OGM and AC3 doesn't seem to work.

[inoteb]

Originally posted by BlackSun
It's not really player related, even if we can fix it a bit by cheating a bit, but related to the OggDS. I'm not too kind of creating some hacks to fix things, anyway I'll discuss about this with Tobias which is working very hard on the next OggDS and also on The Core Media Player.
Hey BlackSun, glad to see you take an interest in this annoying issue (at last :p ;)) and it would be great that Tobias try to fix it. As for me AC3+OtherAudioTrack muxing is the major issue of OggMedia... (Hope MCF AC3 support will be better :p ).
As for TCMP, sometimes a little hack is better than nothing : It's bugging me to be forced to use ZP to play some of my OggMedias while I use TCMP for (almost) everything else :D

[Suiryc]

Originally posted by pirata
Should I understand that all the features of your own VDub OGM capable mod have been transferred to VirtualDubMod? (with all the bug fixes done in the former?) In short: VirtualDubMod will work with OGMs as good or better than Cyrius VDub OGM?
Yes, since the beginning all OGM/PNG mods have been tranfered into VirtualDubMod. Since the first release of VDubMod new features / bug fixes have only been made in VDubMod.

There is one problem keeping me from using VDubMod, though: what happens with the "append AVI segment" menu item? It is grayed out! When will it be back? It is very useful.
Sure? It is greyed out when non available (i.e. for non AVI input), but for AVI files it should be available :confused:

Also, I'd like to make a feature request. VDub has always been able to open MPEG1. Now it also reads MPEG2. There should be a way of saving that file types after some editing has been done (things like cutting, which don't need reencoding). Is that difficult to add I guess it would be coherent with the "swiss knife" idea.
Actually there are licensing issues with MPEG2 format ...
Moreover I don't know if any of the members of this project has enough knowledge about MPEG2 format to do so ...

By the way: I have read somewhere there is a way of knowing the actual size of the chunks you cut with VdubMod. How is it Cyrius?
It was one of the last features of VDubOGM ;)
At the bottom of the window there are information about the frame you are showing (frame number, time position, type of frame). I just added the position in file of this frame. This gives an estimation of what will be the final filesize when cutting : you go at the beginning of the selection, note the file position, then go to the end of the position, and make the difference :).

[pirata]

@Cyrius:
Sure? It is greyed out when non available (i.e. for non AVI input), but for AVI files it should be available


Yeah that' was it. It is not grayed out now that I loaded a AVI. Sorry.

Actually there are licensing issues with MPEG2 format ...
Moreover I don't know if any of the members of this project has enough knowledge about MPEG2 format to do so ...

You mean you can open MPEG2 but you cannot edit it anyhow or mux it? Goddamn licenses...
I guess there is no way to interface with some MPEG2-muxing tool (for instance, TMPGEnc), is there? Some kind of uncompressed frameserving, just for muxing with the client utility?

At the bottom of the window there are information about the frame you are showing (frame number, time position, type of frame). I just added the position in file of this frame. This gives an estimation of what will be the final filesize when cutting : you go at the beginning of the selection, note the file position, then go to the end of the position, and make the difference .

I saw it, but it works only with already generated OGMs. I guess it is impossible to do the file position guessing without creating first a huge OGM temporal file containing the whole movie. Anyway, it would be more useful to see a predicted file size for the chunk you want to cut at the muxing stage (when you mux avi with AC3-vorbis-mp3-srt...). Is that too dificult?

@Blacksun:

Playback is becoming a pain in the rear for me since AC3 was introduced in OGM. Freezes that force you to stand up, run to the computer and seek a bit are not rare. Even the unavoidable freezing at the movie beginning is more and more annoying. Please tell Tobias to improve a little bit AC3 support in the container. It would be a relief. By the way: do you know if there is any schedule for the next OggDS release?

Blacksun, I have always have a doubt about MCF. I read it somewhere but I cannot believe it: amy MPEG2/MPEG1 support in MCF? I mean, muxing MPEG2 or MPEG1 video with mp3 or vorbis audio or divx video with mp2 audio? I guess that's impossible both technically and from the licensing point of view...

[Suiryc]

Originally posted by pirata
You mean you can open MPEG2 but you cannot edit it anyhow or mux it? Goddamn licenses...
I guess there is no way to interface with some MPEG2-muxing tool (for instance, TMPGEnc), is there? Some kind of uncompressed frameserving, just for muxing with the client utility?
Well in fact reading too is subject to licensing issues :(
We are discussing about what to do for MPEG2 ...

I saw it, but it works only with already generated OGMs. I guess it is impossible to do the file position guessing without creating first a huge OGM temporal file containing the whole movie. Anyway, it would be more useful to see a predicted file size for the chunk you want to cut at the muxing stage (when you mux avi with AC3-vorbis-mp3-srt...). Is that too dificult?
If you compress video there is no way I can predict what will be the final size ;)
I may see if I can implement a "Save segmented OGM" ...

