DV-Avi-Files results in choppy svcd's

[Frank_IX]

Hi Folks,

following problem:

I want to convert my DV-Tape-Recordings (Sony-camcorder) to SVCDs. I capture with Premiere, the load the Avi-File in dvd2svcd. The systems works after installing the canopus dv-codecs (links in application are wrong !!).

But the result is unusable. choppy and flickery, ragged edges and so on.

Are there known solutions? Has it something to do with field order? DV-Avi, I think, is always lower field first. And so I justified dvd2svcd from automatic to lff. But the result was the same.

Thx for help.

Greetings, Frank_IX :confused:

[UltimateDBZ]

Try using SeparateFields/SelectEvery as your deinterlacing method, my mind may be playing tricks on me (early in the morning here ;)), but I believe I remember reading somewhere that it solved a similar situation.

[Frank_IX]

Originally posted by UltimateDBZ
Try using SeparateFields/SelectEvery as your deinterlacing method, my mind may be playing tricks on me (early in the morning here ;)), but I believe I remember reading somewhere that it solved a similar situation.

The point is, that normally i don't have to deinterlace interlaced material to watch it on TV-Screen. But thats only my opinion. Maybe its wrong.

Thx for help.

[UltimateDBZ]

Whether it helps with this situation or not, it's a good idea to deinterlace any interlaced source just because of the quality rise it produces. Sure you don't have to, but it certainly makes it look better on the computer screen or on a high-definition tv.

[Labersack]

I don't deinterlace if I don't want to watch the movie on PC. Deinterlacing always reduces quality.

[Frank_IX]

Now we have 2 opinions regarding deinterlacing. Thats fine.

But my problem is that the svcd-stream looks choppy. What can i do to solve this problem?

Thx.

[Labersack]

Try a short chapter with both settings in encoder tab: top field first and bottom field first, also try to some settings in DVD2AVI tab.
If you cut your stream to a 1 minute part, this should be done in only a few minutes.
Post your logfile, if nothing works, so we can have a look into it.

[UltimateDBZ]

Originally posted by Labersack
I don't deinterlace if I don't want to watch the movie on PC. Deinterlacing always reduces quality. How do you figure that? Take an interlaced source, for example, and just go to any random frame that has alot of motion.. it's barely viewable at all. Then deinterlace with Telecide, and it's perfectly legible/viewable. IMO, that's quite a bit better quality.

[paul8883]

Hey Frank_IX, I don't know if it can help you, try to increase the max bitrate and/or lower down the resolution (i.e. cvd resolution 352x576 instead of 480x576). I always use cvd resolution to convert dv to mpeg2(cvd) with max bitrate arround 2500-2600 kbps. in one pass vbr I use q=7 in cce, in multipasses I use average bitrate never less than 1800 kbps.
I think dv avi is always bottom field first.

[Labersack]

@ultimate
You're right if you watch a single frame. But I don't watch single frames but moving pictures. And in this case you won't notice any of this 'movements' at all. (On TV, on PC it's anothere subject)
Any deinterlacing method will do some quality loss.
Do a comparison of two short movie parts and not still pictures and you will see.

[UltimateDBZ]

I realize that, which is why I originally said "Sure you don't have to, but it certainly makes it look better on the computer screen or on a high-definition tv." Obviously, deinterlacing and then going to an all-analog source, like a stanard CRT TV, won't have any quality benefits, I'm talking about hi-res stuff. Personally, I'd rather deinterlace anyway just to have it done, so should I watch it on a computer, I get that added quality.

[Frank_IX]

O.K.

Now we know the benefits of deinterlacing.

Fact is that i want to watch the movie only on low-res TV (analog output).

I don't want to change the resolution because I think that a lower resolution results in lower quality. That seems to be obvious for me.

Any other help proposals here??

By, Frank

[mrbass]

look at "Mini DV to SVCD Guide 1.0.9b2"
http://www.mrbass.org/dvd2svcd/

[Frank_IX]

Originally posted by mrbass
look at "Mini DV to SVCD Guide 1.0.9b2"
http://www.mrbass.org/dvd2svcd/

@MRBRASS

Hey that seems to be a good and suitable guide for what i want to do. thx a lot.

