVD. But all are non interlaced, NTSC film.

>You mention de-interlace. Are you forcing a de-interlace on material that doesn't need it, maybe?

NO. However, for the purpose of experiment, as mentioned previously, I have set Force Film = off, and then process normally, no deinterlace. Of course, this results in an interlaced SVCD, but that is what I was intending for the purpose of experimentation. When I do this, the resultant SVCD does not jitter on vertical panning sequences.

>Do you have DVD2AVI set on automatic and are not forcing a way of acting?

I normally have Force Film = automatic. And this has alway resulted in force film for the DVD's I have done.

>Try another DVD as you would normally and if you get the same results post your log file.

I'm not so sure this is going to be much help to you but here is an example of a recent DVD I have done. Unfortunately, this particular DVD has little to no vertical panning, but at least you can see how I set it up...

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/10/2002 10:16:00 PM
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.0.9 build 3
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/10/2002 10:16:05 PM
- DVD2AVI
--------------------------------------------------------
Creating DVD2AVI INI file:
- E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.INI

Variable settings:
iDCT_Algorithm: 32-bit SSE MMX

Executing DVD2AVI.
Executing DVD2AVI. Commandline:
"E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.exe" -CS=2 -YR=1 -EXIT -OF=[G:\monty\DVD2AVI_Project_file] -IF=[F:\monty\VTS_01_1.vob,F:\monty\VTS_01_2.vob,F:\monty\VTS_01_3.vob,F:\monty\VTS_01_4.vob,F:\monty\VTS_01_5.vob]
Analyzing DVD2AVI Project file
Force Film activated!
Framerate: 23976
DVD2AVI processing done.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/10/2002 10:21:54 PM
- Free on drive G: 27147.01 mb
- AUDIO Extraction
--------------------------------------------------------
Found AC3 stream id: 0x81
Filename: G:\monty\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Audio1 delay: 0 ms
Audio extraction finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/10/2002 10:25:55 PM
- Free on drive G: 26851.75 mb
- AUDIO conversion
--------------------------------------------------------

Converting Audio to MP2. Filename: G:\monty\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Executing BeSweet. Commandline:
"E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "G:\monty\Extracted_audio_1.ac3" -output "G:\monty\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "G:\monty\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -g max ) -2lame( -e -b 192 -m s )
Audio conversion of G:\monty\Extracted_audio_1.ac3 finished.

Audio conversion finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/10/2002 10:38:17 PM
- Free on drive G: 26725.20 mb
- Video Encoding using Cinema Craft
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/10/2002 10:45:21 PM
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.0.9 build 3
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/10/2002 10:45:28 PM
- Free on drive G: 26725.21 mb
- Crash Recovery
- Restarting from: Video encoding
--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/10/2002 10:45:33 PM
- Free on drive G: 26725.20 mb
- Video Encoding using Cinema Craft
--------------------------------------------------------

Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 1667869728
AudioSectors: 134703688
VideoPAPO: 23749560
ScanOffsetBytes: 159070
SeqAligningBytes: 10109757
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 8
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 1.00
PureMPEGStream: 1499147645.60
Seconds: 5537.78
CalcMPEGStream: 1499147645.60
Frames: 132558
CDSize: 800.00
Cut point 795.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 132558
Anti Noise Filter: Off
Passes: 5
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: Multipass VBR
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 3500
Avg. Bitrate: 2165
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (No borders, encoded as 4:3)

---AVS Begin---
LoadPlugin("E:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("G:\monty\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
BilinearResize(480,480,6,5,714,466)
ResampleAudio(44100)
----AVS End----

Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 1.590
Video Encoding finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/11/2002 5:38:18 AM
- Free on drive G: 25266.06 mb
- Video Pulldown
--------------------------------------------------------
Executing Pulldown. Commandline:
"E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\pulldown\pulldown.exe" "G:\monty\Encoded_Video_CCE_NTSC.mpv" "G:\monty\Pulldown_Encoded_Video_NTSC.mpv"
Video pulldown finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/11/2002 5:45:17 AM
- Free on drive G: 23839.33 mb
- Converting Pictures from ES to PS
--------------------------------------------------------
Saving bbMPEG settings: E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\default.ini
--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/11/2002 5:45:21 AM
- Free on drive G: 23839.32 mb
- Converting Pictures from ES to PS
--------------------------------------------------------
Saving bbMPEG settings: E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\default.ini
--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/11/2002 5:45:24 AM
- Free on drive G: 23839.32 mb
- Multiplexing and cutting
--------------------------------------------------------
Saving bbMPEG settings: E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\default.ini
Offset in Seconds: 2
Executing bbMPEG.
Variable Settings:
Movie offset: 2 seconds
Cut point: 795 mb

