DVD Games: Played Them

[easy2Bcheesy]

I posted something about this a few weeks back. A company called Zoo Interactive, who've previously made some pub quiz games have moved into the DVD market. They've got something called DVD Extra, which at its most basic, is essentially making full use of the DVD spec's buttons over video option.

I saw Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, and a Pepsi Chart Show quiz game, both aimed at the UK market.

Millionaire is brilliant - tons better than the crappy PC and PlayStation versions. Tons of video of the UK host, Chris Tarrant asking the questions (once you get past the £32,000 level I think)... tons of audio from him on the 'cheaper' questions. Lots of video shot straight from the Millionaire studio for added authenticity. It's extremely impressive. Pepsi is good too, just as impressive technically, but obviously not quite as tight as a concept as Millionaire.

The UK versions of both games are out in a couple of weeks and for the DVD author, it's really worth looking at. I gather that Zoo have developed their own authoring tool for making this kind of stuff easier, but I didn't see anything that couldn't be done with Maestro, or Scenarist if you really want to kill yourself!

How does it work? Allocate the questions between your many VTSes, each question on a chapter point, randomise a GPRM and jump to that chapter point. Add some nice subtitle work on the videos (ie big red crosses over lifelines you've already used, quite easily done for an expert, but still impressive to see) and you're pretty much there. I've done something very similar in Maestro, but I'd never tried anything on this scale. I'd be too worried about point 2 below!

I'm quite eager to take a look at the final disc. From a technical achievement it's truly excellent. I can't imagine a better version of Millionaire on DVD and it's a brilliant extension of the DVD spec. I have two concerns about it though:

1. Is the random number generator a part of the DVD spec?
I have noticed that many DVD players react to random number programming in a different way. My Pioneer 444 is brilliant, but WinDVD is not random at all - every time you start the software player, it pumps out the same random numbers. I can think of a couple of ways around this. I hope Zoo did too or there'll be some very samey games taking place on some people's players!! Of course I'm just used to Spruce, so maybe their random number generator is coded by themselves and my observations about the above doesn't hold true. Suspect I'm right though and am quite curious about it!

2. DVD compatibility
Jam a VTS with that much programming and some players, particularly ones using the early Wharfdale 750 chipset for example (hello PS2!) are liable to fall over, I would imagine. I'm sure Zoo did a feasibility study, but I wouldn't like to put my money on it!! There are 1,400 questions on there. That's 1,400 * 8 buttons. In fact, it's actually 2,800 * 8 buttons because obviously each Millionaire question has the 50-50 option too.

Any way, as I said, it's out soon. I recommend all serious DVD authors should buy a copy. It will really open your eyes as to what is possible with the DVD spec - it's much more than just a video playback device, with a bit of imagination!

[mpucoder]

Yes, the random number generator is part of the DVD spec, it is one of the 11 functions built into the virtual machine. (The others are mov, swap, add, subtract, multiply, divide, modulo, and, or, xor.)
I don't see why the overall complexity of the disk would matter, the player just deals with one menu at a time. As long as it's authored correctly, shouldn't matter.

[easy2Bcheesy]

I've had one almost disastrous case in the past where a DVD didn't work on PS2, and it also didn't work on the Wharfdale 750 (why I chose that example). I just had way too much going on in the menu system - close to 1,200 buttons I think. Once I reduced this number (by using buttons over video and shunting some of the menus into VTSes) everything worked fine.

[rubic42]

Wow, what did you ever need 1200 buttons for?

[easy2Bcheesy]

I had a database with over 200 entries (200 menus). Each menu had about 5-6 buttons that interlinked between the menus. Do the math!

It *should* work, it compiled just fine in Maestro. And it worked on my Pioneer 444 player and my Sony DVP725. But everything went wrong on PS2 (driver versions 1.20 and 1.30, worked fine on 2.0) and the Wharfdale 750. I'd imagine similar problems would occur on some of the shittier/older players.

MPUcoder is right in that each menu is loaded individually. But I have not read DVD Demystified, so this is just guesswork. But what I'm guessing is that the DVD player holds a "roadmap" of jumps and command sequences in memory and if things get too large for whatever memory it has, everything goes down the toilet.

That's why I'm a bit worried about these DVD games which cram tons of jumps, command sequences and all manner of other stuff into each VTS. There's some players out there that have a very loose interpretation of the DVD spec...

[auenf]

Originally posted by easy2Bcheesy
That's 1,400 * 8 buttons. In fact, it's actually 2,800 * 8 buttons because obviously each Millionaire question has the 50-50 option too.

would they have used separate menus for the 50-50, or did they use black spots to hide the non-selectable ones?