I will test it during the weekend.

[Frank_IX]

Thx, but not successfull.

Not the same bad quality but nearly. Fast moving camera shots makes this. Nearly still pictures are very clear.
In another guide i found that i have to change from simple resize to bicubic. so i did so. AVI2SVCD is still working. But you will get the results tomorrow.

By ahagn (and have a good night)

Frank_IX

[Frank_IX]

ahhmm

by the way. the bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg looks great on the pc-monitor!! Only on TV-Screen it looks terrible.

[UltimateDBZ]

Then perhaps it is your standalone player. Does it have this issue with other similar conversions? Check vcdhelp.com for SVCD compatible players.

[mrbass]

I'll put up a sample in a few days hopefully so you can decide if the quality is decent or not. I think it's pretty darn good. It's not dvd quality obviously but it's pretty decent and true to the original. You transfer/captured your .avi in uncompressed format I hope?

[Frank_IX]

@ultimaDBZ

no. when ripping dvds or converting divx no problem is viewable. finest quality.

btw. its a yammi-player. not the best but i think the one which accepts the most different formats.

@mrBrass
Yes uncompressed DV-AVI (Microsoft DV codec) of type 1. Capture and work-out with Premiere 6.0.

Result of my latest try: No change. I thought already that it can not have something to do with the resizeing.

Again: On PC-Screen everything looks great. On TV the fast camera moves shows this awful stuttering effect.

[Frank_IX]

@mrbrass

Where can i get this sample you want to put up? Which size (max download speed 768 kbit !!) does the file have? Is it a bin and a cue file? That should be the best for testing i think. If the sample is Ok for me, can i get the guide of the way you made it? thx a lot for your efforts but i think i am not the only one who suffers this problem.

Greetings Frank_IX

[GreenDrazi]

Frank_IX

What exactly are the details/properties of the DV-AVI video?
NTSC DV 29.976 fps, interlaced and non-progressive, 720X480, 3.6Mbps?
When encoding "made-for-tv" DVD source material of similar quality, I always have to use IVTC to avoid Smart-deInterlace (which I think really kills the quality). Without IVTC, it looks good on the pc but bad on the TV monitor.

What bitrate are you encoding the mpeg file at?
Is this home video or professional source material?
If this is home made video, you probably have a lot of camera movement which re-sizing to SVCD standards is always going to give you problems unless you use a real high (non-compliant) bitrate. Or, you need to try another format size as mentioned earlier like an CVD, XSVCD, or VCD which will exhibit less of these problems after resize.

[Frank_IX]

Originally posted by GreenDrazi
Frank_IX

What exactly are the details/properties of the DV-AVI video?
NTSC DV 29.976 fps, interlaced and non-progressive, 720X480, 3.6Mbps?


A: Yes but PAL

Q: When encoding "made-for-tv" DVD source material of similar quality, I always have to use IVTC to avoid Smart-deInterlace (which I think really kills the quality). Without IVTC, it looks good on the pc but bad on the TV monitor.

A: I do not deinterlace. Checkbox is not checked! Will Smart-deInterlace be used though??

Q: What bitrate are you encoding the mpeg file at?

A: CBR with max bitrate less 160 kbit for sound (source is only 15 minutes). I tested also VBR at max.

Q: Is this home video or professional source material?

A: Home video.

Q: If this is home made video, you probably have a lot of camera movement which re-sizing to SVCD standards is always going to give you problems unless you use a real high (non-compliant) bitrate. Or, you need to try another format size as mentioned earlier like an CVD, XSVCD, or VCD which will exhibit less of these problems after resize.

A: Finally you say that svcd is not suitable for home video? did i get you right?

[GreenDrazi]

quote: "A: Finally you say that svcd is not suitable for home video? did i get you right?"

