Calculator for CCE single-pass VBR mode

[FamousPerson]

I wrote this calculator for myself, but thought I'd post it here in case it could help anyone else.

When I re-encode DVDs, I follow Trilight's method, and I only ever use CCE. Also, I only ever do single pass VBR encodes. I have a 53" 16:9 hi-def TV and have never been able to tell the difference.

So, if you do not do single-pass VBR encodes, you can stop reading because this calculator will not help you.

If you do, however, then feel free to use it. All you have to do is tell it how many frames your movie has, and it will tell you what to set CCE's MIN bitrate setting to. Several settings are hard-coded right now, like MAX bitrate, etc, because those are the only settings I use, and as I said, I wrote it for myself.

Anyway, here it is. If you find it useful, let me know.


cceguesser.zip (11.8 K) (http://www.vanhouwelingen.com/marcvh/cceguesser/cceguesser.zip)

(requires VB6 runtimes (http://www.vanhouwelingen.com/marcvh/today/vbrun60sp3.exe))

[lrosado]

why is it you dont recommend it to people that do multiple passes? Isn't it better to do multipass? By the way, impressive tool.

[FamousPerson]

It's not that I don't recommend it for multiple-pass, it's just that tool won't work for that. All it does is tell you what single-pass settings to use in order to use the max space on a DVD-R or DVD+R.

(Multi-pass I'm sure will produce better results, but I'm satisfied with what single pass does, so I don't do multi-pass)

[lrosado]

got it! thanks for the tool, will use it in future projects.

[HomerJ]

FamousPerson,

Well done, I've dowloaded the file, I'll give it a try over the next few days and report back.

It sure looks easy, reminds me of "DVD Calculator"

HomerJ :D

[benf2]

HI,
Could you make a change in the program to not gray out the Q box and max bitrate?

I too only do single VBR, but i use a different Q factor(usually 37)and max bitrate of 9000, and would find your tool handy if that change was made.

Good Start:)

[FamousPerson]

No, I can't. The calculations it makes are based on real sample data I collected. All samples were run at Q 60 and Max 8000.

The only way I could add that would be if I knew the effect that changing Q and MAX had on the end result, and I just don't have any data on it. If you do, please let me know...

[tyee]

FamousPerson
After looking at your calculator, I think your calculations indicate that the average bitrate of the final encode is going to be approximately equal to the CCE minimum value you enter here. From the calculations I do all the time, yours indicates this. Yes??

tyee

[FamousPerson]

Yes, exactly. I know it doesn't make sense, but it always seems to be very close to right.

See this thread...

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34445

[HomerJ]

FamousPerson,

I've tried your calculator, unfortunately, the resultant VOBs were somewhat over size. (used Black Hawk Down)

I tried it 3 times, varying the minimum bitrate, as well as the "cushion" value. Frame rate is 25.

Any clues ?

I'll give it another go in a couple of weeks, after my holidays.

HomerJ :confused:

[FamousPerson]

Hmmm. Could be the high action. I have Black Hawk Down, I'll try it.

I may have to add a "High Action" check box!

[FamousPerson]

HomerJ:

I tried Black Hawk Down (NTSC, region 1). Here's a synopsis, please tell me if this matches what you got:

Total Frames: 207654
Audio File Size (English only): 462 MB
Subtitles (English only): 232 MB

Leaving the cushion at 100MB, the calculator recommended a minimum bitrate of 3664. It predicted the m2v size would be 3.7831 GB.

When I used this setting of 3664, the m2v actual size was 3.8016, about 19 MB over the predicted value.

Is this what you got too?


FamousPerson

[FamousPerson]

HomerJ:

Oh, I just realized you're using PAL. That may be where my calculations are off (we Americans sometimes forget that the other 90% of the world doesn't necessarily do things our way :) ).

If you send me all the details of your experience, maybe you can help me make this thing PAL-friendly.

[HomerJ]

FamousPerson,

Thanks for looking into it for me, unfortunately I no longer have access to Black Hawk, (well, not an original anyway :) )

Also, I'm just off on my holiday for a couple of weeks, so won't be around much.

