Jerky playback of 23.976 fps on PAL TV via ATI RADEON VE

[arminio]

I have ATI RADEON VE with TV OUT and I have problem with playback of DivX with 23.x fps on my PAL (25 fps) TV.

I assume that problem occurs becasue of fps conversion from 23.x to 25 (PAL).

Now, is there any solution to this ? Is it possible to change framerate of original AVI to 25 fps (without loosing A/V sync) or maybe there is some way to speedup playback to 25 fps (I tried several DivX player but none of them can speedup to desired fps value) ?

[DJ Bobo]

You don't have to recompress the video, just change the frame rate in VirtualDub to 25fps, check video is on "direct stream copy", check audio is on "no audio" and save to a new AVI. This will take only some minutes.

Now load the original AVI into AVI2WAV and extract the sound, and convert it to WAV. For example, if it is MP3, rename the extracted file to something.mp3, open the file in RazorLame und click "decode".

Now use Prosoniq TimeFactory to speed up the sound (check your PM for this). The factor will be 95,904%.
This will take quite a long time. On my P3 @667MHz, it takes about 3 times the duration of the audio file if it is Stereo.

If you're planning to burn this on a CD, compress the new WAV to MP3 using your favourite MP3 encoder to a suitable bitrate (I always use RazorLame) and mux it in NanDub with the 25fps-AVI.
If not, just mux the new WAV with the 25fps-AVI in VirtualDub.
You file will be PAL-TV compatible.

[arminio]

Many thanks DJ Bobo !

I'll try this ...

P.S. Nice to see a fine useage of mine AVI2WAV tool here :)

[DJ Bobo]

I thank YOU! I never thought, you was the "real" Arminio!
Thanks many times for that very usefull tool, I use it very often and I'm very satisfied with it!

[arminio]

Yes ... I am "the real one" :)

And I am glad that AVI2WAV helps you ...

Also, I will try your tips - it is nice idea to stretch audio to fit 25 fps and join it later with AVI to get AVI with 25 fps.
In the meantime, I found some tool that can do a framerate change "on-the-fly" - it is called DivXG400 ... it is made gor G-force cards but author said it can be used on other cards so I will try it to see how it works (at least for playback).

[arminio]

Well, DivXG400 didn't helped - jerkyness in panning scenes is still there (even worser - in larger intervals but more obvious) :(
Converting method is a good solution but audio will be deteriorated (MP3->WAV->MP3) ...

Any more ideas ? Is there any player that can speedup playback ?

[ppera2]

DivXG400 works by me very fine in this case. Are you sure that you set it correct ?
BSPlayer can also speedup playback, but I don't think that it will help - by me it has bad TV out.

[atcronin]

or you could buy a 8500 or 9700, they got good conversion.

but i think theres only more simplerer way.
if your tv supports ntsc, just get a ntsc bios for your radeon. then you can have ntsc output and shouldnt have any probs, i would presume atleast.

[arminio]

to ppera2:

I think I set DivXG400 well (tried several combinations) and jerkyness is actually less frequent - but it still exists. It occurs more rare but when occur, looks even worser than without this conversion. What player you use ? Maybe player I use (radlight) won't work well with DivXG400 ?
Also, BSPlayer can't speedup for desired speed (only in fixed intervals :( )

to atcronin:

NTSC output won't help (I tried :( ) - 23.976 is pretty lower than 29.9/30 (NTSC) so jerkiness still occurs ...

Now, I found ZOOM player which can speedup playback for desired value and, by putting value 1.04 as increment index, Divx with 23.0976fps plays excelent on TV (no jerkyness or really slighly, almost unnoticeable at all on all tested scenes with "heavy" camera panning and heavy jerkyness under normal playback) - but player is generally pretty messy to use and has no support for subtitles (and I don't like external subtitle filter like VOBsub or DivXG400 - they can't put tiles outside picture :( ) ... anybody know some decent player that allow to put playback speed on desired value ?

[ppera2]

I use WinMplayer 7, and file mplayer2, not that huge mplayer what is good only for music.
I think that you should try it. With DivXG400 you have everything what need - subtitle, A/R setting etc...
Simple player speedup will never get exact 25 fps, intention is not sync. just possibility to watch film faster or slower.

[arminio]

Originally posted by ppera2
I use WinMplayer 7, and file mplayer2, not that huge mplayer what is good only for music.
I think that you should try it. With DivXG400 you have everything what need - subtitle, A/R setting etc...
Simple player speedup will never get exact 25 fps, intention is not sync. just possibility to watch film faster or slower.


