Telecide () and compressibility test

[Swan]

I've run into a movie that needs to be IVTC:ed. Checking the movie, frame by frame, tells me I can't use "Force Film" in DVD2Avi.

I'd like to perform a compressibility test using GordianKnot, with
TemporalSmoother(2,1)
set before
crop(10,2,698,476)

If I try to view the .avs in MediaPlayer or do a comp check with the settings Gordian automatically sets, I get an Avisynth Access Violation. I checked the forums (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17376&perpage=20&highlight=telecide%20temporalsmoother&pagenumber=2) and found the info to be correct. When I edit the script manually, it works.
I want to use Inverse Telecine and apply TemporalSmoother before resizing. But GordianKnot places the command to Crop before TemporalSmoother and that causes an error in Avisynth (or rather TemporalSmoother does). I am using Avisynth 2.0.6 and version 4.0 of decomb.dll.

To exemplify:
This works:
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\decomb.dll")
mpeg2source("movie.d2v")
Telecide()
Decimate(cycle=5)
TemporalSmoother(2,1)
crop(10,2,698,476)
BilinearResize(448,336)


This does not work (and this is the order Gordian sets):
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\decomb.dll")
mpeg2source("movie.d2v")
Telecide()
Decimate(cycle=5)
crop(10,2,698,476)
TemporalSmoother(2,1)
BilinearResize(448,336)

If the command to Crop comes before TemporalSmoother, Avisynth doesn't want to play along. Is there any way I can do a comp test with the Crop command set *after* TemporalSmoother?

/Swan

[manono]

Hi-

Actually, the default is this:

LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\decomb.dll")
mpeg2source("movie.d2v")
Telecide()
Decimate(cycle=5)
crop(10,2,698,476)
BilinearResize(448,336)
TemporalSmoother(2,1)

And that works.
It's only when you check "Put Noise Filter Before Resizing (Slower)", that the Temp Smooth line gets put before resizing (which, as you said, doesn't work). As near as I can tell, it has something to do with Telecide-Decimate, because when I comment them out, it works again. But I have no idea why.

So, if the .avs I gave is OK with you, then run it with the Temp Smooth line last. If you still wish to edit the .avs so Temp Smooth is before crop, then you'll have to run the compress check without being able to press the "Now" button. Please see This Thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35847) (and the other thread linked to) for the workaround. You didn't say what codec you were using, but it's slightly easier to do using DivX3 than DivX5.

[Swan]

Manono, I knew I could depend on you. You're always quick to help. Thank you! I will check out the link you supplied and give it a shot tonight. I use DiVX 3.

Do you think there's any way that The Wef could fix this? So that TemporalSmoother is set before Crop?

Wef, if you're reading this.. I use GordianKnot every day. I can't encode without the compressibility test (it's great!) and the resizing and cropping function is so useful too. Is there any way but PayPal to send you a little token?

/Swan

[manono]

Hi Swan-

According to This Thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35865), the next version will be a lot more configurable, so at the least I figure, we'll be able to edit the .avs and still run the normal Compress Test. But that's just a guess. I don't have any inside information.

But it's something to look forward to.

[Swan]

Manono, I finally got around to doing some tests tonight. I have a PAL clip where I can use telecide () and all the combing is gone ( I retrieve the progressive frames, which I prefer to deinterlacing). I wanted to do a compressibility test on it and then, if that worked, go to a NTSC DVD that needs IVTC and TemporalSmoother (put before Crop). I have tried to encode the movie several times and it comes out 4 MB oversized every time. It's the first time I've *not* used Force Film, this one needs a better IVTC method. I want to bring it down to 23.976 fps, but need a filter that will remove the extra frames and also check for remaining combing.
As I understand Telecide () Decimate(cycle=5) will do that? I'm tired of working on the DVD right now, but I'll give it another shot, using your tips. :)

I read your guide (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34610&highlight=AviSynth+2.06+new+resizing+filter), but could not find Bond's tips, which you mention there. Maybe it's old age? :)
Anyway, your tips were very helpful. I have a three questions and I hope you can help me.

Hit Load, and load the movie.log (and not movie_GKnot.log), and say Yes to the new window that pops up. If you performed IVTC, don't forget to switch to 23.976fps. You'll see the Load Percentage in red and an impossibly high figure. But, return the Total File Size to it's intended final figure (like 700MB, or 1390MB) and you'll get the correct percentage figure.
I'm using DivX 3. I get two files, one .stats and one .log. I assumed I should load the stats-file, but I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing. When I load the -log file I get a warning message that "number of pixels per frame is not stored in a divx4 file.." That doesn't sound right...:)
GordianKnot also creates a small .avi file.. Should it do that?

When I get around to encoding the movie that needs IVTC, should I check "IVTC in avs ---> correct frame count" ?

Is it normally difficult to get a correct file size (699-700 MB with audio) on movies that are encoded using Telecide()
Decimate(cycle=5) instead of Force Film in DVD2avi? The audio was done, so Gordian knew how big the mp3 was before encoding the movie..

