MSI TV@nywhere SUX !!! ...can't do anything decent

[\AX]

I just got that MSI tv@nywhere tv tuner with the newer conexant 10bit chip. It's horrible...here's my personal experience.

1st it's easy to install...not problems at all. The only thing i noticed different as far as hardware is that it use's jumper's to select your format (ntsc_M, pas...etc.)

Here's my system
1.33 athlon
512ddrram
asus mobo VIA

I'm also only using the s-video port on the card...nothing else is connected to it but the s-video cable.

Ive installed the product and have installed it's supplied driver's off the cd and the intervideo program.

Intervideo is UNBELIEVABLY limited. First it only capture's in MPEG so this sux for me since i capture in huffyuv. Now inside this program you only have a limited selection of frame size's, setting's. The quality it give's me sux. I don't blame this on the card because ive used this program before with horrible result's that changed for the better with different programs.

You CANNOT use this card and capture at ANYTHING BUT 320x240 in any other application than intervideo...and then only capture in MPEG-1 or MPEG-2. This sux as it is. In AVI_IO and VDub both only allow for 320x240 res. Your limited.

Intervideo does not allow you to adjust the chroma, sharpness, or other need adjustment's you will most likely need. In AVI_IO or VDub you cant even adjust anything but brightness, saturation, Hue and Contrast...so your limited there aswell.

There support seems to really suk to. I called the MSI support line and they had me on hold (never talked to a living person) for 35minute's so i just hung up. There zhitty problem form only spit's back a auto response so your in the dark it seems.

It of course as you might already know does not encode to MPEG-4 although it clearly claims to on the box.

ive installed the vfw_2_wdm for basically know reason just to see if it made a difference somehow and it didn't. The btwincap is out the door for it's only bt8x8 not this new card.

NOW here is where something good happens on the other hand.

First if you do use vdub or anythign else besides intervideo you can see that the picture quality is better....by a noticable sum.

Now the picture remains blurry throughout all program's but you can see that the quality goes up...for some reason. So that 10bit chip is doing something it's just so limited by the driver's currently. Now this blurry effect i know can be fixed if there was a option to change the Sharpness because it's the same blurriness that is on every other capture card i have without adjust the sharpness...but there is not option to. So this means if you can adjust that the picture would be much better than any bt8x8 card or picture of a cap from a bt8x8 card than i have ever seen.

Now the card claims to deinterlace...and it does. It does it AMAZINGLY well. For my opinion it does it so good even if i normally deinterlace in vdub i would no longer due it and just use the option the card supplies.

The noise i have been complaining about and concerned about is gone with this 10bit tv@nywhere wonder. The picture clearly looks better although it needs a setting to sharpen it up. You can capture video in either Overlay or Preview mode with this card.

Conclusion,
Best video quality i have gotten yet, but the fact i cannot adjust the sharpenss, capture with huffyuv in vdub @ 720/704x480 totally ruins this card's functionality for me. I have to...

A. put it to the side and hope for better drivers buy the manufacturer or someone else or..
B. Return the damn thing.

Im going to return it. It cannot give me anything but a headache searching for a driver that can enable it to work in vdub @720x480 with huffyuv. I think this is waaaaaaay too much to hope for now.

If a driver get's invented for this card's chip...it will clearly own over any other bt8x8 card and probably any other type of consumer based card's. As it is now...it clearly has no advantag over any other card...i would'nt even compare it to a vcr's functionality.

Also i have tried the remote...it works fine, just be gentle.

Also i have tried to remotely control this card over a network...it work's but you need the MSI software to change the channel's on the card or else your stuck with whatever channel its on. The video quality is ok over the network...nothing to archive though. Im sure atleast MSI will let you choose a larger bitrate for broadband in the future. You can stream media via internet other ways of course...so i would due that.

Also i have tried the onboard audio. I *think* it can support stereo but i don't know how to get that to work.

I will post again after a few more hours of working with it...actually after talking to the MSI Tech rep aswell.


also can someone explain to me how this help's http://www.msi.com.tw/html/products/per/per_htm/8876-2.htm

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

thanks for first hand experience
(first overall on this forum?)
pitty though drivers are (early) beta?

did you tried btwincap?(or asked author if it will work with this new chip?i guess probably they don't work!it would be real miracle!)

one shold take a look at datasheet for this new chip to find any compatibility with old one...(if compatibility is sustanied (as with bt848/878 variations) "old" btwincap might work..)

btw. nice link on msi page:it seems that this chip separates luma
& chroma differently:it separates luma from chroma on "per line" basis,not the usual filtering methods (which are pretty rough on the signal....)

that principle looks promising.......

cheers

Ivo

[Swan]

@ \AX

Thanks for the interesting review.
Too bad about the card, I'm interested in getting better looking captures and a 10 bit A/D converter sounded appetizing.. Maybe when more and more card makers start using the new chip, a new version of Btwincap will emerge.

I'm experimenting with a Pinnacle PCTV Pro that I just bought to replace my Aver TV Studio with. So far, I am pleased. I'm using the latest drivers from Pinnacle.
Either there's something wrong with the Aver card, or Pinnacle did something Aver didn't when constructing the card, because the image quality is *much better* from the Pinnacle card. Both have a BT878a chip.

Intervideo is UNBELIEVABLY limited. First it only capture's in MPEG so this sux for me since i capture in huffyuv.

I know you prefer Huffy capturing. And I respect that. ;) But I just want to mention that you can set up your own Presets for Mpeg-capturing in WinDVR and get IMHO good results. But it does suck, in comparison with some other Mpeg-capturing softwares: it only allows you to use a max bitrate of 224 for the Mpeg layer 2 audio! In version 1.8 of WinDVR, you could set it to 384.
Also, it does not allow you to capture interlaced and that's my biggest beef with WinDVR. I got it bundled with a Terratec Cinergy 400, a card that I've never got to work, BTW.
I'll try to return that one, unless a good friend of mine with a completely different computer spec can get it working. Then I'll give it to him. :)

/Swan

[\AX]

@I400

Thanks for the info on that. I had no idea what it was trying to explain to me. I understand it seperated them and all that but i didn't understand the difference. I can see how this feature, by your explanation will help alot.

About the BTWincap. well i don't even know who dev's it or what. all i know is where to download it. I guess i could email the link there but i feel like it would be strange. It seems' very few people have this new chipset. I know this new chipset, in the future could best the old 8bit or at very least tie with the best 8bit's...or so i would think. I should email whoever work's on it but since nobody really has one yet i don't seem him/her of interest. I know this new chipset will be more commonly used in the future but right now it's beta.

Also is the chipset opensource or whatever??? can anyone dev on this thing??

However if i could get a promise that work would be done the this chipset i could promise to send it to him...the dev of btwincap or whatever. It's a loss on my part but 8bit is a task and i would have no idea on where to even start on trying things with it...at alos 1% experience with the 8bit chipset gives me no advantage.

I would love for somebody that is strong in this area to come forward and take on the possiblities of this new chipset. I would defiantely GIVE it to him and even pay shipping if he would...but other than that im in the dark.

btwincap does not work. I use the gui for installing the driver...so i don't even know what manufacturer or options i should pick when installing. I don't believe it will work as it is right now anyhow.

-------------------------------
@Swan

I got a ? for the pinnacle pctv pro. I have a older pinnacle pc tv (non-pro) i got over a year ago in a i/o magic box...now is this the same 878a chip you have in yours? Should i upgrade to this pinnacle pctv pro or not. I have the pinnacle pctv pro but not here...and it's currently being used by a relative. I did not notice really any difference in the cards besides i think one had FM and one didnt i belive. Is there a way to tell if my chipset is 878 or 878a..?? would it list it on the chip if it was a 878a??

About the mpeg..your right. I would honestly give up the huff and cap at mpg with this card but the picture looks too blurry. THe deinterlacting i must of had confused...i read that the card did it but it must be the software. At any rate it looks good...real good. I have used software to do it before but it didnt look that good. I could setup to cap in mpeg with this card...if it wasnt soo damn blurry.


----------------------------
@tried it again

I gave it another shot...it's zhit. I understand that this card has alot of feature's...but no driver to support those effectively. My biggest complaint is still it's sooooooooooooooo blurry. I mean not alittle...alot. You can see how blurry it looks right now with btwincap with a 8x8 board if you adjust the sharpness level to the bluriess setting...that is this card. It's like someone spilt milk on the screen, let it dry, and your looking at the picture through the dried milk...it sux.

I managed to not be able to capture audio still in Stereo...i think it only supports Mono on board.