Looking at you figures, I do agree with the of frames, although the audio was a bit higher at 494mB (AC3).

I didn't have any subtitles etc. so I set that value at 0.

Hope that helps.

As soon as I get back, I'll post again.

HomerJ :)

[FamousPerson]

I have made a few improvements to the program. Also, I made it slightly more conservative in its calculations for movies that have higher action.


cceguesser.zip (15K) (http://www.vanhouwelingen.com/marcvh/cceguesser/cceguesser.zip)

[whirlpool]

For anyone who is interested, With a Q factor of 30, and VBR 2 passes, Avge Rate 3900, film only, the resultant reauthored film just fits a DVD+R and the quality is excellent.

[FamousPerson]

HomerJ:

I have a new PAL-friendly version out now, in case you'd like to give it another try-

cceguesser.zip (http://www.vanhouwelingen.com/marcvh/cceguesser/cceguesser.zip)

[HomerJ]

FamousPerson,

Many thanks for that, (just returned from 2 fabulous weeks).

I'll give it a go over the next few days and report back.

HomerJ :D

[HomerJ]

FamousPerson,

My apologies for not replying sooner, just to let you know, you're PAL version looks quite good. I've only used it once so far (that shows how busy I've been) and it got my final DVD to just under the 4.38GB size (movie was Training Day).

I'll give a bit more detail when I next use it.

Many Thanks for the great tool.

HomerJ :D

[PIRATE]

And i have got some problems sometimes....

The problem vas when entering all values for some movies in PAL i end up on a negative bitrate resault... for example the movie moulin rouge i got a -1280 bitrate...but when i pushed the NTSC button i got a +2800 bitrate suggestion.

[FamousPerson]

The negative bitrate just means your destination size is too small (at this point, try multipass). Changing to NTSC made it think you now had many less frames to encode, and that it would fit.

[PIRATE]

Because i just used 2300 insted of ntsc:s recommended 2800 and the size was nearly correct...have happend sometimes but i think the frames have something to do with it...i just came across some frame settings that made the calculator go rampage :)

[FamousPerson]

Oh yeah, there was a bug that did something like that in the versions prior to 1.0.3. If you're using an earlier version than 1.0.3, then that explains it.

lastest version... (http://www.vanhouwelingen.com/marcvh/cceguesser/cceguesser.zip)

[PIRATE]

Im Using 1.0.3....i probably found some movies that still is bugging your calc :)

[wfn1]

FP,

is it possible to develop a version for multi-pass vbr mode that would calculate the avg bitrate in the future? i'm using one pass vbr to build the .vaf file and then multipass vbr with 1 pass for the final encode (robshot method). right now i'm using dvtool for my avg bitrate calculations but your utility looks very good and i'd like to use it.

[FamousPerson]

wfn1:

Yes, it's possible, but hardly needed. If you want to calculate avg bitrate for multipass, just take whatever size you want your .m2v to end up (in bytes), divide by the number of seconds your movie is long, then divide by 125 (yes 125, not 128). CCE's output will be within a couple megabytes.

I didn't think to add that because of all the calculators out there that already do that, but maybe I will anyway...

[kolonel]

I have been using this proggy for a while with great success. It truly works, great tool.

Rob

[FamousPerson]

wfn1:

Because it wasn't too hard to do, I went ahead and added it. You can now select "Single Pass VBR" or "Multi-Pass VBR". The Multi-Pass mode, since it involves no "Guessing", is dead-on accurate.

I also made a couple adjustments:

1. Lowered overhead. I made overhead (especially for subtitles) more accurate. This means the output is more precise, but also means you will go over 4.37 if you do not allow a cushion for authoring

2. Changed the default cushion to 120MB. Basic authoring uses about 110 MB. Adding menus, etc, uses more.

You can download it here:

CCEGuesser.zip (http://www.vanhouwelingen.com/marcvh/cceguesser/cceguesser.zip)

[wfn1]

Thank you so much!

[FamousPerson]

I just made a few more enhancements. No new calculations, but added a graphical representation of free space and the program now remembers your most recent settings.