I use mplayer (6.4 - 7.x is too "resource eating" thing :) ) but it has no support for subtitles (as I said, I don't like external DirectShow filters like DivXG400 and VobSub for subtitles becasue they put them into picture while players allow to move them below, in black borders, which suits better when playing 2.35:1 movies).

I know that speedup won't give 25fps but it somehow helps and give great result in playing 23.x on PAL TV (as I said - I speedup for 1.04 times which, mathematically "produce" 25 fps: 23.976 X 1.04 = approx. 25) while real conversion using DivXG400 still produce jerkyness ... :(

[ppera2]

Originally posted by arminio

I use mplayer (6.4 - 7.x is too "resource eating" thing :) ) but it has no support for subtitles (as I said, I don't like external DirectShow filters like DivXG400 and VobSub for subtitles becasue they put them into picture while players allow to move them below, in black borders, which suits better when playing 2.35:1 movies).

I

Resource eating is not WMP 7, but it's main player. Use mplayer2 - it is in same directory (I talked about it already).
DivXG400 can place subtitles in black borders, you need only to give same name to subtitle as to AVI (or something like movie.EN.sub ). Then it will add bars at upper and bottom side...
I think that instead talking what you like and what not you should try it carefuly... DivXG400 is designed for work with WMPlayer btw.

[DJ Bobo]

VobSub also allows repositioning in black bars, lower, higher, as you want. Just enable "extend to 4:3" and you can then also click "override placement" and put it on 91% or 92% to get it even lower.

[((( atom )))]

@arminio:

i saw you have an ati radeon ve.
could you please tell me, how the tv-output is? i am having massive trouble with the same card over here. don't know, if you saw my thread: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34667

i would be very interrested to know if you had similar problems.

greetings..

[arminio]

To ppera2 ...

>DivXG400 can place subtitles in black borders, you need only to give
>same name to subtitle as to AVI (or something like movie.EN.sub ).
>Then it will add bars at upper and bottom side...

But I HAVE AVI and SUB file with the same name - DivXG400 opens it fine and display WITHIN picture - see, AVI I play has no black bars so it is normal that filter display text within it (black bars are added by player in fullscreen mode, later).

>I think that instead talking what you like and what not you should
>try it carefuly...

Don't you think I tried everything that cross my mind before posting and bothering everyone here ? :(

... & DJBobo:

I did't tried "extent to 4:3" because I thought it will stretch image to fill screen instead keep original aspect ratio ... but, if it will stretc it with correct aspect ratio (fill other part of picture with black bars) - will it do that resizing fine ? I will try ...

to (((atom))):

My TV out works fine. I replied to that thread with my ideas but nothing new comes to my mind ... :(
Did you problem persisst with all playback (diffrent codecs, MPEGS ...) ?

[ppera2]

arminio: just check 'use leftover space...' in 'picture' tab.

[arminio]

Thanks - this works - subs now can be placed in black bars (filter make black bars fine).

But, now I stumbled to new problem - speedup really playback video in "fake" 25fps (DivXG400 reports fps rate as 25 instead original 23.976!) and playback is great (I tested over 30 minutes of video with heavy panning scenes where A/V sync was perfect).

BUT - subtitles are totally out of sync ! I assume that reason for this is that DivXG400 use original framerate to display subtitles and speeding of playback changes this and audio is totally out of sync with subntitles (progresivly - at start is fine but, as playback goes, it goes out of sync more and more). The same problem is with VOBSub filter and with different type of subtitles (I tried frame-based SUB, time-based SRT and SSA ...) :(

Now, only solution would be to have player that can play video in desired speed with support for subtitles where it will display them according to playback speed (Radlight sync A/V with subs correct in faster playback but there is no posibility to set custop playback rate - only player I found on Internet is ZOOM player where you can set custom playback rate and it does not support subtitles :( ) or, to convert subtitles from 23.976 to 25 fps (I tried with several subtitle tools like SUBConv, Subtool ... but each of them gives totally diferent results, all incorrect at playback).

If anybody know some decent player with custom playback rate and support for subtitles or maybe some subtitle tool that can propperly convert between framerates or another directshow filter for displaying subtitles that might help ?

[Ookami]

Hello Arminio...

Er, I cannot help you with the player thingy (only use MP 6.4 or Sasami2k), but back in the day when I still used AVIs and txt based subs I used Pawel Luty's tool DVD SUBRipper for all those conversion and it worked quite well.

Also, Psyche's SubAdjust was one of the few tools that worked in most cases.

But, subtitles from the web were mostly done horrible and were very often uncompatible and mostly it was not worth the hassle.

More subtitle tools are listed here:

http://ookami.videoxone.de/elist/subtitle.html

Hope this helped.

Cheers,

Mijo.

[ppera2]

I don't have any problems with sub sync when use framerate conv. of DivXG400. SRT, subviewer, microdvd - all work very well.