MPUcoder is right in that each menu is loaded individually. But I have not read DVD Demystified, so this is just guesswork. But what I'm guessing is that the DVD player holds a "roadmap" of jumps and command sequences in memory and if things get too large for whatever memory it has, everything goes down the toilet.

a dvd player would have to create a roadmap of where it goes cause of the 'back' button, (not sure if it steps back a menu, or is definable per menu)

just thinking about it, the actual authoring of the disc is only hard cause there is so much on there, the basic principles of each question and button over video isnt all that hard (we are in the advanced forum after all), but the sheer scale of it would be a horror for debugging.

who wants to take bets of how many slipups are in there? if its error free, these guys deserve twice the money they are asking, or they made a small thousand just to test navigation :)

Enf...

[mpucoder]

The back button is handled by the "goup" link in the menu's PGC, so there is no limit on the depth of menues.
I think the real problem with earlier players was simply the rush to market. Not enough time spent on testing the more difficult issues. (First someone would have to author a hideous test).
The only tables that grow large with games are the title, chapter, and PGC program list. Even they have limits (the number 99 appears very often) that allow for fixed buffer allocation.
I never thought the problem was that difficult, but then again, I've been programming microprocessors for over 30 years. Some things seem elementary after that much time.
On the bright side, those players should be reaching their end of life soon, so I don't see why authors should restrict themselves. (And don't get me started on ps2, if you want to play games, fine, but watch your DVD on a DVD player)

[easy2Bcheesy]

Originally posted by auenf


would they have used separate menus for the 50-50, or did they use black spots to hide the non-selectable ones?

Definitely a different menu, because the button links are different. Say you select 50-50 and A and C are eliminated, you can no longer select them.



just thinking about it, the actual authoring of the disc is only hard cause there is so much on there, the basic principles of each question and button over video isnt all that hard (we are in the advanced forum after all), but the sheer scale of it would be a horror for debugging.

who wants to take bets of how many slipups are in there? if its error free, these guys deserve twice the money they are asking, or they made a small thousand just to test navigation :)


According to Zoo's press release, they're written their own authoring tool which they've patented (!) and it seems to make all the command sequences and jumping about a lot simpler. Bugtesting all the jumps wouldn't be too difficult - just set your first play to the VTS-Chapter point and then go through all the permutations. With Millionaire that's just trying the four questions and using up the lifelines.

You are right - for the advanced DVD author, there is no new principal here whatsoever. Their paperwork goes on at length about how current authoring tools can't do this, but I honestly can't see anything in any of these games that could not be done in Maestro with a bit of skill and imagination. I can imagine it being just too complex for Scenarist, but jumping around VTSes and accessing the command sequences isn't that tough at all in Spruce. The only issue would be the complexity issues I referred to earlier overloading certain players. Having being burned once with that, I wouldn't want to again.

It's all very well saying PS2 is a shit DVD player (although version 2.10 of the driver software is by and large very stable), but alas it's shifted millions of units and as a part of the potential customer base cannot be ignored.

[rubic42]

Just curious and a little off-topic, but I haven't used Spruce or DVDMaestro before. I was wondering if there were any ways of authoring a DVD in these programs without going through the GUI. If there are a lot of links and connections between different items, then what I've found with Scenarist is that it leads to a lot of repetitive clicking and typing, which can strain the hands and wrists.

The good thing about Scenarist is that it can import or cut/paste scripts that define your project. This way if you can generate a lot of objects automatically using a program to generate the script definitions and then pasting it into the Scenarist project. Saves a lot of time and worry about making sure all your hand-made connections are set up properly.

Does DVDMaestro have the same ability to read in a script, or automate creating links, etc?

Also where you say:
jumping around VTSes and accessing the command sequences isn't that tough at all in Spruce
Does Spruce automatically set up dummy PGCs in the video manager domains for you to be able to do a lot of jumping around VTSs?

[easy2Bcheesy]

Essentially I think the answer is "yes". It says something for the power of the GUI that I can confidently say I could do that Millionaire game on Maestro and yet I don't really understand what you mean by dummy PGCs. I come from the completely opposite end of the scale. I set up a DVD studio that needed to produce professional results really quickly. So I bought Maestro after reading through both Maestro and Scenarist manuals. Both seemed to produce nigh-on identical results, one was much easier to understand.

Maestro has movies and menus. You just make a button and point it to another movie, or a menu - or a command sequence. It's that simple. Command sequences open up pretty much all the functions of MPUcoder called, I think, the virtual machine. So all your logic, conditional jumps, mucking about with GPRMs - all that can be done too. And if you really want to (and I regularly do) then you can stick buttons on top of your video and add menu-like functionality.

Automating scripts? You can create copies of menus, movies and command sequences and just adjust the links. Very very simple. As mentioned earlier, I had a 200 hundred entry database, with over 1,200 buttons - each database entry was on a template and I'd just copy it and change the assets and the links to create a new entry.

The purist in me really wants me to learn Scenarist, but at the same time, the commercial realist in me says "why bother?" - I've yet to find any real life application for DVD that Maestro can't handle, including these DVD games.

