Upcoming standards

[TetarZ]

I think we should put a thread here about those people who have
tested upcoming stuff.


-Tarkin (http://www.xiph.org/ogg/index.html) (open source)Uses (VP3 (http://www.vp3.com) + ogg)
EverWicked's guide (http://www.everwicked.com/content/Tarkin_Guide/) on setting it up.

-Theora (http://www.theora.org/)(open source) should be to mpeg what OGG was to MP3(ie:a real killer)
EverWicked's interview (http://www.everwicked.com/content/Articles/Theora.Project.Announcement.23062002/) of the man in charge of the project

-MPEG4 (http://mpeg.telecomitalialab.com/)(Not free at all!!:devil: )Successor of Mpeg.Allows you to use aac (http://www.aac-audio.com/).I still think we should boycot it though:it's not better than OGM and way to proprietary.
Doom9's Guide (http://www.doom9.org/mp4.htm)

-VP5 (http://www.on2.com/vp5.php3)(not free)little brother of VP3.If vp3 is good enough to be used by Xiph this should be worth a glance.

-Mcf (http://mcf.sourceforge.net ) andXCD (http://xcd.sourceforge.net/):Two forks of the same project that has already brought to use the great RiffCDXa filter(or at least it would be great if it did work on my 'puter).Post about the rest of the project

Post any experience/info you have on those project.

P.S.(RealVideo9 Quicktime6 WMP...we're not included I don't know if they are Bleeding Edge but I don't think so.And they force you to use crappy players)

P.P.S.:If you have a hard time finding the soft you need for the audio checkouthttp://www.inf.ufpr.br/~rja00/

[Koepi]

-MPEG4(Not free at all!! )Successor of Mpeg.Allows you to use aac.I still think we should boycot it though:it's not better than OGM and way to proprietary.
Doom9's Guide


A-ha. Since I'm involved a little bit with the coding of an mpeg4 codec and the coding of OGM muxers, could you please explain me the correlation here?

[Acaila]

I think you have a few things messed up though...

Tarkin (video codec) uses Wavelet compression whereas MPEG uses block-based. The project has only just started, and now that Theora is here I think Tarkin development will slow down considerably.
Which is a shame in my eyes, because I'd much rather see a matured Tarkin than a matured Theora...

Theora (video codec) is based on VP3. It's supposed to be the solution to a demand for completely free-off-charge video+audio in combination with Vorbis. I don't know very much more about this.

By MPEG4 you mean the format MP4. There could be some confusion as the compression standard is also named MPEG4.

VP5 (video codec) is not the little brother of VP3, it's the big brother! VP3 is an infant compared to the (supposed) quality of VP5. I don't believe it's available as of yet.

MCF is a container format just like AVI and Ogg, XCD is a means of storing data on a CD, which can be in any container.

[Koepi]

But MCF-CD is something like XCD ;)

hehehe, SCNR :)

Regards,
Koepi

[TetarZ]

I guess you are right for MP4 and Mpeg4(god that can be confusing)
As for VP5 according to the site it's out and by little brother I ment successor. As for performance if we beleive the site it's incredibly better then was VP3.

P.S.:I'd like to remind that I'm a novice so I do confused on technical points (Wavelet compression????:confused: ) and exact term.
Sorry for messing up everything

[Acaila]

@Koepi:
That's true. Just tells us again how critical syntax is :)

@TetarZ:
Sorry, I misunderstood your use of "little bother".

I don't know very much about wavelets either, except that it's a different means of compression, not using macroblocks and (I)DCT like MPEG does, but compressing the entire frame at once. Low quality MPEG gives macroblock artifacts, low quality Wavelet gives a blur over the picture but no artifacts.
I'd be very interested in seeing what an advanced Wavelet codec can do, so that's why I want to see Tarkin matured instead of Theora (we've already got so many block-based codecs).

[TetarZ]

I know the project forked and I think it's a shame(well we now have two standards that bring us just about the same thing and twice as less devellopers working on each of them).
But I guess there where some good reasons to fork.
I only hope they will merge one day,and we will get the best of both of them in one project...
(One is always allowrd to dream...)