Arminio: koristish li verziju 2.7 ?

[arminio]

'Opa! Pa ti pricas hrvatski ! Odakle si ?
Ipak, nastavljam na engleskom da i drugi razumiju :)


- on English:

>I don't have any problems with sub sync when use framerate conv. of
>DivXG400. SRT, subviewer, microdvd - all work very well.

I don't have problems too when I use internal conversion in DivXG400 - but that conversion does not solve jerkyness in my case (actually, it does not remove it compleltely - it is still present but not frequent as without this option, as I already excplained, but when it occur it is more visible /harder/).
So, I do not use that method - instead of that, I use ZOOM player that can speedup playback to 25fps but then subtitles that DivXG400 display are out of sync with picture because this filter /and VOBSUB too/ acts like playback is still 23.976 even if it is detected in DivXG400 as 25fps).

I tried to convert subtitles to 25fps but this won't help too because it desync is progressive and time marks are the same (playback is faster - time positions are not changed so I must use original framerate in subs). Only thing that help is to have player with speed up possibility and internal subtitle display which will work correct (I tested on some players that can speedup in 50% or more and have subtitles support and subtitles were correctly displayed in speedup of 50%).

>Arminio: koristish li verziju 2.7 ?

For non-Croatians: Do I use version 2.7 ?
Yes. I do.

[Chibi Jasmin]

Originally posted by arminio
So, I do not use that method - instead of that, I use ZOOM player that can speedup playback to 25fps

Could you tell me, please, how to make Zoom Player play a clip with a defined frame rate? Thanx in advance!

[DJ Bobo]

@ arminio
Use VobSub Cutter which comes in the VobSub package. Load the subtitle there, click change fps, from 23,976 to 25, and save to a new file, that's it.

[arminio]

to Chibi Jasmin:

In Player Options set:

- under "setting" select "playback" and uncheck all options related to "reset play-rate ..."
- in "values and tools" select "playback" and under "media fast forward rate" put value 1.0427 (25/23.976=1.0427)

Now, after starting. playback, use "fast forward" and playback will be in "fake" 25 fps


to DJ Bobo:

Conversion won't help because after conversion to 25fps, position of titles are different than at 23.976 but they are actually still at the same points on 25 as they are on 23.976 because framerate is not actually changed - playback speed is just increased.
By some reason, DivXG400 and Vobsub se its own timer to display titles and not real timestamps from player and there is delay (they show subs as playback is in normal speed instead increased)

[DJ Bobo]

If playback speed is increased, I don't see why the VobSub 25fps subtitles shouldn't be in synch.
I make this conversion very often, and the subtitles are perfectly in synch after conversion in VobSub Cutter. All Timestamps in the new file are corrected. No problems at all.

[arminio]

The thing is - timestamps MUST stay the same and VOBSUB (or DivXG400) need to display subs according to player timer and not their own timer.
Problem is that filters acts like playback is in normal speed.

Now, when I convert subtitles to 25fps I get totally diferrent timestamps that might vary from few seconds up to minute as movie goes and regarding to original timestamps in 23.976. And when I play movie faster to match 25fps, player timer goes faster and subs are still on their original timeplaces (this is only faster playback - not real 25fps where time will pass in normal speed andt frames would be on different timestamps).

At start of playback, filter reset its internal timer to match player timer but after that, it doesn't continue to use player "increasing" but its own - so time within filter goes in normal speed but player timer goes faster due to speedup (you can check this if you turn on OSD/dislay/video time/elapsed time in DivXG400 - you will se internal filter timer and then compare it with player timer to see the difference)

So, at start of playback, filter reset its internal timer and adjust it to player timer but after that it continue to counts time by its own "algorithm" (normal speed - not faster like player do) and does not match player time which produce bigger and bigger difference and progressive desync.

Solution would be if filters timing routine for displaying subs can match to player timer - that will do perfect sync.

[DJ Bobo]

Well, I tried it right now on ZoomPlayer, the subs were almost on synch and I used the modified 25fps subtitles from VobSub Cutter.
The desynch is because the player isn't accelerating to exactly 25fps, but to 24,9x fps or 25,0x fps, that's why it will never be accurate.
And ZoomPlayer isn't giving fake 25fps, it's giving true (!) 25fps! (well as said 24,9x or 25,0x). This has nothing to do with timing, it's just ZoomPlayer that isn't precise enough.
The best solution to this problem would be to convert the subtitles into the MicroDVD format which doesn't save timestamps but frame numbers. Frame numbers aren't changed, no matter what framerate you change to.