[pirata]

Stupid me: I meant some kind of COMPRESSED frameserving to a licensed MPEG2 capable tool, just for muxing on that tool. But I guess that simply editing an MPEG22 with VDub will be a licence issue already...

I hate corporations. They create bad software, give you bad support and they even want money for it (e.g. Microsoft's Windows will never -I repaeat- never, compare with Linux, for they design the program to make your PC slower and slower, forcing you to upgrade; however, Linux is developed to make your PC faster and faster...). And the worst of it is, as I read in PCMag, that we are only capable to talk to each other and claim how bad they are, while they are having lunches with politicians, making the laws bend at their command, just to assure their incomes forever. You see? I just got crazy again... anyway, WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING.

Back to the post: yeah, there is the possibility to have VDub split the output every time a certain file size is reached. In fact, it is all what we need. Ask Koepi if you should need help. He did it already in OggMux.

Go on boy. Your the boss.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by pirata
You mean you can open MPEG2 but you cannot edit it anyhow or mux it? Goddamn licenses...
Actually the opening/decoding is already substance to licensing costs, so we will investigate on the virtualdubmod-devl list again if we shouldnt exclude the MPEG2 decoder module to an external library somehow and ask nice people living in Brasil or China, or Doom9, to distribute it for us :D ..... Belgabor, Suiryc, Pulco-Citron and also myself are all living in Europe, where MPEG patents and copyrights are fully valid :( ..
I guess there is no way to interface with some MPEG2-muxing tool (for instance, TMPGEnc), is there? Some kind of uncompressed frameserving, just for muxing with the client utility?
MPEG2DEC.dll can do this for us, together with AVISynth. What exactly are you asking from vdubmod ? Should it be able to edit MPEG2 also ?
@Blacksun: Playback is becoming a pain in the rear for me since AC3 was introduced in OGM. Freezes that force you to stand up, run to the computer and seek a bit are not rare. Even the unavoidable freezing at the movie beginning is more and more annoying. Please tell Tobias to improve a little bit AC3 support in the container. It would be a relief. By the way: do you know if there is any schedule for the next OggDS release?
I still dont understand how AC3 support in OGM is done at all. Once i understand i can comment on this.
Blacksun, I have always have a doubt about MCF. I read it somewhere but I cannot believe it: amy MPEG2/MPEG1 support in MCF? I mean, muxing MPEG2 or MPEG1 video with mp3 or vorbis audio or divx video with mp2 audio? I guess that's impossible both technically and from the licensing point of view...
Actually, simply muxing of MPEG1/2 streams into MCF will be no subject to licensing cost, as we wont alter the data ( decode, etc. ) but only 'wrap' them in the MCF container. Its comparable to using WinZIP on it, without compression. Nobody will be able to ask the authors of WinZIP for licensing costs if its going to be used on an MPEG file, same goes with MCF in this case.
If someone will put an UCI interface into an MPEG2 encoder and thus create an externally linkable MPEG2 codec we will even be able to use it as a very normal compression methos, just like any MPEG4 codec, from VirtualdubMod. But i fail to see the sense in that, as there wont be hardware support for MCF for a long time, and once its going to happen MPEG4 will be a fixed part of every standalone for sure. So for MCF the ability to accept existing MPEG1/2 streams will probably be fully sufficient, and this is planned to come for the Dshow based MCF muxer.

[pirata]

Actually the opening/decoding is already substance to licensing costs, so we will investigate on the virtualdubmod-devl list again if we shouldnt exclude the MPEG2 decoder module to an external library somehow and ask nice people living in Brasil or China, or Doom9, to distribute it for us ..... Belgabor, Suiryc, Pulco-Citron and also myself are all living in Europe, where MPEG patents and copyrights are fully valid ..


I guess you are referring to MPEG2DEC.dll? Or you mean the MPEG2 decoding capabilities of Pulco-Citron's mod?

MPEG2DEC.dll can do this for us, together with AVISynth. What exactly are you asking from vdubmod ? Should it be able to edit MPEG2 also ?

It would be desirable to be able to cut & join MPEG2 mux/demux, accurate file information (header info)... but you can do that with TMPGEnc already, so don't worry. But I don think that MPEG2 audio/video support in MCF would be useful. Sometimes you get a movie with good MPEG2 video and bad audio, and there is a MP3 audio replacement for the audio that sounds sweet. You would transcode the video with DivX, but results could be nasty with respect to the original (I tried once to transcode Monsters Inc from SVCD to DivX because I only had a time-limited trial version of PowerDVD on my PC, and the output was crappy -maybe DivX is not fit for cartoons, but I did increment the bitrate a lot and results were still bad-).