CCEGuesser.zip (http://www.vanhouwelingen.com/marcvh/cceguesser/cceguesser.zip)

[Jafco]

Thanks for such a useful tool; I've used it several times and had excellent results.

However. (Isn't there always a "however?")

On "Antitrust," it ended up estimating 4640 as the minimum for one-pass, with a resultant m2v of about 3,900,000,000. However, I ended up with almost a gigabyte smaller than that. Maybe it's a dramatically low-action movie?

Thanks again, and that's just FYI. After all, the encode looks great, so what the heck!

[FamousPerson]

Jafco,

That sounds very odd. It is not uncommon for the file to be smaller than predicted, as I've got it set to "worst case" - that is, higher action, but to be that much lower? Even if there was little action, CCE shouldn't drop below the MIN bitrate you set for it, which it clearly sounds like it did.

Well, at least you didn't go over...

How was the quality?

[aa3k]

Just wanted to say its a great program

Thanks

[Reggatta Mondatta]

FamousPerson,

Thank you very much for a very useful tool. I used it for Black Hawk Down and the results were exactly on 4.3 GB. The resulting quality is great.

I do have a question and apologies if it has been answered, but a search did not yield an 'easy' answer. Is there a relatively easy method/tool to use to determine the number of frames in a movie? I have the feeling I have been looking right past the answer, but I clearly <G> cannot see it. TIA.

Best regards,

RM

[FamousPerson]

Yes, CCE will tell you the # frames as soon as you drop an AVI or AVS onto it.

Glad to hear the program works for you.

[benf2]

I know u cant please everybody, but still nice to hope... more options for the "Q" setting... if u dont want to make it variable for us to select...how about adding 40 to the options... All i use is single vbr.... quality usualy 5-17 range and Q around 38-40. I would settle for a 40 only setting... I know a few people that use 40.


just a thought

[Reggatta Mondatta]

Geez! If it was a snake I would be dead :D!
I knew that information was somewhere obvious, but not that obvious. Thanks much.

RM

[aftertaste]

I am new to DVD been encoding SVCD for awhile now and this is all alittle new to me since i have bought a dvd burner. Now to throw away all my vcds and start over :) now forgive me if this question has been answered but as for this calculator all i want to do is encode the movie no menu's no extras. Why is the defualt Destination size set to 4,3772 when 4.7 will fit on a dvd-5. Sorry if i sound like a newbie on this quesion. BTW, Im glad i stumbled upon this tread sense i have been wanting something that makes single pass a one stop shop :)

[FamousPerson]

A DVD-5 cannot hold 4.7 GB. The max it can hold is 4700000000 bytes, which translates to 4.3772 GB.

[ianinmalaga]

Hi there, bit of a newbie here but just have a small question about the CCEGuesser and if I am doing it correctly.. I hope someone can help or confirm.

What is cushion in the guesser app? Is this like a give or take ... If I am doing a multi VBR Pass .. can I reduce this to 25Mb or even 0?

I managed to do the following so I think I am on the right lines..

I ripped everything out of the VOBS using ifoedit and just left the main movie and 1 ac3 (english) soundtrack. I then created a dvd2avi project and extract the audio (ac3)...

I then ran the VFAPI app to create an avi from my d2v project, then I loaded this into CCE. I calculated with the Guesser app that the average bit rate is 4545 for my film. The way I did this was entered the size of the AC3 that dvd2avi extracted and entered the frames of the film and changed the cushion to 25 megs. I entered Min bitrate as 0 and max bitrate as 9800.

I selected 2 pass VBR in CCE and encoded. I should have an m2v file once finished which I beleive I remux back into IFOEDIT and finally I click GET VTS in ifoedit so that it will play in a standalone player

Anyone confirm that I am on the right lines, I hope so.. Its a little confusing but I am sure once I have it correct then future encodes will be easy..

Thanks in advance for any help or info

Regards

Ian

[FamousPerson]

Ian,

You are definitely on the right track.