[easy2Bcheesy]

Got the Millionaire game, had a good look. As I suspected, the random factor in the questions isn't 100% random. Playing the game on WinDVD brings up the same questions every time you re-start the app.

I still recommend that all serious DVD authors (in the UK!) should have a look at it... it's very good.

[Arky]

Originally posted by easy2Bcheesy
The purist in me really wants me to learn Scenarist, but at the same time, the commercial realist in me says "why bother?" - I've yet to find any real life application for DVD that Maestro can't handle, including these DVD games.


You spoke my mind. ;)


Arky ;o)

[auenf]

Originally posted by easy2Bcheesy
The purist in me really wants me to learn Scenarist, but at the same time, the commercial realist in me says "why bother?" - I've yet to find any real life application for DVD that Maestro can't handle, including these DVD games.

well, those animated subpictures are one ;)

Originally posted by easy2Bcheesy
Got the Millionaire game, had a good look. As I suspected, the random factor in the questions isn't 100% random. Playing the game on WinDVD brings up the same questions every time you re-start the app.

I still recommend that all serious DVD authors (in the UK!) should have a look at it... it's very good.

without a proper random in the player, there isnt really possible in the dvd spec, but its suprising that intervideo has that problem.

i might have to look for that disc, im guessing its region encoded to 2 or 2&4?

Enf...

[Arky]

Originally posted by auenf
well, those animated subpictures are one ;)

TRUE! :p


Originally posted by auenf
without a proper random in the player, there isnt really possible in the dvd spec, but its suprising that intervideo has that problem. [/B]

Intervideo has MANY problems, in my experience. It's a very nice software player, don't get me wrong, and I actually LIKE it, but I gave up proofing my projects with it long ago.


Originally posted by auenf
i might have to look for that disc, im guessing its region encoded to 2 or 2&4?
Enf... [/I]

easy2bcheesy would know better than me, but since the nature of the content means that it's culturally-specific in many respects, authoring it for different regions would require far more than just a change in encoding standards. If you have any difficulty getting hold of a copy (region issues not withstanding) just let me know and I'll see if I can help out. I really can't see that you'd have any difficulty with ordering it across the globe from a UK retailer, though. "Play" are pretty good, in my experience.


Arky ;o)

[easy2Bcheesy]

Originally posted by auenf
well, those animated subpictures are one ;)

I stand by what I said, by and large. The animated subpictures in Spider-Man are technically very interesting, but the implementation is rubbish - it's tough to see what you are actually highlighting.

Originally posted by Arky
easy2bcheesy would know better than me, but since the nature of the content means that it's culturally-specific in many respects, authoring it for different regions would require far more than just a change in encoding standards. If you have any difficulty getting hold of a copy (region issues not withstanding) just let me know and I'll see if I can help out. I really can't see that you'd have any difficulty with ordering it across the globe from a UK retailer, though. "Play" are pretty good, in my experience.

Zoo have European rights to Millionaire, I believe and will be producing versions for most of the major territories. But you can order the UK DVD from play.com and should be able to export it anywhere in Europe...

h**p://www.playserver2.com/play247.asp?page=title&r=R2&title=108950


Originally posted by auenf
without a proper random in the player, there isnt really possible in the dvd spec, but its suprising that intervideo has that problem.

Basically Millionaire is calling for random numbers at the same point, and coming back with the same numbers. You can get around this easily. On the intro videos, put in an invisible button every half second or so. Put a new chapter point in every half second, with a new button. Then when the ENTER button is pressed, read off the chapter number in memory and generate a loop that creates this amount of random numbers. That said, most DVD players don't have the problem that the software DVD players do...

[auenf]

Originally posted by Arky

Intervideo has MANY problems, in my experience. It's a very nice software player, don't get me wrong, and I actually LIKE it, but I gave up proofing my projects with it long ago.

interesting you should say that, Canopus Amber for DVD comes bundled with WinDVD to test the dvd before premastering, and i have a few problems with it too. but virtuoso doesnt do too much advanced stuff, so its not work replacing it.

easy2bcheesy would know better than me, but since the nature of the content means that it's culturally-specific in many respects, authoring it for different regions would require far more than just a change in encoding standards. If you have any difficulty getting hold of a copy (region issues not withstanding) just let me know and I'll see if I can help out. I really can't see that you'd have any difficulty with ordering it across the globe from a UK retailer, though. "Play" are pretty good, in my experience.

harry potter is another culturally-specific title, and for some reason australia is the only place that only gets 4:3 version of it, someone must have been bored at wb.

the cutural specific bit doesnt bother me, and regions dont usually either, the cost will be the big problem, the poor aussie dollar is almost worth as little as the yen (trust me, theres still a fair way to go).

14.99 British Pound = 42.53767 Australian Dollar

for comparison, Episode 2 (being released today actually) is RRP AUD45.50, but can be had for 39 easily.

altho after saying that, i see its on that site for RRP GBP24.99.

ouch.

Enf...