Thus, I think that MCF would be a really cool if it was as open as possible. If it could accept the most important stream types, it would cover all needs. That's what is expectable from a really durable standard. Moreoever, you say there are no licence issues! There is only the technical layer, which could turn too complex if MPEG2 AV support was added. But if it is not so, please, INCLUDE MPEG2 SUPPORT.

But I guess you need more people demanding it to take MPEG2 into consideration, don't you? :-)

Pirata

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by pirata I guess you are referring to MPEG2DEC.dll? Or you mean the MPEG2 decoding capabilities of Pulco-Citron's mod?

I misunderstood. You edited yourself on this, you didnt mean decoding but demuxing. This part shouldnt be a problem from a licensing point, but i have to check first.

But I guess you need more people demanding it to take MPEG2 into consideration, don't you? :-) Pirata

No, not at all. MPEG2 video is planned for MCF as supported stream type, we even will give it a 'native' MCF ID ( not sure what actual specs say about it, i guess its 'MPEG2VIDEO' ). So there can be no doubt it will be possible to have MPEG2 in MCF, just the same as AC3.

[pirata]

I misunderstood. You edited yourself on this, you didnt mean decoding but demuxing. This part shouldnt be a problem from a licensing point, but i have to check first.

There are tools that allow mux/demux/cut/join of MPEG2, so don't care. Anyway, whatever support you add to VDubMod will make it even more useful.

I just thought of a new feature request that would be really useful: when getting a sound stream synched, you need to preview the delay you apply. It would be veeeeery useful to be able to do this with each OGM input (ac3, ogg and mp3 (vbr)). Once suiryc told me it was really hard to do. Now that you are 3 people at work, will you make it happen? (can you imagine how much time you will save us if you implement this? You don't always get perfectly synched movies, you already now this).

No, not at all. MPEG2 video is planned for MCF as supported stream type, we even will give it a 'native' MCF ID ( not sure what actual specs say about it, i guess its 'MPEG2VIDEO' ). So there can be no doubt it will be possible to have MPEG2 in MCF, just the same as AC3.

As far as I know, MPEG2 is also a container format. You mean that MCF will wrap the MPEG2 audio and video streams, removing the MPEG2 container, or will the container be still inside? Thus, will it be possible to have, for instance, MPEG2 video and mp3 audio?

[pirata]

I have news about freezing in OGM:

(where it is stated 'vorbis' it means always 2 or more vorbis streams)

-the freezing when the movie starts (timer counts but picture is black -the zplayer.exe process consumes no CPU time-; seeking is needed to defreeze), is due to having ac3 and vbr mp3 at the same time. I tested with and without vbr mp3, while keeping always 1 ac3 as first stream plus vorbis. The absence of vbr mp3 avoided the freezing. I also tested vorbis+vbr mp3 and vbr mp3 + vorbis, and there was no freezing, too.

-if you have ac3 as first track plus vorbis as second track, and play the movie with the second track selected, there is freezing at the beginning, too.

-the freezing when seeking or switching audio track happens when you have ogg vorbis plus ac3 or vbr mp3. I tested with ac3+vorbis and vorbis+vbr mp3, and in both cases seeking or switching track froze the movie. Only when having vorbis only, there was no problem.

Is somebody of you trying to fix this?

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by pirata As far as I know, MPEG2 is also a container format. You mean that MCF will wrap the MPEG2 audio and video streams, removing the MPEG2 container, or will the container be still inside? Thus, will it be possible to have, for instance, MPEG2 video and mp3 audio?

Yes, MPEG2 video with ANY audio ( MP3, Vorbis, etc. ) will be possible. The MPEG container will be parsed and only content will be muxed into MCF ...

[Suiryc]

Originally posted by pirata
Is somebody of you trying to fix this?
Hmm, for me those problems seem more OggDS related.
Maybe reporting this in the "OggDS bugs" thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33854) may catch the attention of Tobias and that he could give us some hints (whether or not it is a problem in OggDS or in our programs).

[pirata]

OK, I'll post it there.
By the way, divx video + vbr mp3 freezes in the beginnig (bkack picture and the timer doesn't run), and seeking is needed to defreeze, like in the other cases. There is one difference with the other cases, though. The timer remains at 00:00, instead of going on.

Something about the VirtualDubMod ogg-ac3-vbr mp3 synching preview feature I asked about?

[jurij]

Hi after all these talks what's the best way to mux together:

-video+ac3_1+ac3_2+srt_1+srt_2

or

-video+ac3_1+ogg vorbis_2+srt_1+srt_2

into a OGM file?

...and to playback it properly.... :)

Thanx.