The best solution remains the one I provided above, using TimeFactory to accelerate the sound. Nevertheless, the quality of this method is superior to the on-the-fly method, because ZoomPlayer doesn't do a pitch correction and all voices sound like mickey mouse all of a sudden!
And of course, the TimeFactory method will give you 100% synch video+audio+sub, garanteed!
For the recompression, I would suggest ABR encoding to preserve as much quality as possible.

[arminio]

About MicroDVD format - I come to that idea too and tried but misteriously, it doesn't help :(
Subs are still goes out of sync after some time of playback if playback is faster than normal fps rate (although, filter should display them correctly because it need to read frames, not timestamps) ...

About pitch problem - it is true that it is faster but it is pretty acceptable in my case (23.976 to 25fps - only 1.0427 time faster). I tested on several AVIs and sound is not so much faster to sound like Mickey :)

But, offcourse, "off-line" conversion with TimeFactory is perfect soulution but too much to work with tons of AVIs I have ...

[Chibi Jasmin]

@arminio: Thanx, clever solution...

@all:

I didn't go through this thread carefully to know, if this has been said already, but what I use successfully for ages now, including subs is one of the following two possibilities, you just have to display the subs with the same filter, you do the conversion with and you don't have to change anything in subs, video or audio...

1. Use DivXG400's FPS conversion option and display subs with DivXG400 (doesn't work with multichannel sound, video is slow-motion then)
2. Use DVobSub's Force FPS option and display subs with it (after loading the movie you have to reset the fps you want, cause it overwrite the previously entered with the movie's one on opening, also works on multichannel sound.

Hope this helps...this way you can leave the 23.976 fps video and audio and subs as they are...

[arminio]

>1. Use DivXG400's FPS conversion option and display subs with
>DivXG400 (doesn't work with multichannel sound, video is slow-motion
>then)

As I explained, DivXG400 displays subtitles according to his own timer which goes in normal speed - no matter how video goes (if you speed up or slow down video, filter timer will still go in normal sped so subs will be desynced).
FPS conversion otpion works fine but won't help in this case (speedup from player and fps conversion from filter produce more mess)

>2. Use DVobSub's Force FPS option and display subs with it (after
>loading the movie you have to reset the fps you want, cause it
>overwrite the previously entered with the movie's one on opening,
>also works on multichannel sound.

This sounds good ! I used older (less CPU consuming) version of VOBSUB that has no "force FPS" option ... I will download latest and try ...
Thanks !

[arminio]

VOILA !

This is it !

I installed latest VobSub (v2.18) and by turning option "playback rate" (at "timing" tab), correclty setup faster playback from ZOOM player produces 25fps and well synched subs !
I tested on short clip (about 10 minutes) and during entire clip, subs were correctly displayed 9last time desync occured after minute or less). I assume that entire movie will be fine too (will test tonight).

Also, I suggest to set speedup index to 1.0428 in ZOOM player - playback is even smoother (VObsub detect 25.0021fps and ATI playback on TV is even smoother) than for 1.0427 (24.9998 in VOBSub)

Thanks for all for suggestions and tips (especially to Dj Bobo for "offline" conversion tips and Chibi Jasmin for info about fps settings in latest VobSub) !
I think I solved this for now :)

[Chibi Jasmin]

Originally posted by arminio
VOILA !

This is it !

I installed latest VobSub (v2.18) and by turning option "playback rate" (at "timing" tab), correclty setup faster playback from ZOOM player produces 25fps and well synched subs !
I tested on short clip (about 10 minutes) and during entire clip, subs were correctly displayed 9last time desync occured after minute or less). I assume that entire movie will be fine too (will test tonight).

Also, I suggest to set speedup index to 1.0428 in ZOOM player - playback is even smoother (VObsub detect 25.0021fps and ATI playback on TV is even smoother) than for 1.0427 (24.9998 in VOBSub)

Thanks for all for suggestions and tips (especially to Dj Bobo for "offline" conversion tips and Chibi Jasmin for info about fps settings in latest VobSub) !
I think I solved this for now :)

Glad, it's working for you...I always lived under the impression, that subtitle sync will also be maintained by DivXG400, if you display subs with it and use its own speedup option....well, I might be wrong, but well, you got it working, so what...

[ppera2]

Originally posted by Chibi Jasmin


Glad, it's working for you...I always lived under the impression, that subtitle sync will also be maintained by DivXG400, if you display subs with it and use its own speedup option....well, I might be wrong, but well, you got it working, so what...

Must tell that I don't have any problems with sub sync and DivXG400.

Maybe it depends from installed codecs, directshow filters etc...

[arminio]

Everything is fine with DivXG400 and sub sync unless you speedup playback - then subs goes out of sync (DivXG400 shows them as playback is in normal speed) ...