Executing RunbbMPEG. Commandline:
"E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\RunbbMPEG.exe" "G:\monty\bbMPEG_Muxed_File.mpg"
Length of G:\monty\bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg
2764 Seconds
Offset in Seconds: 2766
Executing bbMPEG.
Variable Settings:
Movie offset: 2 seconds
Cut point: 795 mb

Executing RunbbMPEG. Commandline:
"E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\bbMPEG\RunbbMPEG.exe" "G:\monty\bbMPEG_Muxed_File.mpg"
Multiplexing and cutting finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/11/2002 5:56:43 AM
- Free on drive G: 22249.64 mb
- Determining length of audio
--------------------------------------------------------
Analyzing: G:\monty\bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg
2768.544 seconds G:\monty\bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg
Analyzing: G:\monty\bbMPEG_Muxed_File01.mpg
2762.592 seconds G:\monty\bbMPEG_Muxed_File01.mpg
Analyzing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/11/2002 5:57:56 AM
- Free on drive G: 22249.64 mb
- Creating CD-Images using VCDXBuild
--------------------------------------------------------
- No. of chapters to create: 14

CD image #1: CD_Image_File_CD1.bin

Executing VCDXBuild. Commandline:
"E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\VCDImager\VCDXBuild.exe" --verbose --cue-file="G:\monty\CD_Image_File_CD1.cue" --bin-file="G:\monty\CD_Image_File_CD1.bin" "G:\monty\VCDXBuild_Script_1.xml"
--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/11/2002 6:02:31 AM
- Free on drive G: 21444.15 mb
- Creating CD-Images using VCDXBuild
--------------------------------------------------------
- No. of chapters to create: 15

CD image #2: CD_Image_File_CD2.bin

Executing VCDXBuild. Commandline:
"E:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\VCDImager\VCDXBuild.exe" --verbose --cue-file="G:\monty\CD_Image_File_CD2.cue" --bin-file="G:\monty\CD_Image_File_CD2.bin" "G:\monty\VCDXBuild_Script_2.xml"
CD-Image creation finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 10/11/2002 6:06:33 AM
- Free on drive G: 20638.10 mb
- SVCD Creation finished!
--------------------------------------------------------

[LeonMcNichol]

You mentioned animated movies. Could possibly force film be the problem. Because anime is almost always hybrid. Where you need to do IVTC. Have you tried IVTC yet? Could give it a shot and see.

[d62ks821]

It is not anime, but yes, I have tried IVTC. It makes no difference with respect to the jittering of vertical panning sequences. (NOTE: IVTC is the long way around since film->pulldown->IVTC effectively results in the same thing as force film, but with alot of unnecessary processing.)

I am certain force film is the correct way to process this. I have looked at both the input .avs and CCE output .mpv and step through the vertical panning sequence in question frame by frame. There are no repeated and no interlaced frames.

What is particularly interesting is that if I don't post process the CCE output .mpv with pulldown.exe, thus leaving it at 23.976fps without the pulldown flags set, then the resultant SVCD vertical panning sequences play very very smoothly, ...but of course this is no solution since the video plays 25% too fast and well ahead of the audio.

[markrb]

I noticed you are setting the max bitrate to 3500 are you sure your player can play this high of a bitrate?

Try to burn the pulldown_encoded.mpv and see if you can tell a difference between that and the muxed file. If you can this says there could be an issue with bbmpeg.

If not then I have some suggestions to try, but since there are many combinations I highly suggest you find a chapter off a DVD you know to be a problem and using a CDRW disc give the following a try. I can't say for sure if it will have any effect, but if you have the time it's worth a try.

1. Change DVD2AVI from 32-bit SSE MMX to IEEE-1080 reference. It is a little more precise, but will slightly slow your encode down. Most cannot tell the difference.

2. Try changing Image Quality Priority to 22-24

3. On the encoder tab click on advanced and this will bring up options for CCE. Uncheck them in various order and combinations.
Mostly the 1st and 4th. Do not check DVD compliant.

4. On that same advanced popup there is a checkbox for Intra-DC change that from auto to 8.

5. As a last resort try to do the video at it's full 29.976 fps. I think all you need to do is set FF on the DVD2AVI tab to off.