The tv tuner for CATV i tried out some more...it's the same as any other. Although it seems to fly through the channels and produce a picture quicker. Capturing with CATV to mpeg looks better than any other card i have used...as far as noise is concerned(it still is blurry).

The composite i tried alot more since i have the svideo cable on my hauppuage for capture i cannot use that. Ive been caping just, whatever, various zhit from tape, tv, and dvd. It produce's a real nice picture from the composite aswell...but still too fuc'n blurry for someone who is NOT blind.

This time around to me it's obvious this card can capture with a better picture and/or less noise than any other card I have used. If i could just adjust the fuc'n sharpness.....FUUUUUUUCCCC!!!!!

If anybody out there, I40, Swan, whoever know's someone that can possibly work with this damn card and get something up and running that is acceptable...i would happily GIVE them the card.

Here's the deal...i swear to you all...if you had this card...and you could adjust the sharpness...you would never use any other card to capture based on 8x8 conexant. This i cannot prove from here, I know it's a bold statement to say this and not even mention that this is just my personal view and not the view for everybody...but im not saying this is just my personal view...not this time, no way. If you see what im seeing you would understand...to me it's AMAZING capibilitie's are AMAZINGLY held down by the driver.

Bottom line...who can work this card out if they had it in there hands???

[Swan]

Also is the chipset opensource or whatever??? can anyone dev on this thing??
I don't think the details surrounding how the Conexant/BT chip works is open source. As I recall reading somewhere, the documents needed to write a driver for the chip was accidentally leaked. It was placed by Conexant's staff on their public FTP by mistake and by the time they discovered it, the documents were already spreading on the internet. :)

However if i could get a promise that work would be done the this chipset i could promise to send it to him...
I understand why you hesitate to contact him (Eduardo José Tagle, author of Btwincap drivers). But who knows? Perhaps he'll jump at the chance to test and work on the 10 bit card you have? Just asking him, even offering him to borrow the card, can't hurt.

btwincap does not work. I use the gui for installing the driver...so i don't even know what manufacturer or options i should pick when installing. I don't believe it will work as it is right now anyhow.
I don't think so either, since the A/D converter, and likely many other components want different commands and the whole card structure is likely very different from "your everyday BT-capture card".

I have a older pinnacle pc tv (non-pro) i got over a year ago in a i/o magic box...now is this the same 878a chip you have in yours?
I don't know, to be honest. The same chip #878a is also seated on my Aver TV Studio card. I bought the Pinnacle because I was unhappy with the quality of it and hoped the Pinnacle would be better. And it is!
I don't want to be too quick to attribute this to anything but that the Aver card was faulty, though. The bundled software for capturing included with the PCTV Pro is also lightyears better than Aver's.

I'll try to find the time to upload some clips later, so you can see the difference in quality between the Aver and the PCTVPro. The PC TV Pro I bought was launched during spring this year, I think. I wonder if they've changed that much since the production of your card? This was the review I read before making up my mind:
http://www.tv-cards.com/NewPCTVrange.htm
It does have FM Radio.

I bought it also because liked the idea that if the Pinnacle drivers were junk, I could go with Btwincap. I have been satisfied with the drivers from Pinnacle so far. I know I'll find issues, I've only had it installed since yesterday. :)

You'll probably have to go with BTWincap, though, as the Pinnacle driver limits the card's capture resolution in VirtualDub to 352 x 288 (352 x 240). But it works in full capture resolution with the programs I like, VideoStudio and PowerVCR. I also can capture in full res, avi with Huff compression in simple, old Amcap, so I think activating the "Smart Tee" for preview may be the key. Can you do that in VirtualDub or is "Preview" the only available option?
I have also tried IuVCR, but it hangs on startup, just gives me a nasty window aying "EAccess error". :(

By the way, have you tried what you can do with your MSI card using Amcap?
It's a simple program where you access the card's drivers in a very straight-forward way. You can download it from the same web page as the Btwincap drivers. It's called "wdmmiscutils2.7.0.zip" and described as "A DirectShow based video capture and viewing application". I use it a lot for testing stuff. But you can also capture with it.

Is there a way to tell if my chipset is 878 or 878a..?? would it list it on the chip if it was a 878a??
Yes, it is listed on the chip, very easy to spot.

. At any rate it looks good...real good. I have used software to do it before but it didnt look that good.
Yes, the intervideo deinterlacing filter does a good job. But I'd wish it could be turned off too. So that the captured files were interlaced!

I could setup to cap in mpeg with this card...if it wasnt soo damn blurry.
It's also blurry when just watching TV?
What other software have you tried, besides Intervideo WinDVR, Avi_io and Vdub?
Perhaps IuVCR will work? I'm sure someone more used to Huffy capturing ( ^^-+I4004+-^^ can surely help with that) can jump in and suggest more software to test. Or you have tried all already.

If you like, try Ulead VideoStudio, You won't love it. It has a ridiculous interface, etc. But it's better than WinDVR and you can control the aspects of Mpeg-encoding. You can also capture in avi-format with it, though sadly only uncompressed. Perhaps it will work with your drivers?
For me, with Pinnacle's drivers, Vdub can only use 352 x 288, but in VideoStudio and PowerVCR, I can capture full res.

I managed to not be able to capture audio still in Stereo...i think it only supports Mono on board.
Yikes! :(
But, if you're using S-Video or composite, perhaps you can hook the audio from your external device (TV, VHS, sat receiver) directly into the sound card and get stereo that way?


If anybody out there, I40, Swan, whoever know's someone that can possibly work with this damn card and get something up and running that is acceptable...i would happily GIVE them the card.
That's very generous of you. And I know how you feel, you want to throw it out the window right now? I've been there, many times. I say, test a few more things and if it still makes you go ballistic, send it back and try to forget about ever having it in your possession. :) That's what I did with the Terratec. It was driving me up the wall, testing and testing the damn thing and nothing worked, so in the end, I took it out and have offered to give it to a friend, if he can get it to work.

Here's the deal...i swear to you all...if you had this card...and you could adjust the sharpness...you would never use any other card to capture based on 8x8 conexant.
I believe you. I think the Terratec has a 9 bit A/D converter and I thought I saw an improvement in image quality.

/Swan

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

@/AX

i would like that we get some things straight:
are you telling that you've tried vdub capture mode,turned
off "overlay" ,switched to "preview" mode,tried to set resolution
in "set custom format" section and AFTER ALL THAT got just lo-res?

off course for using VD on win2k or winxp you'll need wdm->vfw wrapper installed!

if you tried all this and failed,then did you tried vfw drivers (if you have dualboot) on win98 or so?

just that we're sure that indeed drivers are lousy...
(it's hard to believe that someone will include just lo-res capturing on such device.....i've snug (hope that's the word(?)) a peek into some technical data.....even HDTV output is mentioned when this chip is used in conjuction with another one from same manufacturer.....)


@Swan:
[quote]
"I don't think the details surrounding how the Conexant/BT chip works is open source. As I recall reading somewhere, the documents needed to write a driver for the chip was accidentally leaked. It was placed by Conexant's staff on their public FTP by mistake and by the time they discovered it, the documents were already spreading on the internet. "[end quote]

i STRONGLY disagree!i myself have datasheet of bt8x8 & i could develop
drivers with that datasheet & knowledge of wdm interface etc.
(but i'm not a programer)

conexant WANT'S you to take interest in their products!
develop drivers?hell why no as long as they'll sell more units!
you CANNOT copy the chip itself ( copy manufacturing process & sell chips as it there were yours product )
but you can work with any program you please.......
to develop a driver for device IS NOT illegal!

all is needed is datasheet & experienced programer!
(also he must be willing to do it for free!
i don't know if Jose (i guess that's the name) could do this....but then why should he?he already make his contribution and a BIG one!!!)

(first he saw that Bt has sharpness control (as I did too..in datasheet), & then he made the driver that incorporated that....i would do the same thing if i was programer...no one can touch me for doing that!)

Ivo

[Swan]

B]@ ^^-+I4004+-^^[/B]

i STRONGLY disagree!i myself have datasheet of bt8x8 & i could develop [

From: http://www.iulabs.com/eng/drv/faq.shtml

Q2: Where did this driver come from?