[Koepi]

Sorry, nope, I have a patent on dreaming, please use this account for the money transfer:
... ;)

Regards,
Koepi

P.S.: how you can explain the stupidity of software patents with a real banal example... and just fell over it by accident ;)

[Tommy Carrot]

If you wanna see a working wavelet codec, you should try the one on http://rududu.ifrance.com/rududu/indexen.htm

It's definetaly inferior to the mpeg4 codecs, and the author(s) do not respond(s) to the mails, and even there was no changes since the middle of july, but it's wavelet. And working. :D

I think it has some possibilities to improve, but the yet the artifacts are hardly bearable. :o

[TetarZ]

I didn't have time to test it though.
Clearly it won't be a top of the notch codec.
The web page states that it's a simple codec and the web page in itself is quit simple (and non-pro looking).
Remember how bad MPEG1 is.
And that's an algorythme that has had lot of work done on it before releasing.
So I would say let's not rull out wavelets yet :eek: .

[TetarZ]

Sorry I got messed up.

Theora uses VP3.

Tarkin is the wavelet codec.

Well I still wonder for Theora though: It uses VP3.VP5 is out and supposed to be much better.Either there will be some major devellopement on this point or Theora will be outdated befor evn it's out...
If I have time before going on vacation(Saterday) I'll try VP3,VP5 and Tarkin.
Expect more Insights soon.

[TetarZ]

Yeah I keep on answering to myself....
VP5 is all about streaming:Only CBR.
“We find it interesting that our competitors post their high data rate products as downloads and not as streamed files. In fact, they sometimes allow the data rate to fluctuate to maintain quality on difficult scenes. Downloading proves almost nothing about quality at varying data rates. Streaming is walking the high wire without a net.”
And we can wonder how great the encoder will be.It seems optimized for real time.
Not really what we are interested in.
(And again RP9 is also designed for streaming and it works out OK)

[Palikrovol]

Hello.
i'm a bit confused about some terms.

What is the difference between MP4 and MPEG4 (sometimes i see they are used for the same thing :confused: )

MP4 is used for streaming?

DivX is an enhenced mpeg4 codec? I have read divx, xvid, ... are based on mpeg4.

Microsoft mpeg-4 (mp41, mp42, mp43) are different version of mp4 and therefor for the same porpose or in the contrary are like divx, xvid, ...

I also have read that in mp4 is used the aac audio codec (this aac can be used to any other thing)

And the vp3 is a codec for streaming like mp4? are they in the same group as divX and Xvid are in the same gruop? (i mean, are they used for the same porpose?)

As you can see i'm a bit confused with all this things :)

I think there are many people with the same confusing problems, so maybe is a good idea to make a faq or a sticky thread explaining this terms (could also be included in this thread the differences between ogg vorbis, the ogg container, ogm , etc. Many people think ogg and vorbis is the same thing. When i began with this terms i thought the same, and really understood it after many thread reads and web exploring). There was a thread about the naming of files, ogg vs ogm time ago and i think there was proposed a thread explaining the differences but don't now how it ended

[Palikrovol]

Hi again.

I have noticed that my last post could be in the first thread (sorry) :)

Please, could a moderator or administrator move it?
and answer? :)

Thanx

[DeXT]

@Palikrovol:

MP4 is the ISO file format, MPEG-4 is a generic term, usually referring to the video format (and so the CODEC).

MP4 supports both streaming and local storage.

DivX and XviD are not enhanced MPEG-4 but just MPEG-4 compatible formats. They are implementations of MPEG-4 CODECs.

Microsoft MPEG-4 (and so the old DivX 3.x) is not MPEG-4 compatible, but a crippled format based on that. It was launched before MPEG-4 specs were finished.

AAC audio is part of MPEG-4 Audio and can be used either in MP4 files or standalone. You currently cannot use it in AVI (or other media formats) just because no ACM CODEC/DirectShow filter is available for it.

[Palikrovol]

Thanx a lot.