Good luck,
Mark

[d62ks821]

> I noticed you are setting the max bitrate to 3500 are you sure your player can play this high of a bitrate?

This could very likely be my problem. I will run some experiments tonight to try and verify whether or not dropping max to 2500 or so makes any difference.

>Try to burn the pulldown_encoded.mpv and see if you can tell a difference between that and the muxed file. If you can this says there could be an issue with bbmpeg.

I already tried this. My APEX 660 player will not list .mpv files on the disk. But perhaps I can trick it by naming them .mpg or .m2v or such. I will give it a try.

>1. Change DVD2AVI from 32-bit SSE MMX to IEEE-1080 reference...

Is this really the no. 1 thing to try? I suspect this will have little impact, but if I come up empty with all the other experiment, I will try it.

>2. Try changing Image Quality Priority to 22-24

I am currently at 17. I will try the higher values.

>3. On the encoder tab click on advanced and this will bring up options for CCE. Uncheck them in various order and combinations.
Mostly the 1st and 4th. Do not check DVD compliant.

I am certain there are more exeriments I could do here and I will. All I have done so far is play with upper frame first, progressive, and zigzag scanning order.

>4. ...checkbox for Intra-DC change that from auto to 8.

Already using 8.

>5. As a last resort try to do the video at it's full 29.976 fps...

I have already run this experiment, resulting in an interlaced SVCD. This does seem to reduce the vertical panning jitter, but does not entirely get rid of it. Probably about a 50% improvement.

[markrb]

Is this really the no. 1 thing to try? I suspect this will have little impact, but if I come up empty with all the other experiment, I will try it.

In terms of possibly being effective, maybe not. In terms of easy and it won't make it worse then yes. Basically it will either make it better or you won't notice a difference.

There really was no order. It was just a list as they hit my brain. I just wanted to seperate them.

Just rename the mpv to mpg. It should work I have used this on my Apex player before without issue.

I have already run this experiment, resulting in an interlaced SVCD. This does seem to reduce the vertical panning jitter, but does not entirely get rid of it. Probably about a 50% improvement.

I saw that you mentioned that you used IVTC. What I was saying was don't use anything. Just encode it without FF or IVTC.
Just clarifying.

Mark

[d62ks821]

I saw that you mentioned that you used IVTC. What I was saying was don't use anything. Just encode it without FF or IVTC.
Correct. This what I had done. ...and thanks for all your suggestions. I will have several things to try tonight, and hopefully will nail the problem.

[d62ks821]

No joy. I tried all the interation you suggested using a short segment, and still see the same thing.

- reduced speed to 2100 max, same.
- no different between Encoded_Video_CCE_NTSC.mpv, pulldown_encoded.mpv, or bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg
- 32-bit SSE MMX to IEEE-1080, same.
- Quality Priority to 22-24, same.
- Also tried every possible interation of pulldown.exe params, Same. ...except in some cases the video would play back 25% fast (i.e.,29.97 w/o pulldown) and the result is very smooth, but fast.

After all this, I sat back on the couch, 10 feet away from the 25" television, and at that distance the problem is much much less noticeable. ...I realized that I had always been within 1-2 feet of the TV previously, and at that close distance, the jitter is pronounced.

I've just about given up on this, unless you have anything else to suggest. Thanks for you help.

[mrbass]

I've done well over 50+ dvd rips having had the bottom field first (field B) and had no problem. That is a huge factor when doing mini-dv to prevent jitter or jerky video, but like I said it's worked 100% of the time with dvds too so I'd give that a shot.

sidenote: don't use IEEE-1180 to rip cuz of a possible bug.
http://arbor.ee.ntu.edu.tw/~jackei/dvd2avi/idctref/

[markrb]

I am just wondering since you are the first person to report this here if it isn't your DVD player, TV or a combination of the two.

If you can try playing a normal SVCD you create on another combination.

If this was a problem within DVD2SVCD I would have thought we would have had at least 1 report of this problem in the past.

I am not saying it can't be something within DVD2SVCD, but it just seems unlikely with the huge number of posts we get both from Newbies and Experts alike.

Mark

[Zot]

For whats it's worth, whe I encode an NTSC DVD with DVD2SVCD, and leave force film auto, no deinterlace, I get jitter too. Deinterlacing seems to fix the problem, but it takes forever. I've got an Apex 1500 and Film SVCD's come off without a hitch; NTSC's have always given me problems.

Zot