A: In 2000 Conexant company (the vendor of BrookTree 848 and 878 chips) placed their reference 3.1.28 driver source code at their FTP site. Later Conexant closed the download but the sources were spread over the Internet. It is possible to find them using a search engine even today. I thought someone would polish these drivers and give them a commercial quality, because in their original state there were many bugs and limitations, but nobody started... So I did it myself -- see the history.txt. Unfortunately, Conexant and many other vendors who used the reference 3.1.28 driver didn't fix the problems with them. Instead, the TV tuner vendors created propietary software libraries for selecting an audio source and for tuning the TV channels. Of course only the OEM software that comes with the TV tuner cards is then able to use the 'secret' entry points for these
libraries.

i don't know if Jose (i guess that's the name) could do this....but then why should he?he already make his contribution and a BIG one!!!)
No one's said he *should*. I simply suggested that he *may* be interested, since he'd even get to borrow the card. Maybe he's really into developing drivers? Maybe he loves it? We don't know. Simply asking, in a polite way is not harmful. :)

/Swan

[\AX]

Swan man, I love yah and i hate ya. :-)

Ok Amcap doesnt work...but it let's you access the driver...or so i think and apply settings. But these settings don't hold. I can say however after running AMcap the sharpness level became avail..but the problem is doesnt hold in InterVIdeo's zhit. I can set it now in avi_io, vdub, amcap to the level of 4 instead of it's old level of 1...and now it looks PERFECT!!!. Problem is avi_io, vdub, and amcap won't let me cap in 720x480. Amcap says "Cannot render video capture stream" when i try to capture at 720x480.

Now when i accessed the driver in AMCap i see options to set from rgb16bit to Yuy2 and many others. Also i see many different resolutions to capture in. I think all current ones in fact. However i apply yuy2 in that driver screen in amcap, then set the res to 720x480...and it gives me that msg. Now i close the program and the resolution and the video format are back to default in avi_io and vdub.

So in other words i wish i never tried AMCap because now i see what the card can due ath 720x480 at the correct sharpness level and im PISSED OFF!!! IM PISSED OFF BECAUSE I CAN SEE WHAT IT CAN DO...BUT IT WON'T!!!ARRGGGHHH!!!...Fuc'n why me?

It looks REMARKABLE. I don't see any noise at all, the color is perfect, and it's like something i have never seen before. It's AMAZING. But it wont work...wtf is going on here.

Anyhow i think im going to send it back like you said...make's sense. Now i said i love you but i hate ya because now i can see what it CAN due and i don't want to send it back :-(...mommy....but i am sending it back.

I don't know the draw backs of using DirectDraw are however..i imagine if it was better eveybody would used it instead...so i guess it's not. And how is the a/v synch in AMCap???? good??? bad???

Another thing i would like to point out. I did not have to install the vfw_2_wdm to run this card in vdub or avi_io. It says it's a wdm card but who knows. I know that you don't have to have that though. In vdub and avi_io it says "Micrsoft WDM Image Capture". I did however install that...but however i ran this card up in avi_io and vdub before i did install it...so im not sure what is going on...maybe the driver is built that way i guess.

I wish i could keep it...if it would of worked in amcap with a/v synch i would keep it....but it wouldnt work at all. Im not sure why it says "Cannot render video capture stream" but im guessing it's a no go in that app anyhow.

Another ?. Since i can capture @ 720x480 in InterVideo in MPEG-2 does this mean the card can capture @ 720x480 in non-Mpeg=2 formats. I mean if it can handle that resolution it can handle that resolution in anyformat right???

It has to be the driver...it sux.

btw in vdub i tried all the things that you guy's have listed and more...nothing works.

Also the PCTV, PCTV PRO and Hauppauge WINTV all have the 878A chip on them...im not sure but i think i might swap this Hauppauge for the PCTV PRO i have in a friends computer...since he doesnt capture video and couldnt care less about alittle less noise.

The Hauppuage i must say does give good result's...i have not noticed anythign different with this and the PCTV...now i have not done a comparsion with the PCTVPRO.

[Edit] and i totaly forgot to mention my phone call to msi...the rep said this card can support 800x600...but when i asked him how he knew this being that the only application i can use this card with is intervideo's (and he confirmed this is the only app..atleast for 720x480) and intervideo's does not support 800x600...he simply said...it's in the spec's...wtf does that mean???

anyhow it's going back...when i wake up from this nightmare is when i see my credit card be credited for 60usd..until then i live in agony.

@Swan

i read that review over at tv-cards.com (and joined theforum)...does that review mean that pinnacle has released a new line of these card's that COULD produce better quality...or just released the cards again with bug fix's or what not??? i couldnt tell from the review...in fact im not sure how that review conviced you to buy/try it being i didnt read anything about capture quality...only quantity for the dollar

anyhow...thanks for the support so far fella's

o btw about the datasheet being accidentally leaked...well i read maybe the same article as you a year or so ago...i didnt get the impression it was leaked...but left up on a ftp for soooo long they forgot it was there and to continue development. I could be wrong but i don't think it was leaked...just forgotten about on a ftp by a staff member who got paid to due a job he never finished.

[Swan]

Swan man, I love yah and i hate ya. :-)
HAHAH!! I understand.

Ok Amcap doesnt work...but it let's you access the driver...or so i think and apply settings. But these settings don't hold. I can say however after running AMcap the sharpness level became avail..but the problem is doesnt hold in InterVIdeo's zhit
Nah, the settings you set it Amcap doesn't "hold" in any program. I think the driver has some sort of default settings, that it reverts to when one exits the program used to play with them. But! But! If you could find a program to capture with, where you could set the sharpness, etc (access the directshow filters) AND capture in full res, the card would be useful, wouldn't it?
I don't work for Ulead, I swear, but try VideoStudio. :) You can access the exact same dialog boxes for sharpness, etc in it, as in Amcap. And it's better than WinDVR! Much better. Perhaps it'll let you capture in full res, like WinDVR does?
Just set it to force Preview mode. I'm fairly sure you'll be able to capture with it in 720 x 480 and fiddle with the settings you want to (sharpness, color space etc). I didn't know this was possible in VideoStudio until recently. A member here, Thorazine, opened my eyes to it and I'm eternally grateful.

Anyhow i think im going to send it back like you said...make's sense. Now i said i love you but i hate ya because now i can see what it CAN due and i don't want to send it back :-(...mommy....but i am sending it back.
I understand that. Who knows if there'll be other drivers? I would not like to be stuck with WinDVR *only* either!


Problem is avi_io, vdub, and amcap won't let me cap in 720x480. Amcap says "Cannot render video capture stream" when i try to capture at 720x480
Ahh, sh**. And you didn't touch the Video Preview Pin dialog box? I made the mistake of changing that setting once and then I couldn't capture in AmCap. As long as I left it alone, I could capture.

It has to be the driver...it sux.
Yes, indeed it does!

and intervideo's does not support 800x600...he simply said...it's in the spec's...wtf does that mean???
That the guy was a moron. Like all tech support I have ever encountered. :D


read that review over at tv-cards.com (and joined theforum)...does that review mean that pinnacle has released a new line of these card's that COULD produce better quality...or just released the cards again with bug fix's or what not??? i couldnt tell from the review...
Me neither. I also thought the review lacked some stuff I would have liked to read, like, does the thing work with Vdub in full resolution, etc? What are the drivers like, etc? Yeah, and how's the quality of the capturing? Viewing TV, etc? I posted some questions on the forum for the site owner, but didn't get a reply. I got some good feedback from the users in this forum, though. :)
I would guess that the card is about the same.

o btw about the datasheet being accidentally leaked...well i read maybe the same article as you a year or so ago...i didnt get the impression it was leaked.
Oh well, it's just me, being paranoid then. :)

/Swan

[Belgabor]

Originally posted by \AX

Ok Amcap doesnt work...but it let's you access the driver...or so i think and apply settings. But these settings don't hold. I can say however after running AMcap the sharpness level became avail..but the problem is doesnt hold in InterVIdeo's zhit. I can set it now in avi_io, vdub, amcap to the level of 4 instead of it's old level of 1...and now it looks PERFECT!!!. Problem is avi_io, vdub, and amcap won't let me cap in 720x480. Amcap says "Cannot render video capture stream" when i try to capture at 720x480.


1.) Have you tried VirtualVCR? Its a nice freeware wdm capturing program. (btw ampcap is pretty much a sample program form the M$ SDK afaik)

2.) Try to turn off preview, perhaps thats the problem (I remeber getting similar errors once in vdub with preview and non-btwincap drivers)

Cheers
Belgabor

[thorazine]

If the card is using WDM drivers then you should use WDM capture programs to test it and not AVI_IO & VirtualDub: we all know the problems the WDM-VFW wrapper has with BT8x8 cards so I would expect it to be even worse with this new chipset which didn't even existed when Microsoft programmed the wrapper.