Well, no - I don't mean that in such simple terms.
But resizing to a 480 SVCD standard resolution from an interlaced source at 720 will often give you problems.
You can try the other formats I mentioned (CVD, XSVCD, VCD) because they either match the 720 resolution or halve the size.

However, regardless of size and format (excluding full mpeg-2 720), you will have trouble with any home video due to camera movement unless you keep the bitrate high. You didn't state the bitrate you're using - is it 2500? Try to set the maximum rate higher. You will not have a compliant SVCD, but I doubt any DVD player will have a problem with it.

What speed is you camera recording at? - Try to capture and encode at the same speed.
What resolution is the camera recording at? - Try to capture and encode at the same resloution.

[Frank_IX]

Originally posted by GreenDrazi
quote: "A: Finally you say that svcd is not suitable for home video? did i get you right?"


Well, no - I don't mean that in such simple terms.
But resizing to a 480 SVCD standard resolution from an interlaced source at 720 will often give you problems.
You can try the other formats I mentioned (CVD, XSVCD, VCD) because they either match the 720 resolution or halve the size.

O.K. Sounds understandable for me. I will try.

However, regardless of size and format (excluding full mpeg-2 720), you will have trouble with any home video due to camera movement unless you keep the bitrate high. You didn't state the bitrate you're using - is it 2500?

I stated: CBR at max. means 2756 less 160 for sound = 2596 kbit/s

Try to set the maximum rate higher. You will not have a compliant SVCD, but I doubt any DVD player will have a problem with it.
O.K. sounds also understandable. Will give second try.

What speed is you camera recording at? - Try to capture and encode at the same speed.

What do you mean with recording speed of the camera?? I have two possibilies: Longplay and shortplay. I use shortplay
Capturing also works only at the same speed the movie plays at.


What resolution is the camera recording at? - Try to capture and encode at the same resloution.

It is a DV camcorder from Sony (DCR TRV 17E). In fact i do not know the recording resolution. Capturing resolution matches DV-AVI spec at 720 x 480.

Will give the results to you. Until now. THX !!

Greetings Frank_IX

[Frank_IX]

You can try the other formats I mentioned (CVD, XSVCD, VCD) because they either match the 720 resolution or halve the size.

BTW can i use avi2svcd for this? IMHO i can not change the output format except MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 (which i think means SVCD or VCD).

[paul8883]

yes you can, go to MISC tab and select advanced DVD2SVCD level, then go to Frameserver tab and select Resieze to CVD.
The version of dvd2svcd should be the latest (1.0.9 build 3)

[Frank_IX]

Originally posted by paul8883
yes you can, go to MISC tab and select advanced DVD2SVCD level, then go to Frameserver tab and select Resieze to CVD.
The version of dvd2svcd should be the latest (1.0.9 build 3)

O.K. thx a lot. i will give a try

But in general: how can i compare this different format with svcd regarding quality? which format gives me the best?

Greetings Frank_IX

[UltimateDBZ]

Obviously, the larger resolution, the better quality. So, DVD size would be the best, followed by SVCD, and CVD would be last, as it is the smallest. But the reverse is true in amount of video that can be stored on a single CD, so you have to find a good middleground (which, in the case of using standard 700mb CDs, is usually SVCDs).

[Faceman101]

Originally posted by Frank_IX
But in general: how can i compare this different format with svcd regarding quality? which format gives me the best?

CVD and SVCD has almost exactly the same quality, they just differ by one being 1/2 D1. DVD format can give you almost a 1:1 DV look. You'd need a DVD burner, otherwise that isn't really a choice.

I think I may have a solution to your problem, give this a shot. Encode your video normally (I used CVD, I'm sure it'd work with SVCD) but once done, run pulldown on your MPV and use this command line:

pulldown.exe source.m2v target.m2v -nopulldown -tff even

I encoded one of my DV clips to CVD (NTSC) and exported to my TV, it was very rough and had stuttering action. I then ran the pulldown command and it plays smooth, perfect. No need to deinterlace. Deinterlace always drops quality. You just have to multiplex the MPV and your encoded MP2 yourself.

