The Simpsons: Fielding Suggestions

[JohnMK]

Hi there,

I'm ripping & encoding The Simpsons and am looking for some advice. For example, is Force Film good enough. When I play back a clip in GKnot I see that the original fps is indeed 24, but it's fudged a little. There are actually only 12 strictly discrete fps, then for the next frame, if there's movement, they move the background a little. Or at least, this is how it seems.

Also, which method for denoising would be best for this application? Convolution3d? Divx 5's built-in pre-processing? GKnot's passed little/normal/strong denoise avisynth function call? Something better?

Any advice you have to offer would be appreciated. I hope this is the right forum for this.

Thank you,

JohnMK

[OvERaCiD23]

When I ripped the Season 2 DVDs, I used Force Film. I tested IVTC using Decomb as well (also, Telecide().Decimate(mode=1, threshold=50), and Force Film provided smoother playback. There is little jerkiness, if at all.
As for filters, I used DivX5's built-in pre-processing on light, and it gave acceptable results. I wasn't going for superb quality, as I rarely watch these episodes (it's on TV so much!). Each episode was 175mb, 128kbps MP3 audio. I was satisfied, watching these on my TV is clearer than the episodes on FOX.

PS..search back in the forums for filtering for animation. there was a large post a few weeks ago about a combination of filters that provided excellent picture quality with minimal loss (Convolution3D was used, with some others also i believe).

[DJ Bobo]

As for 12 discrete fps, this is normal by cartoons and anime. Most Anime is made in 8 or 12fps (to save time... and nerves :D). Only camera pans and a few other senquences are done in 24fps.

Nevertheless full animated 24fps sequences are becoming more frequent in these years because of computer assistance, but I don't really like those full animated Animes, they are just scary, the animation is too smooth for my taste!

NB: if you get at least FILM 95% in DVD2AVI, use Force Film not IVTC.

[JohnMK]

Wow. I'm flabberghasted. You Forced FILM? DVD2AVI clearly shows Season 2, Episode 1 to be very much NTSC material, at least 80%. Forcing FILM on this leads to many obviously combed frames. The intro is progressive, but everything after that is pure interlaced. I'm aware that animation is supposed to be 24fps, but this would appear to be different.

Anyone -- some advice please?

[DJ Bobo]

Use IVTC then, it's as simple as that ;)

[JohnMK]

I'm trying to understand though why I should use that. What if this season is 15fps, doubled to 30fps?

OR

Why would 12fps animation + 12fps background swishes == 24fps animation, telecined to 29.970fps/30fps, appear as NTSC? I'm used to thinking it would naturally appear as FILM PROGRESSIVE. Yet, DVD2AVI clearly reports a preponderance/majority of NTSC/Interlaced frames, for the duration of the episode. On the face of it, leaving it at 29.970fps, but using FieldDeinterlace(), would be a possible solution. But if there's an elegant, correct way to get this down to 23.976fps, I would rather use that (IVTC).

[DJ Bobo]

It's just a strange behavior of their MPEG2 encoders. I also don't understand how they mix progressive and interlaced content on one stream. I got some Cowboy Bebop DVDs , they are like 70% FILM and 30% interlaced. Nevertheless, the anime is 100% 24fps. Don't pay too much attention to what DVD2AVI says. I mean I've seen many PAL DVDs which are progressive (PAL speed up), but are encoded in interlaced mode. So does this mean they have to be deinterlaced? no way! same here with your simpsons DVDs: DVD2AVI shows mixed stuff, it isn't mixed! it's just the encoder "fooling around", or better said: the one that encoded it was a fool! I'll never understand why 95% of all anime DVD are encoded in interlaced mode or mixed mode instead of 100% FILM progressive encoding. That feature is especially needed for bitrate consuming anime (or cartoon, but well, I don't like cartoons) and is rarely used! damn it!
Look at the DBZ DVDs, 100% NTSC, so what? does that mean they are real 30fps? no way, they are *ALL* 24fps!
And simpsons is 24fps for sure! if it was 30fps (or 15fps doubled or what so ever), you won't see the word "FILM" *AT ALL* in DVD2AVI!

[JohnMK]

I don't see the word FILM at all, after the intro-spiel. :D From time index 1 minute - end, it's pure NTSC. :D But, I suppose I should verify that one more time.

[JohnMK]

Wow, this is just getting uglier and uglier. There is FILM/Progressive content throughout the predominately NTSC material. My guess is that this is BADLY telecined. It's just horrible. :( How will I ever be able to recover the correct frames. :confused:

Forced FILM does NOT work. It leaves very nasty combing artifacts. So. I guess that means by definition I must use Decomb + Telecide() and Decimate(). Do you have a specific recommendation as to which parameters I should use?

[JohnMK]

Looking at an unprocessed DVD2AVI project file, in GordianKnot I found a scene clearly showing 4 combed frames in succession. Just more clues. Don't really know what that one means. So still the options are:

1) Bad telecine
2) It really is Interlaced NTSC 29.97fps.

Right?

[DJ Bobo]

As I told you above, what DVD2AVI is not always relevant, since as said many DVDs are encoded 100% NTSC and are originally 100% 24fps. After IVTC, you get perfectly smooth 24fps.
Especially on Anime, just try to think logically: can anybody draw an interlaced image? no! so it is 24fps *OR* 30fps. Mixed streams are *very* rare. I just got some Chobits episodes: the first episodes are 100% 24fps. Sometime later beginning from episode xy, only the opening + closing are still 24fps, the episode itself is progressive 30fps. Still, if they show a flashback from one of the first episodes, the animation in that part is 24fps (telecined to 30).

For IVTC, you better use ivtc 2.2 with
ivtc(44,11,95)

or to eliminate any remaining combing, ivtc & decomb combined that way:
ivtc(44,11,95)
fielddeinterlace()

If they don't work, you probably have the "Evangelion syndrome" which means you can't get correct progressive stream out of that DVD.

BTW, if you got 4 interlaced successive frames only once or two, this means nothing. It's probably a pattern change or something like this.

[manono]

Hi JohnMK-

You should read the DVD2AVI-IVTC Tutorial (http://www.doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm). There are some parts of it that help to explain what's going on with The Simpson's. DJ Bobo's comments are right on. Except that I might add that I think that Decomb can handle it also.;)

[JohnMK]

Okie dokie. Thanks for your help. I have read that Tutorial, many times now already, prior to posting this very thread. :D It gives good general advice, but it's always tempting, upon seeing what I'm seeing, to think what I have is a 'Special Case.' But maybe it's not. :D

[mtrooper]

I've got Region 2 DVDs of Season 1 and although interlacing looks bad simple, but (like manono suggested) Telecide() solves everything :)

And for noise removal I used Convolution3d with matrix 1 with default settings, if I remember correctly, and got nice results at res 576xYYY with 2 audio tracks (160kbit abr mp3 and original AC3 with commentaries).

edit: fixed typos :D

[DJ Bobo]

If mtrooper says that the PAL Box got clean after using Telecide alone, Simpsons is definetely 24fps (if it was 30fps, you'll never get progressive PAL out of it!)

[JohnMK]

Okay I'll take your word for it. Thank you kindly for your advice.