So I would try VirtualVCR, iuVCR, Ulead's Studios, the wdmiscutils.zip that is available in the btwincap download page (which are in fact a modified version of AMcap tweaked for bt8x8). Also you can try the MPC (Media Player Classic) posted here in this forum, I think it's still beta? but one interesting point about it, it's you can access all the filters involved in the capture and change its settings in a similar way you would do with graphedit.

Also when changing resolution & colorspace settings you may have better results switching off preview completely and setting exactly the same settings in preview & capture pins and using the smart tee filter for preview (although this card is supposed to support preview & capture in full size at the same time unlike previous conexant's chipsets...).

[\AX]

@Swan...what is it about you man??? you hear to fustrate the lives of people...my god :-)

"Ahh, sh**. And you didn't touch the Video Preview Pin dialog box? I made the mistake of changing that setting once and then I couldn't capture in AmCap. As long as I left it alone, I could capture"

Yep...your right :-P.

Ok here's the deal. I can, in AMCap capture with huff or any codec @ 720x480 with the correct sharpness level!!!!!omg.

SO it's time to send this back on Monday...but yet here i am pondering each post everybody has made and i came across what you said so i tried it and it worked. So your tormenting me now because i just might keep it :-)

Can AMCap keep a/v synch??? i dont know and i can tell you im not going to try another thing(trying not to jinx it) as far as long term capturing until i trive VideoStudio...being your on a roll and all (you should hit the casino)

This video im capturing has, to my eye's, 0% noise. What it looks like on the pc of course being from a sat box, it looks digital in parts. Like around cartoon charcters and what not. It looks like water is in the video around certain object's in cartoons...if you know what i mean. I think it's because it's digital. Hope it's not because i got my sat box in 16:9 when the source might be 4:3...??? Can i fix that??

Anyways hot shot...this video is too good to turn down. Even though it looks this "digitized" way or whatever it might be it looks EXACTLY like it does on the tv when i play it back on the tv. So to me there is NO noise. This "Digitilized" video look im talking about has always been there. So im referecing the noise i have without that in regards to the capture...although this might be noise and i don't knw it. Anyhow the noise i saw besides this is 100% GONE!!!!

When i play this picture back it looks straight AWESOME!!! Exactly like it does when i see the picture on the digital tv or analogue...both tv's it looks PERFECT!!!!

Im not totally in a puzzle on what to due. Since I now know for a 100% fact that this card can support huffyuv @720x480 with the shaprness levels' and all im hesitating. This looks hands down better than my pinnacle...side track coming up...

While i was not capturing i went and got the pctv Pro and the regular pctv...the capture quality...is to me the same. Im pretty sure it is the same however. Anyways...your right. The Hauppauge WinTV FM card i have been using does not produce as good as a capture. The reason I was using it was because, at the time, i didn't notice a difference in quality (dumb and blind me). At that time I thought they produced the same quality i just kept using the Hauppauge because i paid 60 more usd for it than the I/O Magic PVR..aka Pinnacle PCTV (i paid 100sud for the, now zhitty, Hauppauge). The pinnacle pctv pro i never tested it for i got it for only 10 more usd than the 40usd I/O magic (pinnacle pctv). The picture on these pinnacle's is EXTREMELY nice. However, not as good as the MSI TV@naywhere...not at all. I can notice just some noise in the Pinnacle's...im telling, i can't notice ANY AT ALL in this MSI 10bit.

Ok visualstudio (im on dialup) i have been trying to d/l since you posted about it...in fact the first time i saw thorZaine post about it in another thread recently i then also tried to get it...but it keeps breaking connection. I use flashget, and for some UNKNOWN reason it won't resume from ulead's site. Ive been tring Kazaa for about a day now...looks good and should come in sometime in the next 4 hours (1.26kbs)...so it looks like i will have that to test tommorrow...or atleast tommorrow night.

Anything i should know about keeping synch in Amcap??? i really don't want to use it because it doesnt have a timer...or so i dont think it does. And it seems i can't save my capture settings in it. For some reason the audio input default's back to What You Hear, and the Video to Composit In...so for a timer base control...this probably wont work...im hope videoStudio will have such.

Synch issue's in AMcap are now my concern...aswell as scheduled recording. If visualStudio works then the same concern applies there.

iuVCR won't load...i don't get it at all. Not the card not loading...the program wont startup at all. Even if i unistall this MSI cap card in device manager, and even remove the svideo cable...it still wont open.

Bottom line...this card produce's a noise rate of 0%...if someone has a hawk's eye...maybe they can spot 1-2%...but no more than that. I promise you i see 0% right now. Im off to bed, will get back in with the results of visual studio

@Thorzine.
I know what you mean by using WDM driver's...but this card works WITHOUT the wrapper in avi_io/vdub. I don't know what is up with the drivers but, i guessing, any app can use it at this point...the only app that i plan on testing it in is iuVCR but that won't even load with or without the card (must be my personal w2k settings or something).

@Belgabor
i have not tried that yet...i plan on it...believe me i plan on trying everythign i can download. You say it's nice i believe you...this thread is on a hot streak for this card...fuc did i just jinx it???

To bed i go in amazement and worries...but tonight's anything but typical now :-).

OOps follow up...ive installed VideoStudio...im not sure what is going on in it but everytime i try to capture it gives me this first

"Failed to build a preveiw graph.

Capturing Failed.
The file created is corrupt and unusable.
It will automatically be deleted"

then followed by this or something like it...can't remmber aNd it wont pop up again..

"Could not switch to capture mode.

Please make sure your card is working correctly" or some zhit

that's wacked...btw i know what Swan means by sadly only uncompressed...i guess you cant use huffyuv codec.

[edit] btw i pretty damn sure in vStudio the res is 320x240...because it looks like total zhit.

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

/AX>Bottom line...this card produce's a noise rate of 0%...if someone has a hawk's eye...maybe they can spot 1-2%...but no more than that. I promise you i see 0% right now. Im off to bed, will get back in with the results of visual studio

_what card "produces" noise?
it's the sources that have noise,not cards ( converters)
noise i see on tv is the same noise i'll capture to my
PC........

btw.can you give some real & relevant data?
i guess that would be the following:

1-does it work with VDub?(that most of us use)
2-what drivers are installed (manufacturer & version)
3-are all relevant resolutions supported?
4-any dropped frames....(?)
etc.
i myself don't plan buying this card,but perhaps someone does
and you did a hell of a job confusing everybody....

also you didn't mentioned what did you changed in setup to justify such reversal of fortune???
your 1 st post doesn't sound like this one?
why then writing if you didn't tested thoroughly?

also you say that wrapper is not used????
yes,if you use it on win98/Me & there are vfw drivers for the card

wrapper MUST be introduced on wdm capture systems (win2k&xp)
as VD & avi_io don't have wdm interface......
(or perhaps you got some other VD version?)

cheers

[Swan]

Originally posted by \AX
[B]@Swan...what is it about you man??? you hear to fustrate the lives of people...my god :-)
Well, maybe it's because I'm a woman. Isn't frustrating guys what women always do? And vice versa? :D

across what you said so i tried it and it worked. So your tormenting me now because i just might keep it :-)
Aww!! I know *exactly* what you're going through. That's what happened to me with both the Aver card and the Terratec Cinergy.
I kept both and got at least the Aver to work (although it produced very bad video, unlike your MSI) and the Terratec is now about to be installed in a friend's P4 system. If it works, he can have it. :)

But the fact that you got it working in Amcap gives me a lot of hope. It's now just a matter of finding the right *WDM* capturing software. I can't run IuVCR either. It starts with an ugly error message window (EAccess error), that's all.

The big question is: Are there other WDM softwares that will let Mr. \AX capture 720 x 576 (or x 480), using HuffYuv or Mjpeg? Because that's what you want to do the most, right?

About VideoStudio: Let's see if our lucky streak continues... Install the first patch Ulead released. Don't, *don't* get the new, second, one on their web site!! Download this one:
ftp://ftp.ulead.com/pub/Updates/VideoStudio6/UVS6PatchEng.exe
It will install better Mpeg-encoding filters, but also enable you to force preview mode. That solved the issue with "unable to build preview graph, bla, bla" for me. Hope it does for you too. :)
There is no timer (for scheduled recordings in VideoStudio). Oh, how I wish it had that! :(
But it has a timer, so you can set it to a time to capture and then stop. For example, you set it to 1 hour, hit "start capture" and go out or whatever. When you come back, it's captured one hour and not filled your HD.