[Frank_IX]

@UltimateDBZ

The result from the posts before was that svcd isn't a real choice for DV source because of the resizing. proposals were cvd, vcd, xsvcd etc. regarding this matter.

@Faceman101

IMHO pulldown is only necessary for NTSC source. i have to use PAL. as a matter of fact is pulldown really a solution?

THX and Greetings - Frank_IX

[UltimateDBZ]

Originally posted by Frank_IX
The result from the posts before was that svcd isn't a real choice for DV source because of the resizing. proposals were cvd, vcd, xsvcd etc. regarding this matter.Correct, I was merely stating that SVCD is usually this middleground, however it is not in this case, which complicates things.

Good luck.

[Frank_IX]

Originally posted by UltimateDBZ
Correct, I was merely stating that SVCD is usually this middleground, however it is not in this case, which complicates things.

Good luck.

The question is which output format is the best for DV-Avi except SVCD? Can it be CVD?

Greetings Frank_IX

[paul8883]

Yes, cause CVD has lower resolution and you can feed more bits to the same image to increase the quality. The differences between CVD and SVCD in standard TV cause of the resolution is not viewable if any. It's important your dvd player can play it. The guids and discussions in vcdhelp may help you:
http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98177
http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98376

good luck

[Frank_IX]

@Paul8883

Thx. Good information.

Will try next time.

Can you tell me how much savings in File-size is the result compared with svcd?
In this way? 576 x 480 = 276480 p. frame / 352 x 480 = 168960
--> 61 % ???? That means a svcd of 800 MB size equals a cvd of 489 MB under same conditions???

Other question: Why should i use svcd (also for DVD encoding), only viewed on TV-Screen, if there is no difference in quality viewable?

Greetings Frank_IX

[paul8883]

suppose you are in PAL, the SVCD is 480x576 and CVD is 352x576. the reason to encode dv avi to CVD is normally the home video dv need much bits allocated per pixel with the same encoding bitrates. The filesize depends only on the bitrates you used to encode the video(in case of constant bitrate or multipass). Fix the bitrates, teh CVD frame has less pixels than SVCD so you can have more bits allocated to the pixel. Cause TV is interlace, and most DV is also interlace, you don't need to deinterlace to encode the materials if you are going to see it on TV. In PC you may see some interlace effet if you don't deinterlace.
Anyway the guides in vcdhelp have more details.

If you allocaed the same bits per pixel in CVD as well as SVCD (similar quality), of course you will have smaller file size. But I perfer to obtain the better quality.

[orbit-r]

hi,
are you sure you have the right fieldorder(maybe do a test with some short parts of the movie( change the fieldorder and flags with restream and burn it to a rw) ) the main reason for flickering pictur on DV-source is the wrong field order...especially when encoded with cce,cause cce gives a shit about your settings in the fieldorder tab...tmpeg is better for that...

for a relative good quality you need the half d1 resolution for dv source otherwise it will look like trash...and never go under an avg.of 2000 and 2 passes...

but i recommand tmpeg with mb1 matrice and fine tunings...

hope this helps a bit
orbit-r;)

[Faceman101]

Originally posted by Frank_IX
@Faceman101

IMHO pulldown is only necessary for NTSC source. i have to use PAL. as a matter of fact is pulldown really a solution?

THX and Greetings - Frank_IX

Yes Frank I am fully aware of your PAL source. Just give it a shot and post back, I am almost 100% sure that this will solve the problem (almost 100%? that would be 99% then right?). By using -nopulldown in the command line you are not using the pulldown option. You are just changing the field order.

pulldown.exe source.m2v target.m2v -nopulldown -tff even

Will take 2 mins to try, I hope it works.

[Frank_IX]

1. Methode of using CVD instead of SVCD is ill-fated. Seems that my standalone is not capable of playing CVD. Bad luck for me.

2. Next step will be to make these pulldown settings. @Faceman101: can you again explain how i can manage this ? THX


Greetings Frank_IX