After Gordian had done the first pass, it warned me that the number of frames differed. When I loaded the d2v project (which had 29.970 fps) should I have changed that to 23.976 fps before I did the first pass (where I used telecide() etc)?

/Swan

[jggimi]

When I get around to encoding the movie that needs IVTC, should I check "IVTC in avs ---> correct frame count" ?Yes.Is it normally difficult to get a correct file size (699-700 MB with audio) on movies that are encoded using Telecide()
Decimate(cycle=5) instead of Force Film in DVD2avi? I don't have a problem when I use a compress check that uses the same IVTC filters.After Gordian had done the first pass, it warned me that the number of frames differed. When I loaded the d2v project (which had 29.970 fps) should I have changed that to 23.976 fps before I did the first pass (where I used telecide() etc)?
No, instead, you should just check the "IVTC in avs -->" box. I used to recommend changing the framerate, but discovered that the end-credit frame count would not adjust to the new framerate. Better to use the "IVTC in avs" box, and theWEF concurred when I asked him. Using that will let GKnot adjust the end-credit frame start properly in the .avs script.

[manono]

Hi Swan-

I have a PAL clip where I can use telecide () and all the combing is gone

Good One-so many PAL people see that interlacing and just slap a deinterlacer on it, and there goes the video quality. And most of the time you can return the progressive frames by using Telecide() by itself.

but could not find Bond's tips

I originally wrote that thing for DivX5, and Bond figured out that for DivX3 you load the stats file and not the log file. So, you did right. And when loading the stats file, change the fps to 23.976 down in the lower left to get the correct percentage for the IVTC'd video (isn't that correct, jggimi, or did I just contradict something you said? I hope not.)

As for your 4MB oversize, when you fill in the audio size, are you also allowing for the overhead by checking "Calculate Frame-Overhead" and ticking the proper box under "Interleaving & AVI-Overhead"?

[Swan]

@manono As for your 4MB oversize, when you fill in the audio size, are you also allowing for the overhead by checking "Calculate Frame-Overhead" and ticking the proper box under "Interleaving & AVI-Overhead"?
Yes I did. I always create the Mp3 first, even before cropping and so on, I find it easier than letting Gknot handle the ac3-->wav-->mp3. I make sure to check "Calculate Frame-Overhead".
I have not encountered this problem before (oversizing). I will give another try, just have to rest from it for a day or so. :)

@jggimi
discovered that the end-credit frame count would not adjust to the new framerate. Better
I encode the whole movie with the same settings (I don't use the trim function or encode the credits with a lower bitrate). So then, should it matter if I change the value in the drop-down box from 29.970 ro 23.976? Should I check "IVTC in avs -->" box anyway? Or is it only useful when you use the option to encode credits separately?

Thanks a lot, guys!

/Swan

[jggimi]

Your choice is to either set the fps to 23.976, or to check the box. Checking the box is only critical if you use trim options.

[Swan]

Thanks a bunch, jggimi!
By the way, in Doom9's GKnot guide (http://doom9.org/gknot-divx3.htm)there's a screen shot showing a radio button option for "Inverse Telecine". I don't have that option. Do you?
Are Doom's screen shots from an older version of GordianKnot?
Or is something wrong with my installation? I have the 0.26 version.

/Swan

[jggimi]

Yes, the guide is from an older version. Now, you select "IVTC" and it will enable DeComb's Telecide and Decimate filters in the .avs file.

[Swan]

I have three options under "Field Operations" (after pressing the "save and encode" button):
None
Fast Deinterlace
Field Deinterlace.

I don't have an IVTC radio button! :-O

/Swan

[jggimi]

You should have a fourth option in Field Operations: "Inverse Telecine." Inverse Telecine = IVTC.

[Swan]

Really? :-O
Here are two screenshots:
http://w1.837.telia.com/~u83704167/gordian/

You can see my opions and the version I have.
It doesn't look "wrong"(as if the IVTC setting is missing).

/Swan

[manono]

Hi Swan-

If you've used Force Film on an NTSC DVD and opened a 23.976fps .d2v, then GKnot doesn't make the IVTC option available. TheWEF does it this way to prevent people from IVTCing a 23.976fps source (clever man). I don't know about PAL movies (as I don't own any), but it could be the same way (you don't want to IVTC it, although Telecide alone is often useful). Could that be the problem? In that case, you'll have to edit the .avs yourself.

If you have any NTSC DVDs lying around, you might test by making a 29.97fps .d2v (no Force Film), and I'll bet the IVTC option becomes available to you.

[Swan]

Manono, once again.. Thank you.
I encode a lot of PAL material, and with PAL input, the IVTC option is not visible either. A nice Telecide option for PAL would be great. ;)
I look forward to the new version of Gordian.

Thanks, now I see the light. :)

/Swan

PS
Encoded movie (IVTC:ed using decomb.dll and noise filtered with temporalsmoother, set before Crop). Comp test worked like a charm (using your suggesions, Manono) and the file came out the right size.
You and jggimi are my favorite mods. ;)