Synch issue's in AMcap are now my concern...aswell as scheduled recording.
Also, \AX , test PowerVCR. It has a scheduler. It has its problems too, but I've managed to tweak out most of them. Try it, and if it works and you want some tips (make it capture unlimited amount of time without chaining many 600 MB files, capture interlaced, etc), let me know. About sync, why don't you just capture an hour or so with Amcap and see if the audio and video is in sync? Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean?

might be it looks EXACTLY like it does on the tv when i play it back on the tv. So to me there is NO noise. This "Digitilized" video look im talking about has always been there.
I have a digital sat receiver too and I see pixelation (large blocks) when just watching TV. It may be that my sat receiver is old and has a poor mpeg-2 decoder, but even so, I prefer a few blocks here and there to the noise I see on the analog receiver. Yes, oh, I am a satellite TV fan. :-)

difference in quality (dumb and blind me).
I feel dumb and blind all the time. I seem to learn something new, and /or discover errors in my capturing methods, constantly. :)

/Swan

[Belgabor]

Even if I'm repeating myself, but I think VirtualVCR (www.digtv.ws) is your best chance. ;)

- Its pure WDM
- It supports A/V syncing similar to VDUB_Sync
- Scheduling (with the help of the windoze scheduler)

Cheers
Belgabor

[thorazine]

Originally posted by \AX

@Thorzine.
I know what you mean by using WDM driver's...but this card works WITHOUT the wrapper in avi_io/vdub. I don't know what is up with the drivers but, i guessing, any app can use it at this point...the only app that i plan on testing it in is iuVCR but that won't even load with or without the card (must be my personal w2k settings or something).
[/B]

Are you sure??? What is the name of the capture device in VirtualDub? If it is something like "Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win32)" then you are using the wrapper.

[\AX]

@ I40

Answer's to your 4 ?'s

A. 1. like i have said already above..it does work in vdub just only at 320x240

A. 2. it the latest driver from the msi support page...(2.1.68)

A. 3. answered in previous post's aswell as in 1.

A. 4. no dropped frame's...ive only captured in AmCAp at 720x480...no dropped frames (atleast not out of 2 minute's)

Who said im asking you to buy this card???? Confusing people???wtf??? ok that's cool but see myself is confused by what you mean by this. I have stated all i know about this so far...all i can say is this is the best capture card i have EVER had. Take that for what you will I don't care.

"also you didn't mentioned what did you changed in setup to justify such reversal of fortune???
your 1 st post doesn't sound like this one?
why then writing if you didn't tested thoroughly? " ...Have you not read anything i have posted???? read above and i think you can figure out why i thought it sucked as far as setup and now why it doable...aswell to your answer why i think the TOTAL opposite about it now...someone zhit in your breakfast today???


The noise i am reffering to i guess is in the source..ok but that still doesnt mean im capturing with less noise does it?? i don't think so, i think that this ADC is much better and that is why there is less noise...at any rate, like i have said there is no noise apparent to me.

I already know that vdub, and avi_io are VFW apps...i just know i didnt install the wrapper and it still worked in vdubVCR+Synch and avi_io. Now this does not mean the driver from MSI didnt install something like it. I don't know what the MSI driver installs but it works with out the file VFW_2_WDM. In vdbu, and avio it lists the device as "Microsoft WDM Image Capture"...it does not have the (Win32) name like the VFW_2_WDM had. But im guessing this is something of the same thing. I just said it worked without installing it...but im thinking the same as you about this having to have something of the sort...I just don't need to install it myself.

"real and relevant data" ???? ok what you want that I know so far that you don't.??? there isnt anything besides i have the physical card and you don't...you know everything i do. but i will be more than happy to suffice you by whatever. I could transffer you a small 5mb file (im on dialup) that you could jettison in spite if you find it better quality than your capture's...or maybe vice versa :-P

I really felt you coming down on me in your post. However i don't understand why since im being 100% complete honest about everything. Sorry for whatever i did...sorry
p.s. don't buy the damn card :-P


@Belgabor

I heard you the first time :-P...actually i just now got around to testing it about 5 minutes before this post. Now ive never used VirutalVCR before...but from what i have seen is that you cannot actually select a res in it...it just's use's whatever vdub use's right??? anyhow i tried to capture in it but since i can't get the res right in VDub it did'nt come out right in virtualVCR (320x240). So i guess it's out for now.


@thorazine[B]

It's close to that...but doesnt have (Win32) in the name...it list's as "Microsoft WDM Image Capture"...im guessing it's a wrapper of some sort by MSI or something. At anyrate i did not install a wrapper myself and this card worked. I did however install it afterwards because of i guess just to see if it made a difference, but it didn't. Now i have reinstalled 2k since then and only installed the msi driver and it works...i have no clue why or anything that might be the reason it is working...besides that MSI includes a wrapper...maybe???

[B]Swan

yeh i too wonder if i have a bad decoder in my satbox...but then again it looks like this on other direcTV systems i have seen...aswell as DishNetwork. I live in a area of Cincinnati, Ohio
(U.S.A.) where all we have is these 2 and zhitty digital calbe...and i mean rrrrrrrrrreal zhitty.

PowerVCR wont work...no clue why. But when it loads it hangs at every stage of initialization. Like when it boots up it takes atleast 2 minutes for the 'Evaluational' dialog to pop up...then when i click ok on that it takes 2 minutes to close...and then 2 minutes to open setup...then blah blah etc... I can see video in it...but it looks funky. It's color but it looks realy weird...like everything is shaded horribly. Almost looks like its in 256color mode or something...anyhow looks funky.

Im off to try some more stuff...and search for a driver.

@ EVERYONE!!
Thanks for the replies and help...there much appreciated.

[Swan]

(U.S.A.) where all we have is these 2 and zhitty digital calbe...and i mean rrrrrrrrrreal zhitty.
Shitty in terms of technical quality? I can't believe you have shitty programs, you're in the motherland of TV! ;)
How I envy you Americans and all the TV you can get. Since I feel the best TV, Music, Film, etc come from the USA, perhaps it's just as well that I don't live there. All I'd do is capture all day, not work at all and ruin my life, I guess. :D


PowerVCR wont work...no clue why. But when it loads it hangs at every stage of initialization. Like when it boots up it takes atleast 2

Ok, one down then. But how did the patching of VideoStudio go?


funky. It's color but it looks realy weird...like everything is shaded horribly. Almost looks like its in 256color mode or
something...anyhow looks funky.

Funky? LOL! I love it.
Is it set to use Overlay or Non-Overlay? It behaved like that for me too until I set it to use Overlay.

/Swan

[^^-+I4004+-^^]

i think it would be for the best if you keep it clear & simple..
there's a lot of misundertood stuff which confuses things...
if you make a post 10miles long with just few important things...
(& obviously too confusing for me...by reading other's post & to them it seems..)

i still cannot grasp your talk of VD.....did you tried turning preview completely off?
are you aware that VD uses the SAME driver that amcap does (only with wrapper as go-between...did you tried wrapper thats recommended on this site?)?
you have to explore all possibilities!what if you use some msi modified lousy wrapper..not that MS's is good...?

why then is impossible to get the same resolutions?
did you tried tricks i mentioned (preview instead of overlay etc.)
you didn't provide enough relevant data.......what was the colorspace u used...etc.etc.

perhaps you could do it like this (as this stuff above is all but messy)

VD->colorspace->resolutions
VD->colorspace2->resolutions
ATV2000->colorspace->resolutions
iuVCR->colorspace->resolutions
etc.
do you get same driver dialog box with every program? etc.
(that would be relevant data i guess...)

my experience shows that it's THE SAME with every program->program steps up to the driver and then driver delivers "the goods"....
with all wdm programs i have same results,same resolutions etc.
with VD i have the same stuff as it "asks" btwincap driver for resolution (wrapper is inbetween so it slows my system) etc.
also one more thing........i think wdm interface for all this programs is defined by directx...not much changes there....
(my experience is of that manner...)

[i'm just taking this as VD customer->i have yet to see wdm utility that beats it! ]

samples?
yes,i'm interested.....keep it inside 3mb and i'll receive it (i'm also on modem)
(contact me first....)
perhaps then i can send you some of mine so you can compare too.....
(i presume you use mjpeg for capturing codec?.......i have to assume a lot as you write so little....)


sorry if i offended you,just please be more precise->this stuff interests us all....
( look at me i'm beginning to sound like moderator....funny ain't it..hehehehe )

cheers

Ivo

[\AX]

DIALUp sux...i just got a entire post erased when trying to post....FUC!!

anyhow @Swan. i have not been able to download the patch...it keeps doing 34k then stopping...then i have to resume. It's like babysitting...i don't have time for that right now...i will try to get it soon. Also AMcap does not keep synch for me longer than 5 mintues...so i can't use it.