A couple things, though:

When you re-author (create VOBS), either with IFOEdit or, say, Maestro, a certain amount of overhead (about 110 megs) will be added. This is what the cushion is for. If you are doing multi-pass, set the cushion to 120MB and your final product should fit nicely onto an DVD with about 10 megs to spare.

Also, in CCE, lower your max bitrate to 9000 or even 8000. DVD standards allow for a max of 9800, but this is video+audio together. Just to be safe, lower it. Trust me, you won't see any difference...

[mck3nzi3]

Trust FamousPerson and trust me, exspecially if you re-authoring video and audio with IFOEdit lower your max birate to 8000 if you don't wont any "too frame dropped" error, and exspecially if you want to put in some subtitles track.
Your video quality don't change (on human eye only) :D

[ianinmalaga]

Thanks everyone for your input.. I am now redoing it using your advised settings..

The last time it went from 5.4 gigs to 10.5 !! ermmm wrong way!! not what I was expecting..

1 question. When in CCE I choose 2 pass ES. And enter the average bitrate that the cceguesser gives me. Do you have to run 1 pass first and enter any specific bitrate or just set it to 2 pass and then enter the Averge bitrate and let it run for 2 passes?

Thanks again for any tips..

I am so close but yet so far <grin>

Ian

[FamousPerson]

You should only have to enter the AVG bitrate one time. Since you already ran it once, you probably already have a .vaf file. KEEP IT. It will save you some time when you re run it.

If you do multi-pass, AVG bitrate should be the ONLY setting that affects size of the output. Set it to whatever CCEGuesser tells you. Also, make sure you have the fps set correctly in CCEGuesser.

[ianinmalaga]

ahhh this is where I got confused I think...

In video encoding mode I entered Multipass VBR Elementary stream Mpeg 2 and entered 2 pass in VBR passes and then entered average bit rate from cceguesser.. and waited until the 2 passes finish and thats it...

but thats wrong?

So what I should do is enter single pass vbr elemeary stream Mpeg2 and don't enter any average bit rate and then onece that is finished I then choose multipass and enter VBR passes = 1?? and then enter the average bit rate then and not before..

sorry for acting dumb here, is this correcT??

Ian

[ianinmalaga]

and in Q i leave as 60 and min to 0 and max change to 8000 as you said earlier..

Then when I come back to do a multipass ... set it to 1 VBR times... and enter 0 for min 8000 for max and the average given from cceguesser?

Regards

Ian

[FamousPerson]

You don't need to "come back to do a multi-pass". Just simply do a multi-pass. I don't think there is a Q setting in multipass.

0 and 8000 are good for min and max, and set your # passes to 1 or 2 (1 should actually be fine).

Also set video quality to 5.

[snotuk]

hi,
when i try to back my copy of "from hell".useing cceguesser my .m2v size comes out at 2.66 gig or there abouts.
when the guesser says estimated .m2v size is 3.61 gig.
i would like to hit this figure to fill the max space i can on my dvd-r,but have tryed a few times with no luck.i know this film is very dark
so could this be taking into account.
any help would be great.

film - from hell r1 (ntsc force film checked)
mpv size - ive fogot
audio size - 660mb (dts)
single pass vbr
framesize - 175996
q setting - 60
min - 0
max - 8000

OR BEFORE I FOGET THIS HAS ALL SO HAPPEND ON 2 OTHER FILMS,
THE ABYSS (PAL)
Independence Day (PAL)

[FamousPerson]

The truth is CCEGuesser doesn't do so well with PAL. For some reason, CCE treats PAL much differently in single pass VBR. I would suggest you use your VAF from the single pass and do a one-pass "multipass". Then the size will be exact.

[ianinmalaga]

FamousPerson,

can you confirm if I am doing PAL correctly because I noticed your last msg.

I am using PAL and doing multipass. I was trying to read between the lines on your last msg and you say there is a problem with Single Pass?? So I presume if I do multipass (2 passes) on a PAL .. the size should be pretty much dead on correct

P.s. I managed to do the NTSC film but I had some major problem muxing the m2v file back into ifoedit .. the video became jerky .. So I ditched that and I am now using DVD Maestro without problems so far...

Thanks again for your help

Ian