@ I40

"(i presume you use mjpeg for capturing codec?.......i have to assume a lot as you write so little....)

your not reading my post's...or something is wrong with your memory. because you would of seen this inthe VERY FIRST post i made...

"
Intervideo is UNBELIEVABLY limited. First it only capture's in MPEG so this sux for me since i capture in huffyuv."

for the colorspacing...i have these avail and which work ive tried all res's...of which all res's are supported...but not by vdub.

1. rgb 555 (16 bit)
2. yuy2
3. yvu9
4. I420 <---has not worked yet.
5. rgb 24


in all avial colorspace's i can select up to 720x480 for use with amcap...however the default of rgb 555 (16bit) seems to yeild the best quality. if i wanted PAL res's i would have to take out the card and reset the jumpers...which im not going to due since im in the usa.

"i still cannot grasp your talk of VD.....did you tried turning preview completely off?
are you aware that VD uses the SAME driver that amcap does "

vdbu is limited to 320x240 with this driver. I understand it use's the same driver...but different apps DUE approach it different. for instance Intervideo's app does not allow me to adjust the sharpness but still access the same driver.

You have the benefit of using btwincap...which is a extremely nice driver constructed by someone who took the time to care...i don't have that option here. What btwincap does it does because it was invented to due so...this driver is not invented for 3rd party software...only intervideo's crap.

Your ?'s sound like you think i can or am using the btwincap. I would understand how alot of my data presented here would be irrelevant if i was using the btwincap...but i cannot.

"iuVCR->colorspace->resolutions " ...you have to read. If you would of you would know that i have already said iuVCR wont load. READ!!!!!!!!!!

For what it's worth...this new 10bit ADC is much better than the old 8bit's on bt8x8 boards. Problem is no driver's that are good.

Your post's are getting me off topic by having to reiterate that i have already posted the answer's to almost all your ?'s and you have not read them so it's getting annoying to due this. If you want to get a feel for where i sit right now read the post's. this new 10bit put's me a world outside of your's...so technical ?'s that would be easily answered in regards to the btwincap due not apply here. it's all Troubleshooting.


@Everyone

I can use this card/driver in amcap but amcap does not keep synch. The video it produce's is much better than everything i have ever see. In fact i can't say anything is bad. However...since amcap wont keep synch this is useless to me.

I am returning the card Monday...this thread is dead. In the future when a good driver comes out for it...this card will be the boss of them all...but until that driver comes...it's only second to best to what your using now.

If your looking for card with impecable video quality...this is it..however if your looking for a card to use now...this isnt it. The end result's where limited to anything above 320x240 capturing with huffyuv in ONLY amcap. Other applications work for mpeg-2 however...but also none of those applications produced such quality as vdub did at 320x240 or amcap did with 720x480...the quality is not the same in PowerVCR, intervideo's crap, VisualStudio(or by the looks of it anyway). What i have seen is that im guessing the next step in evolution for capturing cards...and this is a great step. however...the drivers are just not there.

Keep a eye out for a driver that supports this thing in vdub or what now...when you see that driver it's time to get a 10bit card and move on with technology.


Thanks for all the help...ive seen some AMAZING quality with the help of ALL of you. Too bad it came down to driver issue's...but what doesnt??? Only 1 test left howerver...win98. Will report back on that...after that this thread is dead (unless it suprise's me by using vdbu or avi_io....which i doubt since it's a crappy driver.)

[Swan]

anyhow @Swan. i have not been able to download the patch...it keeps doing 34k then stopping...then i have to resume. It's like babysitting...i don't have time for that right now
\AX. I'm really, really interested in if you can get the card/driver to co operate with Ulead VideoStudio 6 after patching it. I have uploaded the patch to my "home page" space. Would you be willing to download it, patch and test if capturing in full resolution in VideoStudio works after that? The file is about 8 MB large.
URL: http://w1.837.telia.com/~u83704167/UVS6PatchEng.exe

Since I personally am totally uninterested in capturing in VirtualDub, perhaps this card could be something for me?
All I'd need it to do is work with VideoStudio and PowerVCR (I know you had problems there, but perhaps those can be tweaked).
I don't even know if it's even sold here in Europe..
How much was it? 60 dollars? And changing the jumper positions would make it work with PAL?

Also, another question, did you have a regular BT card installed in your computer at the same time? Or just the MSI card?
I'm wondering because it'd be great if one could have both, say a Pinncale PC TV Pro and the MSI, installed in the same computer.

/Swan

[\AX]

Sure will download it and try it for you.

I can say this...if you want to capture in something other than vdbu or avi_io and not use huffyuv this card cuts it as it is right now.
I got it to open finally in PowerVCR...but when i start to capture it says unable to switch to preview mode...it wont capture at all. You might be able to fix this however. I have the beta driver for it that will allow you to capture in older version of PowerVCR...anything below 3.0 and this driver has been claimed to work...however in powervcr 3.0+ for most people it wont work...only powervcr 2.0. But this is only subjective to who is trying what. It will load in powervcr just gives me that msg when i try to capture.

Yes jumpers. The card comes with in a box a diagram for what jumper setting are for what. it came to me set in NTSC but to change that you would only have to change the jumpers. I do not doubt that changing the jumper settings wont work either. I have seen on the MSI website that it supports pal, seen in other posts around the net that others are using it in pal, and the fact that it comes with the piece of paper that tells you waht is what pretty much should satisfy anybodies ?'s on wether or not it supports pal. It supports others aswell.

Here is what that card says...actually now i have it in my hands it's too much to type..:-P..but here's the low down

NTSC pins 1,2,5,6 (North America and South America pretty much)
PAL B/G pins 2,3,5,6 (Europe and alot of others)
PAL D/K pins 2,3 (the orient to midwest asia...china,russia, etc..)
PAL I pins 2,3,4,5 (pretty mush the entrie continenant of Africa)

the zhit that's too much to type is the country listing's for each setting...it looks like you would be in the PAL B/G setting being it has more countries listed than all the other 3 listed...and that is what all the european countries i see listed under...PAL B/G

just this card installed at the time...i have not had both installed at the same time ever in all test's

win98 followup

won't even initalize...i don't seem to have all the files need on my win98se cd so...i guess it would work. but it seem to try to access the same exact driver as w2k uses. which brings up this point...one of the files i didnt have on my cd that install in win98 asked for was vfwwdm32.dll ...so i guess it uses it's own wrapper...guess it's a wdm based card. By this i think the same problems would exist in 98 as they do in win2k.

I think VideoStudio sux however...only because it kept forcing me to use the res of 320x240...i could tell this byhow low quality the video looked...all choppy and whatever. Im going to download that patch...thank you for letting me aswell...although this patch probably willmake it work...i don't think it will resolve the issue of only being able to use 320x240 in it...but who knows. Anything at this point with this card is a shot in the dark and a suprise.

If your into capturing in mpeg and being im pretty sure you could get PowerVCR to work somehow...like i have said some have...then this card is all you. However the video in PowerVCR i can see on the overlay is not as good of quality. The quality of video i capture with in amcap is by far, and again im stating this, far better than what a bt8x8 card will give you. It looks unparallel to anythign i have seen yet. Looks exactly like it does on the digital tv, exactly like it does in overlay before you capture, and exactly like that when you play it back after capture back on the digital tv. You will notice 0% noise or loss of quality.

I know other's seem to push the fact that i might be confusing people...like i40...i however have to agree with him now. I think im confusing the people that have not read the post entirely. This card is not for huffyuv or vdub user's yet because of the driver.

now to clear this up

If you care to capture in like PowerVCR with mpeg-2 or whatever...this card is superior to yours. Yours is inferior. Ok...you don't have to believe me...but atleast give what im saying and try it. If you find it to be only as good as what you now then return the darn thing...however you will not find this. You will find, if you use PowerVCR or like capturing in MPEG-2 this card is a step up in the technological advancement in the field of tv cards. You will notice how it splits off to a better performance ratio...and much. However even if you do capture in PowerVCR then youmight not see the as good of quality as i am in amcap...but atleast as equal. For the time being it's limited by the drivers.

In AMCap the quality you see,...it's hands down, let the dog out, call it quits, move on, beating a dead horse, if you stay with a bt8x8 card when there is a good driver for this thing...which is sadly non-existent right now.

I like vdub or avi_io (preferrable vdub now days) and also like to use huffyuv for i think it yeilds better quality...and even that if it don't vs. mpeg-2 i dont care..i have the space and capturing in huffyuv could not be worse than mpeg...so i'll stick with huffyuv for now.

Bottom line...again. if you like to capture in mpeg than this card..as it is now...could be worked out so that you will see a quality increase all over the charts...if your looking like me with my style of capturing you might aswell record the video to a vcr first or something...for there is now program or driver that will operate correctly using vdub and .avi.

it was 60usd from newegg.com...the price when i last check went up 2 dollars...and there is other cards that have this chip...some for like 40usd i here..search on that or i can find one. However i did not use one of these cheaper cards so i cannot say they would yield the same quality. im not too sure what you DONT get for a lower price either...maybe more noise.

for anybody who thinks im full of zhit, confusing people, or whatever...buy the damn card...see for yourself the quality...and the problems i am experiencing...and if you dont like it return the damn thing. It's hard for me to return it now after seeing what it did in amcap...rrrreal hard. but i have to. it just doesnt do what i want it to.

it's only 60usd...and that 60usd might change your entire view of what is quality and what is not. good luck with the driver...if your do mpeg then your most likely fine..but if you do anything but that then watch out...alot of troublshooting will be apparent so expect that.

if only amcap kept synch i would keep it :-(

downloading patch now.

here's another card that has it for cheaper...but i cant back it up

http://www.prolink.com.tw/new_web/news/Prolink%20PixelView%20XCapture_0509.htm

[Swan]

...however in powervcr 3.0+ for most people it wont work...only powervcr 2.0.
OK. I believe you. But I'd love to read discussions about this card. So, that's why I now ask; where did you read this?
I am not questioning you. That's now why I'm asking, OK?
I wrote from the start that I believed you when you said the quality was superior to any 8-bit BT-equipped card!

i don't think it will resolve the issue of only being able to use 320x240 in it...but who knows. Anything at this point with this card is a shot in the dark and a suprise
All I can say is that it did the trick for me, with the Aver card and the Aver drivers. Make sure it has set itself to "force preview"
(Options --->"Force to use preview mode")

Also, check (this is a long shot) that it has selected the right "plug-in" as Ulead calls it.

Once you've switched to the Capture Window:
Click Settings and Commands (at the bottom left of the window where you see the Tv image). It has the symbol of a hammer and some other tool.
Choose "change capture plug-in"
Select "Ulead DSW Mpeg Capture Plug-in"
If it for some reason was set to use one of the "Ulead VFW" capture plug-ins, this may also resolve the issue.
It's a loooong shot.

I had the exact same problem as you and luckily the patch solved it. Also, Ulead's other flagship, DVD Workshop, does NOT work with the drivers for my Pinnacle PCTV pro. I get the exact same error message as in a non-patched VideoStudio. And there is no way to force preview in DVD Workshop. But again, the MSI seems to be in a league of its own when it comes to driver strangeness.. I am not being sarcastic, OK?

I got it to open finally in PowerVCR...but when i start to capture it says unable to switch to preview mode...it wont capture at all
This is very strange to me. What is up with that MSI driver? I've never had a card (I've had three pci-cards) and no driver has behaved this way. If it works in WinDVR, then it's also worked in PowerVCR. Weird!!

However the video in PowerVCR i can see on the overlay is not as good of quality. The quality of video i capture with in amcap is by far, and again im stating this, far better than what a bt8x8 card will give you.
What you see, when you just *view* TV in PowerVCR is a deinterlaced image. This setting is done by PowerVCR and can be changed in the registry, if you'd like that. No filter in Amcap deinterlaces the video when watching live TV, as far as I know. Unless the card or the driver for the card (what do I know) deinterlaces?
Or did I misunderstand you? Please remember that English is not my native tongue.

I thank you for all the information you have provided here. If you can get it to work with Ulead VideoStudio after patching it, then I may very well look into buying one. But since PowerVCR doesn't work (yes, I trust you), then maybe I'll wait for another card with the same chip but better drivers. Because I do believe that you've done everything possible to test it and it just plain has crappy drivers. No way would I like to be stuck with WinDVR either, so returning it is probably the best idea. And like I said before, forget you ever had it! :)

I really appreciate the fact that you download the patch and test VideoStudio capturing for me. ;)

/Swan

[\AX]

no problem on downloading the patch...it came real fast..like a average of 5.76kbs...o yeh dialup..but still was unexpected to come that fast.

ok ive installed the patch. now it works and does capture now. but..ive tried your above suggestions and they all seem to work..but something is still wrong. when i capture at 720x480...it captures as taht...but it doesnt adjust the res before it captures...so in other words it just captures a 320x240 res at 720x480...doesnt actually adjust the res before it captures..so it looks like zhit. but id does work and it might be do'able some how.

i believe you believing me...knw why??? because i have not lied to anybody

here is one thread...aslo where you can get the beta driver that works in powervcr 2.0

http://vcdhelp.com/capturecards.php?CaptureCard=tv@nywhere&Search=Search

now there is another forum somewhere that i read the same thing which i thought was in the avs forum but i cant find it there..i will find it for you somehow..its just that i have no idea what i searched for on google to find it...i know "si tv@nywhere" where 2 words i used..but that doesnt really help. I will try to track it down for you. In both these post's that i know i have seen do not go into great detail...or even close. If you think this thread here is lacking some info then you will think these 2 are completely useless. However the more important of the 2 i have seen was the one link above...for it actually listed another application to use. the other thread i saw was basically a "pitty" review on saying how much it suxed...which i am now bent on finding that thread for i can throw some stuff back at them...for what they rattled off about it was only about intervideo's crap and the fact btwincap and dscaler wouldnt work and only few could get powervcr to work...blah blah blah...no real troubleshooting at all. There isnt in either thread actually...but atleast the vcdhelp one has a alternative suggestion and even has a driver posted that can make it work.

The above link however is sign's of hope for powervcr user's. To be honest i bet it can work in powervcr3.0 but read that post there and you will see that it can work in 2.0 but most ...or he says some CAN get it to work in 3.0...which means most cant.

so far every application can use this card...remember that. but no application fully utilize's it's potential...besides amcap and that goes asynch. this card isnt a dude...but like we have mentioned time after time...limited to the driver

im going to return it monday or tuesday. After you suggestion of amcap...and now seeing what it can due...im going to keep troublshooting it. Also im going to call MSI and due my best on however phone calls it takes to get to someone that can explain this driver to me and see if and if when a driver that is more universal and higher quality can or will be released. I imagine there might not be a good answer to this...for i think they dont' care. However there in the whole right with claiming to have mpEg-4 support and not having it...in other words there fluff the spec's to get people to buy it. I do however believe everything they say...but they ahve to come up with atleast mpeg-4 and a WAY WAY WAY better driver.

I don't totally blame them however...if you look into the link about that other card...the Xcapture...well that driver is zhitty too. HOWEVER.....THAT CARD IS SOLD WITH Cyberlink software or atleast built for it. So seeing this i believe Powervcr is not only compatible with that Xcapture...but all these 10bit cards. Seeing how some have posted that they got it to work in powevcr really supports that aswell. Also i guess we all have to realize that this is pretty new technology and no 3rd party has jumped on it yet.

If the guys that have done up btwincap worked on this...it would be heaven for all us 10bit card user's and all the other's to step up to it in time...for this card is something to try out.


Anyhow...i have not lied 1 time. If anybody doubt's me...then like i have said...get the damn card and try for yourself. If you don't like it send it back. However if you find a good driver..and not the supplied one...you WONT send it back. You will see the light im seeing.

@Swan specifically

Since youve been around the most here for me...im gonna say this.

Im not suggesting you get this card...however it might seem like it since you just read this sentence. But if you do play with cards, like me and others, have no problem sending stuff back that you don't like, can deal with patientence to work things out....then i guess you know what im getting at

It's not the driver that is holding the card back completely...its the driver taht is holding me back completely. This thing, which i cannot of course state or guareentee, probably will work in powervcr. If you like that, or like capturing in mpeg-2...then hell yeh...try it.

I know this. If i read this post, and capture in powervcr and was not a vdub fan that liked to capture to huffyuv...i know i would try it after reading this.

There is no relevant data,(like some have suggested to post) that is present that i can see that would elimanate mpeg capturing at dvd res in NTSC and PAL...its already possible to due this...it really is.

Again i tell ya...what i see in powervcr was not what i seen in amcap however. If you get the card sometime down the road you will see what i am saying. What you see, contrary to what alot of people have told me, what you see on the screen is exactly what you get after capture. I cant say this for all cards i have used...in fact none. I have always seen a slight difference of what i say on the monitor to what i have seen after capture...not alot...but still a slight amount.

btw...that "digital look"...that went away when i started capturing in rgb 555 (16 bit) even on playback on the monitor...i might be lying on that because every now and then i see it...but not like anything or even close to as much as i did when i first mentioned it...it's almost completely gone..let's say in a percentage in a made up scale...i saw BEFORE 40% "digital" blocks or whatever they are...and now in rgb 555 (16 bit) i see about 7% its about that much of a difference...but who knows if that can hold for everybody's experience...ESPECIALLY with this card...but im about 95% sure everyone would notice the same difference...only if they would capture in something other than rgb 555 (16 bit) all the time is where i wouldnt know...because i no only capture in (rgb 16 bit) with this thing...so other colorspace's may vary.

i really don't know wtf to try now...honestly. I know im going to troubleshoot it some more...but here is where i go "huhhhhh what now?"
i guess ill just keep tinkering and putting as much funk into whatever i can.

it would be awesome if the people at btwincap jumped on this...i see dscaler is on the list for support in the close future...but no driver dev's yet.

btw swan...you don't have to "OK?" with me...although i dont know ya from adam...i think i understand where you sit behind that keyboard...and it's not in axis teritory :-) OK? :-P

[Swan]

seem to work..but something is still wrong. when i capture at 720x480...it captures as taht...but it doesnt adjust the res before it captures...so in other words it just captures a 320x240 res at 720x480
What you see is not what you get in Videostudio. By that I mean that the preview window is very small, but the captured video will be 720 x 480 or whatever you set it too. Preview window size and the actual size (resolution) of the captured clip does not necessarily have to be the same in the software used for capturing. In fact, forcing the driver to do this (same resolution on preview and capturing) can cause problems. This is what happened when you fiddled with the Preview Pin in Amcap.

Did the VideoStudio-captured file have the resolution you'd set?


What you see, contrary to what alot of people have told me, what you see on the screen is exactly what you get after capture.
I don't understand this. In PowerVCR what you see when you watch TV (and also on the captured clips) is a deinterlaced image. The video is being deinterlaced on-the-fly by PowerVCR.
In Amcap, there is no such thing. It accesses the drivers directly, and as far as I know there is no deinterlacing.
This is the only explanation I can give you as to why watching incoming video looks different in these two programs.
And of course, Mpeg-2 compressed video and HuffYuv compressed video will look very different in terms of quality. :)

btw...that "digital look"...that went away when i started capturing in rgb 555 (16 bit) even on playback on the monitor...i might be lying on that because every now and then i see it...
Is there really any point in using anything but YUY2?

btw swan...you don't have to "OK?" with me...although i dont know ya from adam...i think i understand where you sit behind that keyboard...and it's not in axis teritory :-) OK? :-P
I don't understand what you're telling me here. Honestly, I don't.
I wrote "OK?" several times because I tried to convince you that I beleieved what you said. It's sometimes hard to get things across in written words, as opposed to when talking. If you'd heard the tone in my voice when I said "OK?" you'd have known that I meant "I trust what you are saying". I did not mean to sound cocky or anything.

Anyway, thanks for testing the VideoStudio patch. I will keep an eye on this card for sure. I'm always looking for better quality captures. And if new drivers enabled it to work with PowerVCR, I'd order one right away. :-)

/Swan

[\AX]

Another case of my horrible communication skills.

yeh i know what you meant...i just got the fact that i knew arond cross. sorry, you didn't have to explain that..sorry. if your are ever in doubt about how im trying to explain how i feel with you, or confused, just believe i think the best of you. So if you feel confused or dont understand...just understand i suk at getting some things across and understand i think the better of you.

sorry i feel really bad to put you in confusion like that.

anyhow...off the topic of my horrible communication. the card is going back. it will be a big player in the capturing world in the future im sure. but for now im going to stick with the pinnacle.

assuming all hardware and software are functioning as they should...what is the pro's and con's of using direct draw. Again this is assuming there is no conflict's and your system is 100% correct on all levels of hardware and software. i really don't know the good and bad things about it.

btw...i tried the driver for the prolink card aswell. it's the same driver...atleast for my card. so far i have tried the beta msi one, the latest msi one, and the latest prolink one. All work with this card but all yield the same problems and performance. also VideoStudio i managed to work out...but the quality was still bad...atleast worse than any other application...for me atleast.

oh btw about the yuy2 issue. I capture in rgb 16bit but in huffyuv it convert's it to yuy2.

[Roginator]

I got the XCapture card which is based on the same chip (but has no tuner).

VirtualVCR works fine after taking a minute or so to initialize. Alas, it only allows me to capture about 10 minutes on my Win98se system. Oddly, it allowed me to capture an almost 4GB avi. Perhaps if you have WinXP you can use the file system that allows unlimited file sizes?

I'm waiting on a key to let me try iuVCR which SHOULD work, since it's a WDM capture program. And it has multi-segment file capability which I need capturing in HuffYUV.

The picture quality is great. Now if iuVCR works, I'll be a happy nerd.

[\AX]

ive been rarely capturing anything lately with finals.

however your card is good. I have heard on several other boards that your card can provide better s-video image quality vs. mine. however it might be driver related because the people that say this say the my card will give the same qualtiy if i use the driver for your card. (play hdtv driver...whatever it is i cant remember)

however. see if you can capture at 720x480 in vdub for me using huffyuv and if you can...i'll pick one up.

however the new 9bit has supposedly less color bleeding and sharper picture. i will get this card when i can...low funds right now...extremely looooooow.

otherwise i have been trying to call Conexant...they dont care. However im calling them tommorrow and gonna try to talk to someone who can possibly give me answer's on where to get the datasheet's for this chip if i can get long distance access somehow. I have typed to many user's now about this card and it's chip design. Everybody loves the quality but it seems nobody is getting off easy. On every board that i see the discussions on this new 10bit, 9bit (phillips..maybe 10bit who knows) there is hardware problems...however i must say the phillips chip is the way to go right now. It can do everythign i have been b1tch'n about sinc ei got the card...but there seems to be some issues none the less with color contrary to what i have seen about less color bleeding.

Now i dont notice any color bleeding with our cards...do you??? i really dont so im not sure where this has came from. The card is awesome but horribly unsupported.

I recieved this emai from the creator of the btwincap during the discussion i had in this thread a month ago...this is interesting read this.

"
Hi...
I guess i won't be able to support that CX881 based card because
Conexant didn´t release the required datasheet... Perhaps i could ask
them
to see if they send me a copy of it... But i actually doubt they would
care.
In fact, the driver you are using WAS develeoped by Conexant itself...
The CX881 has a 10bit ADC converter, but won't let you capture in
10bit
mode, as no video display card is able to display such 10bit images...
In
fact, the only way to fully exploit those bits is to connect an
external
MEPG2 hardware encoder chip to the CX881. So, using any WDM / VFW
capture
program/codec you will only get 8bit (as the older bt8x8).
The CX881 will deliver an improved image (compared to the older
Bt8x8)
because the digital video processing stages of the CX881 were
improved...
And because your TV card uses a silicon tuner (it's a tuner in a
chip).. So
less noise sources are present in the video singal path.
I assume that if conexant releases the CX881 datasheets, support
for
your card could be added....

Regards,
Eduardo "



just recently i have been taking discussion up with this card at the msi forum...a kind moderator there who's handel is "gfilitti" forward a msg for me to the guys in taiwan at msi and this was there response...

" I have finished looking at the thread & I will forward your e-mail to the engineer involved.
What I can tell you now is that we designed the card based on the chipset design guide & therefore won’t be doing any hardware modifications.
I'm sorry I cannot provide the datasheet due to NDA (non disclosure agreement) with the chipset vendor
However, if the datasheet became public, it will be on their website (like Intel or VIA is doing) "



So there is a NDA involved in MSI...could be expected. However i must go to the source now.

the only other option would be to contact the DScaler dev's because they have some support for this card in the latest beta of DScaler. They must either have these sheet's or troubleshoot the hell out of it...either way they have some info.

im looking forward to getting this card on the role...more and more people buy our card with this new chip every day but the support down right sux.

best performance i read about is in iuVCR...which i dont and wont use.

please tell me how your card is performing...the 720x480 using huffyuv is all i want to do. your card and mine are equal as far as quality wise...so im interested HIGHLY

i gave up on this board for now because not enough people have these new card's with 10bit chips...vs the msi forum there is ABUNDANT post's about this card since it is a msi product. We share the same chip...and problems...or my card has problems.

hope to hear from you soon

\AX

[\AX]

just a bump to maybe shed a light no what i tried

[Roginator]

I was running into occasional problems using HuffYUV and iuVCR. I switched to the picvideo MJPEG codec at setting 19 and my computer is doing a better job of keeping up (1.4 GHz Athlon). Picture quality is great if the original quality is great.

I haven't tried it at 720x480 -- just 640x480.